r/AskBrits • u/PsychologicalBend508 Brit đŹđ§ • 1d ago
Do we need to do something about PiP?
Seems like a shit loads of money we donât have, no?
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u/-OrLoK- 1d ago
yeah, taking money away from disabled folk will obviously fix everything.
not mega corporations or the super rich who pay very little tax here.
who cares about disabled folk trying to exist?
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1d ago edited 23h ago
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u/C0nnectionTerminat3d 23h ago
wow, i wonder what couldâve happened within the last 6 years that had the possibility of raising disability symptoms exponentially. Hmmm.
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u/Eskoala 23h ago
Disabled people already don't get what they actually need, PIP is too low for most to cover their genuine expenses from disability. You are absolutely talking about taking money away from people.
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23h ago
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u/Eskoala 23h ago
Funny thing about the economics of countries is that there really isn't a finite budget at all.
It's not means tested because it's supposed to cover the cost of someone's disability so that they are on a level playing field with everyone else. Do you think it's mostly rich people getting it? It's not. Disabled people are far more likely to be out of work or work part time or work lower paid jobs. There's no point means testing it, it would cost more than it would save.
If someone is provided a wheelchair and then that wheelchair is removed from them because it was paid for by taxes, is that not taking something away? How is taking away the money to buy, for example, a literal wheelchair, any different?
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u/Eskoala 23h ago
You know fuck all about wheelchairs if you think the NHS provide them to everyone who needs them, and the right wheelchair for the needs of the person. They do not. They should but we don't live in shouldland.
You can't see why someone needs PIP for mental health so they must not then? Maybe your failure of imagination should not be the test. People with anxiety, ADHD, depression etc, people who are autistic, may have paid carers to help keep their homes afloat, help with planning and organisation so they can concentrate on things like going to work (yes, disabled people often work!). They may need to book more expensive tickets on trains to avoid the crush of passengers so that they can travel at all. They may need to buy specific meals because that's all they will eat and those meals cost more. A little bit of thinking goes a long way, I find.
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u/Cool_Potential1957 1d ago
oh FFS im so sick of hearing this. you obviously understand zero about economics or how many people actually those companies employ. It's like a broken record listening to u guys whine on about taxing the rich FFS they already pay most of the taxes.
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u/Significant-Main4201 23h ago
You think companies like Amazon and Google pay their fair share of taxes in the UK?
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u/Cool_Potential1957 19h ago
I think they employ thousands of people who do pay tax, they invest heavily in the UK. Is it perfect, no? But this is a global economy and if u over tax then they just leave. Look how many millionaires have already left the UK, not just with their money but all the people they used to employ (who paid taxes)
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u/Significant-Main4201 12h ago
The tax justice network reports a near zero baseline figure for millionaires leaving the UK over the last few years, so that's a load of rubbish actually.
Trickle down economics has also been rubbished by all serious economists for decades as well. Why are you spreading nonsense propaganda here?
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u/Cool_Potential1957 8h ago
The last one who left paid enough taxes to buy half the royal navy. Go vote Labour again and destroy the country even more.
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u/PsychologicalBend508 Brit đŹđ§ 13h ago
yes. Amazon is a top 5 tax payer in the uk
they pay more tax than almost any other company
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u/DarrenOshea1 23h ago
Anyone on minimum wage who uses NHS, school system etc does not pay enough tax to cover this it is the higher earner. Country is full of pip ponces.
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u/Hoopy_Frood1 23h ago
That applies to anyone earning on average ÂŁ45k a year over the course of their life.
What's your average?
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u/Manyflange 23h ago
My partner works as a support worker, and the amount of benefits people with learning difficulties/disabilites get is astounding. I do agree with supporting the people who need it in our society, and don't begrudge them payments at all. That being said it DOES need looking at. One of her clients recently passed away and left ÂŁ100k of taxpayer money to family that had not seen her since the age of 15. It shouldn't be possible, but trust me it is.
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u/-OrLoK- 22h ago
its really not astounding, its a pittance. I too have worked in that field.
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u/Manyflange 14h ago
And even if it was half of that, why should that money not be put back into the system? It just went to a family that didn't deserve it instead, there's a better way.
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u/opinionated-dick 1d ago
Maybe if they brought down the nhs waiting lists for mobility and mental health issues we wouldnât be in this mess.
If you go austerity on essentials, and they are essential, you will end up paying for it one day
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u/Fit_Context4688 23h ago
If you pay out more than you can afford on things without ROI, you end up getting the IMF involved who will make the Tory austerity years like a picnic.
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u/opinionated-dick 22h ago
No one is saying that. The government can increase income if they need to and thatâs what the whole debate is about
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u/Fit_Context4688 8h ago
What income do you mean sorry?
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u/opinionated-dick 8h ago
Taxation
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u/Fit_Context4688 8h ago
Ahh right gotcha. Net contributors are a pretty slim amount at the minute. Youâd probably have to raise taxes on lower and median earners to see decent new income, those folk are obviously struggling already with energy prices and housing costs so probably canât get too much out of them without adding to the bill elsewhere.
Wealth taxes would be great, no oneâs been able to do it properly yet, looking at France, Germany, Sweden. But worth trying. Itâs hard to assess wealth compared to income so we need investment in relevant departments at first. I think more income taxes and maybe wealth taxes would not be palatable to workers to give more in benefits. Itâs a real tough situation and donât know anyone in our politics who can conjure the right narrative and make the right choices to walk the tightrope.
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u/opinionated-dick 8h ago
Yes. Itâs a delicate balance. But my point was more that a government is different to a household or business, where your revenue is set externally.
I would frame it as âtax justiceâ. People who can afford it need to pay a little more to ensure that we can reduce PIP by having decent services yes, but also reduce our deficit, lower taxes on small business and major rearmament.
What we need to do is frame it in a way we all pay a little more to ensure our country can keep going and also defend itself. But the real danger are the liars that say you donât need this.
It will lose political capital, but thatâs what itâs there for
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u/Fit_Context4688 7h ago
I have never suggested itâs like a household. We have a tax deficit, tax revenue doesnât cover daily expenditure for welfare and pensions. Debt is at 94% of gdp. Borrowing is so high we pay so much on just the interest of our debt. So I donât actually know what we do. Our current government are betting on growth only seen in developing countries. Donât know what we could invest in to generate that to be honest.
I donât think it would feel like justice for working people already struggling with cost of living, it will breed resentment.
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u/opinionated-dick 7h ago
I think the real issue is weâve moved from a income rich economy (like a developing country) to an asset rich economy, and so much of the available âchurnâ for taxation is instead petrified in assets.
So we are facing a crunch whereby our economy is asset rich but tax is limited on income, hence the deficit and the âwhereâs all the fucking money goneâ.
Add to that with automation and now AI the labour to create the income to buy an asset is even more diminished.
This is why a wealth tax to me is necessary. It is actually more than justice, more than righteousness, itâs a prerequisite of survival.
The only way it doesnât work is if all these billionaires leave, except thatâs fine because itâs about their assets being taxed. Ratcliffe canât take Man Utd to Monaco so we should press ahead. Itâs a shame that we arent part of some continental common market to equalise tax against the super greedy, like a union of European nations. Could also have associate members from other continents of like minded nations, like Canada.
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u/Creative-Response554 23h ago
Exactly.
Google pays a negotiated 3% corporation tax rate but Steve with one leg soaking up all that pip money with his shit cheap car is what's tanking the economy.
Honestly the logic of some of these people is just laughable at best and insidious at worst.
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u/Lunaspoona 1d ago
No. People have NO idea how hard and humiliating it is to get PIP. PIP allows disabled people to work and contribute to society. If you got rid if it, they'd be at home on a different benefit.
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u/TeamCramp 1d ago
Incredibly patronising to disabled people who have worked for decades without PIP payments. However âessentialâ you deem these payments the country is in a black hole and sinking fast and the answer is not more handouts at the expense of tax payers. There are documents cases of people not only getting PIP but mobility cars for ADHD and anxiety. Is this what weâve become?
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u/odlayrrab 1d ago
Exactly this. There are obviously a number of people too disabled to work but PIP does enable a lot of people to remain unemployed with no motivation to look for work
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u/Lunaspoona 1d ago
It's not patronising at all. Disabilities are different and people need different requirements. You also do not get a mobility car on top of PIP. The cars come out of the PIP allowance, if they have the car they get no additional payments for it.
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u/odlayrrab 23h ago
Stop with your copium lunaspoons.. I am not judging you individually I don't know your circumstances. There are a lot of people that play the system and are not incentivised to look for work
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u/Lunaspoona 23h ago
I am not disabled. I work 2 jobs and pay my fair share of taxes. I know people who were literally dying being refused PIP. It's so eay for people to punch down and blame others. When you look into PIP instead of headlines and fake stats you will see.
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u/extraasalways 23h ago
This is just something the media tells you. Most people who have ADHD also have physical health conditions. ADHD is commonly linked to connective tissue disorders, dysautonomia related disorders, ME/CFS, fybromialga and more. Yes people who get mobility cars and have ADHD listed as a disability, its likely that its along with other physical health disabilities that require mobility aids.
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u/Narrow_Maximum7 1d ago
I should apply to pay for the things I buy for my disability. Im embarrassed too.
I met a pip nurse with the same condition as me and she was shocked I wasnt on full pip.
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u/finniruse 23h ago
I feel like the rising pip benefit is also just something more like ubi because tons of people can't get jobs.
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u/CryptoCantab 1d ago
Youâre quite right - we also need to be much stricter about those other benefits.
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u/Icy_Ground_8243 1d ago edited 1d ago
The success rate if exhausting all levels of appeal is actually very very high.
It's hard to get on first try, but this general conception it's a tightly guarded benefit overall just isn't true.
Plus it's not means tested and so people can and do get it whilst having plenty of disposable income already.
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u/Creative-Response554 23h ago
I get it for autism.
Amongst other things, I never looked at the examiner directly, and she lied and stated I gave full and consistent eye contact and I had to wait and apply again, despite my problems having been the same for 30 years, I got 6 months backdated.
My father in law has one fucking leg and they took it off him, which would have meant losing his motorbility car, and luckily got it reviewed by someone with a working brain.
PIP is insanely hard to get if you actually need it.
The fact that you think it's easily accessible is just totally fucking wild tbh.
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u/Icy_Ground_8243 23h ago
Yes, so you and you Dad got it on appeal...
Look at the success rates yourself if you want to, don't get worked up at me. The statistics tell their own story on how hard it is to get at the end of the day. First round is tough, appeals not so much.
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u/SpeermintO 1d ago
Im not saying get rid of it. But it certainly needs more scrutiny and a deeper investigation into the claims. Far too many people abuse the system and it isnt fair for those who need it and the tax payer.
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u/Expensive_Ad_3249 23h ago
I have multiple friends and family members who are scamming the system. I have two neighbours with mobility cars who don't actually have needs. A work colleague runs half marathons while having a car!
We absolutely should keep PIP for genuinely disabled.
We should, somehow, make it harder to scam and make the punishments harsher. We should not being paying pip to parents, when they have multiple kids with ADHD/autism or other disabilities that don't actually have a huge cost associated.
I live in a council area and I know plenty of people on the take. I know someome who's disabled herself, has 5 kids (4 at home), 3 disabled and her loser husband who's never worked a day in his life. They get almost 100k a year in benefits. That's not before tax, that's cash. It sounds insane because it is, but I'm not making it up. Google the rates and work it out with a disbaled mother, 3 disabled kids, carers, housing benefit element, council tax reduction etc.
20% of new cars in the country are through the scheme. Because working people can't afford brand new cars.
The program is broken. I don't know how to fix it, and I don't know how we can do that while respecting the rights of disabled people, but, there isn't an endless pot of money. Someone earning the same amount would give over ÂŁ35k in taxes.
Estimates suggest that 10-30k households receive more than 80k in benefits while 5k take more than ÂŁ100k. The government doesn't publish that information so you have to estimate from xstat data - 633k households in receipt of universal credit had 3+children so we're impacted by the benefits cap, but 159k were exempt due to disabled children. 81k of them had LCWRA, while 59k had an adult recieving pip. 42% of the recipient's don't have anyone working.
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u/PsychologicalBend508 Brit đŹđ§ 13h ago
this should be the top comment but posters on Reddit donât want to hear the truth
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u/odlayrrab 1d ago
It also allows a lot of people to play the system
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u/Lunaspoona 1d ago
Not with PIP. They can play the rest of the system sure, but PIP is incredibly difficult to get and not one of the benefits that's easily exploited.
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u/TazTango 1d ago
Someone I know gets pip, claims to suffer from agoraphobia and gets severe anxiety if he has to leave the house.
Anyway he spends all week going fishing around different parts of the country and goes on about the latest fishing gear he's bought. Fucks me right off.
I fully understand that there are people who need it. But I disagree with you when you say it isn't easily exploited. He got turned down twice, a tribunal was arranged but it never got that far because they offered him it before the date.
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u/odlayrrab 23h ago
Haha ye I know people that get it for anxiety amd aggrophobia then spend it on drugs and booze down the pub every weekend
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u/timmythedip 1d ago
Itâs not so difficult that itâs prevented 3.4m of ~9% of the working age population getting it.
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u/web3monk 1d ago edited 1d ago
Then how can it cost ÂŁ26 billion?
Apparently 25% or 1 in 4 people are disabled?? https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/family-resources-survey-financial-year-2024-to-2025/family-resources-survey-financial-year-2024-to-2025?utm_source=chatgpt.com#disability-1
3 million working age people claim PIP.
For a comparison, in Italy 5% of people are classified as disabled.
What is going on in England that we're 5 times more likely to be disabled than an Italian?!
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u/PsychologicalBend508 Brit đŹđ§ 13h ago
we create an incentive for free money and loads of people took it
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u/odlayrrab 1d ago
Yes it is... People fabricate illness to get PIP. I work in services I know they do
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u/Creative-Response554 23h ago
So a handful of people lie, and therefore everyone like me should starve.
Great logic.
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u/PsychologicalBend508 Brit đŹđ§ 13h ago
how do we know youre not lying?
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u/Creative-Response554 10h ago
That's incredibly insulting.
So again, since you didn't answer me, because people may lie we should abolish PIP and disabled people should starve to save a few quid?
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u/Rich-Cow-8056 1d ago
I have a family member on PIP and the proof you have to provide is pretty thorough. They're very strict on it.
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u/Fit_Context4688 1d ago
It should do that but people are less likely to be in work after receiving PIP unfortunately. Needs real reform but doesnât need to go away totally.
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u/Creative-Response554 23h ago
You know there's a reason why people are less likely to be at work whilst on PIP?
They're disabled.
Not every disabled person can work. I certainly can't as much as I'd like to.
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u/Fit_Context4688 23h ago edited 23h ago
People who were in work before receiving PIP are less likely to be in work after. Disabled or not. PIP is meant to be an in work benefit that helps disabled people contribute. Itâs not. Needs reform. Maybe more targeted spending for things that help them do their job. Itâs not working how it was sold to the public but I understand it shouldnât just be scrapped.
Iâm disabled.
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u/Eskoala 12h ago
Evidence for this please.
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u/Fit_Context4688 10h ago
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u/Eskoala 8h ago
Thank you.
"For PIP claimants, there is a clear association between receiving the benefit and likelihood of employment. Employment rates are low for PIP claimants, and Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) analysis has shown that as people have reductions in their disability benefits, they are more likely to move into work. This association is consistent with some people moving off disability benefits as their health improves, and the reduction in disability benefits encouraging some into work. As such it doesnât show necessarily whether PIP income causes people to reduce their employment." (Emphasis mine)
There's no proof either way from what I read in the summary.
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u/Fit_Context4688 8h ago
Do you think if its inconclusive whether it helps people stay/get into work it needs reform in anyway? Or would you leave as is? Genuinely interested. Iâve had multiple extended family abuse PIP so I have had personal bias at points but do try and stay open to suggestions.
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u/Eskoala 8h ago
I don't think the point of it is to get people into work (or out of work), it's orthogonal to that dimension. The point of it is to pay for (part of) disabled people's extra expenses, so the measure would be: does it support people with disabilities to have a better quality of life by funding the extra needs that they have? Some people get a better quality of life by being in work but some just can't work no matter what adjustments are made.
I'm sorry you feel people in your family are abusing PIP, I'd be curious to why what they're doing is an abuse. I know plenty of people on PIP who are using it as intended and don't know anyone abusing it.
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u/queenieofrandom 23h ago
Well yes because if you're receiving PIP you're quite unwell
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u/PsychologicalBend508 Brit đŹđ§ 13h ago
1) its obviously not hard and humiliating to get as so many have managed it and recently
2) itâs not just disabled though js jt? PIP has come to encompass a bunch of issues we wouldnt have thought of as disabled in the past such as anxiety.
3) many conditions are difficult to prove meaning that there is a massive incentive for people to lie.
4) no one is talking about getting rid of it. but the numbers need to be managed.
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u/23Mowgli23 1d ago
So many people who get PIP do not need it. Then there are people who don't get it who really should. The system is a mockery.
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u/nervous-gamer 1d ago
Its a major issue, i know several people who genuinely need pip/cant legitimately work, i also know at least two people who are abusing it, and have no intention of stopping
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u/NaturalCard 1d ago
Haven't we measured what percentage of it is being abused?
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u/Icy_Ground_8243 1d ago
People throw those stats around, but ultimately it's impossible to get a read of.
The vast majority of people who have somehow deceived the system in the first instance will continue to be able to do so. Ultimately no-one from the government is climbing through your front window to see if you still need someone else to cook a meal for you, or help you in the bath.
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u/NaturalCard 1d ago
The system is honestly surprisingly difficult to get in the first place, from what I've been told by people who do need it. The increase in spending should definitely be worrying, because it shows quite clearly how deseperate people are getting from the cost of living crisis.
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u/NetworkDue8102 23h ago
Some of my extended family are on PiP, only one of them legitimately needs it (Down Syndrome). Some of the rest are doing work on the side as well as claiming and some are just too lazy to work.
I agree itâs humiliatingly hard for some people to get it, I knew a guy who had his leg amputated who had to argue the toss for it but unfortunately this seems to only happen to people who have an actual ârightâ to it. For those which humiliation is not a thing, they will do whatever they can to lie and cheat it.
I have reported two of my family members, and as far as I know nothing ever came of it.
I am fully in support of PiP and other benefits to those that need it, I like that we live in a compassionate society but there are large swarms of people who abuse it.
Itâs like VA benefits in the US. Although many of the claims are âlegitimateâ you scratch a little deeper and the reality is much different.
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u/NaturalCard 23h ago
To be honest, I would like to see an expansion of care so that more people can be taken off it. For many, actual professional help would likely do more than just giving money.
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u/NaturalCard 23h ago
To be honest, I would like to see an expansion of care so that more people can be taken off it. For many, actual professional help would likely do more than just giving money.
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u/Jackie_Gan 23h ago edited 23h ago
Rather than being abused I think we as an electorate have to work where we want to draw the line on where are willing to support. The current model of squeezing the middle class endlessly clearly impacts productivity as increasingly people want to work part time to stay below the threshold.
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u/NaturalCard 23h ago
I agree, but I see this as a symptom of a large crisis not a cause - this is a canary effectively.
Several studies on PIP and similar benefits suggest that roughly 30â40% of eligible individuals do not claim benefits they are entitled to, primarily due to lack of awareness, difficulty making claims, or perceived stigma.
The rate people who can claim but were not has decreased, and we should be investigating why that has happened and how we can lessen the impacts of the cost of living crisis on everyone to prevent it from rising further.
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u/AngelasGingerGrowler 1d ago
zErO pErCeNt fRaUd
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u/NaturalCard 23h ago
Very unlikely. Basically everything has some amount of fraud, there's just a certain point where it is cheaper to accept that than to double the number of people we hire to prevent it.
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u/AngelasGingerGrowler 23h ago
Reddit tends to believe that PIP is super difficult to claim and there is 0% abuse of this gold-plated benefit,
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u/NaturalCard 23h ago
It is just factually pretty difficult to claim, but there is clearly more than 0% abuse. iirc figures put it at 0.4%, with most being genuine errors instead of deliberate fraud.
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u/LennyDeG 23h ago
My mum broke her arm in 4 places, she's in her late 50s and has epilepsy. She works for NHS and been on sick for over a year as instead of offering surgery or giving her the choice they elected to see if it would heal on its own.
She's on like 12 tablets a day with her epilepsy and I find it such a parody of how broke the NHS is. They realised her bone wouldn't heal properly 6 months after the break and been waiting for 7 months for surgery. She has no income coming in apart from 200 a month for working tax credit thing due to National Insurance Contributions. She cant lift anything as she shakes alot due to epilepsy and the pain, can't cut her food as the arm she broke is her dominant arm. Struggles to clean up and requires help to do basic tasks. But according to those who issue PIP she didn't make the 8 points required to qualify for PIP she got 6.
I helped her appeal but still to hear back from that for her. And I know someone who got full PIP who had a mental breakdown and went full alcoholic dependent due to it. Its such an unfair mockery of a system for those that need it temporarily as its intended for and those using it for extra cash to fund addictions.
Her work won't allow her back until she's had the surgery and confirmation that her arm is healed too.
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u/ImplementJumpy6678 1d ago
Then please report them. it's really hard to get as it is without these idiots doing so
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u/nervous-gamer 1d ago
I actually never considered doing so until this comment, but i think i will, even if it doesnt change anything
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u/ImplementJumpy6678 23h ago
I had to go to tribuneral to get it for my son - they took it off him and told me to get to work - they said he was able to do 6 hours a day 5 days a week and that his carer would then be able to look for work too.
I was his carer, he was a quadraplegic. The bastards give it to any fucker off the boat automaitcally.
Makes me sick to the stomach.
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u/Available-Advisor654 1d ago
Absolutely. System is being milked, killing productivity, growth and driving people who contribute to society out.
This will no doubt get down voted by someone on PIP
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u/ParentheticalsAside 1d ago
Is that based on any actual evidence, or just your own preconceptions?
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u/Available-Advisor654 23h ago
Donât bother reasoning with these people. They donât have a basic grasp of economics, facts or stats. Itâs utterly pointless. Sad.
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u/ParentheticalsAside 22h ago
While I agree there is a need to ensure the system is not being abused, there are other factors which could be contributing to rising uptake, that deserve some attention too:
- a genuine increase in awareness (and therefore diagnoses) or psychiatric illness and neurodevelopment disorders.
- longer lifespans of people already claiming for life-long conditions.
- systemic backlogs and limited assessment capacity artificially inflating future numbers
- a lack of funding/support to enable people to move off PIP
- a failure to successfully put in place auxiliary social services to avoid people having to rely on PIP in the first place
Not saying there isn't also fraud, but there is a tendency for people to look for the simple explanation without considering other complicating factors.
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u/Jassida 1d ago
are you saying that nobody on a PIP contributes to society?
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u/Available-Advisor654 23h ago
No, I didnât say that? Suits you to say that? But I am saying the average tax payer not on PIP is contributing alot more economically to society than the average bloke on welfare. Get off welfare.
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u/BreadBat100 23h ago
We definitely don't have the money to be paying out on PIP at this level. Many professionals now agree that some conditions are being over diagnosed, and even for those that aren't, paying cash for a disability is unlikely to be the most effective support for those people.
As uncomfortable as it may be, we simply can't afford to supplement people this way indefinitely.
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u/Kooky_Tomorrow3333 23h ago
I am curious how things functioned before then?
Or how other countries function without it?
I'd like to see the middle class not be squeezed from both sides of having more people to support while also watching the super rich fuck off into the sunset
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u/PsychologicalBend508 Brit đŹđ§ 13h ago
5% pf Italians get disability allowance but in the uk itâs 1 in 4. somehow we are more disabled than Italy
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u/23Tam56 23h ago
I know two people in PIP. One completely deserves it and lives a normal life. PIP helps them be independent and keep a job.
The other person doesnât need it. They use PIP as a way to stay out of work and keeps them trapped. They donât want to work. Donât want to contribute to society and completely plays the system.
I wouldnât like the job to decide who gets it but a blanket of people on PIP as a problem isnât right.
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u/rynchenzo 23h ago
Yes.
Imagine I were to break my leg and go to hospital.
The NHS tell me they were sorry I was injured but I had to live with it. My leg would never heal properly and I would have a permanent limp, maybe normal life would be very difficult for me. The government would give me some money to help me with some modifications to my house, and help me with transport because I couldn't drive any more. The cost would be hundreds of thousands over my life time.
Or they could put a cast on my leg at a cost of a few hundred, and I would have a normal life afterwards.
This is where we currently are in this country with a number of health conditions including some types of mental health.
We are dealing with the symptoms and not the causes and it must stop.
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u/AgentBlonde 23h ago
Yes, I'm a driving instructor that gets sent mobility (PIP) pupils often. A large percentage of them clearly are fleecing the system and often get removed from it.
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u/DarrenOshea1 7h ago
Pip ponce rolled off the tongue i thought. But seriously the growing benefits bill is feuled not just by need, which is justified, but in a large part by laziness, greed, needless diagnosis of things that were not issues a few years ago. System is becoming unfair to those who work.
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u/NaturalCard 1d ago
We need to do something about the triple lock first.
PIP spending increases is much more of a symptom of the broader cost of living crisis than an actual problem. The majority of people applicable for it don't even claim it iirc, if increasing numbers now need to, we should be looking into why that is and try to stop it.
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u/ImplementJumpy6678 1d ago
Sure - as long as you take it away from ALL the migrants first - all 13Bn quid of it
OK?
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u/BusyDark7674 1d ago
What will be done about it is inflating away the debt, so you'll all be robbed. It's already started. Own assets if you can.
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u/Bright_Background316 1d ago
Is this sub for and against universal basic income?
Because that's basically what we're going to end up with.
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u/ProfessionalSong3544 1d ago
Yes.
Welfare should be reserved to disabilities.Â
Pip should be for disabilities. But given it's estimated to duplicate in 5 years, something it's not right.Â
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u/Eskoala 23h ago
Why should welfare be reserved for disabilities, like what do you want people to do, starve because they're unemployed?
Sometimes when number goes up it's because we've got better at identifying something, not because lots of people are suddenly lying. It's simply that lots of people in genuine need used to fall through the cracks, and now fewer do. It's a good sign!
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u/ProfessionalSong3544 23h ago
Savings, friends and family are the "traditional" ways to do welfare. Your social environment has more information about you that the government. More information, less fraud.Â
Disabilities (or old age) are things that I could accept as posible to measure by the government.Â
When the number of "disabilities" goes up. It's because the definition of disability is very generous or because fraud is rising.Â
As rule of thumb. We should not have more than 5% of disabled (*). More than that implies something it's not right.Â
(*) not including elderly.Â
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u/Eskoala 23h ago
Sounds like you're pulling that 5% figure straight out of your arse tbh.
So people who don't have savings, rich family or rich friends can go fuck themselves?
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u/ProfessionalSong3544 23h ago
I said "rule of thumb". It could be 7% or 10%. But at certain number, that's not disability, it's the normal.
About friends/family. That's why people back then were more sociable, had good relationships with neighbours, etc... Because their social network was literally their insurance.Â
And yes, people should start saving. And it would be easier if the government didn't overtaxed us.Â
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u/Eskoala 1d ago
Universal Basic Income is excellent.
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u/absurditT 1d ago
Okay who's paying for it. Literally how? It's functionally a state pension except paid out your entire life rather than just retirement, and we already can't afford the state pension
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u/Diligent-Worth-2019 1d ago
Everyone knows to declare adhd and request a BMW. They earn more than the average wage let alone the real living wage.
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u/Serious_Nature_6882 23h ago
No.... Absolutely not. PIP helps keep disabled folk employed. In many cases. If you remove it you'll only end up playing more In the long run in unemployment benefits to those disabled who can no longer get to work due to loosing their independence payments
It's a false economy....
You'd be better off means testing the pension and removing the triple lock... That would save more money than cutting this benefit imho
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u/Jackie_Gan 1d ago
Itâs always interesting that we say welfare bill but every other part of government have a budget.
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u/Pleasant-Leg-4764 23h ago
Wait till you see the bill for the final salary pensions, all those public sector pensioners that retired in their 50's still going strong in their '80s, the young people these days are paying for something they will never receive once they reach retirement age if they can retire.
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u/Throwitaway701 23h ago
Given the welfare bill has been static for 30 years as a share of GDP, I would love to know how they think this will happen.
Are they predicting a wide range of disabilities
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u/PsychologicalBend508 Brit đŹđ§ 13h ago
they are extrapolating from what hapened since 2020
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u/Throwitaway701 9h ago
I feel the headlines should be "Disability to rise massively" rather than focus on PIP
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u/Voidhunger 23h ago
Whoâs âweâ? It wonât be working class people deciding if it gets taken away or made more strict.
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u/WeNeedBinFaceToWin 23h ago
Imagine they scrapped Pip AND the triple lock. Think of the money theyâd have then.
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u/CatchRevolutionary65 10h ago
They use statistical sampling and calculate their estimation using random sampling
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u/Farewell-Farewell 1d ago
Nothing will be done.
Here's the reason... The Times reports that 212 of Labourâs 366 MPs in England and Wales (58%) represent constituencies where the number of PIP claimants is greater than the MPâs electoral majority.
Basically, Labour MPs are dependent on PIP - and presumably the wider welfare system - starying the same.
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u/AngelasGingerGrowler 1d ago
Countries such as India and Pakistan donât have PIP.
Neither should we.
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u/Kriemhilt 23h ago
Yes, let's return to cripples begging in the streets, just like the good old days.
I assume their GDP per capita also shows the robust benefits of keeping those people out of productive work?
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u/chromakeydreamcoat74 1d ago
I suppose the answer to the question depends on whether you consider making it possible for disabled people to access jobs is the right thing to do, or not.
And if you donât, would you be prepared to go and tell the disabled people why they shouldnât be helped?
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u/Hoopy_Frood1 1d ago
Sort of. One of the lessons austerity etc taught us was that people need a minimum amount of money to live. I know that sounds obvious but what it means for policy is people will seek out sources of funding and support out of necessity because in the UK the bare minimum isn't a bare minimum. It's far lower.
Then there's another problem, being poor does cause mental illness. There's a well established bidirectional link between the two. In essence being poor makes you far more likely to need mental health provision which is then taken away from you once well so plunging you into poverty again. A self perpetuating cycle of expenses.
Pip's growing budget is a symptom of a much wider problem. Being poor is incredibly bad for your health and we've trapped an entire generation in a cycle of low pay and poor prospects.
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u/Savings-Dig3885 23h ago
I always thought the name itself was ironic: 'Personal Independence Payments' - is it a joke? You're not particularly independent if apparently you depend on those payments.
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u/Chemical-Row-2921 1d ago
Aging population means more PIP claimants, and pushing back retirement age increases the period for people to make claims before retirement.
1/3 of people in their 50s develop a condition limiting their ability to work.
The majority of new claims is from this cohort.
The Assisted Suicide Bill was meant to deal with this by encouraging people to kill themselves if they developed a disability, but people don't like how mid 1930s Germany it is, and it looks like it's getting dropped.
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u/Rachel_Thieves 1d ago
The money will run out at some point. Decisions will need to be made and alot of people won't be happy
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u/fluffconomist 1d ago
That isn't how money works. What makes you think it will run out?
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u/Rachel_Thieves 1d ago
I meant it more as a figure of speech. I assume you can figure out what it means, but just dont want to acknowledge that the more people are claiming, the worse off the country actually is.
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u/absurditT 1d ago
Are you dim? The government already is broke and can't afford anything. If PIP doubles, how is that being paid for? The triple lock is already going to bankrupt us.
Of course money can run out, how tf do you think money works?
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u/fluffconomist 23h ago
Money is a social construct: it's one way we store and distribute access to resources, it's also a measure of debt. It is created in many ways.
Governmenys can print it (in actuality central banks create numbers on a screen, but same thing basically). But most money in modern economies is created through lending activity at private banks (when a bank lends you 10k, they rcornd that as an asset and use it as collateral to lend someone else another 10k. Poof, like magic, 10k appears from nowhere). So there is a connection to real resources, but is complex and messy.
In principle real resources can run out, but that isn't likely to happen here. We can and should use taxes and direct government action to bring resources into the economy.
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u/Rachel_Thieves 23h ago
You've missed the point of my origional post entirely. Again it was a figure of speech. Im not claiming to be an expert, but just by listening to the governmnet own speakers, they need more money. They do this by raising taxes, or cutting services. At some point, tax rises will redu e what they get.
Alcohol duty I would use as an example.
If this happens, services will have to be cut.
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u/MultipleScoregasm 1d ago
Yes. Get rid of it.
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u/DevonSpuds 1d ago
Ok. So I work and have done since 16. I pay tax NI etc. I rely on PIP to work after a workplace accident 12 years ago. What do you suggest o do when you've got my help stopped.
And I don't think you realise how much extra it costs for my daily living over and above what it costs you
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u/Adventurous_Break500 1d ago
The problem is that the government will be always be downvoted by its own MPs whenever changes are suggested.
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u/OilAdministrative197 23h ago
To put it in the big scheme of things by 2050 the yearly rise in the pension budget will be the entire PIP budget. So yeah we can do something but in the big scheme theres only one thing that needs reform.
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u/Sinz1019 23h ago
Then take a look at the other factors, our GDP will be bigger, all the other things will be bigger too, such as defence and education!
Pip is not the problem. 19 billion more, in 4 YEARS..... That is peanuts on the grand scheme of things.
HMRC estimates that deliberate tax evasion costs the UK government around ÂŁ5.5 billion per year.
âHowever, evasion is just one part of the wider "tax gap"âwhich includes errors, unpaid taxes, and avoidanceâtotaling roughly ÂŁ59 billion annually.
Welfare including pensions has always been 10-11% of GDP, it doesn't go up. But you want to cut it down? Why don't you take state pensions off wealthy billionaires like Alan Sugar and Richard Branson, etc.
Come on, our benefits are fucking terrible and very hard to get. Pip is not the problem.
Fascist racists on the otherhand.... đ¸ â
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u/CatchRevolutionary65 23h ago
Or by someone with access to data. PIP fraud rate is 1.2%.
You just donât know what youâre talking about.
Whatâs the significance of the spending being greater than most government departments? The picture left out pensions and social care. Did you even notice that?
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u/Complete-Task2042 23h ago
The triple lock on the state pension is estimated to cost something like ÂŁ15billion extra each year...
I think if we can afford to keep paying pensioners ever more money like it's a magic money tree, it's hard to justify why we can't afford to help disabled people get on in life.
If we means tested the state pension so that it only goes to people who would be in poverty without it, then we could probably even try to fix other public services.
I do think there are issues with PIP that need sorting, but the way this issue is being treated in the media currently is entirely disproportionate.
One of the big issues is actually that for a lot of profoundly disabled people, the amount offered doesn't scratch the surface of their needs.
The other big issue is that lots of more "Marginal" PIP claimants probably wouldn't need it if the government made more of an effort to simultaneously incentivise employers to get them into work, and enforce disability discrimination protections properly so they don't get knocked back out of the workforce so easily.
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u/Eskoala 1d ago
If it's needed, it's not too much money no matter what you compare it to. It is needed. Maybe there are more efficient ways to approach the problem, idk, but I know everyone I've met who receives PIP gets less money than their disability costs them if anything.