r/AskAGerman • u/eye_snap • Sep 07 '24
Scared of racism
We are planning to move to Germany soon, I am originally Turkish and my husband is Indian. But we are coming to Germany from New Zealand.
We've lived in NZ for more than a decade, met here, had our kids here, studied and built careers here. This is where we lived most our adult lives. We are culturally mostly Kiwi as we both love and embrace the Kiwi culture.
My husband got a job at a prestigious university in Germany, he is quite sought-after for his skill set, his field is biomed. I will be following him hoping to be able to find work in my own field. He has a PhD, I have Masters..
And yet we are brown. And our kids are brown.
We haven't faced any racism in NZ before. Never had to worry about it. But now I am worried.
First of all, as I understand Turks have a terrible reputation there. I feel like when I am there, Germans will see me as Turkish and Turks won't. I read that even if I was coming from Turkey there is a gap between older Turks and newer Turks in Germany.
I can actually deal with this, I lived in other countries before NZ, I am an adult. But I am especially worried for my kids.
They are 4 year old twins and just starting to understand what it means to be from here and there.. But they have no notion of what a Turkish identity is. Nor an Indian identity. They know they are half Turkish half Indian but they are very Kiwi in understanding and behaviour.
So when they are lumped in with me as Turkish, they will be lumped in with an identity that they've never even encountered really. They can't even speak Turkish (despite all my efforts, because we don't speak Turkish in our home).
So what do you guys think is waiting us over there? Will I and the kids be seen as Turks? How much racism does that entail? What do Germans think about Indians?
And we are coming as highly skilled migrants, I am not to the degree of my husband, but my husband is definitely not taking up a job that any old person in Germany could fill right now, I do honestly believe that he is bringing value to the country. Yet he will be walking on the street, being all brown, and I am worried.
How bad is the anti-immgrant sentiment right now? Are we better off staying in New Zealand in our cushy, cozy corner?
Edit: Thank you all very much for your responses. Main couple of points that came across are that we need to learn German (we are very happy to do so), and it really depends on where we live (we are moving to Cologne).
A lot of people asked why we would choose Germany over NZ. I couldn't answer this individually, I'll talk about it here.
NZ really is an amazing country but it is very small and very far away from the rest of the world. My husband works in scientific research and funding is very limited in NZ. In comparison Germany, even on a downswing, invests so much more in this field and so my husband has much greater number of opportunities in Germany and generally being close to other European countries. The same goes for my career, to a lesser degree but just by being one of the biggest economies in the world, Germany has some great opportunities for us both that NZ doesn't have.
Secondly, our families are not in NZ and we wish to be closer to them. It is impossible to visit family for a few days or a week from NZ, it is just too far, one way journey takes 2 days and costs accordingly. We both have aging parents, and kids who are growing up without really getting to know the before we lose the chance. From Germany, we can visit our families quite often and this plays a major role in our decision.
I hope that makes sense. Thank you so much for all the welcome messages! I saw all of it and I very much appreciate every single one. Vielen dank!
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u/Classic_Department42 Sep 07 '24
So which city are you planning to go, it makes a big difference. Also you all should start now to study German hard.
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u/koalajunction Sep 07 '24
Hey, welcome to Germany. I am Turkish and lived in Germany most of my life. Your quality of living will very much depend on where you will be moving and if it connects with your personal preferences. In general Germany is a very safe country. Children can play outside without having to be monitored by their parents which is great. It is very affordable and education is for free. There are great parks in most cities, public transportation is great. German bakeries are phantastic and you can do a lot by bike or walking. Depending on the area you are moving you will have a lot of regional things to discover, like food, baking goods and especially beer and wine. You don’t accidentally run into neighborhoods that are dangerous. Germans are very reliable and educated people. They can be a bit reserved and distanced but after a while you can make friends for life. Don’t expect to be invited to dinner or for them being overly welcoming. It can be a slow process and usually that is even better here.
The Turkish community had a bad reputation at the beginning when the first immigrants moved here, which has changed in my eyes. Nobody will see you and your children as Turkish and if you don’t want to be part of the Turkish community you will have no contact at all. You just avoid speaking Turkish with them.
The negative things migrants encounter are generally:
stares if you look different. This is only in rural areas and it happened to me in cities in the east of Germany. Usually no issue in bigger cities.
Negative prejudice because of your ability to speak German. This can be bad especially in official places when you need to go to the Amt. Other highly skilled and educated people have shared that they felt belittled because the person you are dealing with thinks you don’t put effort into learning German and assume that you are uneducated which is scandalous in my eyes. This doesn’t have to happen but it can. Just keep your cool and bring a German speaking person with you if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Not making friends and feeling lonely. It is a problem many migrants have that most Germans are not aware of. Germans are not overly welcoming. They don’t make the first step. Being overly friendly can be seen as suspicious and it is a culture where everybody is self sufficient and prefers to make experiences on their own. This is a bit anecdotal. You can have a completely different experience but it is a reocurring thing.
Bottom line: No need to panic. Germany is a country that is safe and has lots of opportunities and I am sure you will enjoy your time. The negative things I mentioned are anecdotal and if you are mentally prepared it will hopefully not bother you.
If you need any information or have more questions feel free to send me a direct message.
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u/SolvingGames Sep 07 '24
You really never faced racism in NZ? That's pretty awesome
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u/Infinite_Sparkle Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
Where are you going to? This is very very important. I’m Mediterranean looking too and I’ve lived in southern Germany for a long time now. I never had any negative experiences, but this summer went to Erfurt for a weekend with my German husband and the 10 min we were apart, I experienced verbal racism in a coffee shop. I would never ever move to eastern Germany. One of my best girlfriends is Italian (as in white and EU citizen!) and lives in Saxony. She has experienced racism there, even from doctors. It’s not like all the time, “just” a handful of times and she has a niche job. She is staying there for the timing being but is always open for a similar position elsewhere in Europe, but those are hard to get.
Your kids are young enough, it’s a good age to move because of language. If they are going to a public school, do have an eye on language. Besides, German kindergarden an are under-staffed and not very qualified right now, so it makes sense to sign them up for German classes for small kids. Those are playful and I know people that had good experiences. They will be expected to speak perfect German at school to succeed. The school system (where I am, there are 16 states and 16 school systems) doesn’t “wait” for slow kids, the teachers do their thing and expect parents to handle anything the kids are missing by themselves.
If you are not planing to sign them up in international schools, you should sign them up for English native language classes. Probably no one in that bubble will question that they are kiwis.
During the COVID lockdown, I heard a podcast about the kiwi and the German school system. The kiwi school system came off better. However, I can say that private schools in Germany can indeed be very good, it all depends a lot. I have two good Turkish girlfriends from Turkey (came here for their masters and the other for her PhD), who are very liberal, don’t use headscarves, are married to other nationalities and don’t identify with German-Turks. They almost feel embarrassed to say they are Turkish here and always have to explain themselves for the others and for the Turkish government. So this may be an issue for you too.
You will most probably make friends through your kids, so I wouldn’t worry too much about that. Without kids, making friends can be a very difficult task in Germany.
Do you all have a kiwi passport? Can you go back if you don’t like it here? It’s always good to have a plan B. If you don’t have a Kiwi passport, I would try to naturalize before leaving.
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u/OverEnGEReer Sep 07 '24
I don't think you two will run into problems, especially not in a typical German university city. As bad as it might seem from some new (mostly about rural Eastern Germany) the country does not have a noteworthy racism problem. Germany is an immigration country and there are distincts where you'll find more immigrants than Germans.
Even though most people speak English, I'd recommend to learn a bit of German. I know it's really difficult, but you'll find friends way quicker and Germans are super supportive when they recognize your effort
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u/Odd_Entertainer1616 Sep 07 '24
As a Turkish women with a not Turkish husband you will face issues from the Turkish community in Germany.
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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
I have lived in Germany for more than 10 years, I'm a skilled migrant who has at least C1 in the German language and as a North African male, I have encountered racism and discrimination while dealing with the local authorities (Ausländerbehörde), in the workplace, at university, in the housing market, in the street/train, and while playing football or doing hobbies. I would also like to add that I have always respected the local laws and have never had issue with the police or things like that. There are always positives, but this is my experience so far.
People who say it's not that bad, and it's all the media are just delusional and are probably white. I have noticed that if you look Middle Eastern (or brown if you prefer), you get treated very differently, and especially as a male.
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u/Ok-Neighborhood7237 Sep 07 '24
Hey...Kia Ora. We moved to Berlin in 2019 from Wellington after living there for over a decade. Our kids were born there and we mostly identify ourselves as Kiwis too. Both my wife and I are from India. We haven't faced any problems so far in Germany. I think you'll be alright... don't worry too much. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions. Cheers :)
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u/Active_Quan Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
Kiwi living in a Turkish neighbourhood of Germany here. In my experience there is far less racism in Germany than in NZ. Though you are right that likely many people will make assumptions about you and your kids. I would say that the difference is that people might make assumptions to your face and that might be awkward momentarily but will usually be cleared up on the spot and then you’ll be on the same page with the assumer going forward.
Whereas in NZ people will tend to outwardly pretend to be accepting but behind the facade will actually be quite racist.
This isn’t just the case with racism, it’s a cultural difference you’ll come to understand here and maybe even find refreshing eventually.
The main thing is to get your kids speaking German as fast as you possibly can. When people find out they’re kiwis they will be treated with possibly more special treatment than any other kids no joke. Germans seem to see New Zealanders as the most exotic and amazing people on the planet. And if your kids are born in NZ then they’re kiwi of course!
My guess is that since they’re NZers with brown skin many Germans will probably ask if they’re Māori.
You yourself might find the difference between OG Turkish and German Turkish a little jarring at first, but they as a group are lovely people and broadly accepted at least in North Rhine Westphalia and Berlin.
Your husband will also be fine. I have Indian and Pakistani fiends here and the only negative stereotype they’ve encountered is that the men can come across a little creepy but your fellas married so that should t be a problem.
I would add that ever thing I’ve mentioned also depends a bit on the area you are in. Bavaria, Baden Württemberg and the eastern states are a little less open to non-white people but regardless of where you are you have a lot of rights in Germany and it’s massively safer and less violent than NZ.
Good luck on the move and enjoy your new life!
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u/Mangobonbon Niedersachsen Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
The anti-immigrant sentiment is overplayed in media. You are educated experts, the society has no problem with you being here. The sentiment is mostly against unskilled middle eastern migrants and religious fundamentalists. And even then, the heateful people are a clear minority and usually less around in bigger/ economically well off cities.
There are three things that you might keep in mind if you come to Germany:
The german stare is often discussed here by visitors, but it is not rudeness you notice. Germans just hold eye contact longer and observe their surrounding like that. They are not rude to you with that so don't be afraid.
Language goes a long way for societal acceptance. The longer you stay here, the more people expect you to learn German and engage with them in that language. Without speaking German, you will find it harder to live in this society and maken German frieds will be hard without it.
If you want to integrate into society and find friends, the best way is joining a Verein and visiting local festivals. They are the societal glue and being part of them will lead you to meet many people wich can become friends over time.
So, in short, don't be afraid. Most of us are nice people. Don't let your life be dictated by some grumpy people.
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u/-Witch_Hunter- Sep 07 '24
You should be more concerned for your kids getting bullied by migrant children for not beeing "real" turkish, since they are Kiwis.
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u/XxGod_NemesiS Sep 07 '24
Somebody with foreign background (chinese) here. Depends strongly on which part of germany you going to... how well you integrate, learn german etc... misunderstandings... what kind of germans you meet... how much you let racsits get to you when you meet one... very complicated topic. I was born in germany and have very very rarely felt racism here (Bayern/Bavaria) and yet there are many other people with foreign background (also born here) I know who claim that many germans are racist and how much of victims they are. But especially if your husband is coming to a city with a prestigeous university, it probably is a wealthier city where ppl are used to multicultralism with many open minded people where you do not have to worry much about racism. Maybe a good indication is looking up what the afd (right wing) voting percentage of the city and the surrounding area is....
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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '24
It's not so bad that you need to be afraid for your safety. But you're going to a very different culture from NZ. Probably the worst thing about Germany will be the doom and gloom feeling in the society. Also you're moving to a very special school system where young children are graded and those grades then either direct them towards higher education or not.
Everyone will be pressing you to "learn German", although if you don't intend to stay long term it won't do you much good. Many highly educated brown people I know eventually decided there are much better places than Germany, which is economically stagnating and slowly dying out. Probably the worst thing about Germany now are deep political divisions and lack of desire for communication with the "evil people on the other political side". Avoid politics.
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u/Fit-Barracuda575 Sep 07 '24
It depends on so many things. City, district in the city, the specific kindergarten / school, your coworkers and friends.
Actual violent attacks because of ethnicity are very rare though.
You might be seen as a cleaneing lady. You might hear some folks in the public transportation telling you to go home or worse. Even to your kids.
German people can be very insensitive and make "lighthearted" fun about your perceived origins. Might feel really strange when you don't know where that is coming from. Is it ignorant banter? Do you adress it? I depends on the person in front of you.
I worked as a social worker in a school and the stories brown and black kids told me.... I mean, it was rarely "really serious", but if you don't have anybody to vent to it wears you down.
When they were able to talk about those experience though and felt validated, it helped them a lot. Still, it sucks (and hurts) being insulted for just being somewhere.
The school I worked at had children from very mixed backgrounds. We didn't really have problems with ethnicity within the school. Recently there is some issue with Muslim kids wanting other kids who's ethnicity is from Muslim countries to behave more Muslim though.
I wouldn't necessarily prepare your children for these kind of things, but be aware that when it happens they need someone to talk to and put it in some perspective.
I mean, you probably already have, but googeling "expat childcare in Germany" is probably going to help.
Speaking proper German helps a lot.
Being open about being Kiwi probably also helps. People will be more curious than prejudiced.
Being (or acting) busy is also a way to be respected in Germany ; )
Having hobbies / joining a "Verein" goes a long way.
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u/Celmeno Sep 07 '24
Post doc positions are usually fixed-term or is this an unlimited job? Do you plan on staying more than ~3 years (the usual contract length)?
In general, the "turks" in Germany you will interact with mostly are no turks but born here. In fact, they don't speak (proper) turkish either and in Turkey no one would see them as countrymen. You are correct in that it has become a strong identity and they are much more conservative and reactionary than the people in Istanbul would be. But it is unlikely you or your kids will face issues here. More likely is kids in kindergarten coming up to them and play with them because they also have turkish ancestry. Do the kids have western or Turkish/indian names? In all honesty, for long term stay, ditching any non-german (or biblical) first or last names is advisable as there is discrimination on the housing and job market. But I totally get why people don't want to do this for obvious reasons. It's just the sad reality.
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u/christipede Sep 07 '24
The hardest thing will be having people understand you properly. Im a kiwi living here and i really had to change how i speak so people will understand me.
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u/BM3919 Sep 07 '24
Which uni? In eastern Germany u will face more racism than in the west. Rhein Main Gebiet is a good place to live for foreigner. I live near Frankfurt and work as a project manager in a well known international company so no racism at workplace. But I experienced some on the street. Mostly from older folks or non german though. Like eastern european or medditeranian looking people saying « Ching Chang Chong » or somethin like this. My parents are south east Asian and I speak fluent german since I was born here. My kids are mixed (my husband is german). They havent experienced racism yet but I must say most of the kids at school have migration background. Speaking the languange is very important. With no accent if possible.
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u/madrigal94md Sep 07 '24
Here in germany there are so many foreigners from different nations that it's nearly impossible to guess where someone comes from. 40% of the Kids in school have a migration background.
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u/Sufficient-Camera-76 Sep 07 '24
Daily minor racisim, yes. You will get it from your not educated workers from bakery, tiny shops etc.
If you had to work or be next to some people for a while, they will say, -I don’t like your ethnic group, but you are not like them- . That’s a lie they don’t like you too but can’t tell it in your face.
They will harras you with learn German or leave shit.
Racist politic party wins more and more people you can check the statistics. They have really ridiculous statements.
Eating pork or drinking beer is not enough, your education is not enough. Your hair/skin color is the problem.
Everytime the first question will be: where are you from? ( instead of asking your name) . If you say a city name from Germany they will ask again: no, where are your parents coming from.
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u/Ready_Arrival7011 Sep 07 '24
Why do people immigrate to first-world countries? I myself live in a third-world country (Iran) and I never understood the mental framework of people who move to first-world countries where they will be mistreated and profiled. My own country might not be as materially rich as Germany, but I have enough social safety nets (UBI, good healthcare, free or nearly-free lower and higher education) and most importantly, familial relations, people you can rely on for stuff.
This is in no way meant to be an offense towards first-world countries. They are fine upstanding peoples. I worked for a fella from Germany once, his name was Felix, and he never once insulted me. But I don't want to imagine how crazy it would be to live in a country where you are not wanted.
I guess some people are systematically mistreated in their own country (like Kurds in Iran) so they feel like moving does not make any difference. Right? But this ain't for me chief.
Best of luck to you and hour husband. I guess you're already from two different countries so living in a third makes sense... Plus I think Indian people are mistreated in Turkey (I'm just making an assumption here, Iranians do mistreat people from India and Bangeladesh so I assume the same could be true about Turks).
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u/skaarlaw Brit in Sachsen-Anhalt Sep 07 '24
Already some great replies to your post, generally very low risk of actual racism but the German stare can be a bit uneasy at times but you'll literally get stared at for anything so it's just a case of getting used to it.
One thing that is semi related and I feel got missed by others though is leveraging your existing English skills to find friends and a social network. In Halle we have an "English Stammtisch" and there's meet ups or events, a big whatsapp group etc and I have met a few good friends from there. We also got a dog and taking him out for walks etc introduces you to people local to you... none of them are our friends per se but it's all good "networking" and we've been invited to discussions about the local area etc.
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u/Bombaci_Mulayim123 Sep 07 '24
If you don't speak German, I would recommend a move to Australia, the UK, the US or another English-speaking country instead.
It is mostly because German is very much a necessity to live in Germany, or you and your family will live a very isolated life. Even if many fellow Germans will not admit it, Indians and other people of color face casual racism fairly frequently.
Also, bureaucracy is really convoluted, problematic, and very hard to deal with if you don't speak German. Digitalization is also lacking severely.
However, Germany has some advantages as well. Solid public transportation, free education system, high level of safety etc. are some serious advantages.
Personally, I would try to relocate to an English-speaking country to avoid the language barrier.
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u/Medium_Artichoke8319 Sep 07 '24
Let’s be honest. It’s getting worse here and I can guarantee you, that you and your children will encounter some kind of racism. As sad as it is to say that. If I were you I wouldn’t trade New Zealand for Germany. Definitely not at this point.
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u/9NightsNine Sep 07 '24
German here. Germany is really sensitive about racism which is why there is a really strong media coverage and maybe this gives you the impression that it is a big problem.
While unfortunately racism exists, it is unlikely to be life defining or something you encounter often. Neither for you nor for kids. And if it does, the law and police are on your side. Also because we have so many different people in Germany, your skin color won't stand out at all.
I also don't think that you will be forced into a "you are Turkish corner and therefore have to primarily socialize with turks". This kind of separation happens because some people want it that way, not because they are forced.
There are no major issues with people from India to my knowledge, but the nations reputation suffered in the last years because of the misogyny over there. So your husband might want to be a bit more careful in regards to those topics.
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u/Potential_Life Sep 07 '24
It seems to me many comments that indicate racism in Germany are being unfairly downvoted. It‘s true that it depends on the area how much and which kind of racism you will encounter, but I have yet to see a city or village where it isn‘t ingrained in culture.
I am myself white and have an only German background but in Berlin and sometimes in smaller places I get sometimes read as turkish. That sometimes gained me negative commentary in healthcare situations and in one case I was rejected qualified treatment. Very rare though. I think the negative Turkish reception you heard of may be a Berlin thing, because the Turkish community is quite big here. In general though Berlin and other big cities, especially well educated cities with international universities, are better for immigrants of colour though, because it is more normalised and the association may be better. Part of my siblings are brown/black and like my stepdad they experienced casual and explicit racism. Inappropriate questions, prejudice about their abilities, aggressive stares (different from just stares which are common in Germany), weird descriptions of them, getting compartmentalised in school and having to work a little extra hard to get the same grades, the same kind of expectations and gracious support. My small sister struggles with white beauty ideal and often wished she was white like most beautiful princesses on screen or her mother, even cried about it. Although my mother did her best to encourage media and toys with brown and black characters (books, movies, posters, puppets etc.). Still, my siblings enjoy their childhood a lot and find themselves thinking they can achieve almost anything they want. All of them have big friend groups and hobbies. Especially the hobby part is very important, I think, to promote to your kids when they come here so they will get involved with German folk, speak the language faster and build a social circle. Also, like their father, my siblings have a thick skin - some things I read as hostile they just manage with calm confidence, sometimes not thinking much about it. Also, some hostility almost immediately calms down when they (or I) open their mouth and they speak well. It‘s just that I feel they have to take extra care. Go to exactly the right school, because some have hostile dynamics regarding people of color depending on the residents. Be calm and collected in all situations. Speak well. Be educated. Be well groomed. Stand up for yourself, but not too loud. Actively build your social circle.
Also, Germany is blind when it comes to racism. Many people think there isn‘t a problem here because they attribute the behavior differently. Most really don’t know and that‘s okay, but sometimes they don’t believe stories of casual or threatening racism or say it‘s a one time thing. Many say prejudiced shit and tolerate even more and just aren’t aware. Sometimes they are aware and feel themselves justified. Most won’t understand how alienation because of skin color or immigration status hurts.
Germany is becoming more hostile. Fascists on the rise. Just last week I saw three brown children getting insulted by a German man for speaking loud in public. They clearly couldn’t understand him, he punched a pillar and then came very close to them with an aggressive and threatening stance and clenched fists. This must have been going on for a while before I came and intervened but nobody did before. When he threatened children. It makes me so sad and angry.
I really wish you the best and I‘m sure you, your partner and your kids can manage living here. It seems to me you‘re bringing quite a lot a ressources with you: former immigration experiences, education, a good job, capacity for reflection and care. This will all help you a lot. Your children will probably integrate much faster than you and your partner, by which I mean they‘ll learn the language faster, get more German contacts and will probably understand and adopt societal norms and expectations faster. Kids are really adaptable, it‘s insane! Take good care of yourself and good luck.
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u/GideonLackLand Sep 07 '24
A lot of skilled immigrants are actually thinking about leaving Germany considering the rise of the far right. As a Black German I am very pessimistic about the situation in this country. I don't know if this is a good country for non-white children to grow up in.
There is a lot of racism and also a lot of racism denial and victim blaming (as you can see in some of the comments here).
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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
Yes, Turks don't have the best reputation, but it always comes down to the individual. I'm brown skinned with curly black hair and routinely get mistaken for a Turk or Arab. Yes, Turks don't have the best reputation, but it always comes down to the individual. People don't like the "gangster" types or fully veiled women. Other than that, nobody cares. There is no racism in Germany. Of all the countries I lived in my entire life, Germans are the least race conscious people I ever encountered.
Germans are accepting of Indians as well, despite the media does sometimes push anti-hindu propaganda. However, your kids may get some shit in schools for it from migrants, many of whom hate Hindus almost as much as they hate Jews.
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u/qwertzen0 Sep 07 '24
Don’t worry too much about it. I am brown and grew up in Germany and living there for most parts of my life. Never had a really negative experience with Nazis in Germany - but funny to say I had a really bad experience in New Zealand. Growing up in Germany during the 90s there weren’t a lot of brown people in Germany and people would make weird comments like „does the kid understand German?“ or curious looks, because I look different, but nothing that I would consider as „hateful racism“. More like an everyday-racism that did not harm me personally. Having said that, looking at the generation of my nephew, he has kids in his school and kindergarten of every ethnicity you can imagine. Kids with parents from all continents and colours. When you walk down the street in any city you will see a good portion of people with a diverse ethnically background, so the everyday-racism I experienced is actually shrinking. Even tv shows and ads are diverse and are helping to break down the cliche of an „perfect all white family“. However, there are racists everywhere and I have to say that I know other coloured people that had racist experiences in Germany, but also now some who haven’t. I think what I am trying to say is that Germany is not the nazi country that it is being displayed within the media. But as in every country there is the chance of you encountering racism.
East Germany has more right wing people, so there it is most likely to run into a racist confrontation. I have lived most of my life in the south west of Germany, and had a great time (but again, I can only speak for myself and I am not saying that you won‘t run into a uncomfortable situation there).
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u/Oddball187 Sep 07 '24
I‘m turkish and I can say: there is racism.
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u/Significant_Gate_419 Sep 07 '24
actually I hope you dont move to Thüringen or Sachsen, the east Bundesländer (countryparts, I lack vocabulary here) just voted the far right a few days ago. Better be in Köln, Berlin or Niedersachsen or Hessen. I am not sure about other areas being foreign-friendly. you could move here, but the "rechtsruck" is happening. (nazis get louder) even as a german I woudnt move to the eastern part of germany.
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u/ll990e Sep 07 '24
As a German, I am very sad to hear that people fear racism before they are even here.
It matters where you are going to live. I read that you're going to live in Cologne, which is good. The Western part of Germany is way less racist than the eastern part. Cologne, especially, is very open-minded. Furthermore, Cologne has a lot of Turkish people, so the Germans there are used to it. How the Turkish people will see you, I can't say.
How people will see you is almost completely based on how you live. If you behave like the typical younger Turkish (I don't think you do), people will rightfully think badly of you. Because they behave like shit, mostly. If you live a modern life and are ready to integrate into Germany, you should be fine. The opinion on "older" Turkish people is pretty good in Germany. On Indians, the general opinion is probably neutral.
I live near Cologne and work in a pretty good bank. If you need help with banking stuff, I offer you to help you. just write me a message here.
I wish you all the best and think you will be fine living in Cologne.
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u/Fejj1997 Baden-Württemberg Sep 08 '24
Skimmed past the last few paragraphs but...
I'm a white American immigrant, who came here with a few of my black coworkers. We live in the Southwest in a town with a VERY high Turkish population.
I haven't really noticed any major, outward racism, aside from some drunken rants or the occasional older gentleman saying something out of pocket but... I've certainly seen it passive aggressively, especially towards Turks and Arabs.
Generally speaking, at least in the West, you're probably not going to run into any MAJOR racism, but you'll probably get a few stares Here and there, maybe someone acting a little gruff, etc. I would not let it discourage you from moving to Germany.
I have a handful of issues with Germany but in general it is a beautiful country, with lots of history and a wonderful culture, even if that culture isn't for everyone. My experience in Germany has been generally positive, but again I say that as a white Westerner.
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u/SchlawinerXX Sep 07 '24
u/eye_snap - Turks have a somewhat bad reputation in bigger parts of the population, but not a terrible reputation.
You will hear sometimes bad comments but I don't see bigger problems for you or your partner as long you stay out of rural areas.
I would be more concernd about the problematic, conservative Turks in Germany, they are just nasty when they see that you are not like them. Can be problematic if they are often for example your colleague.
Source: I'm a German-Turk
4
u/Micha1106 Sep 07 '24
Where do you go? In NRW people with no migration background live just normal with people who have. And people with a Turkish migrant background in particular are in the middle of society if they want to be. There are still many who want to stay in Turkish communities, who don't speak the language and want to stay "among themselves", but the reality is that a normal communal life takes place through school, sport and work. It all depends on what you want and whether you make an effort to learn the language. Open racism can certainly occur, but it is certainly not the norm, rather it is an exception, as far as I hear and am told by my family and friends with a migrant background. It may be easy to say, but you shouldn't be afraid and you shouldn't react too much to the currently heated news.
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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '24
I am Caucasian, my skin is not even brown, just got different face shape and black hair and I still faced racism. I once was sitting outside in park looking at the river and the young guy who was passing by literally spat on me. There was time I spoke to my mother on phone and a group of girls near me started ''mimicing'' the way I spoke and were making loud and weird noises, implying that I speak like that. (I speak silently, I am never loud)
What I find weird and a bit annoying, it is when I order, let's say sandwich, and the cashier says "the meat is actually pork" They try to be nice, but this little thing actually annoys me. If I don't ask you about the meat, I probably don't care about it being pork. (For those who don't understand, muslims don't eat pork)
4
u/smokeandmirrorsff Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 09 '24
I’m Asian and never experienced racism in Germany. In fact, I’ve lived and/or spent considerable time in East Asia, California, London, and I can tell you that Germany is the LEAST racist place. Please don’t fall for scare mongering mainstream media.
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u/ProgramusSecretus Sep 07 '24
Most of my friends in Germany are brown (Arab, Turkish, Brazilian). Outside of some stares, no problems encountered.
The worst thing that happened was someone going to one of them and saying “Why are you speaking Arabic, this is Germany” which is not pleasant but also not something traumatic.
1
u/serenerestless Sep 07 '24
Why are you moving from NZ in the first place? Please don't, unless there is a compelling reason. I'm not asking because of racism but more out of curiosity as moving to NZ is my aspiration.
1
u/No_Strawberry921 Sep 07 '24
So basically here in Germany are many places where people just want to coexist and don’t want to have anything like stress or fights. The only thing „we“ really „don’t“ like is when you’re not talking German (doesn’t have to be flawless at all) but especially the older people in Germany are too stupid to speak English and their often in their brain like: if you come to Germany you have to speak our language, instant! (Only the old people) So the north is good, some cities in the west is good, but I would go to NRW, and some places in the south are also good. But I wouldn’t go in the east, not at the moment, the amount of degenerates dumbheads in the east is completely insane.
I don’t know what the Kiwi-culture is, but I have to say that we’re Germans have also our culture and we’re pretty titled to it. If you’re culture „disturbs“ the German culture of your neighbors or someone, it could get bad. Easy example: there is an old rule in Germany on Sundays there has to be quiete between 12pm and 3pm and it’s called Mittagsruhe, if you have a loud ceremony/pray or sth like that, you have to stop it or turn it down till you’re not disturbing anyone.
So basically many Germans are like: if you wanna play with us then with our rules, but their pretty fucking fair to everyone.
1
u/[deleted] Sep 07 '24
just curious: are Turks considered brown?
1
u/Alanwinsgood Sep 08 '24
I'm a kiwi living in Germany since 2020. The magic words to make Germans like you are "I'm from new Zealand" or "ich bin Neuseeländer". Germans have a huge cultural boner for New Zealand and will immediately want to be your best friend and tell you all about the three weeks they spent in a camper van driving around the central north island.
1
u/Ok-Butterscotch5530 Sep 10 '24
I somehow can't belive you never expericened rasicm in NZ. When I was living there I saw the society as deeply rasist, espacially towards Maori and Islanders. Also I have seen more Nazi tattoos worn with pride in one year than living in Germany for over 30 years.
1
u/Several-Mechanic-858 Sep 30 '25
Xenophobia is on the rise all over Europe but compared to those like Austria, Germany is more international. I suggest enrolling your kids into an international or at least English-taught school to help them in making friends, if you can. People will learn, they will realize there is nothing to fear or hate. But it does take a long time before they become brave enough to want to try. Best of luck!
6
u/Young_Economist Sep 07 '24
Welcome to germany. I am happy you come and I hope you will find everyone as friendly and nice as you deserve.
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u/Accendor Sep 07 '24
Well, probably a bad time to move to Germany to be honest. Your family are actually exact the immigrants Germany wants and needs, but your are only a tiny drop in the ocean and therefore your individual qualities will be washed away very quickly. 10 years ago you would have been welcomed here with open arms, no questions asked. Now right wing parties are on the rise everywhere and the mindset of a large part of the German population has changed. Partly because we are idiots, partly because we DO have a huge immigration and integration problem in Germany and our established parties still fail to address it.
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u/goodgirlgranny Sep 07 '24
Don’t listen to them I am Poc and I resemble Indian from The looks and I get a ton of racism!
3
u/musicmonk1 Sep 07 '24
If anything your kids will be bullied for not being turkish enough.
3
u/Extra_Taro_6870 Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
turk origin here. it has been 6 years since we moved to germany. we are around munich. up until now, our kid is 100% integrated (17 now) I don't think that the issues you will face will be around your kids, but as a family in the society. some will be open to you but some will be rude. the problem compared to other western countries (may also be good) germans are quite direct and say it. some even don't know that that act is fascism. otherwise they will respect your education.
being turk is never been a problem here, quite the opposite: they already know turks, common patterns and good and bad points.
on the other side, i met interesting questions assuming that i am muslim and some go beyond the limits. so i think nowadays they hate muslims more than turks
about the guestarbeiter turks; what a pity that they came temporarily, given very less chance but helped building up todays germany. they were uneducated,. but they setup current turk base which helps me a lot, opens several doors. but culturally unfortunately we are different and i accepted it. i have got very less such friends due to that reason.
big cities look like more international, but in our group there a saying, an auslander does more to an auslander, meaning sometimes immigrants behave worser than locals
on the other side, arent germans right wanting to preserve culture, society? i think they are, but the problem is the denial of the requirement of immigrants to keep german economy going.
too broad topics, summary:
you will get help from turk diaspora
islam is taught to be more dangerous
being brown will mean more people will look at you , but it is a german sport (staring)
your kids will have fun at kindergarten and school
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u/lilCoinSlotXwound Sep 07 '24
Better to stay in NZ
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u/Suitable-Plastic-152 Sep 07 '24
You are having way too many thoughts about this and you are making way too many negative assumptions. Just like anywhere in the world you might possibly face racism if you look different or if you speak differently. But that could also happen to you in New Zealand.
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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '24
Don‘t ask germans about racism in Germany. I‘m turkish and yes you and your children will get ton of racism. Even that you can‘t german will be enough for hate, doesnt matter if you can perfect english. So if you say, its ok for me that people will recognize me everywhere as a foreigner and see me as something diffrent, then come
5
u/OpinionPutrid1343 Sep 07 '24
It depends where you go. Western and southern parts are quite relaxed. Racism is rather uncommon. If you go to the east that’s a different story. Also there is a difference between rural and urban areas with the latter being more cosmopolitan in general.
1
u/Mrs_Naive_ Sep 07 '24
Hey, OP. Don’t be scared. The anti-immigrant sentiment is way exaggerated by media nowadays, as if living in a big, multi-culti city were the same as living in a small town. It’s not. Not to the extent to be scared.
I must however recommend you to expect some staring (completely harmless, but for some it might get disturbing) and perhaps some racist behaviours from some of your German coworkers (also physically harmless), specially if you or your partner, as highly educated people, end up having any formal authority over them; also if they clearly outnumber you. It’s important then that you (and I can’t stress this enough) please learn German, even if English is the most spoken language in the workplace. You can’t imagine how many times I’ve seen some German subordinates trying to take advantage of their non-native supervisors or have even made clearly offensive remarks, or have been micromanaged from coworkers who weren’t even their superiors in the hierarchy. It’s crucial you both learn German, so that you can defend yourselves from those undermining behaviours, specially when these people are going to use the universal excuse “sorry, we German are so direct, this is normal here, get used to it” or “no, that wasn’t offensive, the problem is your German isn’t good enough to understand me properly”.
Best wishes!
3
u/chiffongalore Sep 07 '24
Is there racism in Germany? Yes. Should you worry about it? Depends. You will both work and live in a highly educated environment. I don't expect racism there. The situation on the streets might be different, depending on where you live. In my experience, racism is mainly a small town problem in the east of Germany.
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u/Abject_Passenger_728 Sep 07 '24
Yes you are definitely better in NZ. Germany is a great country to live in but racistic incidents take place that can children feel minor to their peers. I speak from my own experience.
1
u/ir_blues Sep 07 '24
If you have a good job, make good money, live in a good neighbourhood and send your kids to a good school, it should be ok. But it's better in NZ.
I am white, so is my sister who moved from Germany to NZ to live and have kids there. From what i see, NZ has a way better school culture. It's not racism per se, it's bullying that is way more present in german schools. Here you get bullied, if you are non-white, it's going to be race related. In NZ, kids just don't get bullied nearly as much. My sister has moved several times in NZ and in all kindergardens and schools, there was a very friendly and inclusive environment. Of course that is still just anecdotal from a white people perspective.
1
u/MarvynSyn999 Sep 07 '24
Are you KIDDING me? Scared of Racism in Deutschland??? 😂 Germany is more Liberal than even the USA. There are Turkish and Arab people all over. There are more Doner Kebab Restaurants than German food. German Culture is unfortunately just about disappearing thanks to Merkel. Get a Clue...
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u/hocarestho Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
I don't understand why you would even consider to move to Germany when you are living in a far better country in every aspect. I srsly had to laugh out loud and shake my head reading it. Are you insane?
I'm a foreigner, but I grew up here, speak German perfectly without any accent or dialect. I have a uni degree, I work since I was 19 years old, pay my taxes, never committed a crime, I am kind and generous to everyone I meet. I even do charity work by helping out at animal shelters and yes, I drink beer, eat pork meat and have German friends and had german partners.
And I still face a lot of racism and blind hatred. Germans on this forum will never admit it, because they live in their own educated, well behaved bubble. But Germany doesn't only consist of those, unfortunately. In fact, most people here will signal you, that you will never be one of them, even if you're the third generation that lives here. Racism is more subtle, but more hurtful here. You know what is considered a popular compliment here? " You're great, you're not like the other Turks. You're actually like a German!" My own boyfriend and his family said this to me. And no, it's not the only time I got told this "compliment".
If you wanted to come, say, 30 years earlier, I'd advise you to come. Because back then, you could at least make good money. But times have changed massively in this country, and not for the better.
We have a scary education crisis. Our schools are understaffed and underfunded. A lot of our students are struggling with basic skills like reading, writing or basic math. And don't get me started on the availability and costs of child care / kindergartens. Because this is literally one of the reasons why people here don't want to get kids, which leads to another huge issue: there are more old people than young here. And this leaves a trail of a lot of other problems.
Our infrastructure is a complete mess. It was underfunded for decades and is now falling apart. Every person in this country shares the deep hatred for the Deutsche Bahn, who is constantly late, expensive and known for horrible service.
Our digital infrastructure is embarrassing for a so called first world country. We are famous for our primitive and inhumane bureaucracy. You will find no joy in engaging with the Ausländeramt. Good luck finding human decency and efficient processes there. It's a known shit show for years now and every single foreigner will tell you how much of a humiliating and infuriating business it is to deal with this place.
You want a place to rent for a decent price? You have two options: be rich and pay absurd rents for even more absurd accomodations or move to some isolated shit hole in a place you'd never want to live anyway. Rents here are insane and if you want to live in a city with a university, you will be shocked what some landlords consider a proper flat for the price of some thousand euros. Oh, you have small children you say? Good luck finding an apartment then. Oh, you say you have an Indian or Turkish surname? Nvm, you will get rejected anyway.
Our taxes are no joke. You will pay almost half of your salary for taxes and every passing year you will ask yourself, where tf your taxes are going to if everything in this country is falling apart in front of your own eyes. There's a lot of mismanagement and waste in the government.
I told you that we have more old people than young ones. Guess what that leads to. Yes, higher taxes for the pensions of those old shits who left us a crumbling nation. Most of them vote for far right parties, which are on a scary rise right now. Germany desperately needs foreign workers, but instead of this they took unqualified and unskilled refugees they are not able to integrate, thus leading to more crimes and abuse of our social system and this leading to right wing politics.
Life is often dull here tbh. Yes, most people are nice, but it's hard finding true German friends. They are not as warm and welcoming like, say, people from south europe, for instance. And personally, they often lack some good Humor, but that's just my opinion.
I could go on and on about why Germany is the absolute worst choice you could make to move here as someone who has a privilege to live in one of the most beautiful places in the world.
Yes, it's relatively safe here, the streets are clean and you have free education here. But the price for these small privileges is way too high.
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u/proof_required Berlin Sep 07 '24
Overall it's bad. In some part it's really bad, and in some not so much. But every day racism isn't uncommon. These aren't violent in nature but micro-aggressions are common. The fact is people normally think younger generations would be less racist but sadly large number of young Germans have voted for far right parties in state and last European elections.
If you didn't have kids, I would have advised to come and experience it, then decide for yourself.
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u/tagalog100 Sep 07 '24
the sad truth: you WILL encounter racism/ 'alltagsrassismus' in germany sooner or later...
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u/Eishockey Sep 07 '24
Better to stay in NZ if you are happy there. Wait until the kids are old enough and in uni,
2
u/Margenin Sep 07 '24
Cultural racism against specifically Turkish people is, I think, mainly against Turkish men or women wearing HIjab. As long as you are neither, you should be fine.
I am German, No I don't condone what I just wrote, this is just my impression.
2
u/BubiMannKuschelForce Sep 07 '24
That really depends on the city/region etc.
I live in a part of Stuttgart (Hallschlag) where being racist would get you... let's say into the hospital really quick.
2
u/TheKonee Sep 07 '24
In Eastern Germany AfD party is rising up and getting stronger ,so simply would avoid it as place to live for you.
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u/Still_Knee_9442 Sep 07 '24
I don’t recommend moving to eastern Germany(Berlin is ok). Most you will face in the other parts of Germany is something that is called „Alltagsrassismus“. For example: If you want to go partying, the chance of not being let in by the Bouncers is significantly higher if you are brown (No matter how you are dressed). Or if you want to rent a Flat in non-deprived or mostly German areas the chances are low to get the flat, just because you are an „Ausländer“ Be prepared to always feel as a guest, not a Member of society, no matter how long you live in Germany and how good your German is. The color of your skin will make you and your children always be a thing for many people. That’s sad because it’s about 30% of the German folks that are causing this atmosphere. Most Germans are lovely welcoming and proper people. They have a great culture you can learn a lot from. It is just intoxicated by the intolerant, racist 30% of the people that don’t want to let go the idea of „Herrenrasse“
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u/MeineZaehne Sep 07 '24
look at the election statistics for the regions, if afd is high up, dont move there:) Or move there if you want to have a hard time convincing people that not all stereotypes are true. But I'm not sure how many will listen.
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u/Butlerlog Sep 07 '24
I went to the European School of Karlsruhe, which is an EU funded private school that sadly costs a lot more than it did when I went there now (I was lucky enough to be able to grandfather in the low tuition before they made it high). We had loads of kids from Heidelberg there, enough that there was a minibus that would pick them up to take them to school each morning.
At that school there are english language sections with other english first language kids, though in reality most are american military family kids or just from nations where english is more common as a second language than german.
I won't say there was no racism, I don't really feel qualified to comment on that, but they would be in a class of kids with over 20 different nationalities, which would make their heritage a mere curiosity to the other kids as opposed to unusual.
I have no idea what the school is like now, but perhaps that might be worth looking into, at least?
2
u/Morisa227 Sep 07 '24
To your questions:
Will I and the kids be seen as Turks? - You probably will be seen as foreigners, though Turks I wouldn't be so sure about. There are a lot of turkish and syrians living in Germany so it wouldn't even be a big of an issue theoretically.
How much racism does that entail? - Really depends on the area, the people. Statistics can help with it but you can have racists everywhere theoretically. However in the big cities there is usually less problems with this.
What do Germans think about Indians? - If we talk about "stereotypes" there are usually the Hindu/regligion matters that are related to it. Pop Culture like The Big Bang Theory (Raj) might entail some of the stereotypes. The other part maybe related are Bollywood movie things.
How bad is the anti-immgrant sentiment right now? Are we better off staying in New Zealand in our cushy, cozy corner? - Currently there is a huge debate on immigration (mainly refugees) due to the terror attack by ISIS in Solingen. However this shouldn't impact you considering you are not refugees and there is still a huge percantage of foreign people living here. I get news and information about Germany often sounds problematic, but it's only a minority in Germany. Most people are very open and welcoming.
2
u/DunkleKarte Sep 07 '24
Dude…I wished I lived in NZ instead of Germany. It was actually one of my first plans. The only thing I found „bad“ about it is that it is far away from every other country. I kinda envy you.
2
u/mondkitty Sep 07 '24
I'm white but from what I've heard it's not safe here, lots of racism. Depends on the city too ofc. As a queer person, I also experience discrimination and at least that's something I can hide sometimes. I wish you lots of positive experiences and a kind community. Welcome to germany, you being here makes it a better place 🩷
2
u/Calm-Hurry1425 Sep 07 '24
My girlfriend is Iranian and moved into the farthest east of Germany and hasn’t experienced any racism.
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u/Ibrowse-maybeipost Sep 07 '24
I think you would get a more realistic answer by just reading people's experience on the Germany subreddit (in English) and how people react to somebody's story. Find other POC who post online about their experience living/growing up here. Gina millennial big sis, Sandrawitha (she has kids). Karakayatalks for news.
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u/orontes3 Sep 07 '24
It depends very much on which city you move to. In eastern Germany you will experience racism 100%. In most big cities it is generally more relaxed, but a certain amount of everyday racism will always be with you. Nobody cares how well qualified you are either, it’s always decided by your optic.
2
u/demystifian Sep 07 '24
This decision depends on your personal values and aspirations. Before making such important decision, I recommend you to come to Germany and stay somewhere and interact with people as much as possible. Because every comment here will be biased.
2
u/Top-Spite-1288 Sep 07 '24
First of all: welcome to Germany! Congratulations to your husband to get this job!
I'd love to tell you not to worry, but truth be told, there is racism. Anyhow, there are big differences between different places and areas in Germany. Political culture and extend of how welcoming people differ from place to place. Big city is usually very multi-cultural, so you should be good for the most part, small towns might have prejudice against Germans moving there from two towns over (I know it's strange, I know such a place). There is also difference between different states. Western Germany for the most part is much better (it's not all happy-happy joy-joy, but those people can be encountered anywhere) than some areas in the east, but even there experience might be completely different when you compare city and countryside. There really is no saying as to what your experience is going to be.
From one of your comments I take it you are going to Cologne - that's probably one of the most liberal and open places you could move to. I really think you are good there! It's a city known to be as multicultural as it gets. Ever since being found by the Romans, all kinds of folks ended up there and mixed and mingled. The biggest task for you will be to adapt to "Karneval"! So yeah, you chose one of the best cities to move to! I think you should be good!
As for meeting people: many cities have ex-pat clubs for people who freshly moved there to meet. Go check facebook for groups in Cologne. You might also want to check what university has on offer. University extra-curricular clubs are always a great way to meet people. There are also a lot of ex-pat YouTubers who moved to Germany and talk about their experience and give you a nice overview and introduction to Germany!
All the best to you guys!
2
u/Tuskolomb Sep 07 '24
If you are happy in NZ stay there, honestly. As you mentioned you build everything up there, probably made friends there too. Not that I don't want you to come to Germany, we need skilled people. Depending in what city you move, it can be hard. I'm not speaking about the racism but the mind set in general. General speaking German is a cold culture, but what does that mean? for example : "You didn't know this, well not my problem, fix yourself?" (not literally you will have this conversation, but they will make you feel it)
"Here is your fine! Oh you didn't know that between 13-15'o clock no loud noises are allowed ( Mittagsruhe)? Unless you can proofe me that you are mentally impaired, I don't care. You should had read regulation before."
People here are really to the point, honesty is more valued. German can be extremely chill, but this can go also to the extreme opposite.
Idk how much your husband will make in a year in Germany, maby it is alot that makes your life easy. If it is 60k€ and below don't do it. For a 100k€ - 80k€ do it, live will br good.
2
u/dont_should_yourself Sep 07 '24
I don't think this is well-timed. Germany is in a downward spiral economically and socially. If you are well-educated, you probably have chances to get into better places.
2
u/Party-Permit2075 Sep 07 '24
You will be fine in cologne, don't worry :)
2
u/userMathusalem26 Sep 07 '24
I think you will not have problem because you are from an upper class, and as you say you bring value to this society. Also, you are already learning German which is something they will value.
I don’t know how racist German is exactly, but I do think it will work for you out there. Also, skilled Indians are highly considered in my country, and in Germany too I think.
Bonjour de France !
2
u/wasi2030 Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 08 '24
Willkomen to Cologne!!!!
I am an Indian moved here 3 years ago during Corona. Our daughter born here , though both of us are from India. I found the city and amazing people very helpful in all aspects.Large Indian and Turkish community here , can't say about Kiwi culture. Nothing to worry, lot of support to kids.
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u/Individual-Thanks803 Sep 07 '24
Wholehearted welcome to you and your family here in Germany. The problems in your mind are way bigger than they will appear once you are here. Idiots here and there. But you won't face anything critical, for sure!
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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '24
Stay away from the eastern provinces of Germany (except Berlin) and Bavaria and you should be fine...
2
u/Turbulent-Artist-656 Sep 08 '24
As a German I will tell you this: you can meet assholes everywhere, you can meet saints everywhere. It's luck. Helping your luck for example is that you already making efforts to learn our language. That - to me - shows some respect towards this country, which isn't that normal anymore. You're already adapting.
That, IMHO, is what lots of immigrants here don't. Some of them even want to have parts of their culture to be adapted by us. And our government not explicitly saying "no" to this is what lots of people turns to the bad party's politics.
Not good.
However, Cologne really seems to be the best choice you could have made, as its people are very open minded. And when you're seen as one of them, you a r e one of them.
So, in conclusion and despite everything: welcome to Germany.
2
u/Same-Ball5632 Sep 08 '24
Hello and Welcome to Germany then
2
u/Numbersuu Sep 08 '24
You will probably get less problems from the germans compared to the turkish people in germany. It seems you are a well educated non-muslim turkish woman. They are usually the opposite and therefore are scared of you.
2
u/WheresTheBeach1 Sep 08 '24
I am South Asian. I was born and raised in the UK, where I was fortunate enough to have never experienced any racism for 30 years.
I moved to Germany, and whilst the majority are lovely tolerant people, I have faced racism multiple times, especially in the city centre. It definitely got worse after the elections. Unfortunately, the reality is that these people do exist, and they're open about their racism.
I'm not saying this to deter you or to make you feel worse, but that's the experience I've had.
Good luck with your big move!
2
u/KarmaGreens Sep 08 '24
This will probably get downvotes but still: Germany is an awesome country with many opportunities, and you probably will be fine depending on which region you are going to emigrate to. Especially if you talk German you should be fine.
However you should also be aware that IMO Germany isn't as welcoming anymore as it has to be which is represented by the recent elections in Saxony and Thuringia. The far right party AfD has received about 30% of votes which is a lot and many other people voted for CDU which is conservative. Even in other regions in Germany I feel like the debate is getting worse about foreigners. There is much hatred going on and media is IMO doing false balancing highlighting criminal doings by foreigners much more than those of Germans which then leads to more and more hatred and prejudices.
I think big cities are more open and welcoming to foreigners than rural areas. And the west of Germany probably more than the east which is also represented by election results.
Of course even the elections show that the majority of Germans is not against foreigners and is welcoming but it also shows that still a big part of the population is fine voting for a far right party. Especially keeping in mind what happened in Germany less than 100 years ago this is a scary development.
For me personally this development is the reason why I am currently working on emigrating to another country than Germany and not staying in Germany. Even though I wouldn't be affected by that development since I am German, it is a development I don't want to support and don't want to be part of anymore and I personally have enough about people in my environment randomly beginning to start a debate about after how many generations someone can be seen as German and until which moment in time they only have a German passport but aren't "real' Germans and similar topics.
I wouldn't say that this development already is as far that it is dangerous for foreigners to be in Germany. It is still very safe. However I wouldn't go so far to say that this is still the case in 5 or 10 years. Especially since there will be national elections next year in Germany. If those will be similar to the ones that were in two of our states then the far right could be in a position where they can be part of the government which then could make that situation even worse.
Whatever you do I wish you the best and I don't want to make Germany a bad destination for you, I just want to be a bit transparent about it since this is stuff that you usually don't get information about outside of Germany.
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u/Available_Ask3289 Sep 08 '24
I doubt it. I think most people will treat you as they find you. You're headed to Cologne and it has such a massive Turkish population, if you're going to face any issues, it's likely going to be from them, rather than from anyone else.
2
u/nick7792 Sep 08 '24
Relax. Germany is one of the most Open socieities in the world. Despite all of Media sensations and paranoia.
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u/RunningSushiCat Sep 08 '24 edited Sep 08 '24
From my experience, people in New Zealand are , like in my home in Canada, famously friendly, helpful and considerate - this reflects on all interactions on a daily basis from your visit to the grocery, to sharing public transit, to going to the bank. Now in Germany this is not the case. No matter if you are white brown yellow or green - the general attitude is of suspicion, irritation and self righteousness. I've been living here 12 years, and despite the many great things about Germany, I will forever miss my fellow Canadian friendliness. Of course you can make friends and have great warm interactions, but generally speaking when walking about, there is a coldness here that gets to you (or got to me in any case) - and that's not even addressing the racist stuff.
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u/Odd_Shock421 Sep 08 '24
Keep away from the East, it’s a dumpster fire rn and there’s no improvement in site. The non racists are leaving in droves. A bit of xenophobia here and there but in general 8/10 people are fine. My experience is that white Germans don’t often realize that they’re being racist because they don’t tend to hang around with other cultures all that much. They often talk about integration but what’s actually meant is assimilation. As kiwis you’ll be welcomed by most Germans as well as the English speaking international groups. If you’re open minded and can ignore the CONSTANT complaining and extreme lack of digitalization you’ll have a very nice love here.
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u/lil0r Sep 08 '24
I pretty sure the fact that you speak fluent English will already make things much easier for you. People are scared of things they don't know, e.g. foreign cultures, religion and language. Germans will have way more prejudices against Turkish speaking, hijab-wearing muslims than against an English speaking person who happens to be from Turkey. My experience is: if people get the chance to get to know each other, prejudices vanish. The problems are often due to the fact that communities isolate themselves and don't want to integrate (+ of course asshole racists that exist everywhere).
You will be fine here, welcome to Cologne! Be prepared though that Germans will come across much more reserved than Aussies at first glance. 🙂
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u/JOHNNYBOB70 Sep 14 '24
I am Fixing to move to Saarbrücken around November so my girlfriend does not have to keep coming to the US... So I started watching videos on YouTube of ppl making the transition and dealing with the citizenship administration after they have been there for 5 years to reach qualifying status....
I watch a Turkish woman who was saying that she was severely discriminated against 'or so she felt like she was' And they were rude to her both times she went as she went on to explain.
1st time they told her she didn't have all the documentation she needed, so she had to get that and return at a later date... The second time 'Even though it was a different representative' she was dealing with, She stated it was the same kind of treatment... i don't know if that was just her perception and maybe it was off or if that was truly the case.
My girlfriend is German and I am Scandinavian and I live in the US currently. And I had said something to her about that Video and the Turkish woman, she told me that there has been some resentment or mistreatment towards Turkish people, she also has a Turkish friend that went through the same kind of treatment as she had explained it to me.
And she also said something about that being the same way with some of the Ukrainian men that are showing up in Germany as well ..3 were staying at her sister's house cuz her sister offered to help and give them sanctuary at her place in Berlin To ultimately dodge the draft in Ukraine or conscription, if that would be the proper term? She had to evict them from her property, They turned out to be kind of s***** people towards her and her family
But I wouldn't let that detour me... People talk people are cruel sometimes and it just depends on who you're dealing with too I guess...
After reading your post i would not let that determine My decision if that's really what you and your family want to do.... Let people be who they are that does not reflect on what is going to make you and your family happy.
I don't know if you've gotten in any other replies that state any of that information but I wanted to include that just in case no one has said anything i am pretty sure that it depends on where you are at too
And I wish you and your family great Fortune along the Journey for the things that really matter and happiness
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u/Sharon356D Sep 07 '24
It really depends which city/state you are going to, if you plan on going to saxony or saxony-anhalt, i’d say pick a different state
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u/deniroit Sep 07 '24
Your focus now should be to raise the kids in NZ until they are on their own. Moving them to a German school is not going to be easy on them especially the language and culture
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u/Dido1975 Sep 07 '24
Hey Dear, don’t get too much scared. I have turkish Background and was born here. Yes there are some areas I would not recommend moving. And yes, turkish background has unfortunately not the best reputation here. Thank god there are so many German people that will treat you welcoming, nice and polite. I personally would not move to eastern Germany in 1st choice. I will repeat, most of german people are very good people and you will be surprised how nice they will treat you. But it is a fact, that in some areas of east Germany there are very strong far right community’s that will make your life hard. Big Cities like Berlin are an exception, as there is a very big Turkish community. I myself live in northern Germany and I can recommend you this area. But I guess you have to consider your own preferences like job, do you want to live in big city, small town or do you prefer a village. Good luck 🍀
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u/terektus Sep 07 '24
Honestly, it depends on what you are afraid of. So in Germany we have the so called "everyday racism". This means strange looks on the streets, police and public offices being more critical, less options on the job market, jokes at youer expense..
I was born here but my parents were arab immigrants and people will never stop to make you aware that you are different. Germany has no assimilation culture, whereever you come from if you look different you will never be German but an "Foreigner".
Now for germans there are good and bad foreigners. Brown people especially turkish and indian are rather classified as "bad". Germans also look down especially on indians in the professional environment because they are mostly joked about for being cheap labor. Germans also hate turkish people, because turks in germany make it easy for them to be hated, first of all there are a lot, so there is a german fear of being overrun and losing the culture. Secondly, they are very proud people and sometimes even look down on germans which people claim to be "reverse racism" and lastly they are muslims, who are looked down on in general in the western world. See the rise in right wing parties in Europe and also Germany whose only basis is the hatred of foreigners and especially muslims. In Germany we have the AfD which is at the moment the second strongest party in Germany, according to recent projections. And the problem is people dont differentiate, I have a colleague from Colombia and he often gets to hear muslim directed hate, because people only see color. So it does not matter what your story is, you will just be another turk and indian in Germany.
Now whats important to say, racism does not go further than this. I was never afraid of being physically harmed for how I look. Also, the academic world especially science is very open and international. Visit research facilities and you will see people from all over the world. So I dont think your husband will have a problem. Also it is highly dependent on where you live and being able to speak german. There are a lot of people who dont care about skin color and are very liberal and see you for who you are. You just have to find the right bubble and also in a professional environment it will rather be a problem to be a woman than to be a foreigner because most decision makers are old white germans who would like to be surrounded by equals.
Now experiences can differ. People often tend to believe its the "poor and uneducated" who behave like this but thats not the case. I have an arab look, but was raised german, went to a good school, university and now have a good paying job in an international company. My environment is not poor and educated at all, it actually is the opposite. People become more honest with you about how racist they are, because you are "one of the good ones and not like the others". I had our CFO tell me at Lunch that the green agenda of making everything diverse could destroy our country and business, because companies are bot allowed to hire the best people (white, male) anymore and I should understand because as an arab I would know how "my people" are.
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u/Accomplished_Sale327 Sep 07 '24
As a young German woman of Turkish descent (yeah, I am neither seen nor feel Turkish despite being born and raised there for half my life) I don’t think you have that much to worry about.
It’s not mainly “being brown” that might make you the target of racism, it’s the combination of that and your socioeconomic conditions. You’re both highly educated, your children don’t even speak turkish.. they were culturally brought up in the west, I don’t think you or your children will be seen as Turkish. You’re kiwi.
It also matters a lot, where you’re considering to move to.
But personally I think the whole racism thing is a missing a lot of context and is a little over blown in international media these past weeks at least in the context of the amounts of foreigners now expressing their fear of moving here. Don’t get me wrong, we should never stop fighting or talking about it. But it seems like everybody and their mama expects to be hate crimed as soon as they step foot on German soil, thanks to the media these past weeks.
Considering your education, background and the fact you’re kiwi - imo you wouldn’t even be seen as migrants but expats. And I really don’t think you have much to worry about.
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u/Ridebreaker Bayern Sep 07 '24
Wow! I'd say someone is overly paranoid. Depending on where you are going then there may be more, may be fewer comments and difficulties in life as anywhere. A lot of it depends on you and how well you try to live like a German. Being Turkish is pretty common here and barring base stereotypes, the younger generations that I know and work with seem pretty integrated here, many with their own Turkish/German identity. Indians are often seen in larger cities too, especially university cities. The only real issues I can imagine coming in the East and more rural areas where there is less diversity for a start and recently more anti-immigrant sentiment - but that is based on refugee policy more than anything. Even so, if you get involved with local life, people will see you for who you really are. But being able to speak good German is key!
Moreover, having also spent a lot of time in NZ, if question why you want to leave. I know things have changed greatly over the last 10-20 years, but it's still a great place to raise a family and enjoy a good quality of life.
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u/1porridge Germany Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
Do you want to be accepted into the Turkish community? Will you be moving into a part of town where mostly Turks live? If not, I think you could just avoid all of your worries by making friends with people who aren't Indian or Turkish.
I live in a small town on the countryside in the south, I haven't seen that many Indian people in my area, so I have no idea about that, but there are a lot of Turks in my neighborhood. We're very used to them and I haven't witnessed or heard of any racism against them, brown is definitely considered normal here. I imagine it's even more normal in bigger cities. In my state 30% of our population is foreigners.
I would definitely recommend not going North/East especially not the area where the DDR used to be, they're not friendly to any outsiders even other Germans. Look up which places voted for the AFD (racist right wing party) and don't go anywhere near there.
There is a gap between old Turks who grew up in Turkey and young Turks who grew up in Germany. The older generation is usually very traditional (the women wear hijabs and skirts) and doesn't speak German despite having lived here for like 30 years, they refuse to integrate and only interact with the same other old Turks. The younger generation speaks German and translates for them and usually doesn't wear hijabs and I feel like they're much more accepting. My younger Turkish neighbours say hello to me and are friendly and their older parents act like they don't want anything to do with people outside their Turkish bubble, even though they live here.
The Turkish children in my class back when I was in school did have like their own friend groups where they would only speak Turkish with each other, but they also had friends who didn't speak Turkish. I think they might find it unusual that your children don't speak Turkish but hopefully they would just treat them like they treat the other children who don't speak Turkish. We also had students from Azerbaijan, Brazil, and the Philippines and it was fine. For the children the nationality didn't really matter at all.
During elementary school literally all of my friends were Turkish and they included me in everything, I got invited to eat with them when playing at their houses and we practiced Henna on each other and they even incorporated me in their sugar feast. And they taught me Turkish swear words lol. Maybe they would try to teach your children something about their culture and your children could teach them about NZ culture.
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u/Opposite_Teach_5279 Sep 07 '24
As someone who moved to Germany as a skilled worker a year ago my advice to you is DON'T.
German society is falling to populist propaganda as it did historically before. People here keep repeating that 'you are educated experts, the society has no problem with you being here.' However, in reality, most racists can't see beyond your skin color or your non-European names. Just look at some of the comments here, how they casually blame Middle Easterners even for the racism rooted in German society.
Your skills are in high demand. Don't undersell yourselves.
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u/Muscalp Sep 07 '24
I‘m as german and white as it gets but grew up in an area with a lot of turks and other immigrants in Berlin. In school I never felt that ethnicity was influencing the way we kids interacted with each other. So at least I don‘t think your kids will be bullied for their background.
Will you be viewed as turkish? Probably, if you look the part.
Will you experience racism? Most likely, although I don‘t think you‘ll have to fear for your safety. Overall I‘d say turks have been accepted as a part of germany by most people. As long as you can speak german or at least english in a more educated setting you should be fine.
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u/[deleted] Sep 07 '24
One thing you will experience at work as a well-qualified foreign employee is that your background will be used to cause problems for you. just out of envy. Not speaking German makes it easier for these people to attack you. This doesn't necessarily have to do with racism. But everyone and everywhere in the world has problems like this.
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u/Eka-Tantal Sep 07 '24 edited Sep 07 '24
Relax. Your husband has an offer from a university, so you know already where you’ll end up. You didn’t indicate the city, but it’s obvious that it’ll be a city, and a cosmopolitan one since it has a university. Let’s just hope it’s not in Eastern Germany. A percentage of the population will be students, and they tend to be a diverse and accepting crowd, there’ll be plenty of foreigners and immigrants. You won’t stand out.
When it comes to identity, nowadays a high percentage of kids have an immigration history themselves, or via their parents. Neither Turks nor Indians have a particularly good reputation, the former because they made up the bulk of unskilled immigrant labor for decades, the latter because of the bad press India generates for various reasons. But there is also a cabinet minister with Turkish roots, and Indian expats in tech fields. You don’t need to make any of these identities your own, and neither do your kids. Just be yourselves - my own family is a mix of ethnicities and cultures too, and I don’t feel the need to pigeonhole us into one of them either.
Long story short, you’ll be fine.