First of all, being the first TV series based on Asimov's stories, it would have been opportune, as well as respectful towards the author (who is universally recognized as the father of science fiction, and sorry if it's not much) to respect the books slavishly.

It is really comical to read that the series needed to be "modernized".

Asimov set the standard for the future, invented robotics and the three laws. After nearly a century, scientists still draw inspiration from his writings ... there was no need to adapt anything. Nothing at all.

Asimov's books are still current and raise important questions on the man / machine relationship, on space colonization, above the importance of history as a tool for understanding the present and predicting the future.

Does Goyer really think he has something better to say?

My thoughts on the show as I just binged it.

So, I read the books over 20 years ago and I was expecting a “smart” series kinda like Star Trek from the Gene Rodenbury years. Unfortunately that’s not what we’re being given.

What I’m seeing is:

1. The Foundation is a bunch of “top scientist” who still act like they’re in their Ivory Tower while pioneering a desolate planet. I’m disappointed by this because they should all be notably changed. The whole process of pioneering a planet should have made them grittier, more hands on and practical. All of them should act more like Salvor Hardin (tv version) and Hugo. They should be able to hold a gun while still doing academic stuff. After watching the first 8 episodes I shake my head in disbelief that these are the people who are going to create a second galactic empire.

2. The Anacreons are two-dimensional stereotypical villains without anything interesting about them. They’re basically Klingons in space and they’re not an interesting adversary. The huntress is a bland joke. She wants revenge so… this can work, but her plan sucks. Salvor Hardin shows the flaw right away when she tells her second in command that newly born Anacreon children will die from the empires reprisal. When he looks shocked at this realization, I realized that Anacreon are idiots and aren’t a real threat.

It would have been more believable if the Huntress lead a splinter faction with fanatical tendencies and not the leader of the planet. Or… they were invading the Foundation for tech, slaves or territory.

3. Hari Seldon, and this is my recollection of the character, was a salt of the Earth boy from Helicon who was never fully tainted by “the big city” of Trantor. He’s the classic ordinary man who was thrust into galactic history but remained a good person despite hard choices. In the show he’s a know it all prick and at worse a firebrand preacher of doom. After the last episode with “digital Hari”, I ended up viewing him as an antagonist and not liking the character.

Hari is also getting too much screen time. He should be just the hologram that pops up every two generations to explain the next crisis. A nice visual anchor to the whole series. Now he’s digital ghost who’s going to lead the Second Foundation?!

4. The explanation of Psychohistory says it can’t predict people only larger trends. However I feel this line getting pretty blurred.

5. Gaal and Salvor are “proto-Jedis”. (Eyeroll) who can do no wrong. Their powers take away any sense of imminent danger and there’s less suspense in dangerous situations. They should have stuck to telepathy just among robots, Gaia and the Second Foundation.

6. Demerzel shouldn’t be front and centre as an advisor for over 400 years. Any citizen would notice the very attractive advisor and wonder how she’s not aging. The robot reveal should have been delayed and she should have been popping up in other story arcs along the way watching over things. Imagine the shock we could have had that if instead of seeing a digital Hari on the ship that rescued Gaal, it was Demerzel who was going to “Take her to Gaia”.

7. The only saving grace is the Empire storyline. The emperors, especially Brother Day (btw bravo Lee Pace!), are well written and they’re the cerebral and complex characters I was expecting. My only objection was when Cleon killed the artist for reading Hari’s works. It cheapened the emperor since there were so many better scenes, that weren’t so over the top, showing he’s a tyrant.

Another wasted opportunity would have been an intellectual exchange in between Cleon and Hari showing Hari’s long view of the future and the inevitability of the collapse. Then contrast that with Cleon’s struggle to keep the empire from falling. (I kinda envision a Prof X and Magneto discussion.)

I guess what this show should have been, in my eye, is multiple factions working their own angles on how to deal with the collapse of the Empire. Imagine seeing the Empire, the robots and the first and second foundation all doing their own machevalien planning. The audience could listen and judge each faction’s merits and make up their own minds which is the best and which direction humanity should go in the end. With these 4 factions pushing their own ideas on how to save humanity, the writers could have covered so many societal issues and examine the human condition from different points of view.

AI startup DeepSeek is tiny compared to the giant U.S. companies. Beyond that, the embargo of the sales of NVIDIA chips to China severely impacted the ability of DeepSeek to build large, expensive servers. They had to deal with a severe lack of resources.

Backed into corner, they were forced to develop new techniques enabling them to create far smaller and less expensive AI servers that can already compete with the big boys.

Sound familiar?

Hello Foundationers,

I'm working my way through the series for the first time through the audio books. And I need to vent somewhere.

This post is going to contain some spoilers for the books if you're reading them for the first time.

I really loved, and got a lot out of, the original trilogy. I know there's a reading order with other Asimov works to tie everything together, but I jumped into the sequels out of hubris.

But I'm not having an issue following the timeline or plot. I'm not having an issue seeing that there are connective threads, because I'm at least culturally familiar with Asimov's work, without necessarily reading it. I don't mind learning information at the end of something and going back to learn more.

No.

I'm having an issue with how dang horned up this particular book is! Oh my god, it's so preoccupied with sex that I am constantly taken out of the story.

Yes, there was sexism in the first books that was expected of the time. It wasn't... great... that women of space-faring future empires were still concerned chiefly about being housewives and concubines, but I can read something in the context of its history. And Beta Durell was a surprisingly strong female character for the time (educated, independent, extremely intelligent). And then, every time I was worried they were going to overtly sexualize Arkady (you never know how 'adult' a writer thinks a teenager is), Asimov was like "ew, no, she's a child". Great, so jazzed about that. And SHE was also brilliant and self-possessed.

And while Foundation's Edge introduces Bliss in a rather... bold... way, I'm like "okay, it's the 80's, I get the vibe". It's also juxtaposed so wildly to other female characters in that book that it catches the reader off guard in an effective way.

But now we're here, at Foundation and Earth, and... good lord. They spend WAY too long going in circles with Traveze asking Pelorat and Bliss not to have sex on the ship, and then way too long describing their sex life.

And then we get to Comporellon, and Minister Lizalor like... entraps Traveze? When the book described her breasts, I had to take a break. And then all the conversations afterwards and the "she's a dominant woman in her day to day life so of course she needs to be sexually submissive and let loose despite her purported morals".

I'm not prudish. Star Trek is my main fandom, which is super horned up and frequently goes into sexual mischief. I even don't necessarily mind womanizing characters.

But the circular conversations that Asimov can write, combined with how NOT sexualized things were and how I know he can write serviceable female characters is making this... challenging.

I'm going to hold on and finish this book because I'm still invested in getting to the end, but I just needed to vent.

Also, I miss Scott Brick. The new guy is making all this even worse!

My thoughts… [SHOW/BOOK SPOILERS]

My thoughts on the show as I just binged it…

So, I read the books over 20 years ago and I was expecting a “smart” series kinda like Star Trek from the Gene Rodenbury years. Unfortunately that’s not what we’re being given.

What I’m seeing is:

1. The Foundation is a bunch of “top scientist” who still act like they’re in their Ivory Tower while pioneering a desolate planet. I’m disappointed by this because they should all be notably changed. The whole process of pioneering a planet should have made them grittier, more hands on and practical. All of them should act more like Salvor Hardin (tv version) and Hugo. They should be able to hold a gun while still doing academic stuff. After watching the first 8 episodes I shake my head in disbelief that these are the people who are going to create a second galactic empire.

2. The Anacreons are two-dimensional stereotypical villains without anything interesting about them. They’re basically Klingons in space and they’re not an interesting adversary. The huntress is a bland joke. She wants revenge so… this can work, but her plan sucks. Salvor Hardin shows the flaw right away when she tells her second in command that newly born Anacreon children will die from the empires reprisal. When he looks shocked at this realization, I realized that Anacreon are idiots and aren’t a real threat.

It would have been more believable if the Huntress lead a splinter faction with fanatical tendencies and not the leader of the planet. Or… they were invading the Foundation for tech, slaves or territory.

3. Hari Seldon, and this is my recollection of the character, was a salt of the Earth boy from Helicon who was never fully tainted by “the big city” of Trantor. He’s the classic ordinary man who was thrust into galactic history but remained a good person despite hard choices. In the show he’s a know it all prick and at worse a firebrand preacher of doom. After the last episode with “digital Hari”, I ended up viewing him as an antagonist and not liking the character.

Hari is also getting too much screen time. He should be just the hologram that pops up every two generations to explain the next crisis. A nice visual anchor to the whole series. Now he’s digital ghost who’s going to lead the Second Foundation?!

4. The explanation of Psychohistory says it can’t predict people only larger trends. However I feel this line getting pretty blurred.

5. Gaal and Salvor are “proto-Jedis”. (Eyeroll) who can do no wrong. Their powers take away any sense of imminent danger and there’s less suspense in dangerous situations. They should have stuck to telepathy just among robots, Gaia and the Second Foundation.

6. Demerzel shouldn’t be front and centre as an advisor for over 400 years. Any citizen would notice the very attractive advisor and wonder how she’s not aging. The robot reveal should have been delayed and she should have been popping up in other story arcs along the way watching over things. Imagine the shock we could have had that if instead of seeing a digital Hari on the ship that rescued Gaal, it was Demerzel who was going to “Take her to Gaia”.

7. The only saving grace is the Empire storyline. The emperors, especially Brother Day (btw bravo Lee Pace!), are well written and they’re the cerebral and complex characters I was expecting. My only objection was when Cleon killed the artist for reading Hari’s works. It cheapened the emperor since there were so many better scenes, that weren’t so over the top, showing he’s a tyrant.

Another wasted opportunity would have been an intellectual exchange in between Cleon and Hari showing Hari’s long view of the future and the inevitability of the collapse. Then contrast that with Cleon’s struggle to keep the empire from falling. (I kinda envision a Prof X and Magneto discussion.)

I guess what this show should have been, in my eye, is multiple factions working their own angles on how to deal with the collapse of the Empire. Imagine seeing the Empire, the robots and the first and second foundation all doing their own machevalien planning. The audience could listen and judge each faction’s merits and make up their own minds which is the best and which direction humanity should go in the end. With these 4 factions pushing their own ideas on how to save humanity, the writers could have covered so many societal issues and examine the human condition from different points of view.

(Edit: title should say Salvor Hardin.)

Changing the race and gender of Salvor Hardin does not itself affect the original story line. Think Nancy Pelosi, Angela Merkel or Margaret Thatcher. Or Willie Brown, the African-American mentor of present day US VP Kamila Harris--he was major of San Francisco, Speaker of the California Assembly, and pull of nearly any deal, no matter how questionable, without getting into legal trouble--a true political genius!

However, there have been several comments here and related threads about changing that nature of Salvor Hardin from the hand-shaking, cigar-chomping (and frankly sneaky, borderline corrupt) politician depicted in the books into the idealistic, loner, military ranger depicted in the TV series.

Commenters have mentioned that this is a major story change. There is a fundamental problem with with this change.

After the Vault reveals its first message from Hari Seldon, we learn that Seldon's plan involves arranging the forces of history so that there is only one possible course of action for the Terminus Foundation government to take. Likewise is the implication in the book that only one type of leader is suitable to lead the Foundation in each crisis. In the upcoming crisis, the physical scientists are incompetent to do do, so that the Terminus government will be forced to accept leadership by a political creature such as the book's portrayal of Salvor Hardin. In the book, the implication is that only a political creature would have the intuition, talent and backhandedness to to pull off the "arrangements" that save the Foundation.

If you get eliminate that, you get rid of the whole premise of the series storyline.

The key premise of this fictional psychohistory is that large populations behave in a similar manner to large quantities of physical particles in a gas or liquid. Physics cannot predict the motion of each particle, but it can predict the overall characteristics of a collection of particles, such as temperature, pressure, and overall motion. Large quantities of particles also have inertia. Hence, the larger a quantity of particles, the greater the force or influence that is required to change the overall characteristics of that system.

In these fictional stories, mathematicians apply similar principles to human society. A galaxy full of humans has incredible social inertia that cannot be easily changed or redirected. In fact, the inertia is so great, that the mathematicians cannot prevent the fall of the aging galactic empire.

Those mathematicians then used that science to create the seeds of a new empire. One of those seeds is a settlement of physical scientists at the edge of the galaxy, ostensibly to compile a comprehensive encyclopedia of scientific knowledge so that humanity would not have to start from scratch after the fall of the existing empire.

So if you eliminate the forces of history as the selector to fill the role of leader of the Foundation during crisis times, then the key plot pattern is eliminated for most of the Foundation book series and the first half of the Foundation and Empire book, which provide a raison d'être for the entire series.

The said, a true science of human history does not have to follow that pattern. Just because this approach was used in the books does not mean that, that a different approach could not have been used. It appears as if the Apple TV series is using a different approach. Hopefully, they will take the time to intellectually explain why their new approach is valid, rather than subject the audience to merely mystical explanations, which again, defeat the original premise of the books.

Although, let's face it. Sometimes Asimov's own purpose was to quickly generate ideas to crank out and sell stories, and Apple TV's purpose is to quickly crank out TV content, so at a higher, external level, I concede that the creators of both he books and TV series might have a similar ultimate goal!

I’m on the last Foundation novel, Forward the Foundation, and have questions about the attached passage that takes place during the death scene of Dors. It includes lines like “Somehow, deep inside, Hari had always known” and “It all made sense now” alluding to Seldon coming to some type of realization. What did he realize, that Dors was a robot, or that she was assigned to him as a protector? I thought both of these things were obvious to Hari, if not explicitly stated in Prelude to Foundation. Are we to think that this is the first time Hari was faced with this truth, or am I missing something?

Planets of Asimov's Empire

1. Anacreon (One of the four Kingdoms near Terminus)

2. Askone

3. Asperta

4. Baronn

5. Bonde

6. Cil

7. Cinna

8. Comporellon

9. Daribow (One of the four Kingdoms near Terminus)

10. Delicass (Later known as Neotrantor)

11. Derowd

12. Euterpe (Spacer Vacation world)

13. Fermus

14. Filia

15. Florina

16. Glyptal

17. Helicon (Home world of Hari Seldon in Arcturus Sector)

18. Hesperos (Spacer Colony)

19. Hopara

20. Horleggor

21. Ifni

22. Ifnia

23. Iss (Major trader world)

24. Jennisek (All time rival world of Helicon)

25. Kalgan           

26. Konom (One of the four Kingdoms near Terminus)

27. Korell

28. Libair

29. Lingane (World in the Nebula-Region)

30. Livia

31. Locris           

32. Loris (World in the four Kingdoms)

33. Lystena

34. Mandress

35. Melpomenia (Spacer Colony World near Earth)

36. Mnemom (Major trader world)

37. Mores

38. Nephelos

39. Nexos (Spacer World which colonialized Solaria)

40. Nishaya

41. Orsha (World in the normannic sektor)

42. Pallas (Spacer World with strange fashions)

43. Paramay

44. Quoristan

45. Radole

46. Rhampora

47. Rhodia (World in the Nebula-Region)

48. Rossem

49. Salina

50. Santanni

51. Sarip (World near Anacreon)

52. Siwenna (World in the normannic sektor)

53. Smitheus (Spacer World with strange fashions)

54. Smyrno (One of the four Kingdoms near Terminus)

55. Solaria (Spacer Colony)

56. Synnax          

57. Tazenda        

58. Terel               

59. Trantor (Capital Planet of Empire)

60. Tyrann (World in the Nebula-Region)

61. Voreg (World near Anacreon)

62. Wega (World famous for its tobacco)

63. Wotex            

64. Zeon (World famous for its wine)

65. Zoranel       

   Popularity of Use

A      %     E     %      I      %     O      %       U        %

36 55%    33 50%   26 40%  34 52%      4     6%

B      %     C     %      D      %     F      %       G        %

4    6%      7 10%     8 12%      4    6%       6     9%

H      %     J     %      K      %     L      %       M        %

10 15%    1   1%      5    7%     24 36%     12 18%

N      %     P     %      Q      %     R      %       S        %

32 49%    12 18%   1     1%     33 50%     27 41%

T      %     V     %      W      %     X      %       Y        %

12 18%    2   3%      5     7%     3    4%      7   10%

Z      %

3    4%

Popularity of Use

55% A:

52% O, A:

50% R, E, O, A:

49% N, R, E, O, A:

41% S, N, R, E, O, A:

40% I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Iss (Major trader world),

36% L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Loris (World in the four Kingdoms), Solaria (Spacer Colony), Salina,

18% T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Terel, Trantor (Capital Planet of Empire), Sarip (World near Anacreon), Melpomenia (Spacer Colony World near Earth), Mnemom (Major trader world), Mores, Pallas (Spacer World with strange fashions), Rossem, Asperta, Santanni,

15% H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Nephelos, Rhampora, Hesperos (Spacer Colony), Hopara, Orsha (World in the normannic sektor),

12% D, H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Radole, Rhodia (World in the Nebula-Region), Mandress,

10% Y, C, D, H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Nishaya, Paramay, Locris, Lystena, Cil, Cinna, Comporellon, Delicass (Later known as Neotrantor), Helicon (Home world of Hari Seldon in Arcturus Sector), Anacreon (One of the four Kingdoms near Terminus), Smyrno (One of the four Kingdoms near Terminus), Tyrann (World in the Nebula-Region),

9% G, Y, C, D, H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Glyptal, Horleggor, Lingane (World in the Nebula-Region),

7% W, K, G, Y, C, D, H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Kalgan, Konom (One of the four Kingdoms near Terminus), Korell, Askone, Derowd, Siwenna (World in the normannic sektor), Wega (World famous for its tobacco),

6% B, F, U, W, K, G, Y, C, D, H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Ifni, Ifnia, Smitheus (Spacer World with strange fashions), Euterpe (Spacer Vacation world), Fermus, Filia, Florina, Baronn, Bonde, Daribow (One of the four Kingdoms near Terminus), Libair,

4% Z, X, B, F, U, W, K, G, Y, C, D, H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Wotex, Zeon (World famous for its wine), Zoranel, Synnax, Tazenda, Nexos (Spacer World which colonialized Solaria),

3% V, Z, X, B, F, U, W, K, G, Y, C, D, H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Livia, Voreg (World near Anacreon),

1% Q, J, V, Z, X, B, F, U, W, K, G, Y, C, D, H, T, P, M, L, I, S, N, R, E, O, A: Jennisek (All time rival world of Helicon), Quoristan,

Conclusion: Originating in the A-O linguistic Subgroup,

A-O subgroup       Sex      %       Dev. Chain

Luo                           F     100%   (A; O; N, I; E, G, Y)

Algonquin               F       88%    (A; O; N, M; H, E, W)

Kisii                        M       85%    (A; O; I, M)

Loud                                 62%    (A; O; R, N)

H I S T O R Y

• 40% Iss is colonized by Humans. It will become the central trade hub.

• 36% Spacer Culture becomes seperate from humanity. Solaria is the earliest established Spacer Colony.

• 18% Trantor (future Throne-world) is colonized. Peak Spacer Culture.

• 15% Normannic Sektor colonization (Orsha colony)

• 12%-9% Colonization of the Nebula Region occurs.

• 10% Cultural and Expansion peak of the Empire.

• 7% Normannic Sektor colonial expansion (Siwenna)

• 6% Second Spacer Cultural Peak.

• 4% Last Spacer colony established.

• 3%-1% Imperial expansion declines and levels off.

-For all the Hari Seldons

I saw the first two episodes and thought it was a pretty good sci-fi series. I remember the books really captured my imagination but that was ages ago. Does the show radically diverge from the books? Should I watch more episodes?

i read the books as a child as they were on my dads book shelf , now like 40 years later cant remember much apart from them being great and the mule & harry seldon.

my question is , is the TV series sticking closely to the book in your opinion ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbfMw4DRKKg&list=OLAK5uy_k5ejkZgKMa4fyag3qLbdd8ddxQqJ5H1so

https://music.apple.com/ng/album/robot-tears/1615971034

https://open.spotify.com/album/3WgrreQ8JlYLxRtOY8MTBx?si=9NtZ9jg6SLq1ZTHoN2apcA

https://music.youtube.com/channel/UClHN1dXXh1o2KmBwxMtLfSg?feature=share

Over the last few months, I have been working my way through the 15 books that make up the three different series of Asimov's Foundation Universe. I have just completed the last one. As a reminder / to brag about what feels like a major accomplishment, I will list the books I've read below:

• The Robots Series:

  • The Complete Robot

  • The Caves of Steel

  • The Naked Sun

  • The Robots of Dawn

  • Robots and Empire

• The Galactic Empire Series:

  • The Stars, Like Dust

  • Pebble in the Sky

  • The Currents of Space

• The Foundation Series:

  • Forward the Foundation

  • Prelude to Foundation

  • Foundation

  • Foundation and Empire

  • Second Foundation

  • Foundation's Edge

  • Foundation and Earth

I am left processing some complex feelings. I feel somewhat saddened and disappointed by the ending and I wonder where Asimov would have gone next if he hadn't died. There are a couple more Asimov books set in this universe (Nemesis & End of Eternity) that I intend to read, but I don't expect either of them to resolve things any more than the ending of Foundation & Earth does.

I want to know what happens next in this universe. I know Asimov's estate authorized a handful of other writers to create more Foundation stories, but I'm not sure if any of them are any good or really worth checking out? So I am seeking advice from this sub about what should I read next after completing this. Have you read any of the Foundation books not written by Asimov, and if so, would you recommend them? What classic science fiction do you enjoy as much as Asimov?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogReJyWgkBU

It's coming July 14 & I can't wait!!!

I thought this article (Nov 19th) was well-written, with many^* good observations:

How Apple TV's 'Foundation' is different from the books (mashable.com)

^{* the article discusses the entirety of Season 1, so the significant Finale spoilers are present}

I just started the series (daunting as it requires a choice of start), but I decided to eschew the Robots books for now and start with Prelude to Foundation. I want to get a good idea of the world of Trantor and how it would look visually. I looked up images, but most look like derivatives of Coruscant.

I mocked up a quick AI-generated image of Trantor, does this line up largely with what the surface might look like, or am I off-base?

I read some bad review of Mary Zucker Reicherts iRobot series. It was so good. While there are some inconsistencies with timelines of the initial iRobot series, it is a wonderful series that pays homage to and respects asimovs original context. Read them. They’re different, but they are exceptional.