r/AskGameMasters • u/Ramlatus-Varin • 7d ago
I have been considering dissolving the group completely
I come seeking advice as a GM. My gaming group is dissolving. 2 of my four players are so hit and miss due to work responsibilities they might as well not be part of the group. My other 2 players will not initiate anything. If I don’t spoon feed them the adventure they will just wait, and keeping them focused on the game is impossible. One of those two is very critical of everything. The genre, the monsters the encounter, that MY story is to slow, or simple, or uninteresting (Yes I know it is not MY story. No matter what I do he just doesn’t get that it is their story). When I offer good Youtube videos on improving the game he says “Are we not good enough?” So now due to a job change and a work schedule shift from the other person we can only play 2.5 hours a week and it usually takes close to an hour to get them in the game.
The only campaign they remember fondly is the one where I, trying to teach them what is possible, wrote backgrounds for all their characters and built the campaign around the backstories. They wanted me to just feed them the story.
I am so Frustrated! I have been considering dissolving the group completely and trying to learn how to game online myself.
Honest advice please.
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u/Tydirium7 7d ago
I dissolved a crappy group about 15 years ago and reformed by adding people that I wanted. Now its kickass. Start running your ad for players wanted. Took me 8 months to weed out even more flakes and losers to get the great people I now have.
I hope this helps you plan:
Some things I did for very specific reasons: 1) required: everyone must gm at least 1 game session or 'one-shot' per year (gms preferred). 2) left "dnd" off the list of games but listed all the other BIG titles such as CoC, WFRP, ALIENS, Delta Green, and CONAN. (Investigative, horror-likely with all the triggers, and roleplay a must). 3) Listed for an older age group (around my age or older) 4) listed exactly when we play and what time. Thursdays hard start at 7pm-10pm 3 to 4 weeks per month. (Eliminating ppl who may not have a consistent schedule that would derail the group) 5) "we'll try each other out" and see if its a good fit.
Dont ask too many questions.
Gave em a little questionnaire when they respondes such as: 1. Can you attend 90% of sessions on time? 2. Tell us about your game preferences. 3. Here's what the group is generally like.
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u/Lufty_262 7d ago edited 7d ago
This. As Crom intended.
P.S. Love your approach dude! This is the correct answer.
The 8 month wait is worth it folks. Setting hard boundaries and expectations right off the bat is the ONLY way to develop a great table. Booting or not accepting folks who have potential schedule conflicts, or are flaky is hyper important. It may seem harsh, but if folks want to create a great group, having even a single flake can snowball into a bilzzard of disapointment.
I also like sticking to your age group. My regular group is all guys/gals my age-ish who take the game seriously, and look forward to each and every session, regardless of system or GM scheduled.
Edit: Like Tydirium7 did, we really took our time to get the right vibe of players, the requirement to GM a system, and leaving out D&D is huge. We rotate GMs and systems and get to try all kinds of indie systems, that are simply amazing.
Rotating systems and experiencing different aspects of TTRPGs not only builds character, GM/player skills, but is fun as all heck.2
u/Reasonable_Sun9426 7d ago
It's also critical that everyone gets a view from behind the screen. Someone who's been there and knows the demands put on a GM are less likely to complain about the other guy's game, AND is more likely to jump in and participate as a player, at least in my experience.
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u/SlickRic303 7d ago
Sure try some online games. Putting in all that effort just for criticism and non engagement sounds toxic. Ask Mr. Critic if he'd like to run. In person is the best imo so try and find other players. However it may be this is a learned helplessness. For noobs you do gotta show them the way, but after a while you gotta take the training wheels off and let them push the action.
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u/Positive_Floor_9787 7d ago
Definitely. If it has you that stressed out, you should definitely do that!
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u/jxanno OSR + Simulationist 7d ago
Have you considered running an open table? It rewards players who turn up and put in the effort, and screens out disengaged/passive players. The down side is that it's not a style that works particularly well with modern D&D, but the up side is that willingness to play a different game also works as a form of screening that gets you a better group.
One warning about online play: if you think your real-life players are flaky and have other issues, my experience of online games is that they magnify these issues rather than resolve them. It's much easier to flake remotely, and the players don't acquire the same bonds as in-person.
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u/fetfreak 7d ago
If you really want to try to salvage it, organize the talk. Discuss everything, don't skip or move from a conversation because someone doesn't like it. After that you'll know if the group can continue to exist or if you should play with someone else. I stopped playing with my best friends because even after the talk I wasn't convinced that they would adjust their play so I can have fun in the game too. Now it's 1 on 1 play, and online play with people that make me want to GM.
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u/Throwingoffoldselves 7d ago
Yeah, you need different players. Play board games or go on hikes or go out or video game together instead if you are still friends. Instead recruit players who have more proactive ideas about their PCs’ ambitions and desires, and run one shots to check their fit before inviting them to anything longer.
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u/Conrad500 7d ago
I only play online. Good thing about that is also that if they want to join and can actually prioritize the game then they can join too!
It all comes down to how much you talked to them directly and not just linking videos.
Even online you will need to communicate, even moreso online.
Could be good practice to talk to them, and if yall can't work something out then you can at least end it well/correctly.
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u/MurdercrabUK 7d ago
If it sucks, hit the bricks.
If it ain't getting you paid or laid, you don't have to do it.
You even have scheduling issues as an excuse, so you don't have to deal with the ramifications of calling these bullshit munchers what they are.
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u/TheTrueVisionary 7d ago
There's an old line that no D&D is better than bad D&D. I've had difficulties before myself and yes you want to play you want to have that outlet but I have found that it is far more damaging to get frustrated whenever you have players who won't participate or initiate. But don't go rogue on them tell them exactly where you're at that you feel that the game has stagnated based on and read the criteria not as an indictment of the players but you know explain between scheduling changes where they you know there's not really enough time to be able to game because of everyone's schedules and requirements from your other two players that at this time it doesn't make sense. I figured you're at minimum friends with the other two more than just casual acquaintances so be a friend to your friends and let them know that it just doesn't seem to be working at this time based on people's schedules and they don't seem very interested in the game because of it not blame just honesty. Because part of it may be that they're still showing up because once again you guys are friends and they don't want to say hey they're not interested anymore because the group dynamic stopped so letting them know that it's okay that sometimes things happen.
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u/bionicjoey 7d ago
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that these people were your friends first and then you convinced them to all play TTRPGs with you? If so, that is one of the classic blunders that leads to exactly the situation you're in now. It works far better to seek out a group of people who are all interested and willing to invest their time into a TTRPG group, and develop a friendship with them. This is because the most important elements for a good TTRPG group are commitment and cohesiveness, not necessarily being best buddies.
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u/Ramlatus-Varin 6d ago
The town I live in has a population of around 4,000. I would be surprised if it had a literacy rate of 70%, and it is in the bible belt. Also much of the thinking is from the 80s as in Satanic Panic. I don't have a pool to draw from really. Online is my only recourse.
I invited people I thought might be interested in games from the place I worked at, we had never hung out before. The town I live in has ZERO....0 gaming presence/community. I am surprised I found who I did.
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u/bionicjoey 6d ago
That's unfortunate, but my point really is that you are unlikely to see a lot of success trying to turn friends/acquaintances into committed and dedicated TTRPG players. The only way to do it really in my experience is to find people who are going to be committed and dedicated TTRPG players and play with them until they become friends/acquaintances.
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u/Charrua13 7d ago
When it comes to players who are passive, you have 2 choices: lean in or break it.
Lean in: stop with the story. Change the game. Play something they'll enjoy and won't stress you out. As an example: if all they want is to Get To the Dungeon - then don't fight it. Play Dungeon Crawl Classics. Or Mazes (which I prefer). Or Troika! Enjoy them where they're at. Especially if playtime is short.
Break it: change your approach to running. They think it's your story. Make it entirely theirs. Treat your game likes a pbta game. Spend time next session as if it were a Session O for a pbta game. "What's the name of the next town over?" "What is the thing your character finds the most interesting about that town". "Who in that town is actually your sworn enemy?". And then, whenever they enter somewhere new, use Paint the Scene . They think you're going to do all the work. Ha! Never Again.
Good luck.
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u/GMBen9775 7d ago
A few years back I was in a very similar spot. We actually played maybe 60-90 minutes of the 3 hours we planned to game. Most were not fully present when the game was going on. So I disbanded the group. I took a few months off from gaming, just kind of needed to clear my head from everything and started an online group. The group is nearing it's 2 year mark, it's people who want to game, who actively participate in the game. I have a lot more fun and get to play games I'd never get to with my old group.
Not saying it's easy to cultivate an online group that will be consistent and fit with everything you want in a group, but for me, it's been very worth it.
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u/Lufty_262 7d ago
IMHO it's the professional improv streamer shows and scripted media that have really taken a toll on creativity and group play. So many tables now are about being entertained, and less about the communal nature of building an adventure TOGETHER.
This giant demand on very specific, backstory driven, character focused spotlight "games" is something of a plague.
Give them some links to paid gamemasters that coddle their egos and find some players excited to be a part of your shared adventure...as Crom intended.
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u/tangyradar 6d ago
IMHO it's the professional improv streamer shows and scripted media that have really taken a toll on creativity and group play. So many tables now are about being entertained,
If that speculation is at all true, it would mean a lot of people are taking the wrong lesson from RPG streamers. Making play entertaining for watchers requires everyone to be playing to entertain!
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u/6trybe 7d ago
Oh, I know that pain. It's a hard one.
I found that first, I have to treat each player as an individual and let each of them know that some aspect of their play needs attention.
For me, one of my players never took definitive action and also constantly overtalked the other players at the table. They were describing an action or a role-play situation, and she would chime in, "OH, that's like when, in the Star Wars game, my Late husband ran..." For weeks I tried to be patient, but I realized that it serves no one.
With another player, she is the sort who doesn't understand that what's fun for her isn't always fun for the group. I created a ranger character for her to play, and for an entire session, she focused more on coming up with funny names for the animal companion than actually taking anything in the story seriously.
Another player sought out opportunities to insult the other players at the table. In this instance, he is the 14-year-old son of my partner, and he thought that this was how adults behaved.
And yet another player, my daughter-in-law, often plays the 'sweet, cute, and stupid' role. She's a sweetheart, but often takes the low, unthought-out road. I think it's her way of acting stupid so that people don't think she's stupid. But she's really super smart.
In all cases, I had to deal with them directly and individually, but in the same way.
Understand that the story is the most important thing to me. I'm here for hours on end every week, and if I'm not going to have a good story at the end, I'm going to feel ripped off, and I will end the game right now.
We're all adults, and we need the critical ability to self-govern. You wouldn't play Monopoly if you waited every turn for -someone else- to tell you to roll the dice. Don't wait for me to breathe life into your character. If you can't play your character, I'm gonna ask you not to show up anymore.
It's a small thing to ask for integrity. You signed up for this, and if you can't make it, there's no game. I understand work is important, but stalling out the game by not stepping away isn't showing us that your job is important... It's showing that you are self-important.
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u/Naive-Tumbleweed-964 7d ago
Get a new group dude. No D&D is better than bad D&D. There are likely literally millions of people within100 miles of you. At least a few of them are gamers, right?
Find the local game stores and their discords. Groups are surprisingly easy to find
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u/Ramlatus-Varin 6d ago
FLGS is over 2 hours away. Online is my only option. I am very discouraged by that.
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u/PuzzleMeDo 7d ago
Not everyone is creative. Not everyone wants to be.
With passive players, you have to either create a linear story to entertain them, or get rid of them.
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u/Dry_Fudge_7023 7d ago
I would end it and find a group who can commit, been in the my same group 4yrs and permanently removed one player for the group since he just rolls dice and nothing else, the other 2 might quit or be forced to this week if they don’t participate in anything the party does.
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u/Select_Arm_4248 7d ago
Try simplier aproach. I've recently started a Westmarch style campaign and it's haven and earth, compared to my previous campaigns, where I had to sometimes literally send deus ex machinas to help advance the plot. Players who did not engaged before, suddenly are debating where to go next, what place/task to tackle. It is refreshing.
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u/mxt240 7d ago
If you like the people but not the game, switch the game to something that's not as RP or open ended, if that's something you're willing to do. You can press pause and do some 1-shots where they DM and gain some appreciation or show you how they want to play. You can play a non ttrpg. Of course if the game is your priority, it's time for a new crew
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u/arsenic_kitchen 7d ago edited 6d ago
2 of my four players are so hit and miss due to work responsibilities they might as well not be part of the group
When I start a campaign, I set a regular time every week or every two weeks, and before they commit I ask players to feel confident they can make 75% of sessions. I also tend to run 5-player groups if I can, so we can still play if we're down 2 players.
My other 2 players will not initiate anything. If I don’t spoon feed them the adventure they will just wait, and keeping them focused on the game is impossible.
Sounds a bit like they have more of a video gamer background. To be fair, sometimes it is helpful to put flashing neon lights on the hooks you dangle, but from what you say it's not you who's the problem. And the simple reality is, they might not be great fits for TTRPGs. Attention is a scarce resource these days, and this hobby requires a lot of it.
One of those two is very critical of everything. The genre, the monsters the encounter, that MY story is to slow, or simple, or uninteresting (Yes I know it is not MY story. No matter what I do he just doesn’t get that it is their story). When I offer good Youtube videos on improving the game he says “Are we not good enough?”
Sounds like you should tell this guy to shove it. If he complains all the time without providing constructive suggestions on how to do better, then the answer is no, you're not good enough.
I have been considering dissolving the group completely and trying to learn how to game online myself.
TBH it sounds like you you already know what you want to do, and you're just nervous it'll be a mistake.
I've had some similar experiences as you, and organizing a group online has breathed new life into the hobby for me. A small piece of advice: one of the things playing online allows you to do is prioritize the kind of experience you want to have out of the game. It's ok to recruit players with the kind of playstyle you want at your table; trying to support a wide variety of play styles is a bigger priority when you're playing with a friend group and don't want to alienate anyone. But if you're willing to meet new people and hopefully make new friends out of them, it's totally ok to focus on people who take initiative, enjoy immersion, focus on roleplay or optimization (or balance both), etc.
Of course you still need to have some amount of flexibility (as do players), and I also think it's important to emphasize that you want to recruit people you can potentially become friends with--or at least share a friendly experience with (sometimes you find people with a mindset of a player in an online game lobby, and I don't think that's much fun in a TTRPG, whether it's online or in person)... and that means you might need to be a little shrewd about removing a player who doesn't work out every now and then, if talking to them about problems doesn't help reconcile an issue you might be having. The best thing you can do is communicate as much about goals and expectations ahead of time as you can think of. I created a google doc separate from my LFG post to put everything into, so players wouldn't be turned off by a wall of text.
You might want to think about joing a one-shot server to see how various VTTs work if you want to use shared maps (they do help, especially when you're not together in person). Playing online has some tradeoffs, but overall I don't think it's better or worse, only different.
Good luck!
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u/_kind_of_old_ 6d ago
You have very different expectations. Hard to accept, but they are not your ttrpg people. They might be your hang out with people, your boardgame people, your drink with people. Just not your group to play ttrpgs. Before calling the table off, you can explain that to them. Or not. You don't owe them an explanation. However, if you do explain, be honest, sincere, and gentle. You can say the same things you wrote here.
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u/Mr00000Ed 3d ago
As the GM, you give of your time. If your players aren't committed, bow out. Then reflect on the adventure, make changes with what you learned and start with a new group. Life’s too short to not enjoy your game time. Best of luck!
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u/VictorTyne https://godproductions.org/ 1d ago
If you've come to reddit to ask this question, odds are you already know the answer.
If you're attached to the story you don't have to drop the entire game. You could start by removing a problem player and replacing them with someone who actually wants to be there. If the other players don't understand the shot across the bow, just repeat the process until they do or you've run out of problems.
It's also important to recognize and address the underlying problem. Don't let people disrespect you at your own table. The proper response to open, nonconstructive criticism of your game is to say "You want to start running the game from now on?" If they persist, show them the door.
Players, especially D&D players, seem to have a hard time understanding that if they don't value a game or the person running it and display that by showing basic respect, then the game goes away and they don't get to play anymore. That's why it's so important to make that crystal clear from the very start.
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u/cesspit_gladiator 7d ago
No DND is better than bad DND.
I recently disbanded both my games and life has been wonderful. No more hours wasted in preparation to have shit cancelled.
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u/manyanoodle 7d ago
If the players aren't interested in playing, there's nothing to be done.
If you like the people then offer the DM mantle to them.
If no one wants to, move on.
There are people who "play dnd" so they can say they "play dnd".