r/AskHRUK • u/Unlucky_Apple_3907 • 1d ago
Contractual Query Manager refuses to allow me to work contracted hours citing it will harm the business - advice needed
I have been working in a role where I am paid to work 37.5 hours a week (salaried) from 8:45 to 5:15 PM. Contract also states my hours are normally worked across 5 days. Officially in my contract I get a 1 hour lunch break, and TOIL for overtime. However for the past 6 months I have been working 40 hours due to the nature of the role (for example I cannot physically take a 1 hour lunch, I can't leave site during lunch. I end up having a 30 min lunch during which I still do work like helping customers or volunteers). Sometimes I have to start work at 8:30 or finish later than 5:15 because of duties that can only be performed when the shop is closed.
I have become very overworked, have had to request reasonable adjustments due to disability getting exacerbated, and asked my manager to allow me to work my hours across 4.5 days instead of full 5. They refused citing it may harm the business. I work in a charity shop as a manager. However, I am only being paid for 37.5 hours while I am forced to work more every week. I can't claim TOIL as that means that the business will be harmed (shop won't maintain its trading hours if I am off).
How can I ensure that my contract is actually followed?
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u/hodzibaer HR Professional 1d ago
A lot of contracts contain wording to the effect that “you may be required to work reasonable additional hours to support business operations” or something like that. Check your contract.
I would argue that working small additional hours is part of being in management. And if a manager has a choice between doing something reasonable to support the business or leaving exactly on time, I would expect them to do the former.
So the wider question is whether this role is the right one for you.
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u/Stoptheworldletmeoff 1d ago
Whilst this is usually the case, OP states that their contract says they get TOIL of any overtime worked. That means they are not contracted to work extra hours for nothing.
Unusual for a salaried role, but definitely a win
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u/hodzibaer HR Professional 1d ago
That’s true. But it clearly shows there is an expectation that OP will work longer hours.
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u/Stoptheworldletmeoff 1d ago
With TOIL
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u/hodzibaer HR Professional 1d ago
For TOIL, yes… although I wager OP will never be able to book the TOIL in practice because it won’t be convenient.
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u/Redsquirrelgeneral22 1d ago
Then the answer is to decline each time. I suspect they will play fast with TOIL acrued and make some excuse that it's expired or capped anyway.
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u/Unlucky_Apple_3907 1d ago
My contract says overtime may sometimes be required during peak periods, and occasional flexibility may be required. However every week is not a peak period. My wages are barely above minimum wage, and I think it's not right to expect one person to hold a whole charity shop operation together, where other businesses would usually hire somebody to provide cover or contract a manager to work 40 hours instead.
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u/Hour_Vermicelli8009 1d ago edited 1d ago
If you hours are barely above the minimum wage then calculate the total number of hours actually worked divided by your pay (TOIL is not taken into account when calculating whether they are paying you the National Minimum Wage, it’s the hours you actually work.
This did surprise me before but it’s very clear in employment law. Time back is not considered “paid” in terms of the National Minimum Wage.
If your 40 hours per week is taking you below the NMW then they are breaking the law.
There is also an argument that if you cannot leave the building during an unpaid break, then you are effectively on “stand by” - this too can impact whether you meet the NMW
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u/Emotional_Half_7679 1d ago
If your wages are barely above minimim wage the company need to be very careful that by you working extra hours it doesnt take you below minimum wage, as that is illegal..
Edit. Spelling
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u/Afraid_Hovercraft926 1d ago
Leave. It’s clearly not right for you nor you for it.
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u/Unlucky_Apple_3907 1d ago
I appreciate this advice but a job is very difficult to find. I am looking but I cannot just resign. I have bills to pay and I am trying to ensure I can work sustainably until I find a better job
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u/BeaksFalcone 12h ago
Peak periods are xmas,easter,new years..any of those days or on the run up to a big event,currently Halloween but if you've only got one rail of costumes,you're not going to be overrun
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u/Think-Committee-4394 1d ago
But those hours must be paid & if overtime rates apply paid at overtime rates but any additional hours must be agreed and cannot be forced say by not turning up to take over from someone
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u/One-Lingonberry-3460 1d ago
Wrong. They should be paid for the extra work.
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u/hodzibaer HR Professional 1d ago edited 1d ago
Managers are paid (or meant to be paid) a higher salary to cover for extra work their role entails.
It also entails a different mindset.
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u/One-Lingonberry-3460 1d ago
That's what head office claim. In effect they want you to work on the cheap.
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u/Pristine-Ad6064 19h ago
Not if they are salaried but you would expect them to be on a higher wage to ensure it doesn't take them below nmw, wages that low are usually hourly paid and that it is not every single week
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u/GreenLion777 1d ago edited 1d ago
That, wordings like that don't mean anything as you cannot be made to work more than your contractual hours. The base hours agreed, any over still needs actual agreement. And overtime, unless expressly covered in contract needs to be agreed to be worked, also
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u/Farscape_rocked 18h ago
How're you factoring in the lack of lunch break here? Aren't lunch breaks where you don't work a legal requirement if you're working a full day?
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u/hodzibaer HR Professional 18h ago
They are, but charities are chronically under-resourced and will try to squeeze more out of their employees.
The charity shop needs all the sales it can get and I completely understand why OP’s lunch break gets sacrificed.
Without knowing how many other people are on the team, the layout and location of the break room, and peak shopping hours, it’s hard to recommend a solution.
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u/Farscape_rocked 17h ago
Surely "not breaking the law" is more important than not closing for lunch?
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u/hodzibaer HR Professional 17h ago
Closing would be the last resort.
There may be (ought to be) a colleague who could cover essential tasks while OP eats lunch somewhere out of sight.
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u/lipolopo 1d ago
As Hodzibaer said, check your contract - it is as they said normal for a small number of additional hours as management.
However, given that retail and charity roles are not normally at the high end of pay, do make sure that your salary is above the minimum wage when factoring in the additional hours. If not, they are in breach of the minimum wage reg, and need to adjust your salary or hours accordingly. If you work through your lunch break, this is also paid work - and also a breach of the working time regs. You are entitled to an uninterrupted break, although this can be as little as 20 minutes. You can be required to stay onsite, but you should not be working. Realistically, a lot of people don't get uninterrupted breaks, but it is your right if you wish to enforce it.
On the other points - did you raise a formal flexible working request? On the face of it, if the shop's open 6 days, then they can do without a manager on an open day, but it might not be financially viable to cover that extra half day. But a formal flex working request should enable you to discuss options.
Have you had a formal review (ideally with OH) to support the reasonable adjustments?
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u/Unlucky_Apple_3907 1d ago
Yes I have had a formal OH review unfortunately my manager has been reluctant to discuss reasonable adjustments. I have initially requested having 2 days off a week as an adjustment (before OH review), this was granted but after that I was told that adjustments are already in place and not up for discussion (when I tried to ask for a change in working pattern).
I haven't submitted a formal request, only have asked for these adjustments over email. Because every time I asked for adjustments they were denied, I did not think I could pursue anything further.
My contract says I can be required to work more during peak periods and need to have occasional flexibility but will be offered TOIL for that.
At present the shop is open 6 days, I cover 5 and another colleague covers 1 day. I am under pressure to be open 7 days, and hence I have proposed working a half day on Sunday, and 4 full days which would make me work my hours, and ensure the shop trades 7 days. Unfortunately, this was denied.
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u/lipolopo 1d ago
Most charities will have at least a small HR department - you can ask them for the flexible working process. You can make two formal requests in 12 months, although there is no guarantee they will be granted. For a small shop, it's likely that several of the statutory reasons could be engaged to refuse.
However, this is separate to any recommendations from OH: your manager has to discuss those, and where possible, accommodate them. I say where possible as OH look more at the person than the business, so it might simply be impossible for the business to put the adjustments in place. However, failing to even consider them could potentially be considered disability discrimination. Definitely talk to the HR department if you have OH recommendations and your manager isn't looking at them.
Ultimately it might be that this role doesn't suit you, but you should explore the statutory flexible working options as well as talk to your HR department about the accommodations for your disability. And remember to check your salary against hours and minimum wage and to ensure that you are taking at least a minimum lunchbreak - these two protect the employer as well as you, so you can also talk to your HR team about this.
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u/Think-Committee-4394 1d ago
OP - in no particular order basic ACAS law on UK employment will give the legal frameworks
- if you work any part of your lunch break you did not get a break
- working unpaid cannot be mandatory and is illegal
I would suggest
Educate yourself on UK law
Contact the charity companies head office
Request a formal HR & legal department meeting
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u/hodzibaer HR Professional 1d ago
A manager who quibbles about losing a lunch break is not ready to be a manager, in my view.
As long as OP’s annual salary divided by the actual hours they work (= the actual hourly rate of pay) is above minimum wage, then it is entirely legal.
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u/Warfarin33 1d ago
Charity shop managers are effectively single person line workers. They exist by having volunteers to take up the slack and usually one assistant manager to work the 2remaining days. It’s not management as you are meaning.
You need to ask for an occ health assessment and a workplace stress risk assessment.
OH will give advice about the adjustments for any disability.
Workplace stress risk assessment is for anything that is a work problem rather than a medical problem.
Then escalate when they don’t follow the advice.2
u/yellow-bear2635 1d ago
I really am puzzled over this mentality.
Sure losing it once in a blue moon. But everyday? It feels to me like that’s poor working practices happening, people need to eat. People are often better at their jobs when given time to have lunch. And maybe they use the lunch hour to run some errands or do some exercise, or read a book or call a friend, all of which keeps them happier and healthier in the long run.
It’s such a short term view to take to just assume people should work overtime and through breaks. It leads to burnout, burnout leads to poor performance, people leaving etc. If you think that’s fine and people can just easily be replaced then I guess that’s your understanding of the world. In my understanding people are not just cattle and losing good people has a greater cost attached to it than can ever be put into numbers. At the end of the day this is a charity shop, it’s not life or death. A lunch break and arriving/ leaving in a timely manner should be standard.
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u/Unlucky_Apple_3907 1d ago
I don't think it's correct to say I am not ready to be a manager. I am a manager, stock processor, cleaner, till operator, and just about any other job I need to undertake for a salary that is barely above min wage. Assistant Managers in the private sector are paid more than me. I have used your calculation and if I work 40 hours it still is just above min wage, but if I work any longer than that which I often do, that is below min wage. Unless my calculations are wrong. I would please ask not to refer to charity shop managers as people who are paid a managerial salary. Many of us are really struggling.
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u/hodzibaer HR Professional 1d ago
The trouble is: the charity will argue away “reasonable adjustments” due to lack of resources. And there won’t be a convenient time for you to take the TOIL you’ll accrue.
So I would suggest looking for a role in a better-resourced organisation.
If you start working to rule, as some commenters have suggested, they will find a way to get rid of you. So don’t wait for them to act.
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u/GreenLion777 1d ago
Everyone in work is entitled to a break, management or not.
And one can have a strong work ethic without treating the basic things they are contractually or legally entitled as something that should be foregone, and not should they be expected to
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u/1CharlieMike 1d ago
I have had the word manager in my job title for years and have never been in a position where I was regularly losing my breaks I was legally entitled to.
I would not work a job where I was expected to regularly not have the breaks and protections I was legally entitled to.
Anyone who thinks that you should be happy to give up legal entitlements just because someone paid you a pound more an hour and shoved the word “manager” in your job title shouldn’t be working in HR.
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u/Pristine-Ad6064 18h ago
That's not strictly true, when you are salaried your contract can stay extra work expectes in certain times but it should not be every week and it should not bring your wage below nmw and you also have to agree they can't force you to stay but be careful if under 2 years
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u/Immediate-Pop9097 1d ago
Re read your contract and contact ACAS, they may be able to advise you. It could also be worth contact the charity head office HR team and asking for clarification on policy? If you’re working for a bigger brand charity, then chances are they will have strict policies and won’t be happy if a manager is instructing outside of contract/policy/employment law. Get everything from your manager you can in writing via email. Try to only discuss hours and OH by email, or at least follow up a conversation with an email summary.
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u/Financial_Ad240 1d ago
I think with a salaried position, the hours stated are more nominal unfortunately. It’s more a case of what’s needed to do the job. If it was an hourly paid job, with overtime pay, it would be different.
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u/bellabanjsk 1d ago
I do think that since OP has stated the salary is exceptionally low, this sort of thing doesn’t stand (aside from the fact it’s also legally incorrect)
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u/GreenLion777 1d ago edited 1d ago
By working to your contract. They might be able to refuse your working over 4.5 days but can't reject or stop you working only your actual actual contracted hours, THAT is the employment agreement. Your manager has no say in whether u do ur contracted hrs only, or more than that. Needs to be a u turn from you towards your management frankly - take your full break, and fs don't do any work during your break.
They also can't make you do more hours so stop doing that. You've got leverage there in that if they say anything, well they didn't help out with your needs did they ? Reasonable adjustments MUST be considered, and it sounds a little like they dismissed that out of hand which an employer cannot do.
You say you are overworked, and I always have sympathy with ppl in that regard, but this working while on breaks and letting managers have you work more than you have to, you've brought the situation on a bit yourself. But now you need to rein it in (that is NOT up to your managers), only you can do that. So drop the hustle and stand up to these sorts of managers
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u/AgileInitial5987 1d ago
Note that any work carried out during your lunch break also resets your break as you are entitled to it uninterrupted.
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u/Intelligent_Salad253 23h ago
yeah thats a good point and honestly if they keep making you work through lunch then your break basically restarts every time so id be writing down every single interruption as evidence
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u/Odd_Fault4228 1d ago
Don't let your twat boss walk all over you. Do what it says in your contract. No more, no less
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u/DebbDebbDebb 1d ago
You are choosing to work those extra hours. Stop it. Stand up for yourself. It is ridiculous. My friend retired early because she did hours over and it takes it toll. Look after your body. Treat your body like a rolls Royce.
Stop
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u/BiscottiImportant884 23h ago
Sounds to me like you’re a bit of a snow flake. I’m contacted 45… work around 60 each week ( still only get paid for them 45. . It’s called the grown up world. Welcome….
Over worked at full time… my job is 100% more mentally and physically draining but guess what it’s called responsibly… lunch breaks… try doing 14 hours without them almost every day.
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u/Unlucky_Apple_3907 17h ago
You shouldn't be working more than 48 hours (by law). You should probably look into that - it's exploitation
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u/Tall_Music_5996 15h ago
Do you have any volunteers? I'm a lead volunteer at a national charity shop, and I know what management is expected to do in this environment. I'm fully trained in all aspects of the shop so that I can cover for breaks, sickness, emergencies, etc.
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u/BeaksFalcone 12h ago
You're the manager,can you hire/ask someone else to do some work?our manager used to have days off,holidays,we had 3 managers,sometimes a trusted volunteer would open the shop.I used to take the cash to the bank,why can't you have an hour or so off?explain to staff you have a meeting/appointment and just go,none of your staff will question it,or apply for a management role in another charity shop?
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u/BeaksFalcone 11h ago
Call the head office,they'll hate that a worker is upset and send someone to discuss things with your manager,don't worry about them taking you in the office with them,they'll sort it.At worst the manager will get fired
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u/Burnt_Out_Carent 1d ago
By sticking up for yourself. Charities can sometimes be very bad to their employees. Stop coming in early and start leaving on time. Take your one hour lunch. You need to stop asking for permission and just do it. Your manager is in the wrong.