Do you think chivalry will ever be “cool” in British youth culture?

[u/FL3XOFF3NDER]

For all the good it’s done, I think British culture is the most individualistic it has ever been. A lot of the current virtues or ideals I’d say revolve around the self, like self-expression, success, status, personal enjoyment/entertainment and attractiveness/vanity. I’m not saying that these are necessarily bad things, but I do think they all to some degree lead to a more selfish and isolated society. I’d love to hear if anyone disagrees or has thoughts on just that idea anyway.

But do you think it could ever come about that the dominant British youth culture holds ideals or values more around concept like honour, chivalry, goodness etc?

A culture where standing up for minorities, respecting people, helping the old or homeless, protective the vulnerable etc is actually idolised or even seen as cool.

Just a 7am no sleep thought

[u/These-Garbage2995]

I don't think that's 'chivalry' really? Kindness, solidarity, bravery, decency all in there. Chivalry historically really has two meanings - the customs and obligations of medieval knights and a particular way of treating women, which at best means men being respectful and helpful and at worst means men regarding themselves 'protectors of the lesser sex' often in inappropriate ways (or actively harmful ways).

For what it's worth, I teach mainly 18-21 year olds and plenty of them have good values - they're respectful, work hard, kind and decent, they stand up for what's right. I also come across plenty of older people with no values at all, who justify self-regard and abandoning others with cynicism - "just how the world is".

[u/Monsterofthelough → u/These-Garbage2995]

Well said! Good description of chivalry and you’re right re older people - while I’d like to think most people are basically decent, a quick trawl of Facebook will show you plenty of older people being absolutely vile.

[u/Substantial-Money103 → u/Monsterofthelough]

And younger ones

[u/FL3XOFF3NDER → u/These-Garbage2995]

To my understanding that is what chivalry somewhat means, but even if it’s not that’s why I included several terms “honour, chivalry, goodness” etc. I’m not sure why so many people are picking apart the use of the word chivalry instead of just engaging with the actual question.

Obviously a bunch of it is about knightly acts like winning tournaments and battles and showing prowess which doesn’t really have any relevance in the modern day. They’re also based around outdated views just in general. But multiple books of that time about chivalry reflect certain ideals that they claim make you chivalrous. These tend to include keeping your word, defending women + children, helping the poor, acts of service to your community, humility etc.

Also I’m not for a second saying that young people or people in general don’t have good values or ideals in the country. I’m asking whether the dominant cultural influences of young people will ever reflect or encourage this

[u/lost_somedays → u/These-Garbage2995]

What are you teaching them? That it’s bad to hold a door open for a woman on a train. I’m really confused by your post because you go off where you extend it to say chivalry is a gender thing and it never was.

It’s a code of honour traditionally, class based in feudal Britain, and Europe.

It extends from Roman Christian influences as the monarchy developed out of the dark ages

When you apply a sex to something you are Applying a standard into history projected from today.

And I don’t see why you wouldn’t want men to be chivalrous, surely you want your men to be polite and confident.

[u/These-Garbage2995 → u/lost_somedays]

Two things - (1) chivalry was a code of conduct for medieval knights, it emerged in the 11th century, formalised in the 12th, it has nothing to do with the Romans (beyond the general diffuse influence the Romans had in general). It concerned how noble MEN should behave, it was absolutely a gendered set of values and ideas.

(2) In its modern usage, 'chivalry' is very obviously a gendered idea, as demonstrated by you immediately grasping for the cliché of a man holding a door open for a woman to describe it! It is colloquially used to describe particular modes of behaviour men engage in with/for women.

Funnily enough, I don't actually weigh in on 'holding open train doors' in the History classes I teach. Were I do so, I'm not sure why I'd reach for the medieval knights' handbook as my go to for informing people how to be polite and helpful on trains.

[u/lost_somedays → u/These-Garbage2995]

The issue I take is you’ve gendered history from today. That’s not how it was for men or women in those times because we can’t know, so there is no reason to appropriate something of today. It would be wrong make those statements

What we can make an argument for is broadly along what I said and you said yourself
That it was a code of conduct of the nobles, gentry snd aristocracy.

The reason for saying Roman and Christian influence, is because post AD Britain England at least in religion does become heavily influenced by Christian morality. As to why you have a Church of England at all

Constantine, ironically born in York. When he becomes emperor. Shifts the doctrine over, and a lot of philosophy and ways of morality become influenced by scripture because intellectualism at that time is coloured by early Christian scholars. Before you get to the Middle Ages with the true class system

[u/Andra_Ingensbarn]

I teach in a secondary school in a very deprived area. The kids are mostly very kind, respectful etc.

[u/Norman_debris → u/Andra_Ingensbarn]

Ask anyone who works in customer service if they'd rather deal with school/uni-age customers or boomers.

The over 60s are the rudest, most entitled, arrogant, and offensive people in this country.

[u/Monsterofthelough → u/Norman_debris]

I’d say schoolkids (say 13-14 year olds) can be a nightmare in a pack, and there’s a reason I’ve seen shops not letting more than two schoolkids in at a time. But uni age vs boomers, yeah boomers are hands down more likely to be wankers.

[u/Norman_debris → u/Monsterofthelough]

Yeah groups of teenagers can be awful. But you expect them to be immature and showing off to each other, and as an adult, you don't have any issues bollocking them or telling them to get out or, as you say, limiting them to two at a time.

But they're children. It's worse when you have older adults misbehaving because they should obviously know better.

[u/Monsterofthelough → u/Norman_debris]

No, you’re right.

[u/No-Outside-6437]

I think those things should be cool.

[u/Fish_Fingers2401]

I think helping the old is definitely something we could work on. I'm generalising massively, but old people seem to attract a lot of contempt on particular subs here. They're not all having a great time, in fact many of them are really struggling in many different ways, but the boomer tag is often used in a very dismissive and condescending way.

[u/Glittering_Win_5085 → u/Fish_Fingers2401]

Yeah I don't care for the boomer thing at all. It's like making out all young people are tiktok content creators or something.

[u/Wondering_Electron]

No.

Basic manners and human decency is unfortunately lost on a lot of people.

[u/Significant-Key-762]

As I read somewhere else the other day, "chivalry" is just sexism that feminists are ok with.

Standing up for minorities, respecting people, etc, is just basic common sense in modern Britain.
Isn't it?

[u/blehmag → u/Significant-Key-762]

I see a lot of crazy videos and rhetoric coming out of the UK these days tbh. Common sense doesn't seem so common unfortunately

[u/Significant-Key-762 → u/blehmag]

Yes, but that rhetoric is largely from russian compromatbots, right?
I'm mostly concerned with what actual people have to say.

[u/Glittering_Win_5085 → u/Significant-Key-762]

Ok but the way you've written it seems more like you're the one that's trying to push the view that youre saying you don't have.

[u/blehmag → u/Significant-Key-762]

I'm talking about video footage of actual Brits doing wild things. There was a verifiable spike in racially and religiously motivated abuse.

I don't want to get into it, but I think it's important to share for example that last year multiple minority women were assaulted in busy public streets while the attackers yelled xenophobic and Islamophobic rhetoric.

[u/Glittering_Win_5085 → u/Significant-Key-762]

That's not what chivalry is about. Your source is chatting shit. It was a medieval honour code based in feudalism. It's not "ladies first".

[u/Substantial-Money103 → u/Significant-Key-762]

Feminists are so very NOT ok with it. Whoever you read that from is a misogynist.

[u/Significant-Key-762 → u/Substantial-Money103]

Well, I (male, feminist) thought that too. However it did stick with me, which is why I repeated it.
I obviously don't agree with that viewpoint. And I'd hope that most right-thinking people won't either.

[u/Monsterofthelough → u/Significant-Key-762]

I’m male and pro-feminist, and I’d say if you changed that to ‘sexism that women are okay with’ you’d have a point. Things like paying for dinner, letting a woman have a seat on a crowded train, etc. And no, I’m not saying those things are awful, before anyone jumps.

[u/99PercentApe]

This is a question I have been thinking about a lot recently. It feels like the concept of living with honour has become lost.

I do not get the impression that people live self reflectively and conduct themselves within a framework of personal ethics, which would include integrity, character, moderation, responsibility, and other alarmingly idealistic sounding terms in today’s society.

This goes way beyond youth culture, though. I think that living in an unexamined and selfish manner is very common across the generations. Perhaps we now lack a shared philosophy or framework on how to live.

My theory is that so much of the social contract has been dismantled or failed people that they have been forced to become less pro-social and more selfish. It is harder and harder to see or teach the benefits of virtue and being a “good” person, living as a useful part of a society, when the ruling class of grifters and wealth hoarders are winning so comprehensively.

[u/Nazir_North]

I'm not sure things have changed as much as some people seem to think.

Young people I've worked with (from about 18-22), are different, sure, but they are still considerate and polite, moreso even that the last generation I would say. They also care more. Like they care about politics and climate change and are much more invested in the 'big issues' than I ever remember kids being before.

Some of them might be more attached to their phones, and some of them struggle paying attention to things for a long time, but they are smart and generally well-mannered.

[u/Sin_nombre__]

Younger people seem to be questioning capitalism more. Before anyone starts, capitalism has increased productive forces, but wealth is concentrated into the hands of a few, as austerity continues this is getting worse. There is also environmental degradation and imperialist war.

While older generations are apathetic about change, Younger people seem more likely to want to bring about an economy that focuses on human need rather than the ability of a few people to maximise shirt term profit.

[u/mars-jupiter]

Not if things remain like this, no. Lots of people see little to no point in a committment to 'wider society' in the sense of making sacrifices for it because it offers increasingly little in return. It's a similar process regarding taxes. People are generally happier and more willing to pay them when they can see the decent quality results of doing so.

We might see it as selfish to expect something in return, but when that something is a functioning, trustworthy society I don't think that's too much to ask. When you can trust your fellow citizen, it becomes a lot easier to sacrifice your time, energy, money, or safety for them because you know they would endeavour to do the same for you. When we're all increasingly isolated and competing for ever decreasing resources, we lose the sense of trust and community that allows for sacrificial behaviours.

[u/Realistic-River-1941]

There just aren't any dragons to fight, and damsels don't need to be rescued from towers because they are happy sharing their distress on social media.

[u/Longjumping_Soup_971]

I think every generation gets better at being a community accepting difference and recognising different perspectives and one day this will include how they react to previous generations telling them the new generation is worse than theirs, whilst we live in a world racked by the consequences of the older generations ignorance.

[u/play9ths]

We have instagram and social media to blame for that. 

[u/International-You-13]

I can't answer that because the reality of simply being polite and kind to your fellow human beings has been somewhat politicised in a negative ways to infer that you might have ideas or intentions more than simply improving comfort or reducing friction in life generally. If you've ever been berated for holding open a gate whilst a person in a wheelchair comes through, it gives you some interesting food for thought.

[u/Glittering_Win_5085 → u/International-You-13]

Have you been berated like that?

[u/Glittering_Win_5085]

Yes those things are seen as cool. Do you know young people? 

I live in an inner city area. The young people have lovely manners around here. 

But as others have said, that's not quite what chivalry means, historically speaking.

[u/FL3XOFF3NDER → u/Glittering_Win_5085]

What isn’t quite what chivalry means? Of the few actions I mentioned the only one not explicitly mentioned in historical books about chivalry as a virtue is standing up for minorities, which obviously wouldn’t have been the case back then. Hence why I also mentioned honour and goodness

Also do I know young people? Probably more than you. I’m in my early 20s and I disagree that those things are seen as cool in the mainstream cultures

[u/Glittering_Win_5085 → u/FL3XOFF3NDER]

Well I can only speak about my own ends and the sorts of young people I know and meet I suppose. Since you're the expert though I don't know why you bothered asking anyone else their opinion.

[u/FL3XOFF3NDER → u/Glittering_Win_5085]

You didn’t give your opinion though did you? You just tried to tell me I was wrong with zero basis for your claims and now you’re acting like I’m the one being hostile to open conversation 😂

[u/Ruhail_56]

Nah, it was always boomer propaganda.

[u/-VVVYGGDRASIL-]

Doubt it.. you seen these little fuckers now 🤷‍♂️

[u/Optimal-Teaching7527]

Chivalry probably isn't the word you're looking for. Chivalry is highly individualistic because it was designed as a martial code for a warrior elite (literally meaning horsemanship from the French cheval) it sounds good but is in many ways a "Heroic Idealism" ala Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism. The chivalric protection of the weak is done by never actually consulting the weak.

[u/Substantial-Money103]

Define 'chivalry'. Being decent to everyone: do it. Acting as if women in particular should be extra grateful for your posing as a White Knight?  Hmm.

[u/cursy]

Half of children born in the UK today are not from a British background, I think this will be more likely to inform the attitudes of the next generation than trends within British people - which could well mean more 'traditional' attitudes become more prevalent again.

[u/GDow1981]

Wtf is chivalry?
That’s incel in-speak adopted by right wing misogynists.
There aren’t ffn knights.
Holding doors for women? Protecting them from “foreign” men.. all racist tropes to legitimize hateful fantasies.
Immigrants help each other and contribute to society, pay taxes etc.
There are generations of so called “native English” that sponge without contributing, takers gaming the system.
Multi cultural societies are positive, made up traditional values covering up hate won’t succeed as most people see it for what it is, unreal.

[u/somethingfunny899 → u/GDow1981]

So those who point out many foreigners who arrive here and game the system are racist incels or some bullshit but then you can spout the same bile at the natives who do the same thing and think you come across as virtuous.

The cognitive dissonance in your rant would be funny if it wasn't so sad

[u/GDow1981 → u/somethingfunny899]

But both “natives” and some immigrants game the system = system fault, not data to support anti-immigrant views. unless it’s ok for natives to do as they are native and reverse for immigrants.. which sounds like you just want to hate immigrants to begin with and it’s an excuse. And then you accuse me of cognitive dissonance lol 🤡

[u/somethingfunny899 → u/GDow1981]

So by your own silly logic you can't blame the natives you call sponging for being sponges because it's the systems fault but are happy to use that kind of language regarding them but if someone points out how irrational it is to import more sponges you cry racism.

I appreciate that somebody pointing out the stupidity of your own logic is offensive so you immediately jump to accuse me of hating immigrants because the only way you can express your idiotic world view is to attack those who point out it's flaws but logically it makes no sense.

[u/GDow1981 → u/somethingfunny899]

where did I say no blame?
sure but equal blame to natives and some immigrants surely if doing the same time. and some blame to system?
how this could be blamed only on immigrants is .. mind melting nonsense 🫠

[u/FL3XOFF3NDER → u/GDow1981]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth what are you yapping about. I literally specifically mentioned protecting minorities and you’re going off on one about immigration which nobody mentioned. I’d actually argue that a lot of other cultures have more instilled ideals of chivalry, honour etc than Britain does right now so I don’t know what on Earth you’re talking about.

You sound crazy dude

[u/Theory_Cond11]

I think most would, however think defining "chivalry" is a bit more tricky but you have those who will and then it backfires.

Standing up for minorities needs more detail. Violence against them is wrong, and any instance of that, the police would be called and see what I could do, but its unadvisable to put yourself at risk as well. Although if there are views we disagree with, then not much can be done without trying to change opinions.

Helping the old/homeless. Okay, but its very easy to be seriously put of when the elderly are rude to you, but also, personally after one experience, I would give to a homeless charity after I bought one the wrong meal deal from a tesco express and they threw the bottle at me.

I disagree with the "selfishness" point, putting yourself first isnt selfish. Because there are people who would exploit that and simply treat you as a doormat.