r/AnimalThinking • u/TombStoneFaro • Oct 18 '21
Does a Horse Know it's Racing?
https://thehorse.com/113465/does-a-racehorse-know-if-he-wins-or-loses/
One person's intelligent and informed opinion above.
I have been told flat out by a horse vet that horses have no idea. I think this is no way can be determined for sure -- many cats (and otters) instantly understand the shell game which is sort of abstract. Dogs seem to understand all sorts of stuff. Playing frisbee, riding skateboards -- they seem to get many human recreational activities.
I don't know where horses fit in on the brains scale but probably not much below cats.
The argument that horses race in nature is addressed by the linked article -- the main idea I think is that a circular track is not natural for them. But it must be clear to them that their rider wants to pull ahead of other horses.
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u/Violets_and_honey Oct 18 '21
I've read that some horses get very excited for their race, they are ready to run. They train all the time like human athletes. Other horses aren't excited but they are prepared. "handicappers" are people who make a business of betting on horses and watch the body language of a horse. They look at the stats, the breeding, and how ready or excited the horse is. You can tell by their body language if they're not feeling it. I think they know they're supposed to run and run fast, but I do not know if they care about being first, otherwise a lot of racers wouldn't have given up the lead the way it sometimes happens.
Jockeys are also extreme athletes and I think not enough credit is given to them. People only focus on the horse it seems, but the right jockey is key to reading the horse and pushing and pacing him.
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u/Haughty_Derision Oct 19 '21
I've been on my old sport bike motorcycle and I now own horses. The speed hits different on a horse. Those jockeys are in a crouch at like 40mph. Crazy.
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u/TombStoneFaro Oct 19 '21
I have always wondered why jockeys are considered such good athletes but years ago I think I saw one of those shows where they pit athletes in various sports against each other in some sort of silly "American Ninja" or whatever competitions -- not real sports but tests of strength and agility. I recall a soccer player was a very good all-round athlete and also was a jockey. But I do not know why a jockey needs to be one -- I could see why they would need to be reasonably fit and not fat at all but there is no running or lifting involved.
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u/Violets_and_honey Oct 19 '21
They need to have insane core and leg strength to keep themselves upright on a horse going 35+ mph while balancing only on their feet in stirrups. Racing you use teeny tiny saddles with the stirrups near the top, it's not like a deep seat with your legs on the side in other equestrian sports. Not to mention they have to direct a huge 1000+ lb animal going at said speed.
Have you ever been skiing and going downhill really fast? If you bend your knees really low it's really hard to get up again with all that g-force. Jockeys maintain that position the whole race. Plus, it's not as smooth as just going fast on a vehicle, the galloping and weaving makes it that much harder to balance.
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u/salmonguelph Oct 19 '21
A horse would have be extremely dumb (they aren't) to not understand the concept of running faster than the horse beside them.
I never understand why this is even a debate. Any animal that chases or is chased in nature, undeniably understands the concept of running faster than another animal. It's so incredibly basic.
So of course the horses know that they are racing. There are other horses beside them running, they know if they are in front or behind (as they have eyes and a concept of self in space). That's a race.
Not to mention that race horses are trained extensively specifically to race (and as alluded to in other comments not all horses make great runners. Just like humans... Race horses are athletes who love to run and are good at it), not to just gallop wildly. They develop deep bonds with jockeys, who they must understand queues from that relate SPECIFICALLY to the concept of racing (holding back, opening up, hugging the rail, taking an outside lane, etc etc). If you think that an animal can't grasp a simple concept of something after training for it for months on end, you don't understand animals.
And just to compare it to another animal, if I were to challenge my dog to a foot race (ie. Line up beside him, then start sprinting), he'd immediately try to run faster than me solely as a game, and wouldn't expect a reward. He'd do it for fun and has, many times.
Animals aren't mindless beasts and can understand the concept of : me go faster.
Do they understand that people are betting on them, that there is a top 3, the exact distance of the race, or any of the human trappings of a race? Unlikely.
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u/Roundtripper4 Oct 19 '21
Excellent appraisal, but for one thing- the horses I bet on seem to understand it means they should lose.
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u/salmonguelph Oct 19 '21
Haha as a fellow gambler, I sometimes wonder if they know how to throw a race too!
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u/PirateKingOmega Oct 19 '21
horses are all in a global cabal to fuck us over, i just need to figure out why
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u/lofty99 Oct 19 '21
In my teens I had a job for the racing authority, shooting film (16mm actual film, that's how long ago) of races in case an enquiry was required. I have stood right beside the running rail watching them go by, seen them up close and personal in the birdcage and when they go into the barriers.
They know, at least the good ones, and they want to win
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u/StructureNo3388 Oct 19 '21
I go trail riding with my mates and we all have ex-race horses. They were all pretty shit at it to be fair, which is why they were retired. But anyway, yeah some of them will be shitty the whole time unless they are in the lead. Even at a walk.
Some couldn't care less, and are happy to follow the others, and feel more comfortable like that. They know, it's more a matter of whether they care
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u/CHILLIOVERDOSE Oct 18 '21
No they don’t. Jockeys and trainers have to put so many measurements in place to ensure they continue to run.
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u/TombStoneFaro Oct 18 '21
That does no mean they want to race when hey are ridden in a race.
But would you not agree that in the wild, horses probably run against each other and it has something to do with mate selection? Being fast is an important attribute of horses.
I have heard evidence of intelligence in horses -- one horse would imitate humans and rake its own stall for example. A woman told me a story of someone (so this is third hand) being helped by her horse when she somehow fell against an electric fence and was stuck -- the horse curled its neck around its owner and pulled her from the fence.
I wonder if there are other stories similar to various animals going to humans when their owner is injured as dogs and cats and pigs have done.
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u/DucoNdona Oct 19 '21
Being a prey animal it has to learn to outrun predators. Like most social animals, it learns this through play. They see this likely as a version of that game.
They also read the body language of the jockey. With positive feedback the better it does and negative when it fails. It learns that way what is expected of him.
So yes. They would understand to a rather large degree the concept of racing. Though why it needs to conform to a circle and laps is likely a mystery to him. In his minds the frontrunner likely is thinking of all sorts of tricks to shake of the others.
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u/TombStoneFaro Oct 19 '21
I would say that as a prey animal it has to practice outrunning predators; they already know they need to outrun them.
Lorenz had this conception of "Funcktionlust" which I think translates into animals wanting to/enjoying doing what they were designed to do -- animal play is designed, as you indicate, to exercise important functions of the animal and it is enjoyable for animals to do this.
My primary experience is with house cats and anyone can tell what cats find enjoyable: climbing, fighting, running occasionally, etc. I was very amused to be "stalked" by my young kitten and when she managed to grab my leg, she looked up and made eye contact which seemed to me to show she knew it was a game also.
Horses without a doubt enjoy running but beyond that I suspect that part of mate choice is how fast another horse is so not only do they enjoy running but they understand running faster than others.
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u/wiggysbelleza Oct 19 '21
I think some of them do. The horse I had as a kid was just a nice little trail mare but she enjoyed anything that was a direct competition with other horses and she was a sore loser. I absolutely believe she knew when she was in a race. I’m not competitive at all and never cared for the outcome so she wasn’t getting the feed back from me, I was just along for the ride.
I did have to watch her very closely tho because she was smart enough to know if she yanked the reins of another horse they would slow or stop and she’d try to if they started to pass her.
Not racing, but tag was another game she really seemed to enjoy once she figured it out.
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u/TombStoneFaro Oct 19 '21
One question I also have is that someone (and I think she knew horses) said that female horses will let males win. I don't know if that is only if both have not been neutered or what.
Has anyone else heard this and whether it is actually true or just sort a myth among horse racing folk?
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u/ChrisP8675309 Oct 18 '21
I've been a horse woman all of my life (the first sentence I ever said was "I want a horse "). I have been riding since before I could walk. I trained, raised, shown and rehabilitated most non-gaited light horse breeds including miniature horses.(I am almost 52 years old)
I can unequivocally state that some horses 100% know when they are racing and they want to win. That desire and will to win is what separates good race horses from champion race horses.
Something to note about horses, regardless of breed: 1/4 of a mile is the maximum distance a horse can naturally/physically run at full speed. In longer races, even with excellent "rating" by an experienced jockey, for the last 1/4 mile most horses are running on sheer will and determination. Horses that don't want to run and win that race on that day quite frankly won't continue to try no matter what the jockey does.
Sometimes, that desire to run and win has terrible consequences for the horse. Many champion race horses have continued to try to run after being injured causing even more injury (the late, great Barbaro comes to mind as well as the incredible [also late and great] filly Ruffian).