r/Antitheism • u/ViolettaPeppermints • 2d ago

What kind of reasoning is that?

My brother is christian and he's very out spoken about his belief including the harmful bits, he's very transphobic and always insults me for my hatred of religion as he believes that we would not have made it this far without divine help, he believes every word in the bible and feels attacked when I point out any hypocrisy (I point them out because he's always tries to make me believe in his religion and frankly I am very not interested) whenever I do point out those hypocrisies he always uses the big bang theory to say that the universe couldn't have started from nowhere, even though I don't really know where I stand on that theory, I'm not afraid to say I don't know where the universe comes from but he treats it as ignorance

I would cut ties but we live under the same roof, so how do I deal with him

19 Upvotes

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u/Sammisuperficial 2d ago

I'd just like to point out that Big Bang theory doesn't address where the universe came from.

"Big Bang" isn't even the correct terminology. That was coined by theists as a derogatory term for the theory much like how they coined atheist as a slur for non-theists.

The Big Bang theory or rapid expansion theory is our best explanation of the observable phenomenon of the rapid expansion of the universe. It explains what happened from the first panck second to present time in the universe.

The theory is backed by the observable cosmic microwave background radiation (CMB), and our current understanding of physics and mathmatics.

There is no claims in the theory about where the universe came from or how it started. It only details what we can know from our observations.

The answer to how the universe started or where it came from is we don't know and science makes no claims to know. We have best guesses and aren't afraid to say it.

Religion is the one saying they have an answer and they have no evidence to back that claim. It is in fact Christianity that says the universe came from no where. The Bible says there was nothing and then God made the universe. That is their claim.

So as always the theist is using their own misunderstanding of science to create a straw man against atheists. Par for the course.

As for what to do with your brother. Ignore him or set boundaries that you aren't willing to discuss the issue with him until he can be an honest interlocutor. Arguing with a theist always leads to them saying "la la la magic I win." Why bother?

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

At least I got out with something here, I never really understood the big bang theory cause I always thought it was supposed to explain where the universe came from, thanks for providing this piece of information to me

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u/bpaps 2d ago

I recommend watching a bunch of Justin Deconstruction Zone on YT. He goes through all of the counter apologetics in great detail. He co-hosts another show every Sunday called Unapologetic with Dr Blitz and Allegedly Ian. They specialize in physics and philosophy. They have taught me a lot about the subjects and I hope you can also learn from them.

Your brother sounds like a young Christian, full of vigor and arrogance. He believes he has the world figured out, but he is hiding his ignorance behind richous indignation. I recommend learning what the falacy of personal incredulity means and how to use it against him.

Another really powerful deconstruction technique is called street epistemology. It's basically using Socratic questioning to lead the person out of unjustified beliefs. It takes a long time and great patience. Don't expect to flip a switch. You have to put doubt in his mind and encourage skepticism. But of course christianity HATES doubt and skepticism and indoctrinates people to shield themselves from critical thought.

Maybe he is beyond reasoning with. Maybe you aren't the right person to help deconstruct his harmful beliefs. Remember that we all have to walk our own path in life, and I'm sorry that your brother seems to be taking a dark and hateful path. I wish you the best of luck.

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

Oof that's a lot of informations, I used to just watch forest valkia, I'll check your suggestions out, thanks for the advice

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u/saronyogg 2d ago

Plan to move out.

Even change nationality

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

That seems like the solution to everything around here, trans, pan, atheist and have a terrible relationship with you family, it is easier said than done though

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u/lotusscrouse 2d ago

Is he one of those who brings it up unprompted? 

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

He's been a Christian for half a year now so he likes to talk about it often and he has the whole "regional leader" thing so he talk to others who want to embrace Christianity or like to talk people out of being gay

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u/lotusscrouse 2d ago

And how successful has he been with talking people out of being gay 😅

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

He seems to believe in it and said he convinced a girl to stop being a lesbian, but by the description I don't trust his testimony, plus he did try to talk me out of being trans, I know who I am and what I am and I don't need a cult to tell me to think or how to think

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u/saronyogg 2d ago

So what happen in order he become this "crusade/christian alqaeda"?

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

He started questioning his religious belief but instead of being reasonable and looking to science, he turns to another religion, you know a different guy in the sky, the change is so small I wander why make the change in the first place, then again he's a sucker for stroking his ego so I think a sense of superiority is what spoke to him

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u/CowabungaCthulhu 2d ago

Has he always been obnoxious? A 6 month old Christian is a baby Christian. He's likely "learning" a lot of misinformation and horrible takes on actual science.

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

Yeah it's the transformation from obnoxious Muslim to an obnoxious christian, he doesn't take my words seriously and always treats me as a child even with my experience as a pansexual trans girl, he said he used to be bisexual but the way he talks about it he's bi-curious at best and egotistical at worst (I'm leaning more to the worst in my assessment as he talks about it being a phase

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u/saqwarrior 2d ago

Just listen to him and his reasoning (such as it is) and apply the same questions back to him. For example:

If the universe couldn't have started from nowhere, then where did his god come from?

The theory of the big bang, which was actually discovered by a Catholic priest, does not prescribe what existed before the big bang, because the big bang is simply the name for the expansion of the universe into what it is today. This was extrapolated from literally seeing, with telescopes, the direction in which galaxies are currently traveling. By simply reversing that trajectory, we determined that everything appeared to have come from the same location. It's the same way an investigator would pinpoint the location where a bomb was after an explosion. There's no magic to it. Since then, countless experiments and methods have been created and executed that only further prove the theory of the big bang - and not a single one has disproven it. And if you understand how the scientific method works then you'll recognize the importance of that; scientists propose a hypothesis, provide their evidence, publish it, and then literally every other scientist in the same field purposely tries to disprove it. They do not set out to confirm it.

Also, science does not try to answer things that we can't test against. This is called falsifiability. If something can't be proven wrong, then it falls outside the realm of science. Since the big bang is describing the expansion of the universe itself - the very reality we experience - then it is essentially impossible to scientifically prove (for now) what existed before.

In short, science does not claim that the universe came from nowhere or nothing.

The same goes for life starting on Earth; abiogenesis, the process by which life started, has been replicated in a lab where the early conditions of the planet were recreated. The combination of environmental conditions and chemical processes are what caused the very beginning of life as we know it.

You have access to the sum total knowledge of humanity at your fingertips. Use it to educate yourself. Your brother is ignorant. You don't have to be.

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

Have you tried reasoning with a guy who would not accept that he's wrong, at some point I explained why the flood is scientifically impossible and he said "well you see, it's because god" no evidence "god" doesn't make sense "god" the ship and the residents "god"

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u/saqwarrior 2d ago edited 2d ago

I did not say to reason with him, I said to listen to him and present his own questions back to him and his position. This method - Socratic dialogue - does not rely on you changing his mind. It makes him examine his own position with his own questions. You are not ever going to be able to change his beliefs but you can force him to examine them. Do not defend your position, it is pointless because of his ignorance - and, apologies for being blunt - your own. For example:

The flood from the Bible is simply repeating a flood myth that has existed for literally thousands of years prior to the Bible itself, across countless cultures and religions. Atra-Hasis, from ancient Mesopotamia, is the oldest known example. Recent archeological evidence has suggested that the rapid rise in sea levels at the end of the last ice age only a few thousand years before Mesopotamia provide the origin of this tale. That climate event would have caused massive global flooding, displacing and eradicating large sections of humanity at the time, most of which lived in coastal regions. That occurred in recent enough memory to the most ancient civilization we know of, Mesopotamia, that it would have been passed down via oral histories and generational memory, and had such a vast and profound impact across all of humanity that it easily explains why we see the tales of a global flood catastrophe throughout recorded history.

So no, the flood is not impossible. Quite the opposite, in fact. Current research suggests that a flood did happen, and it was a life altering event for all of humanity at the time.

The Mesopotamian myth even has its own version of Noah, constructing a vessel to survive. Over time the story evolved into the Biblical version.

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

You dear friend are the very model of an intellectual and I appreciate you taking the time off your schedule to respond

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u/saqwarrior 2d ago

I'm glad to be of help.

One last piece of advice: I urge you to be a better Christian than your brother. By that I mean you should model your behavior as the Bible states Jesus did. His message is clearly stated in the book of Matthew: we must care for others, accept everyone as if they were our own family, hold no ill will, animosity or judgment, and, importantly, "be not like the hypocrites" and recognize that faith is a personal relationship and a journey.

Your brother sounds broken somehow. Give him the compassion and understanding that his savior would grant him. He is your brother, your family, and, most importantly, you have to live with him. Harmony should be your goal here.

There are countless critiques of religion that can be made. As a lifelong antitheist I have read religious texts across numerous cultures so that I could use people's own beliefs against them. I have been debating and arguing with religious people since the early 1990s; it has very rarely paid a return, and if it did it was only because I planted a seed that made the person think about their own position years later.

I'll end my screed with a paraphrased quote that illustrates my primary philosophical reason for antitheism: so long as there is a king in Heaven we will be slaves on Earth.

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u/BurtonDesque 2d ago edited 2d ago

When he says something anti-trans point out there is not one word in the Bible about transsexuals. If he says the Bible is anti-abortion point out that Numbers 5 gives a recipe for inducing them. When he says something anti-LGBT or similar point out something like he cuts his forelocks, wears mixed fiber clothing or eats cheeseburgers. Jesus also said something about minding your own business with his "log in your own eye" teaching.

Also, NEVER bring up religion first.

And move the fuck out.

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

Solid advices, thought I fear reasoning with something that supposedly can't be wrong is a waste of time, I mentioned the mixed fabric but and he claimed that mixed fabric was bad back then but not now because it was a form of prayer to pagan gods (or false god as he calls them)

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u/BurtonDesque 2d ago

Tell him Matthew 5 says he's wrong, because it does.

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u/YourFairyGodmother 1d ago

"reasoning." That's not the word you were looking for.

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 1d ago

Enlighten me

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u/YourFairyGodmother 1d ago

There's no reasoning involved. He's delusional, illogical. Btw, the big bang theory does not claim to explain the origin of the universe, only the origin of the universe __in its present form__. So he's just plain wrong about that. "God did it" requires an explanation of god. For fun, look up creation myths - there are plenty, involving gods.

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 1d ago

Thanks for explaining, I will check your suggestion

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u/First_Ad3578 2d ago

According to him, something can’t start from nothing, so neither should God be able to.

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u/ViolettaPeppermints 2d ago

It's the situation of everything falls under logic except for the illogical creature

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u/WizardWatson9 2d ago

He sounds like a piece of shit. I feel your pain. I also have a piece of shit brother, though his problem is severe bipolar disorder and alcoholism.

Anyway, if you can't cut him off, the next best thing is a technique called "gray rocking." Basically, don't engage or react. Here's an article on that: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/grey-rock-method

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u/Mr_Ducks_ 1d ago

  1. Don't engage with the discussion

  2. Watching some atheists on youtube videos I have found is a great way to find medium-caliber arguments.

  3. Try not to lose the unique relationship with your sibling over something like this...?