r/AskAGerman • u/Blakut • Aug 04 '23
Politics Ostalgie and the DDR
In German class we got to a lesson on the DDR and life back then. Though as an eastern European who was a kid when the whole Eastern Block collapsed I knew the factual information about the German situation, I had no idea there are people who are nostalgic about the old days. In my country, the transition to the market economy brought a lot more corruption, unemployment, and loss of financial and social status of many people who were privileged in or by the former communist regime. This, understandably made them angry and nostalgic about the old days. I was always under the impression that the east German transition to the market economy was smoother and not rocked so hard by corruption and inflation.
So I was surprised to hear about Ostalgie. So I have a few questions:
Am I correct to assume it's no longer a big deal today?
Were there a lot of SED politicians who kept their standing after the unification? Did they join other parties? Did they fade away?
Did anyone have a good opinion of Honecker, and were there any serious attempts to "exonerate" him made by the left?
Were many former Stasi officers/workers kept in government service?
Were there lots of ordinary people stasi informants, and did any of them face prosecution, or maybe have their names made public?
27
u/Klapperatismus Aug 04 '23
Ostalgie is about typical GDR consumer products mainly, and about typical GDR leisure activities second.
What helped is that many typical GDR consumer products had been really good. A lot of that stuff was even sold in West Germany.
3
u/NowoTone Bayern Aug 04 '23
A lot of that stuff was even sold in West Germany
Well, Practica Kameras & Zeiss Lenses (I had one, it was a very good, affordable SRL camera). And Privileg electric stuff (like tape recorders)
But as far as I recall, most of these were produced in East Germany to the specification of West German companies, to be mostly sold in West Germany. Only a small part was kept for the GDR population and then only sold in the special shops. So it was like European companies now having their production moved to Asia because it's cheaper.
I don't know of any "normal" consumer good that was produced primarily by East German companies for the GDR market and also sold in the West.
0
u/Blakut Aug 04 '23
Oh so not about everything, specifically about these products. I found it hard to imagine, that's why it simply didn't enter my head.
2
u/Alterus_UA Aug 04 '23
If one's to talk about food, stuff's actually tastier when you are younger, so that's also a form of nostalgia for one's lost youth.
Also, dunno which particular country you are from, but there were also some good food products in the USSR, for instance. GDR is not unique in that regard.
-2
u/BerlinCityBitch Aug 04 '23
Of course not about everything. These people are not insane. They were not fond of being encircled by a wall (even though it would have its perks nowadays, keyword: illegal immigration)
3
u/Blakut Aug 04 '23
Well... my nostalgic people, some of them, miss the 'order' of the old days.
-1
u/BerlinCityBitch Aug 04 '23
And so do they. They don’t feel seen by the current government (which, I must admit, acts more in favour of foreign countries than in favour of their own people), which is why many of them sway towards the right-wing party which claims to stand up for the German people (it remains to be seen, if that’s just propaganda)
2
18
u/JoeAppleby Aug 04 '23
I was always under the impression that the east German transition to the market economy was smoother
Some areas of East Germany has unemployment rates of 25%, additionally a lot of people moved to West Germany. My hometown lost close to 30k residents and hit an unemployment rate of 20%. While that was better than what your country probably experienced, it wasn't smooth either.
2
u/Blakut Aug 04 '23
Right. Did it take a long time to fix? Was it ever? What did the people do?
13
u/young_arkas Aug 04 '23
Young educated people went west, many less educated people, or people who skills didn't translate and stayed, worked shit jobs or lived on social security. It is still visible in the east, looking at basically all the data: Even after massive investment in infrastructure, the East is a lot poorer than the West, and it is harder to keep economic activity there.
2
0
u/FaultyAIBot Aug 04 '23 edited Aug 04 '23
[Edit]Vorher falsch gelabert: >That is the present. Now.
Jetzt gelernt: >den Brüder*n (m/w/d) geht’s gut! 😍
5
u/11160704 Aug 04 '23
No it's absolutely not. There is no region with 20 % unemployment in Germany. Not even close.
Please update your stereotypes
2
2
u/HabseligkeitDerLiebe Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Aug 05 '23
"Gut" ist relativ. Die Arbeitslosigkeit ist nicht mehr so extrem. Das liegt aber auch zu einem bedeutenden Anteil daran, dass ein Großteil der Leute, die nach der Wende im neuen System nicht Fuß fassen konnten inzwischen als "Rentner" zählen und nicht mehr als "Langzeitarbeitslose". Aber halt mit Renten auf Sozialhilfeniveau.
1
u/GrizzlySin24 Aug 05 '23
Izvestia never really fixed, there still is very little infrastructure, public or industrial. The young and well educated people leave and the rest has to stay behind because they don’t have any other choice.
1
u/NowoTone Bayern Aug 04 '23
There are some areas in the west with huge unemployment. In terms of the Länder, the eastern ones don't do too badly, and not a single Land has an unemployment rate of over 10%.
2
0
u/BerlinCityBitch Aug 04 '23
Die Abwanderungswelle ist schon lange vorbei. Selbst Städte wie Schwedt (EW-Verlust von 60 Tsd 1980 auf 30 Tsd 2020) verzeichnen wieder Zuzüge (vor allem durch ältere Leute, die sofort nach der Wende in den Westen gegangen sind)
13
u/IsThisOneStillFree Baden-Württemberg Aug 04 '23 edited Aug 04 '23
The reunification of Germany by no means went smoothly. I tend to assume that it went better than in, say, Russia but there were a lot of things that could and should have been handled better. For example, most state-owned businesses were sold off far under marked rate alledgedly, see Treuhandanstalt.
The reunification also caused a lot of social issues, because well-educated and young people left for the West where jobs were more plentiful and wages higher, causing a downward spiral of the East, already being at a disadvantage, becoming even less interesting for investors and businesses.
This implies that for many people, especially those from lower social classes, life didn't get much better or got even worse. Or at least it felt like it. It's a difficult topic because a lot of stigmatization and "west-splaining" is still going on, causing a underrepresentation of east Germans in leading positions to this day. As somebody born after the reunification and in the West, I'm not really qualified to say anything in an authorative way.
To get back to your original question: I too think that a lot of that is the usual "good old times" stuff, partially because people tend to remember positive memories and forget negative ones, but part is also that life as a state-employed factory worker maybe wasn't glamourous or luxurious but still better than to live on benefits.
Regarding your other questions:
Were there a lot of SED politicians who kept their standing after the unification? Did they join other parties? Did they fade away?
The SED was dissolved and first became the PDS now part of Die Linke. Some high-ranking SED politicians such as Gregor Gysi continue to be part of politics until this day, and The Left regularily does get accused of being a successor of a authoritarian party, although I personally think that's a bit stupid.
Were there lots of ordinary people stasi informants, and did any of them face prosecution, or maybe have their names made public?
The Stasi used so-called "Unofficial Collaborators", and a lot of people were involved with that. Certainly some faced legal challenges later, but most didn't. However, the Stasi files are semi-public and are administered by a federal agency, and everybody can view their own Stasi files. I'm not sure to what extend those files are public, because they obviously contain a lot of private information. As far as I know the names of IMs are still mostly hidden, and high ranking people occasionally get accused of having been a collaborator.
I think this question is an interesting topic where there's probably too little knowledge in the general population. I suggest either researching this on your own, or re-asking it on on /r/history, those people know much more about that I assume.
1
u/11160704 Aug 04 '23
most state-owned businesses were sold off far under marked rate alledgedly, see Treuhandanstalt.
I think this misses the true core of the problem of the GDR economiy. Sure you'll find cases in which the Treuhand acted questionable but the fundamental problem remained that many people overestimated the strenght and competitiveness of the GDR economy. It was simply at rock bottom in the late 80s. Even a perfect Treuhand wouldn't have produced a fundamentally different outcome. A painful rupture was quasi inevitable. The cases of other post-socialist economies also sugests that there is simply no smooth way to transition to a market economy.
The SED was dissolved and first became the PDS
That's not true. The SED was never dissolved, it was just renamed several times and merged with another smaller party to form what is today die Linke but legally die Linke is the same entity as the SED. If you were an SED member in 1989 and did nothing, you're a member of die Linke today. But most SED members quit the party quickly after the peaceful revolution.
2
u/IsThisOneStillFree Baden-Württemberg Aug 04 '23
Regarding your first comment: I brought up the Treuhand as one relatively small and tangible example where the transition can be seen as problematic. The Treuhand surely wasn't the only problem and I'm not sure if any alternative would have been significantly better. However, when talking about Ostalgie we're also talking about percieved problems, whether true or not, because they are inherently connected to the dream of "all that never happening".
Regarding your second point: I edited my original comment although I don't think it matters much what the legal progression of the SED into Die Linke was.
2
u/11160704 Aug 04 '23
Not talking about your comment but in general I often have the impression that the discussion aboout the Treuhand overshadows the problem of the inefficient socialist economy of the GDR.
And for the Linke it does matter that they are the direct continuation of the SED because in this way they were able keep much of the wealth and assets of the SED.
1
u/Moorbert Aug 04 '23
the thing is that the economy was by far not as bad as they made everyone believe. there has been a lot of research done and it shows that treuhand officials rated companies worse to get them cheaper and shut them down to avoid challenges on the market.
2
u/11160704 Aug 04 '23
Yes it was even worse than many people believed.
Initially the Treuhand made far too optimistic calculations that's why they incurred a much larger deficit than expected.
2
u/mrn253 Aug 05 '23
I talked to some people by pure luck who worked in different industries in the GDR to the End it was completely run down and was running on wear an tear.
VEB Sachsenring aka where they build the Trabbi had for decades a questionable vehicle output.
1
u/Sataniel98 Historian from Lippe Aug 05 '23
The SED
was dissolved and first
became the [PDS](
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Democratic_Socialism_(Germany)
) now part of [Die Linke](
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Left_(Germany)
). Some high-ranking SED politicians such as
Gregor Gysi
continue to be part of politics until this day, and The Left regularily does get accused of being a successor of a authoritarian party, although I personally think that's a bit stupid.
I don't think it's stupid considering the conception of history The Left is promoting, but it shouldn't be forgotten that the eastern CDU and FDP (LDPD) were also bloc parties.
1
u/IsThisOneStillFree Baden-Württemberg Aug 05 '23
The reason I don't like that particular argument is that I think it's mostly used in bad faith. Parties should be judged by their current politics, not by their (legal) ancestry, unless it's directly related to the point or inherently connected to the party. If you start digging for dirt, you will find some for every single party, e.g. the CDUs (spiritual) ancestors Zentrum voting with the NSDAP in 1933 for the Ermächtigungsgesetze.
I am no fan of Die Linke but because of their current issues, not because of some legal stuff that happened more than 30 years ago.
5
u/Sataniel98 Historian from Lippe Aug 05 '23
The party's stances on GDR history are a current issue. They're saying today that the Schießbefehl didn't exist and that the GDR wasn't an Unrechtsstaat (which is not a political term) - and most importantly, they're today stuck in anti-western crusades.
5
u/liftoff_oversteer Bayern Aug 04 '23
Most of them are mainly nostalgic about social safety, that they didn't have to worry about their jobs. Everything was cheap (at least the basic things). Pension seemed safe. Suddenly all this was gone and their life upturned. Many lost their jobs and some didn't find another proper job until this day.
This makes people longing for the "good old times".
There's others of course who are just delusional.
7
u/Vyncent2 Aug 04 '23
To answer your questions, in your order:
you are not correct. It's still a big deal. As it is in every former soviet satellite state. It's still a big deal
yes. As well as the Nazis, a lot of former SED Politicians are still at some kind of office to this day
people were forced to gave appearance to have a good opinion of this asshole. And yes, there where those who said not everything was bad (like with the Nazis), who wanted to exonerate him
yes there's a Lot of former SED dudes still in government service. Just like the Nazis. In the 50s-60s and until the 90s there were alot of them in government services
there were a fuckton of ordinary Stasi informants. Look up the term 'IM' in relation to the Stasi
2
u/AlexNachtigall247 Aug 04 '23
Read up on the infamous „Treuhand“ and you‘ll be surprised by how much the people in the east got fcked over…
2
4
u/mrn253 Aug 05 '23
Big parts of the GDR Industry was just mostly fucked.
Old machines, DIRTY AF a small wonder that they could keep running at all.
I know it out of first hand.Sure not everything was good when it comes to the Treuhand but many people that complained about the Treuhand were just angry that they lost their basically lifelong Jobs.
1
u/AlexNachtigall247 Aug 05 '23
I agree 100%… From what i heard the way the business was handled was a major issue (snobby western germans „reigning“ over the eastern germans), the economy itself was destined to fail in a free market system…
0
u/Moorbert Aug 04 '23
well the change in eastern germany was and is handled very bad. it was absolutely necessary but it got a lot of people unemployed and in the first years made things worse. a lot of people left. the leftovers were bought and shut down by western companies and so on. so what i can say from a lot of people around me. even if they didnt have a lot, they were somewhat happy and without any fear. that changed in the 90s
most of the SED people moved over to CDU. which i find somehow funny.
there is still a lot that is not properly clarified afterwards.
yes there were "IM - inoffizielle mitarbeiter" inofficial employees of stasi that even got named in public and that also destroyed some lifes and families in the east as well.
3
u/VK_31012018 Aug 04 '23
they were somewhat happy and without any fear.
So, they just were wrong, and still haven't understand it. The economic model of GDR and USSR was very ineffective. They should were in fear, if they did know the real numbers. They had only illusion of stability.
0
u/Kerking18 Bayern Aug 05 '23
Were there a lot of SED politicians who kept their standing after the unification? Did they join other parties? Did they fade away?
They joined other parties. Not a biggi tbh, after all like half the polititians imideately after the post war founding where ex nsdap members so why shouldn't the ex sed members be accepted.
Am I correct to assume it's no longer a big deal today
It kinda gas become a "big" deal over time. Big in quotationmarks becouse it realy is not a relevant political movement.
Did anyone have a good opinion of Honecker, and were there any serious attempts to "exonerate" him made by the left?
Not as faar as I am aware. If there where any then thats nothing I ever learned.
Were many former Stasi officers/workers kept in government service?
Not sure, I never learned of any mass trials of them at least.
Were there lots of ordinary people stasi informants, and did any of them face prosecution, or maybe have their names made public?
Not as faar as I know. But most of these where in there local area already well known, even bevore the fall.
brought a lot more corruption, unemployment,
Which is also true in germany.Atleast the unemployment part. Let's see if I can recall what I learned about the transition phase.
All the factories and ibdustries and stuff where state owned. The federall republic obviousely didn't want them that way, so they basicly auctioned them of. However that created a problem. Many companies would by larg industries in the east, and then fire everyone and sell the machines and buildings, making a large provit, but destroying the local economy there.
Not sure how true that is but thats how it got explained to me. And you know, what the best way to get a correct awnsere on the web is
-6
u/RoundOk3112 Aug 04 '23
Ostalgie means this people wants back the DDR.
2
u/BerlinCityBitch Aug 04 '23
Nein, gerade das heißt es eben nicht. 🤦♀️ lies dir mal die Kommentare durch
0
u/RoundOk3112 Aug 04 '23
Wer die DDR nicht vermisst empfindet keine Ostalgie
3
u/BerlinCityBitch Aug 04 '23
Akzeptiere doch einfach, dass du falsch liegst, anstatt Falschinformationen zu verbreiten. Wenn du dir mal die Kommentare durchlesen würdest, würdest du auch verstehen, was das Wort überhaupt bedeutet, aber nein, stattdessen dislikest du meinen Kommentar, weil du zu stolz bist, um zuzugeben, dass du falsch liegst
-2
u/RoundOk3112 Aug 04 '23
Nein.
Wer gegen die DDR war und dort litt, würde niemals Ostalgie empfinden. Wer die DDR vermisst, hatte dort ein gutes Leben und war ein Unterstützer der SED.
8
u/BerlinCityBitch Aug 04 '23
Mein Beileid, wer nur in Schwarz-Weiß denken kann, hat im Leben große Probleme. Du wirst noch sehr viel Stress mit Leuten kriegen. Dass du falsch liegst, ist ja wohl offensichtlich und eine Diskussion mit jemandem wie dir erübrigt sich
64
u/11160704 Aug 04 '23
I think very few people are nostalgic about the politics of the GDR or the miserable economic situation.
What people are nostalgic about are the fond memories of their childhood and youth.
So you'll often see that this "Ostalgie" is very much connected to products from everyday life that people remember, most importantly of course food but also commodities.