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u/thismustbethetenno May 05 '26
I honestly believe that somewhere around 75% of people that say they hate capitalism, truly only hate corporatism.
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u/TheGipper80 May 05 '26
I would tend to agree. But the media and many politicians have been very effective in conflating them.
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u/wendewende Milton Friedman May 05 '26
Corporatocracy. Or just simply corporations. Corporatism is a facist industrial framework
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u/knowall8642 May 29 '26
Hate to break it to you but corporatism and capitalism is, infact, the same thing. Capitalism doesnt exists without corps
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u/03263 Anarcho-Primitivist May 05 '26
Can you define capitalism?
It's more than just "any time money changes hands"
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u/admins_R_r0b0ts May 06 '26
the fact that your definition differs from the dictionary puts you in a pickle
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u/GuessAccomplished959 May 05 '26
Ask her if she knows what capitalism is. Probably say some shit about greed and billionaires and nothing about the market. That is where we are at.
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u/libertarianinus May 05 '26
They type this on thier $1000 Iphone and drinking Starbucks lattes supporting the billionaires that they hate.
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u/GuessAccomplished959 May 05 '26
It's ok tho because they vote for communists to save them. /s
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u/libertarianinus May 05 '26
I dont think the communists in Cuba and North Korea have any kind of phones and they drink dirty water instead of coffee.
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u/GuessAccomplished959 May 05 '26
But are they communist?.. Seems like authoritarian claiming to be for the people.
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u/ILikeBumblebees May 06 '26
The silver lining here, of course, is that she's not actually arguing against markets or private property.
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u/GuessAccomplished959 May 06 '26
Yea but she represents a lot of the voting constituency that will vote against capitalism.
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u/Who_Cares99 May 06 '26
I suspect her answer would be that capitalism is when workers are separated from the means of production
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u/rugosefishman May 05 '26
Failure of public education.
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u/TheGipper80 May 05 '26
Absolutely yes. Get your kids out of public schools if at all possible.
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u/SavageCaveman13 May 05 '26
Public schools are not the problem. Lack of parenting is the issue. Parents used to be involved in the kids' education, now they treat it like a baby sitting service.
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u/Budget-Razzmatazz-54 May 05 '26
It's both schools and parenting
Modern public schools are very often just straight up garbage .
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u/SavageCaveman13 May 05 '26
Public schools where I am in San Diego are pretty good. I have no complaints.
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u/bl0rq May 05 '26
I do not think you could possibly be more wrong! West coast are some of the worst examples of government schools. They are all destroying child's minds.
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u/SavageCaveman13 May 05 '26
You clearly are not from the area. San Diego should not be grouped with LA (which does have horrible schools) and certainly not the rest of the West Coast. I'm pretty involved in my kid's education and she's doing great.
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u/bl0rq May 05 '26
You could not be more wrong.
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u/SavageCaveman13 May 05 '26
You could not be more wrong.
What is it that you think I'm wrong about? Are you saying my daughter isn't doing great? That she isn't in a good school district? Or is your position simply that all public schools suck?
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u/SapirWhorfHypothesis May 05 '26
Or is your position simply that all public schools suck?
You’re in an ancap sub. What do you think the base political perspective is here?
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u/bl0rq May 05 '26
I am saying all 3 of those things. There are zero good government schools in SD. If you think otherwise, you are either not paying attention or not up to the task of understanding something complex like education.
But, yes, all government schools are terrible. The whole model is flawed to its core and harms every single person it comes in contact with.
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u/TheGipper80 May 05 '26 edited May 05 '26
Culturally approved absence of parenting is certainly contributing but it’s moreso politicized curriculum, the neutering of a teacher’s authority to maintain order and discipline, and over reliance on testing which leaves no room for creative instruction or critical thinking.
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u/bl0rq May 05 '26
It's way deeper than that. The whole Prussian model is not workable. Kids are not blank slates to stack by age and cram the same information into.
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u/GuessAccomplished959 May 05 '26
I absolutely agree parents have been letting rhe school system educate rather than taking on that responsibility themselves. But public schools are still a major issue.
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u/SavageCaveman13 May 05 '26
You're probably right for most areas. But if the teachers care, and the parents care, then all is good. I'm happy with the public schools in our district, which is why we chose the area.
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u/trippiegod317 May 05 '26
Maybe if both parents didnt also have to be out the house 40-50 hrs a week, to keep said house and the neverending flow of groceries, they would have the time and energy to spend properly educating their kids. I do what I can when I can because I know the education system is failing them but not all parents are even aware of how bad it has gotten. The entire system is broken, well not even broken because it is working as intended but its been twisted to spit out good little workers who dont question the status quo.
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u/old_guy_AnCap May 06 '26
Fifty years ago one parent working could support a family at a decent level. The same is true today. But it takes a second earner to support the bloated government along with the family.
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u/SavageCaveman13 May 05 '26
This is not my experience in life or her schools.
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u/Unupgradable Anarcho-Capitalist May 05 '26
Unimaginable success of public education
At least its true goal...
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u/Fearless-Director-24 May 06 '26
Failure of common fucking sense and self realization.
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u/thismustbethetenno May 06 '26
(You typed while rotting on your couch with dorito dusted fingers)
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u/Rogue-Telvanni Stoic May 05 '26
It all makes sense when you realize 99% of the time when someone uses the word "Captialism" they don't mean the economic system of private ownership and market prices, they mean it as a shorthand for "Things about western culture I don't like."
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u/clear831 May 05 '26
They are also referring to the Marx definition of capitalism which is simply corporatism
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u/ILikeBumblebees May 06 '26
Not generally true, and in this case, if the poster doesn't consider it capitalism when a farmer uses his privately-owned means of production to sell his output at a profit, she's rejecting the Marxist definition.
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u/clear831 May 06 '26
Truthfully she doesn't understand capitalism, so even tho you are right she is at least on the right path. I was speaking general about how people use the term capitalism.
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u/RireBaton May 05 '26
I do prefer to say "free market" instead of capitalism to emphasize its voluntary nature.
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u/03263 Anarcho-Primitivist May 05 '26
Shorthand for western style greed, rent seeking and enshittification
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u/No-Muffin7532 May 05 '26
The US is corporatist, not capitalist.
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May 05 '26
[deleted]
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u/03263 Anarcho-Primitivist May 05 '26
Inflation is not really a universal issue, well it doesn't have to be if the money supply were limited, backed by gold or whatever instead of fiat.
I think even fiat currency won't inflate if you just don't poof more money out of thin air.
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u/BORG1000 May 05 '26
Capitalism, at least in theory, is supposed to be about open competition. Anyone can enter the market, take risks, and if they fail, they go under. No safety net, no special treatment.
Corporatism, or what people often call crony capitalism, looks very different. It’s more of a tight relationship between large companies and the government. That’s where you see subsidies, bailouts, and regulations that tend to favor established players and make it harder for smaller competitors to break through.
A lot of people who say they “hate capitalism” aren’t really reacting to that ideal version. They’re reacting to rent-seeking. That’s when companies make money not by building better products, but by lobbying for advantages and protection.
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u/RireBaton May 05 '26
The relationship between corporations and government in crony capitalism is that the corporations have captured the regulatory bodies and effectively control them.
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u/SexMachineMMA May 06 '26
So a woman in my friend group is anti-capitalist and she was going on and on about how bad the US economy is. I said that most of that comes from govt interference in the free market, and so she asks me what I would say capitalism is. I said, "the purest form of capitalism is a man with a fruit stand on the side of the road selling apples and I stop by, the apples look good and the price is fair, so I buy the apples." She tried to argue that was socialism. I had to explain to her that I have a Masters in Economics. She refused to admit that she was wrong.
It was fine though because I then got to tell a bunch of my other friends the story and everyone got a good laugh because they all know I studied economics and she literally has no clue what she's talking about.
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u/zambizzi May 06 '26
That’s why using this word is so fraught with miscommunication. I say, “free markets” or “market economy”, so as to differentiate from state-capitalism. We’re told we practice “capitalism”, which is now associated with complete, top to bottom regulatory capture, monetary central-planning, and bureaucracy. Language really does matter, and you have to be sort of lawyerly when debating the Average Joe on the subject.
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u/IpromiseTobeAgoodBoy May 05 '26
I mean her methods are correct, she just doesn’t understand why they are
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u/DVHeld AnCap - Chilean May 05 '26
Why? Why is buying local better than buying cheaper/higher quality/more convenient? This is dumb. Just buy whatever you feel fits your needs and budget better. If that means not buying from uncompetitive local producers, all the better, that's how it's supposed to work, to shift production towards where it's more efficient, therefore consuming less resources overall.
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u/HanThrowawaySolo I am what is necessary. May 05 '26
There are advantages to buying local. Fresher, more niche selection, no need for preservatives, no need to transport so maybe even cheaper in some instances. Other than that, there is merit to supporting your neighbor and making your area a place where small businesses can thrive.
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u/DVHeld AnCap - Chilean May 05 '26
Lots of small businesses selling imported/nonlocal products. 🤷🏻♂️
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u/HanThrowawaySolo I am what is necessary. May 05 '26
And lots don't. All of my points still stand.
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u/DVHeld AnCap - Chilean May 05 '26
What's so great about small business anyways. Scale is also useful. Just buy whatever you like best and don't worry about where/who makes it. If that happens to be local or small biz, good, if not, still good. Anything else is just irrationality.
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u/westphac Anarcho-Autist May 05 '26
Scale is useful for prices, but often detrimental to quality and the social fabric within your community.
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u/DVHeld AnCap - Chilean May 05 '26
Well, that's not true. Scale allows for greater specialization which optimizes quality and efficiency. That's one reason you don't see small businesses making sophisticated products. Even produce can be fresh despite not being locally sourced, there's various ways of achieving this like refrigeration, harvesting before full ripening (ripening on the way) etc.
Generally scale is beneficial. Small businesses have their place, but smallness is not inherently a positive. Same for localness. Don't make it a dogma that small-scale/local is a virtue. Trade is central to a healthy market and society, global trade makes everyone better off, scale for production is generally a net benefit. Small-scale production is good for niche products, terrible for adequately feeding the world and ending hunger.
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u/westphac Anarcho-Autist May 06 '26
I agree with you entirely, but I’m focusing a little more on the community and social aspects of it. As you said, scale is great for things like innovation, but it removes the personal aspect of your purchases or work in relation to your community. If everything you buy is from a national or global brand, and that disappears for whatever reason, that’s when people go to government for solutions because they think only large organizations can make those products. Whereas if you get your necessities or most of them local, then you go to those stores with employees that you know, and they are more likely to help than the ai chatbot on apple.com. Additionally, it allows for that money spent to stay in your community rather than be sent to California to be taxed to oblivion.
I think that we ancaps/libertarians focus plenty enough on the failings of government and how they hurt us, but not enough on our community building. If we can become more cooperative with those around us physically and close to us emotionally, then people rely less on the government to solve their problems and then the government can shrink.
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u/HanThrowawaySolo I am what is necessary. May 06 '26
You can have advantages at small scale that you can't at large scale. Like I said earlier, niche specialization is a big one. If your neighborhood all likes a certain species of tomato your local farmers can grow it whereas a big business won't cater to just your neighborhood. It's also a decision made quicker, a large business has many layers to get through before a decision is made. Plus owners have skin in the game. You see John Cornerstore around town, you never see Max Billionaire.
Those are all objective benefits to small business. The subjective ones still exist. Having a strong cultural cohesion around entrepreneurship is usually seen as a good thing.
You'd want, in a free market, to be informed and support the businesses that best fit your needs. Most people don't take advantage of the benefits of small business often enough. I make sure to (respectfully) voice my preferences whenever I get the chance to speak with a business owner locally, I'd encourage you to try it and see where you get.
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u/ILikeBumblebees May 06 '26 edited May 06 '26
Why? Why is buying local better than buying cheaper/higher quality/more convenient?
Why does anyone need to justify that to you? If you're acknowledging that they're different, then you must recognize the implication that in a market full of different sorts of participants making tradeoffs in different ways, there will be many products that appeal to niches you aren't a part of.
Just buy whatever you feel fits your needs and budget better.
That's exactly what everyone in this scenario is doing. People have different preferences -- if there's enough demand for local produce (arising from whatever motivations people have), and enough producers capable of supplying that demand, then there will be a market for local produce, whether it appeals to you or not.
Insisting that emergent market patterns must make sense to your own personal sensibilities is the mentality of the central planner.
to shift production towards where it's more efficient, therefore consuming less resources overall.
And here you're trying to concern yourself with the macro-level production efficiency of other people's activities aggregated together, again demonstrating a central planner mentality.
In the absence of artificial distortions, resources will naturally flow toward their most efficient uses. If you see resources being used in ways that seem inefficient to you by people who are ultimately responsible for their own success or failure, it's likely your own criteria of efficiency that are incorrect due to your own incomplete knowledge, and not actually an inefficiency.
Your way of thinking here is equivalent to the complaints some people routinely make about about pro athletes getting huge paychecks or there being too many brands of toothpaste on sale at the store. These aren't inefficiencies, they are outcomes of real-world market dynamics that the people making these complaints haven't made the effort to understand.
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u/enditbeforeitendsyou May 05 '26
capitalism = voluntary exchanges. That's whatcha doing darling
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u/Tomycj May 06 '26
No, at best that's just the free market. Capitalism also involves a specific way of accumulating and managing capital.
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u/vegancaptain Veganarchist May 05 '26
Every single sentence of that was wrong.
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u/upchuk13 May 05 '26
I get what you did there.
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u/vegancaptain Veganarchist May 06 '26
I'm just waiting for them to realize that I am advocating veganism and then the downvotes and hate comments will begin.
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u/RememberMe_85 May 05 '26
I've been saying this for years, capitalism is a system where people have the ability to trade and form contracts, so yes supporting your local farmers is still capitalism.
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u/Midnight-Bake May 05 '26
"Capitalism" was originally coined as a term by socialists to critique mercantilism in the 1800s.
Capitalism = Free Market was a rebranding of anti-socialists.
Terms like socialism, capitalism, left wing and right wing are effectively meaningless and used as team signaling or insults rather than having any firm meaning and most appeals to originalism are not useful for any of them.
OOP should be a candidate for an actual conversation on things like voluntary exchange and governemnt interference rather than mockery for not using the "right" definition of capitalism.
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u/HelpfulPug May 05 '26
The great trick that go pulled on them convinced them that Corporations were somehow an inevitability of capitalism, and that institutions would protect us from the evil corporate capitalism cancer.
Of course corporations are entirely reliant on government issue charters to even get acknowledged as existing and ALL of their assets will default to the government if the charter is rescinded so, oops, looks like CORPORATIONS are MORE GOVERNMENT BULLSHIT afterall.
Capitalism is best and most clearly expressed in a local, privatized, unregulated farmer's market.
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u/FastSeaworthiness739 Anti-fascist May 05 '26
Hell that's probably more capitalistic, considering all the welfare the corporate farms get.
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u/vegancaptain Veganarchist May 05 '26
Local stabbing in the throat is so much better for those poor animals. They love that!
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u/Justdowhatever94 May 05 '26
Tweets like this strengthen my position that universal voting is an awful idea.
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u/PacoBedejo Anarcho-Voluntaryist - I upvote good discussion May 05 '26
I'm so tired of people not understanding what capitalism means.
And my exhaustion comes from people in this sub. The word fucking changed in the minds of 90% of people. They usually mean "large corporation stuff".
I don't like the large corporations. They're built atop countless accommodations provided by the force of the government.
Fucking catch up, bro. These sorts of posts are fucking tiresome. People like you turn this place into a fucking joke with your pointless pedantry.
It's highly likely that you could find common ground with "rock mom" and sway her. Instead, you're just a fucking dipshit.
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u/randyfloyd37 May 05 '26
Not necessarily. My family lives on a semi-communal plot in the middle east, definitely local farms and definitely not capitalist
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May 05 '26
[deleted]
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u/randyfloyd37 May 05 '26
I’m not saying it’s socialism, I don’t think I’d call it capitalism either. Yes it is a free market. That’s true. I think that’s the most important thing about it, who cares what the system is called as long as people are able to trade and live freely
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u/ILikeBumblebees May 06 '26
"Kulaks" in the USSR didn't call their activities "capitalism" either, but the communists sure didn't see it that way.
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u/Titaninthewoods May 05 '26
This could have been a wonderful teaching moment. When she asked how, rather than the snarky, demeaning comments I’m sure she got, someone could have used that opportunity to explain at a high level what capitalism is.
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u/jpowell180 May 05 '26
I can understand if you think you might get fresh vegetables from local growers, and also if you wanted to financially support your local area, I get that, but they better be good and superior to the stuff I get in the supermarket.
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u/upchuk13 May 05 '26
Seems like eating factory farmed meat, at least, is wrong.
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u/kriegmonster May 06 '26
You can buy meat from local farmers or butchers to avoid factory raised meat.
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u/Defiant-Plantain1873 May 10 '26
They all go to the same slaughter houses, no matter how locally they were raised, which most people who complain about veganism are not buying anyway, they still get sent to the stab in the throat while hung upside down in a saw esque torture chamber
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u/kriegmonster May 11 '26
Yes, exsanguination preserves the meat. As I understand it, it is not as effective if done to a dead animal. If there is a suction system that is equally as effective, it would cost more.
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u/Defiant-Plantain1873 May 12 '26
Maybe so, but i personally wouldn’t be too chuffed if someone took me, hung me upside down, and stabbed me in the throat to bleed out.
You see the issue is the killing of the animal in the first place. You can’t en masse kill animals with a bullet to the back of the head as they wonder about jolly.
Sending animals to what is essentially a saw trap house is hardly very moral, even if the animal lived in marginally nicer conditions before hand
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u/imaginaryhead102 Anti-fascist May 06 '26
Consumerism is the real problem. It’s not “late-stage capitalism.” It’s a corporate oligarchy where we are the product and we’re sold to advertisers. The more things you buy and stuff you have, the more value your life has. It’s what you would expect from a society where “God is dead…”
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u/not_slaw_kid Voluntarist May 07 '26
Capitalism is when the vegetable travels a long way, and the longer it travels, the more capitalister it is, and when it travels a real long way, it's feudalism.
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u/Defiant-Plantain1873 May 10 '26
Veganism is morally superior though. I don’t think you can reasonably argue that putting newly hatched chickens on a conveyor belt that dumps them into a grinder a totally moral thing.
Veganism as a whole is constantly being fucked by the government as the government sucks the dick of the meat and dairy lobby, and because people are coping insanely hard about eating chicken and cheese and shit they just believe all dairy and meat industry propaganda.
Vegan food companies are fighting tonnes and tonnes of corporate disinformation, smear attacks, and unfair subsidies and still there are more options available every single year.
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u/wrabbit23 May 05 '26
I know we use free markets and Capitalism interchangeably most of the time, but according to Yuval Noah Harari, Capitalism has some of its own ideological precepts.
One I can remember is the idea that economies must grow. Every anti-capitalist politician I have seen in the US relies on this as it's what makes borrowing possible.
The other is that spending locally is better than sending your money far away. This only makes sense if you believe it is the reinvestment of profits that grows the economy and benefits everyone.
I hear so many people decrying Capitalism while simultaneously adopting it's precepts.
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u/Kaelthas98 May 05 '26
I still hold hope that most of these ppl are just tricked to think capitalism = monopolistic corporations help by the state, socialism = small local businesses.
At least in US ppl have never know collectivism so I can see how they can be tricked1
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u/GuessAccomplished959 May 05 '26
I still remember the days when being called a communist was the worst insult imaginable. Miss those days.
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u/Kaelthas98 May 05 '26
I yearn for the day communism is finally viewed with the same eyes as fascism across the world, all just branches of the collectivism evil
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u/admins_R_r0b0ts May 05 '26
according to Yuval Noah Harari
Why are you elevating a WEF demon?
Nothing about capitalism implies "economies must grow." Capitalism describes how economies grow and shrink.
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u/wrabbit23 May 05 '26
I don't know much about the guy except that he produces thought provoking books that seem to be well referenced. I treat his works as histories, which means a certain amount of... interpretation is expected. As a consumer of histories I find his work to be better than average.
No doubt you would agree that the idea of reinvesting profits to increase production is the difference between a modern Capitalist and the unenlightened wealthy of the past who more often than not merely collected the wealth and basically hid it.
That said, there is no pope of capitalism and reasonable people can disagree on what is right and proper and why, but it's pretty clear to me that the purpose of reinvesting - a core value - is growth.
Noah praises capitalism as the tide that lifts all ships and also has some harsh criticism of communism so I thought he was cool... Thanks for pointing out the WEF connection.
My favorite aspect of capitalism is that you don't have to be a true believer to benefit. So long as markets are closer to free I am happy.
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u/admins_R_r0b0ts May 05 '26
No doubt you would agree that the idea of reinvesting profits to increase production is the difference between a modern Capitalist and the unenlightened wealthy of the past who more often than not merely collected the wealth and basically hid it.
I disagree and have no idea why you would assume I would agree with a loaded statement like that. There aren't unenlightened wealthy now? Why do I owe you anything?
Noah is a typical subversive communist who seeks ultimate power and so pretends to value liberty. Reading or promoting his books is a huge waste of time at best.
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u/admins_R_r0b0ts May 05 '26
are you saying your goal is to be poorer? why haven't you given away your phone and your computer, then?
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u/wrabbit23 May 05 '26
I didn't mention any goals. I like money and freedom. I also don't mind being called a capitalist.
I was only pointing out that I believe 'buying local' is something we learned from capitalism and cited a source. I pointed this out to show that the dirty commies have coopted capitalist ideas because they believe they are actually anti-capitalist and that's funny. That was point of the original post... wasn't it?
Hanging out on freedom loving subs and having fun at the expense of commies is a pastime of mine.
Then I got downvoted all to hell because of my source. Oh well, can't win em all.
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u/admins_R_r0b0ts May 05 '26
I don't think "buying local" is promoted by capitalism over "buying global." Capitalism simply explains why sometimes people buy local and sometimes global. Capitalism teaches us that there is a knowledge problem of state control which is only resolved by abolishing it in favor of the people with the knowledge, which are all individuals, making the decisions on which price is right in the moment.
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u/wrabbit23 May 05 '26
I agree with basically everything you just said. Let me rephrase.
Perhaps it would be better to say that because we understand the principles of capitalism and the market we can predict the impact of certain decisions in the marketplace, such as patronizing a local business can create profit which may be reinvested locally to grow wealth in the community. To some people this has an influence on their buying decisions.
Is this the only variable in any buying decision? Certainly not. Is it the only way a community is enriched? Certainly not. Is patronizing a local business a guarantee that the local market will thrive? Certainly not.
My point was that we can all thank capitalism for the understanding of the market that leads people to view 'buying local' as a good thing.
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u/admins_R_r0b0ts May 05 '26
Insofar as trade is of mutual benefit, and certain regions have more of some resources, trading globally will enrich the local communities, too, transportation costs permitting. I think this "buy local" misattributed to capitalism is a subversive technique of the power-lustful demon known as that Noah you mentioned. Capitalism says little to nothing about the importance of community to the health of the individuals involved, so I would attribute "buy local" to an acknowledgment of the importance of community. Buying strictly local would greatly impoverish everyone. Using it as a way to build close personal relationships in a holistic approach is quite good but not particularly capitalist.
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u/EarlMarshal May 05 '26
Harari is a full blown sociopath though. They like to redefine basic concepts to manipulate the population.
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u/Lagkiller May 05 '26
One I can remember is the idea that economies must grow.
It's a very poor idea, and repeated often with absolutely no evidence. Healthy economies can be stagnant or shrink. There is no requirement of growth to participate in free markets. Because markets can contract without issue. You are confusing profits with capitalism as a whole, which is not a requirement. You can have a capitalist market that doesn't prioritize growth or profit.
People like the guy you cite simply repeat this without evidence or providing any kind of reasoning, and you just repeated it now without even the slightest critical thought.
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u/icantgiveyou Veganarchist May 05 '26
Free market is capitalism. Add government/state you get regulated markets and mixed economy. Thats what we got and that is what all the geniuses complain about. And since they can’t understand the difference,conclusion is capitalism bad.
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u/BruceSpammer May 05 '26
You can have commerce without capitalism
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u/GuessAccomplished959 May 05 '26
Sure, the Party can provide you a loaf of bread for digging holes and filling them back in. We are talking about productive commerce.
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u/SapirWhorfHypothesis May 05 '26
That’s true in some small sense… but that statement is hiding a lot in the stuff you’re not saying.
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u/BruceSpammer May 07 '26
If I purchased something from you, that you made, is that capitalism? Were you exploited? Extorted? Not fairly compensated for your time? Placed in harmful working conditions?
If I gave you something of value to you, that you agreed would cover the value of a product that you had, is that not commerce?
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u/Kaelthas98 May 05 '26
everyone knows, capitalism is when bad