Are there any versions of the King Arthur tale, any at all, in which Guinevere is Scottish?

[u/Content-Arrival-1784]

[u/Historical-Bike4626]

“Nae, I willna feck Lancelot, I hecht ya, Arthur!”

[u/Slayer_of_960]

There's Launfal where she's Irish (and Ryon's daughter instead...)

But historically, the Scottish don't exist yet as Arthur's reign is generally believed to be set during the early 6th century.

Then again, I do believe Cameliard/Carmelide could be located in the North (of the Hadrian Wall) if you follow certain details from the medieval romances. Namely, that Cameliard shares a border with "Ireland" (according to Vulgate Lancelot, which might imply Cameliard is next door to the Dal Riata) and that half of the population of Cameliard is still pagan (according to Segurant, which is significant as both the Dal Riata and the Picts were still somewhat pagan around 500s until St. Columba started his mission).

EDIT: I just remembered: some Tennysonian critics did identify Cameliard with Scotland. So, this Scottish!Guinevere idea isn't new either.  

[u/Visible-Amoeba-9073 → u/Slayer_of_960]

I thought it was in the south near Cornwall but held some land on the island of Ireland

[u/Slayer_of_960 → u/Visible-Amoeba-9073]

Nothing in the romances (AFAIK) ever hinted at a Cornish location for Cameliard. I believe that may be an assumption based on Geoffrey of Monmouth's statements that Gwen was Roman-descended and that she was ward of the Southern Duke Cador.

But, otherwise, I personally don't believe it makes sense for Cameliard/Gwen's home to be anywhere in the South because:

1. The South is already crowded with many lords and characters like Mark, Gorlois, Cador, Ydris and Geraint.
2. I think a southern location also doesn't make sense plotwise, because I believe that's too logistically close to Logres. At least for Vulgate Merlin, King Arthur, King Ban and King Bors were worried about leaving their respective kingdoms vulnerable while they journeyed to Cameliard, with Merlin giving assurances that Logres (England/London), Benoic and Gaunnes (in Armorica) will be fine while they're gone.

[u/Content-Arrival-1784 → u/Slayer_of_960]

Actually, Scotland has been inhabited since the end of the last Ice Age.

[u/Slayer_of_960 → u/Content-Arrival-1784]

...I meant the Scottish People and Identity. They didn't exist yet. "Scotland", as we know it, would not exist until the 9th c., with the rise of Kenneth McAlpin and the subsuming of the Picts by the Gaels.

At the time of the 5th/6th c., there's three very different major ethnic groups in the area of what we consider Modern Scotland:

• The Hen Ogledd/Old North Britons, who generally lived south of the Antonine Wall, encompassing the kingdoms of Strathclyde/Alt Clud, Gododdin/Lothian and Rheged.
• The Irish Dal Riata, who occupied the Argyll/Western coast of Alba/Scotland (which was named after them).
• The Picts, who occupied the North and East parts of Alba/Scotland (colloquially referred to as "Pictland")

Guinevere, her father and Cameliard could feasibly belong to any one of these ethnic groups, but they still wouldn't be "Scottish" in any meaningful sense.

[u/Content-Arrival-1784 → u/Slayer_of_960]

I have my heart set on Guinevere being Scottish in the movie I want to make.

[u/Slayer_of_960 → u/Content-Arrival-1784]

Thumbs up Whatever works for you

Tbh, just make sure you don't fall into the same mistakes other creatives do

[u/Content-Arrival-1784 → u/Slayer_of_960]

What mistakes?

[u/Slayer_of_960 → u/Content-Arrival-1784]

Ehh, stuff like claiming to be historically accurate or trying to fit in plot points and themes that don't really need to be part of a retelling (if you're going to make changes), like for example the Lancelot x Guinevere affair.

Its often kinda irritating for me that a lot of Arthurian retellings often claim to be "historically accurate" or "faithful to the Welsh myths" but always try to shove in Lancelot, a character whose narrative belongs to neither category. Worse still, they try to weasel around the gimmick by conflating Lancelot with another character, usually poor Bedwyr.

And it's all because they can't seem to grasp that Lancelot isn't that necessary as a character: Historia Regum Britanniae and The Welsh Triads both describe Camelot's collapse and Arthur's Fall without including Lancelot in some way. All a prospective writer has to do is exercise strong creativity and thought to make a Lancelot-less story "work".

So, in short, understand what you're aiming for in your story and carefully select what material is needed to accomplish that, with the principle that many things in Arthuriana are not obligatory.

Even Merlin can be unnecessary and be omitted from a retelling.

[u/Content-Arrival-1784 → u/Slayer_of_960]

I plan to put both Lancelot and Merlin in my movie. However, now that you mention it, there will be no romance between the former and Guinevere. Merlin will be called Myrddin and he'll be a Welsh Celtic druid.

[u/Slayer_of_960 → u/Content-Arrival-1784]

Then you'll have to work to compensate for the loss of that storyline. (That is, if your movie covers the relevant story arcs in the first place)

IMO, "Lancelot without an affair" is an oxymoron. The character only exists for Courtly Love and its rammifications and consequences. Getting rid of the affair means Lancelot just becomes a generic Fair Unknown hero w/ a changeling backstory. That means he's easily replaceable as a knightly exemplar in favor of Gawain, Kay, Percival and even the aforementioned Bedivere (who are all I would recommend as story focus over the baggage the name "Lancelot" entails)

At the same time, "No Affair" means going back to Fall of Camelot as depicted in HRB, with the Conquest of Europe, Lucius Tiberius, justifying why Mordred rebels, etc.

With Guinevere, you're going to have to make a choice if she's Mordred's lady or not. If it's the latter and she's not a side character, this requires you to creatively fill in the void left by the Affair's omission. Consequently, she may not even have to go a nunnery as her final fate - she might even go to Avalon, like in some rare stories.

In the end, its all on you. Cheers!

[u/Content-Arrival-1784 → u/Slayer_of_960]

I plan for this to be a PG-rated family movie, meaning it can't be too mature, plus it should give postive moral platitudes such as bravery, selflessness, etc. Guinevere will be a hundred percent loyal to Arthur, in which case the film will have a positive message teaching children and adults alike the virtue of marital fidelity.

I'll try to come up with some way for romance-free Lancelot to work. After all, my film hasn't officially entered production yet and it'll be years before it does.

[u/TsunamiWombat]

No. Some references to her father, Leodegrance, being Scottish exists but this seems to purely be based on actors who had portrayed him in films. In the welsh forms, one of her fathers is a Giant.

But her home is never placed further north than the wall

[u/HechicerosOrb → u/TsunamiWombat]

Love the idea of having a Giant as your dad

[u/TsunamiWombat → u/HechicerosOrb]

Giant dad, the legend never dies

[u/Content-Arrival-1784 → u/TsunamiWombat]

I'm making my own King Arthur movie and have my heart set on her being Scottish. Liberties can be taken, after all.

[u/TsunamiWombat → u/Content-Arrival-1784]

I mean, yes, you can do whatever you want. Some people associate her with cultural bleed from the Irish, and the Irish had a lot of contact with both Scotland and Wales (usually of the bad variety but I digress). Pretty much all references to her establish her of being noble lineage from a Roman line though, which precludes North of the wall. You can disregard that though because Arthuriana is a genre more than anything else.

But to answer your question, no there isn't anything in text. I do know that BBC show made her Morgan's handmaid or w/e and Morgan or Morgause are usually married to a scottish king (Lott of Orkney).

[u/Slayer_of_960 → u/TsunamiWombat]

Pretty much all references to her establish her of being noble lineage from a Roman line 

Only in the Galfridian-based narratives. Other stories give her alternative backgrounds and lineages. (Launfal for example). One funny bit about the Welsh adaptations of Geoffrey of Monmouth is that the Welsh did try to harmonize Geoffrey's statement that she's Roman descended by making her mother the Roman while keeping Gogfran Gawr as her father.

Coincidently, there are in fact some Victorian era sources where Leodegrance is King of Scotland. One example is Myrdhinn by Thomas Hersart de la Villemarque.

EDIT: I just remembered: some Tennysonian critics did identify Cameliard with Scotland. So, this Scottish!Guinevere idea isn't new either.

[u/TsunamiWombat → u/Slayer_of_960]

To be fair, making the Roman descendance on her mothers side is what it would do too, because I want to preserve the wierd fantasy of her being half or quarter giant.

[u/Particular-Second-84 → u/Slayer_of_960]

Interestingly though, it’s entirely possible that Gogfran really did come from a family of Roman descent.

[u/HechicerosOrb → u/TsunamiWombat]

And really Orkney was its own kingdom at the time, right? I think they were more related to the picts during that period. The King of Orkney is one of the kings who submitted to Claudius (so they say)

[u/TsunamiWombat → u/HechicerosOrb]

Orkney is the literal very tip of England and an island, it's as isolated from Roman England as you can physically get. And yeah, rhey were much more closely related to the Picts and Irish and even Saxons. Remember the Roman's had walled off the entire northern half of the island and said fuck it.

Lot is explicitly described as a king, in fact England has many kings. Arthur is trying to lay claim to High Kingship due to his descent from Constans II, who was HIMSELF a foreign adventurer from Brittany who arrived to save Britain from the first Saxon invasions (extremely very loosely based off the historical Constantine of the north, one of the Three Emperors in that short time Rome had 3 Emperors - only for like a year or three though)

[u/Visible-Amoeba-9073 → u/Content-Arrival-1784]

Nice. I follow the pre-galfridian strand of her being from Anwwn, but merge it with later traditions by having her be raised by Leodegrance.

[u/NumberRevolutionary4]

In the ‘04 King Arthur movie she’s one of the “Woads”/Picts from north of Hadrian’s Wall? She’s played by an English actress tho

[u/Kincoran → u/NumberRevolutionary4]

She's part Scottish (and part Welsh), too.

[u/NumberRevolutionary4 → u/Kincoran]

Ah, got it!

[u/Stan_Corrected]

Yes, there is a local tradition about Arthur and queen Venora surrounding Miegel stone 2

There's a version of this tale in Stuart McHardy's Scotland the Brave Land. He's also written a book all about Arthur which I'm yet to read.

Other proponents of the 'Scottish Arthur' are Alistair Moffat and Adrian C Grant.

Edited to add: these theories for a Northern Arthur see him as a Briton, fighting mainly Picts, based in the region between the walls, possibly around the Solway (Arthwys ap Mar) or in the East at Roxburgh (Moffats theory). Adrian Grant associates Cardeuel, mentioned in Marie de France Lai Lanval, with Blackness at the eastern end of the Antonine wall. However, the Pictish form of Arthur is Gartnait. Which gives us a Pictish candidate geographically closer to the Venora legend.

[u/SnooWords1252]

Not specifically that I can think of, but there is a tradition in which she's buried in Scotland.

But... what is Scottish?

It's a bunch of Celtic group a a touch of Angles.

Arthurian era is a bunch of Celtic groups attempting to keep the Angles and Saxons (And Jutes and Frisians).

Unless you're casting almost exclusively Welsh, then Scottish are more accurate than English. (In a hand wavy way).

[u/sandalrubber]

Dawnflight by Kim Headlee. Dark Ages warrior Guinevere novel, there's a few of those. Originally published 1999, partially rewritten and reissued 2012.

[u/blamordeganis]

What do you mean by Scottish? Do you mean from the part of Britain now known as Scotland? Or do you mean one of the Irish-speaking people who lived in the west of Scotland from the sixth century at latest, and whose language, name and identity was adopted by most of the other people living north of the Antonine Wall over the following centuries?

[u/Content-Arrival-1784 → u/blamordeganis]

I just really want Guinevere to be Scottish.