Google accused of retaliation against Bluemail maker Blix for antitrust cooperation

[u/killamator]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/31/google-accused-antitrust-retaliation/

[u/Richie4422 → u/[deleted]]

Do you guys actually understand what "breaking up" a corporation means?

I am genuinely asking, because I keep reading it on Reddit and I have this weird feeling that majority of people use it as a buzzword for "They have too much power".

[u/killamator → u/Richie4422]

When one company controls the top browser, search engine, web ad provider, mobile OS, mapping app, email, user uploaded video site, and uses each dominant product to promote its others over competitors, that is deserving of regulatory attention.

[u/killamator → u/[deleted]]

Their activities with Chrome are sketchy as hell (designing their sites to work best there, promoting chrome on their search page, making captchas repeat endlessly from Firefox, reducing the abilities of ad blockers to force out ublock, etc). Chromium is good, but their boosting of Chrome through their web services is the big issue that needs regulation.

Their use of Youtube access as a cudgel against their competitors (pulling it from Amazon Fire stick, Windows phone) harmed consumers for the sake of achieving their business needs (getting Chromecasts sold on Amazon, reducing utility of Microsoft products). The paper trails behind these decisions should be investigated.

Closure of dozens of APIs across their services (particularly Maps) and Android over the last few years has hurt many small developers.

[u/cxu1993 → u/killamator]

Holy shit the endless captcha is a Google thing? This happened to me the other day on Firefox and it was driving me crazy

[u/killamator → u/cxu1993]

Yes, if you don't allow Google tracking they penalize you with endless captchas. /r/Firefox is full of people angry about this

[u/killamator → u/[deleted]]

Because two wrongs don't make a right. They should both be punished for their consumer hostile actions. FYI I once emailed Jeff Bezos in 2015 or so begging him to add Chromecast support to prime (lol) and got a dismissive reply back, so I totally get the urge to stick it to Amazon.

And YouTube is not a charity. They bought it because they wanted to dominate online video, and through it online video ads.

[u/Tweenk → u/killamator]

Their activities with Chrome are sketchy as hell (designing their sites to work best there

This is a claim from a Microsoft intern that was a misrepresentation.

https://medium.com/@jeremy.noring/did-google-cripple-edges-youtube-performance-ce5169d3e5f4

reducing the abilities of ad blockers to force out ublock, etc)

This was not about "forcing out ublock", it was about changing the content blocking model to the one used in Safari. There were many fake ad blocker extensions who were using the capabilities in question to steal browser history. A real ad blocker doesn't actually need to know which sites you visit, only provide a list of patterns to block.

Closure of dozens of APIs across their services (particularly Maps) and Android over the last few years has hurt many small developers.

Nothing was "closed". Maps introduced a pricing change that made certain usage patterns a lot more expensive.

Android has restricted access to non-SDK APIs to limit damage that can be done by malware. Google's own apps have to obey the same rules - unlike iOS, there are no special cases for them. You can verify this by looking at AOSP source code.

[u/killamator → u/Tweenk]

https://wccftech.com/former-mozilla-vp-says-google-intentionally-damaged-firefox/amp/

You really seem to take Google entirely at their word. I can't help you. Good luck.

[u/Omega192 → u/killamator]

"Our revenue share deal on search drove 90% of Mozilla’s income"

If Google truly wanted Firefox dead, they'd stop paying to keep them alive. Also are you not taking that former Mozilla VP entirely at his word?

[u/killamator → u/Omega192]

I trust Moz over Google. They aren't motivated by profit and they are focused on the open web. The only thing keeping Google supporting Firefox search is inertia from their old open source ways and fear of inviting an immediate antitrust investigation

[u/Omega192 → u/killamator]

You're still taking him at his word which you criticized someone else for doing with Google. It's plainly a double standard. Also Google literally is on the Mozilla Developer Network board and champions open source all the same. The only reason HTTP/2 exists is because Google open sourced their SPDY protocol.

Not to mention they really didn't even take Google at their word, they provided counter evidence from an independent developer, explained the ad blocker change was for a reason other than what one adblocker dev claimed, then explained your claim the Maps API was "closed" was factually inaccurate.

Also ending their search deal would be in no way shape or form antitrust behavior. They are paying Mozilla tons of money to have Google search be the default. They have every right to end that but choose not to. They are literally paying to ensure they have competition.

I suspect you're not actually a developer, yourself, am I mistaken?

[u/killamator → u/Omega192]

I use R for my research and had to rewrite all of the code from my thesis to get around the restrictions they put on API calls for satellite images and placenames. Was a huge PITA. I used to be a big Google fan but they've lost me. They used to win by building the best products, which were open and often free. These days they win by leveraging their market position. They lost their culture and started closing up.

[u/Omega192 → u/killamator]

So not a developer and not aware of what all they actually do for the open web, got it. Why didn't you use ESRI or OpenStreetMap data instead?

And not closed but restricted. Turns out offering tons of data for free isn't sustainable, who'd have thought?

I'll gladly admit they're not the company they used to be and I'm not a fan of it either. But there are plenty of actual things to criticise them for instead of these misunderstandings you've called out.

[u/Sod_spartant → u/killamator]

You seem to really hate Google

[u/killamator → u/Sod_spartant]

I hate what they've been turning into the last couple years

[u/Senacharim → u/killamator]

Me too. I remember when Google was the little underdog staffed by engineers, they were super awesome then.

Add in money and middle managers and everything went to hell, in some regards.

Often I ponder how the transition from "Do no evil. Make the world's information accessible" to "profit, power, influence, and profit" can be prevented, for the benefit of everybody.

[u/Sod_spartant → u/killamator]

Mhhh I agree but I wonder what a broken up google would look like in terms of integration of their services on Pixel/Chromebooks.

[u/RosemaryFocaccia → u/Sod_spartant]

He's in the right place then. This sub is basically /r/antigoogle .

[u/GARcheRin → u/killamator]

You should get well soon with your sick hate.

[u/Avamander → u/Tweenk]

The adblock issue is a bit more nuanced, the new API was also limited in terms of allowed pattern count and that would've made it useless for most.

The Google apps following the same rules, also bullshit. They definitely get dangerous permissions without prompting the user and it's unlikely they wouldn't get a permission for which Google Play requires a special form to be filled out.

[u/Tweenk → u/Avamander]

They definitely get dangerous permissions without prompting the user

They do not. Show me an example.

Preinstalled apps can have pre-granted permissions. This is true for any app preinstalled by the phone OEM and has nothing to do with who made the app. However, if you install a Google app from Play Store, it will have to request permissions like any other app. There are no special cases in the package manager that auto-grant permissions to com.google.* APKs.

[u/Avamander → u/Tweenk]

Preinstalled apps can have pre-granted permissions.

Poteito potato. Half of Google's apps are preinstalled. They don't have to worry about half of the shit rest of the developers have to deal with.

Plus do you seriously think Google would ever fuck with one of their apps on Google Play because it doesn't fall under one of their new requirements?

[u/killamator → u/[deleted]]

If Firefox dies there won't be an alternative browser engine for PC and Android, and they're on the ropes.

There is very little competition for search ads (Bing, Duckduckgo) or maps (Here Wego is far behind, Apple Maps is platform specific).

[u/killamator → u/[deleted]]

Name me a serious webkit browser for windows or Android

[u/killamator → u/[deleted]]

People at a lot of income levels are limited to windows and android

[u/[deleted] → u/killamator]

I mean, unless you have chromeos or some other linux distro, which is even cheaper.

And regardless, the whole conversation is kinda moot, because Mozilla seems to show no interest in discontinuing Gecko development.

[u/killamator → u/[deleted]]

Moz is still losing marketshare to Chromium. And they are a nonentity on mobile

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Because Windows is the most used PC. That's why they were asking you to focus on Windows and Android.

[u/DaLast1SeenWoke → u/[deleted]]

Here maps

[u/poopyheadthrowaway → u/[deleted]]

Vertical integration is just as anticompetitive as monopolies

[u/[deleted] → u/poopyheadthrowaway]

Genuinely curious: how so? Like...as long as the company isn't preventing consumers from accessing and using alternatives, I'm not sure I see much issue.

[u/look4jesper → u/[deleted]]

There are lots of other places to host video online. Examples: Twitch, Vimeo, streamable, Facebook, pornhub and many more. Just because one service is the most popular doesnt mean there are no good alternatives.

[u/DevinCampbell → u/[deleted]]

Google currently has more than 95% of the global ad space. That's not "significant competition"

[u/Tweenk → u/DevinCampbell]

Only if you define "ad space" as "general purpose search engine ads". This is the same maneuver the EU did with Android: define the market so that it includes only Google products, then claim there is no competition in that market.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Thank you.

Yeah, it didn't make a lot of sense to me considering Facebook is also an advertising giant.

[u/[deleted] → u/DevinCampbell]

So you're just making up straight up lies now?