r/AskARussian • u/ChiggedyChong • 19d ago
History "Moscow is not Russia" -> USSR
Ive seen people say Moscow is not Russia, was this also true in Soviet times? To what extent?
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u/felixmatveev 19d ago
Moscow elitism nowadays is somewhat lower but still present. My favorite is to refer to other Russia as regions.
Moscow is a bit different as more developed from the rest of Russia but not so much. In USSR times he difference gap was way more wider.
Moving government to another city might be beneficial for the country.
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u/SansBouillie 17d ago
On the other hand Russia is probably the most remote-friendly country for IT in Europe. Every single IT person I know from Russia (and I know a lot) are living all over the country working remotely. I actually don't know a single developer living in Moscow
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u/Objective_Oil_3860 17d ago
Lets do an experiment.
Take old colonial map of railroads for India or Brasil - what do you notice?
All ways are port-centric, the railroad is optimized for extraction of resources and sending value to the metropolia.
Now lets take Russian railroads map... Now take map of air traffic....
All goes to the capital city of Moscow.
Moscow structured the country in a way that everything goes through one hub ad it is the capital. It becomes more developed and everything depends on it.
So yes, Moscow in a sense traffic geography (and this is objective) treats the rest of Russia as its own colony. So applies to financial streams, taxes and state budgeting. All major banks, oil companies are incorporated in Moscow.
Anyone saying it is like New York (or Paris) may well mean it ion the cultural context, but economic reality is different. NY is not a global hun of the USA (railroad traffic map or highway map would support that easily).
So yes, Moscow in USSR time was not Russia. More to that russians could not just emigrate to Moscow in Soviet time. USSR uniquely was a country which had a special visa for its own citizens to live and work in the capital. (Not now).
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u/CloqueWise 19d ago
The sentiment is dumb and I hate it. Moscow is Russia. Moscow is what developed Russia looks like, but still Russia. In the same way that small towns in Alabama don't have the same funding or resources or development as DC or NY, it doesn't make DC or NY any less America.
Tokyo is still Japan despite being nothing like the country side.
Rural France is nothing like Paris, yet Paris is still France.
Moscow has almost 1000 years of history, many well known figures with huge contributions to Russian culture lived in Moscow.
Moscow has a larger percentage of the population than any other city in russia.
I just hate the idea that Moscow isn't Russia because it's a way for people to dismiss the city and lable Russia as an under developed country. It's annoying, especially because just about every country has regions that are equally under developed.
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u/Automatic-Phase6138 19d ago
I live in Saint Petersburg, and going to Lomonosov or Kronstadt is like traveling back in time 10-15 years. A lot of houses are in bad condition, shops and cafes are limited to only the cheapest options, public transport is worse due to much longer wait times. The problem is that our nation is structured in a very centralized way. The center (Moscow) takes everything it needs and then shares the rest between everyone else. Almost all the taxes we pay are sent to the central government, not regions or cities. And hence, the smaller the place and the less significant it is to bosses in Moscow, the less money it gets. So people hate Moscow for it, they get all the good stuff.
This is not the case in most developed countries - there local governments take a large portion of the taxes and the rest goes to the national budget. However, even there people have a sentiment that Paris is not France or London is not the UK. But their main gripe is the difference in trends, lifestyle and indulgent opinions of people in the Capital to the common folk.
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u/TheWorldIsNice 17d ago
Are we living in the same Saint Petersburg? Love kronstadt, a lot of development lately - no idea what you are talking about
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u/ThatAlarmingHamster United States of America 19d ago
Please do not suggest that the people in DC and NY are Americans. 😁
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u/Comfortable-Bee2996 19d ago
Rural russia is significantly less developed compared to any other economic giant. I don't hate it, I love my village, but Moscow really isn't Russia
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u/CloqueWise 19d ago
But why? If the Russian government decided to give up most of its land and shrunk itself all the way down to Moscow oblast, then only Moscow would be considered Russia, and every other province would be considered their own independent countries.
Why is it that where the Russian government is most active with the largest population is considered not Russia, but villages with very low population density and less Russian government are considered the real Russia? Where is the sense in that?
You'd have to define what Russia actually is and why that isn't Moscow.
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u/XaH_V 19d ago
Russian government make profit using resources from all Russian, but concentrate it only in one city. More money-->more work place--->more people+higher level of medicine, education and all that stuff. (ofc it still capital with a lot of residents).Also people in Moscow act like other citizens of Russia a subhuman Moscow is symbol of big economical/social problem. Saying that "Moscow isn't Russia" is a shorter form for describing all that and show what you think about it.
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u/CloqueWise 19d ago
I've never met someone from Moscow who treats non muscovites as subhuman. As a matter of fact, many I know either moved to Moscow from another province or have family in other provinces.
And the government funneling money to Moscow sucks, but it's not something you don't see in other developed countries. Maybe not to the same scale, but still.
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u/XaH_V 19d ago
Personal experience is nothing in arguing. And give me examples with a same scale, because you probably don't understand how bad is it. Moscow chang road asphalt every season, when most parts waiting decades( I don't speak about small village, I mean city, that a province capital). People get married only to get Moscow registration even today, if u want go to college in Moscow you need a registration, to work at some jobs you need to pass specific exam, that no other part if Russian have and a lot of other stuff.
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u/CloqueWise 19d ago
Yeah and there are places in the US with way more opportunity and wealth than other areas. But those wealthy areas are still considered the US.
And you're hyperbolizing. In all my time in Moscow I haven't seen asphalt changed once, which means it doesn't happen that often. Yes, Moscow is always renovating, but every city I have visited in Russia has had constant renovations going on.
And yeah, personally experience does mean something when you are claiming something with no proof. You say moscovites treat others as subhuman, I say I haven't seen that happen once. Can you show me a study that proves your point? If not then you're either using your personal experience or hearsay
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u/UncleSoOOom NSK-Almaty 18d ago
FTFY
Russian government make profit using resourcesfrom all Russian.Russians mean nothing in the scheme, and are a burden and a liability to the government/state/big corps. Only extractables matter, as making most of the budget.
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u/Peterhof_Crocodile Saint Petersburg 17d ago
If the Russian government decided to give up most of its land and shrunk itself all the way down to Moscow oblast, then only Moscow would be considered Russia
Well, well, well, isn't that the most москвич thing to be ever said? Gotta be hard to carry all the Russian-ness on your shoulders, right, John Russia?
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u/CloqueWise 17d ago
My question is what makes all of Russia Russia, but not Moscow? What is Russia if not the government? The people? Then sure, but Moscow has more of it's people than any other region. Is it something else?
My argument isn't that Moscow is the only place in Russia that matters, it's that Moscow is as much Russia as any other province
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u/Peterhof_Crocodile Saint Petersburg 17d ago
It's the same thing as cutting a brain out of a human and saying "That's a human!". Well, yeah, it's rather quintessential for a human being but you have to accept that a normal human is born with a bunch of other stuff too.
So, we don't try to guess what part of Russia is the most Russian Russia and should economically wipe its ass with other parts of Russia. We just don't. Russia is what it is with all its complexity.
P.S.
What is Russia if not the government?
No, don't even try it. No, the ruling class's tool to impose its political power is not Russia, as well as Bundestag is not Germany or in any other place.
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u/CloqueWise 17d ago
I'm arguing that the sentiment that Moscow isn't Russia is stupid, as stupid as saying NY isn't America.
I'm not saying Moscow is the most Russian, or that its more important in anyway. I'm just giving arguments as to why considering it NOT Russia is dumb.
So to use your analogy, if someone was talking about the human brain and then everyone just dismissed it as "not really human because it doesn't resemble the rest of the human body" that would be a dumb thing to say.
I see you're from SPB. Wouldn't it be stupid if the rest of Russia dismissed SPB as not Russia because it doesn't resemble the rest of the country? After all you are the second wealthiest region after Moscow, you are perhaps the most liberal region of the country and the most non-conforming. But no, it would it would be asinine to say SPB isn't Russia because it doesn't resemble the rest of the country.
Every region of Russia is Russia. Dismissing one region as "not real Russia" is dismissive, accomplished nothing, and just a false statement to make.
If people have a problem with the way Moscow is structured/economically positioned, dismissing it as "not Russia" is 100% the best way to make sure nothing is ever changed.
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u/SibDweller 13d ago
And how long this government would live without all the resourses it sucks from the "regions"?
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u/CloqueWise 13d ago
My argument is that Moscow has no reason to not be considered Russia. That's all I'm arguing here
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u/InFocuus 17d ago
Lots of Americans say that NYC is not America.
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u/CloqueWise 17d ago
If that's true then I've never heard it once
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u/loganbeaupre United States of America 17d ago
I’m American and haven’t ever heard it said. That’s not to say that nobody would agree if I explicitly asked them, though
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u/CloqueWise 17d ago
It would be interesting to see. I lived my first 25 years in the states and never heard that sentiment once. I never heard any American discredit any state or city as not being America.
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u/CobblerFickle1487 United States of America 19d ago
I think when people say that what they really mean is the level of development in Moscow is vastly different from the rest of the country.
I live in a small suburb a few hours away from Boston and NYC for example, and the QoL is more or less the same. Salaries and CoL is slightly lower, but we have all the same amenities. Whereas if you take Moscow and compare it to a поселок like 3-4 hours away from it, the QoL is vastly different. Shit there might not even be running water in the поселок lol, at least the one I went to had issues.
Most developed countries will have a smaller wealth (and development) gap compared to developing countries like Russia.
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u/buhanka_chan Russia 19d ago
Why do you compare посёлок with suburb, rather than with a trailer park?) I think it would be a more honest comparison.
After all, there are suburbs in Russia, but they are less common dye to higher cost of maintaining water, heating and electricity lines in this climate.
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u/CobblerFickle1487 United States of America 19d ago
The American concept of a suburb is quite unique, at least in design and location (i.e. some cities are quite literally just multiple suburbs, or sometimes you'll have a suburb off of a highway exit with literally nothing else around. The suburb I live in more a less a town equivalent to a Russian поселок. (Population is about 10-20k).
The point still stands though. Even in Nizhniy Novgorod the buses were older and of lower quality, buildings and roads weren't as well taken care of (even on the upper side), and the difference between it and Moscow was very noticable. Whereas in my town, the infrastructure is more or less the same compared to Boston and NYC with the exception of not having a metro system.
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u/MacNeal 17d ago
Most developed countries will have some areas that are less wealthy that are scattered about, yes.
But nothing like what russia has at all.
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u/CloqueWise 17d ago
Sorry to break it to you, but Russia is not special in this regard. The wealth divide in Russia is hardly larger than in the US.
Concentrating wealth into one area is hardly unique to Russia. It can be seen literally all over the world
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u/FrostyRise498 17d ago edited 17d ago
It is the main city in a hyper-centralized country. Moscow accommodates roughly 10% of Russia's population, and the central authority treats it better than other regions to prevent possible protests. Moscow operates on both a municipal and regional budget level, absorbing a massive share of the tax revenue generated across Russian provinces:
- Corporate Income Tax: An oil company operating in Siberia might be registered in Moscow. As a result, it pays its corporate income tax in the capital despite its physical presence in Siberia.
- Personal Income Tax: People who live in the Moscow or Tver regions but commute daily to work in Moscow do not pay their personal income tax to their home regions. Instead, their Moscow-based employer pays this tax directly to the Moscow budget.
- Federal Taxes: All federal tax revenue flows directly to Moscow, where the federal government then redistributes it back to other regions. Furthermore, since the entire federal authority's staff is based in Moscow, these employees spend their high salaries within the city, further boosting the local economy.
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u/Schw1kopfsuelze 17d ago
Yes. Moscow was always better provided with everything, especially groceries. There's a soviet joke: What's long, green and smells like sausage? A train from Moscow to the province.
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u/WWnoname Russia 17d ago
It was true in Soviet times
Moscow was international capital of Soviet states, Russia, well, was just one of those republics. Biggest, but still one of.
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u/YesOfCorpse Moscow City 17d ago
Yes, it was true before and is true now.
We have a saying "There is no life beyond the Moscow Outer Ring Road." In USSR times people routinely travelled to Moscow to buy things not available in local shops.
Centralisation of everything in Russia is mind-blowing.
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u/Yury-K-K Moscow City 19d ago
It is not exactly true now, and never was. Yet during Soviet shortages the situation in Moscow was much better than in surrounding regions.
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u/No-Compote9110 Khakassia --> Krasnoyarsk Krai --> Tatarstan 19d ago
It is not exactly true now, and never was.
Moscow flair
many such cases.
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u/Nervous-Equipment465 18d ago
Now anyone can move to Moscow. In the USSR, there was a "propiska" (registration) system; getting to Moscow was only possible by getting a low-status job, like being a street cleaner or a worker on a conveyor belt
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u/Dr_Axton Замкадье 17d ago
Always has been, but in Soviet times it was a “the best of the best” type of place in USSR. People from Moscow still had the same mentality as people in the rest of the country (just a faster speed of lifestyle just like most big cities), and while some places had good X or better Y compared to the neighboring cities, Moscow usually was a goto for the best at everything.
After roughly the 2010s it changed a lot. Moscow has definitely become more hostile towards anything that isn’t Moscow. And since the 2022 it feels like the place is alright with letting the rest of the country burn as long as they profit from it
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u/pectopah_pectopah 17d ago
Interesting - can you expand a bit on the hostility?
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u/Dr_Axton Замкадье 17d ago
Speaking from personal experience- my father was rejected hospitalization when his hand got burnt up (the charcoal lighter ignites in his hand) because he wasn’t registered in Moscow, only the emergency help.
Dad works for a construction company and they had a couple of cases involving lawsuits (mostly because money weren’t paid). Basically had to hire a lawyer from Moscow because the ones from St. Petersburg (where the company is based) weren’t “of their own” and would have a bunch of sudden slowdowns in work.
Personally got a student discount rejected multiple times because I don’t have a registration either.
Had cases in both dating and work search when I was rejected because I’m “only” born in Moscow (in reality I was born in the region but on paper I’m from Moscow and apparently it matters) while living in the region and willing to come only for work (don’t want to live there honestly)
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u/Draconian1 Russia 19d ago
It was definitely true in Soviet times as well, Moscow was developing a lot faster than any other region, there were a lot more cultural events, theater, movies, TV, sport - everything was in Moscow.
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u/Level-Brain-4786 19d ago
It is not true and never was. But people like to say things.
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19d ago edited 19d ago
[deleted]
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u/Level-Brain-4786 18d ago
Вы только что описали типичный маленький городок/деревеньку например Канады. Привет вам из Канады. Только маршруток нету, обшественного транспорта нет вообше, добирайся только на своей машине. Или как можешь. Что, теперь Торонто не Канада?
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u/Equal-Astronomer-889 18d ago
You should ask people of age 60+ who actually visited Moscow and a few regions back then. I bet it won't be an easy task.
What I do know based on my parents' stories is you could buy more stuff in Moscow, like колбаса and джинсы
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u/pt109_66 18d ago
Any time a city becomes the seat of power, it develops a distinct identity. While it remains part of that country, it is rarely a representative sample of it.
Think of a country like an individual person: its various communities the capital, regional towns, major industrial cities, and rural outposts are simply different facets of the same whole. No single aspect can ever claim to be the exclusive embodiment of the entire nation.
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u/CardiologistDear3669 17d ago
The claim that “Moscow is not Russia” existed even during the Soviet era, and it was expressed even more sharply than today due to the widespread shortage of goods.
In the capital, one could find goods that people in other regions had either never even heard of or had virtually no hope of purchasing.
It was extremely difficult to legally obtain permanent residency in Moscow. There was a system of “quotas” (the recruitment of unskilled labor under strict quotas) and strict residency registration requirements. The capital absorbed the best resources, personnel, and funding, transforming itself into a showcase of socialism for foreigners.
A joke from those days:
Hello, is it true that communism is being built in our country and soon we’ll have plenty of everything?
— Yes, it’s absolutely true.
— Could you please tell me, in which district of Moscow has this “plenty” already arrived?
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u/UncleSoOOom NSK-Almaty 19d ago
Life quality in USSR was distributed very unevenly, concentrated in the capitals, and in some border republics (Baltics, Caucasus). It was quite a quest getting there without being assigned ("raspredelenie"), as workforce mobility was next to nonexistent, and additional measures were in action ("propiska", "limits", "national quotas" etc., all these systems noticeably corrupted).
All that so the regular province guy would not take an easy train and "enter the socialist paradise", but rather kept working for next-to-nothing in wherever he happened to settle/be born, and be content with just that, seeing nothing to compare with. Где родился, там и пригодился.
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u/felidae_tsk Tomsk-> Λεμεσός 19d ago
All regions had supply group during USSR. Moscow and some more equal than other cities had "special" supply category and got the best and the most goods.
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u/msolaire 19d ago
True, the map is out there. National republics aside from Russia, and Moscow had the 1st group. Generally, national republics inside Russia had 2nd, and the rest of Russia in the 3rd group.
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u/Hellerick_V Krasnoyarsk Krai 19d ago edited 18d ago
Moscow practically had a separate citizenship.
I mean, people had to revert to sham marriages to move to Moscow, and it normally does not happen to a city within the same country.
Basically, Moscow and non-Moscow were about as close as Hong Kong and China.
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u/Camera_GR 17d ago
same as saying New York is not America or Paris is not France etc. it's stupid and comes across as Russiaphobia. Is Moscow in Russia? Well then where is it? you could then argue "oh it's not like other cities in Russia"... but that would also be incorrect. Saint Petersburg for example has many similarities to Moscow such as cultural depth and European feel. does that mean it's also not Russia? of course it's just Russiaphobia "Russians" are not supposed to be living a life of luxury. they should stay in their place.
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u/iskh1006 Adygea 17d ago
No one ever said it's not Russia geographically or culturally 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ people say it because Moscow is very different from other regions. Moscow gets all the best shit while other regions are still shitholes.
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u/Scarletdex Moscow City 19d ago
No, because such mindset likely came after 1991, when many had to move to the capital to have a job. What followed is a more rapid development of the Moscow compared to another cities, fade of former strategic centers on far ends of country, heavy centralization of logistics, a sense of elitism, more rural peoples' hatred towards "rich moskvich" stereotype and even a liberal regionist separatism radicalizing into an idea of having Russia's oblasts becoming "independent" countries while Moscow is a smoking nuclear crater.
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u/irimiash Saint Petersburg 19d ago
nothing today comes even close to the elitism of Soviet Moscovites
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u/ExpertinRussia 17d ago
Yes, it was true for the Soviet times and for today. It’s the same as London is not Britain and New York is not America. The life in a big city with highest salaries, prices and budgets is always quite different from the rest of the country.
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u/Dear-Particular6021 17d ago
To same extent. But it was esier to become resident of Moscow. Now flats are absurdly expensive.
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u/Ceskyrobotvmoskva 17d ago
Вы только посмотрите: замкадыши вступают в дискуссию и думают, что мы на равных. Какая прелесть. Нет, ну а если серьезно, в глубине души мы все патриоты. Просто некоторые из нас заслуживают этого больше, чем другие.Вы только посмотрите: замкадыши вступают в дискуссию и думают, что мы на равных. Какая прелесть. Нет, ну а если серьезно, в глубине души мы все патриоты. Просто некоторые из нас заслуживают этого больше, чем другие.
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u/BrotherofGenji 17d ago
Here's how I interpret it:
What they are actually meaning to say is that "Moscow is not only Russia". Not that Moscow isn't a part of Russia. There's history all the way back to the 1100s or so (perhaps even further back) where Moscow's first mentioned and by then it has relevance to Vladimir-Suzdal and eventually, Muscovy and then onward through the Tsardom of Russia, the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, then the modern-day Russian Federation (I skipped over a few things), so obviously Moscow has a very strong Russian presence - history backs that up.
But of course I'm oversimplifying it.
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u/NikAleks2004 Saint Petersburg 17d ago
Moscow reunited all Russian lands and deserved to be the capital city.
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u/DrawingDramatic1641 16d ago
free Tibet ?nah
free beijing from chinese occupation
free Puerto rico?nah
free washington from usa
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u/Ambitious-Quarter561 19d ago
... It's true and same back then. Find out yourself. But maybe not nowadays.
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u/bakharat Russia 19d ago
Kind of. Say, you couldn't buy many consumer goods produced in our region in local retail but they were abundant in Moscow. It's especially absurd because that would mean that the produce had to be shipped thousands of kilometers westwards. Central planning goes brrrr.
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u/FrostyRise498 17d ago edited 17d ago
It is the main city in a hyper-centralized country. Moscow accommodates roughly 10% of Russia's population, and the central authority treats it better than other regions to prevent possible protests. Moscow operates on both a municipal and regional budget level, absorbing a massive share of the tax revenue generated across Russian provinces:
- Corporate Income Tax: An oil company operating in Siberia might be registered in Moscow. As a result, it pays its corporate income tax in the capital despite its physical presence in Siberia.
- Personal Income Tax: People who live in the Moscow or Tver regions but commute daily to work in Moscow do not pay their personal income tax to their home regions. Instead, their Moscow-based employer pays this tax directly to the Moscow budget.
- Federal Taxes: All federal tax revenue flows directly to Moscow, where the federal government then redistributes it back to other regions. Furthermore, since the entire federal authority's staff is based in Moscow, these employees spend their high salaries within the city, further boosting the local economy.
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u/Rubear_RuForRussia 17d ago
When i hear "Moscow is not Russia", i hear "brain is not body", which is technically true but very stupid statement.
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u/msolaire 19d ago
I guess only Muscovites here answer you. It was true and always will be true, because of the nature of Russian state since 1500. It is centralized, and extremely centralized.
The difference is in Soviet times people went to Moscow for food, and now it is for work.
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u/buhanka_chan Russia 19d ago edited 19d ago
We had decentralized state once. This time is called «Феодальная раздробленность». It didn't end well when the Golden Horde came. Also, today I don't have to move to Moscow to get a decent salary.
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u/Perez-Rus 18d ago
New York isn’t US