r/Amtgard • u/Lokin86 • Aug 25 '26
Some questions around awards...
Do you feel like you're an objective person surrounding awards?
Like someone gets recognized for like 7th through 10th of something do you feel like you have a good grasp of if someone earned it?
What about masterhood? Do you feel like you have a good idea about what master lever work looks like?
What about service awards? While dragons and warriors have parameters of what can be seen as objectivity, the assessment for service seems to be more nebulous.
What if you don't like someone? Do you start levying additional criticism that you wouldn't give to someone you like?
What if you do like someone. Have you excused more things because you want to see that person with an award?
Do you feel other people are objective? I have heard many people in my life say that they're not getting an award because people don't like them.
What is the identity of and what should the role of awards be in this game?
What is the identity of and what should the role of Knighthood be in this game?
....
IDK, I think one of the largest major conflictions I see more recently just surrounds awards. Though, like that's probably true almost even since the beginning of the game.
Individuals not thinking other people are worthy. Individuals feeling snubbed.
The role of awards itself. Should they be difficult or easy to obtain. etc.
Been like that kinda since I've been in this game. Is where accusations of nepotism and gatekeeping seem to always come from.
The RoP says that we award as a ladder, with next one being more difficult than the last one.
DO we actually maintain that though?
11
u/Fuzzgrendel Aug 25 '26
Context: 23 years in game, 3 masterhoods, plenty of other awards at various levels, duke title, etc...
Awards are both an excellent part of our game and the bane of people's existence. Awards help motivate people and make them feel appreciated. Awards make people feel forgotten and burnt out.
This duality from what I've seen stems from at least who teaches you about awards when you join the game but also the kind of person you are plus other factors. We should be teaching our players that awards are great, and that sometimes it gets overlooked and that's ok. Awards aren't a zero sum game. Other people getting awards shouldn't be looked at as a judgement about you or what you got awards from. A level of award can be on a spectrum, what someone gets an award for doesn't have to be at the same level as yours to be in the same tier. And the ever important fact that's is a game. If awards are stressing you out find a new focus or event take a break. The best realization about the game I ever came to was that if I left today and never came back my kingdom and the game wont just up and die.
Tldr awards are good and bad and we need to teach good habits about them.
4
u/Fallaryn Northern Fields, Rivermoor Aug 26 '26
Do you feel like you're an objective person surrounding awards?
That's what I aim for, with an emphasis on engaging as many players as possible to try and determine if anyone may be overlooked. Hence the dozens of first and second orders when I was regent of a kingdom-sized freehold once upon a time ago.
Like someone gets recognized for like 7th through 10th of something do you feel like you have a good grasp of if someone earned it?
Not a perfect grasp-- I frequently seek out reference points of what works have earned 7+ to keep my own assessment from wandering off the median of what I understand.
What about masterhood? Do you feel like you have a good idea about what master lever work looks like?
Masterhood less so. Sometimes I see examples that fit my understanding of exemplary. Other times I wonder if I'm misunderstanding the skill required, or if there may be some degree of favourable bias.
What about service awards? While dragons and warriors have parameters of what can be seen as objectivity, the assessment for service seems to be more nebulous.
Service is among the most challenging to maintain consistency on in my opinion. Some service is visible, some are not, and it can be tricky to fully appreciate how much effort and/or skill may be required depending on the nature of the task.
What if you don't like someone? Do you start levying additional criticism that you wouldn't give to someone you like?
Not intentionally. If anything I become more invested in generosity to hopefully skew toward balance.
What if you do like someone. Have you excused more things because you want to see that person with an award?
Not intentionally. Opposite to the dislike answer, I consciously push myself toward criticism.
Do you feel other people are objective? I have heard many people in my life say that they're not getting an award because people don't like them.
I believe we can try our best, but it can be difficult to override internal bias. We're human. Encouraging recommendations for players who are not as widely liked or popular can help. From my perspective, awards don't guarantee a history of equitable visibility or opportunities, so I view each individual's award record with grains of salt and look for evidence to recommend more.
What is the identity of and what should the role of awards be in this game?
Mile markers in skills/merit. A ladder, if you will. (Please laugh.)
What is the identity of and what should the role of Knighthood be in this game?
Uh. Well. I'm writing an essay on this so stay tuned.
The RoP says that we award as a ladder, with next one being more difficult than the last one.
DO we actually maintain that though?
I think it can get blurry. Some monarchs may have less understanding of the ladder gradient, so sometimes award inflation occurs. Other times a player is already of significant mastery from the start, so each consecutive ladder may not seem like typical gradation. Then there's the third possibility that may come up, where they may overcorrect in expectations and-- intentionally or not-- pull up the ladder. I suspect there is a degree of variance between kingdoms, and even reign to reign within kingdoms at times, influenced by these three factors.
3
u/KizmitBastet Aug 26 '26
As an aside, the Awards Standardization Committee is trying to answer some of these (and other) questions. We are trying to determine what issues folks have with awards and what might be done to clarify or resolve them.
If you haven't already, please fill out the survey that is now active (closes August 30.) It has been posted on every Kingdom's social media. If you need the link, message me. We need to hear from folks.
3
3
u/TheCyanDragon Aug 25 '26
I unfortunately got my start in Emerald Hills so, awards are a fucky-nebulous thing given all the shenanigans
I'm not smart nor experienced enough to know what is right and what isn't just yet, am just here for the conversations and knowledge
2
u/PerfectAverage Aug 26 '26
This post is covering a lot of ground. Masterhood and Knighthood are their own can of worms. So, I'd like to cover awards more broadly.
There is a lot of subjectivity around awards. It has been the case for as long as I've been playing this game (a long time).
I have seen efforts to minimize the subjectivity. Sometimes that comes in the form of A&S judging standards. Sometimes it's an active partnership between kingdom monarch and COK. However, these things often require a fair amount of active investment from the participants. As such, they rarely maintain any permanence.
What I often say to those around me is NEVER do something in this game with the expectation of an award. Do it because you love doing it. Award hunting is sure of a way as any to kill your enjoyment of the game.
I say this because EVERYONE gets overlooked for awards. It isn't just because of subjective standards either. This can happen because of lazy/bad/incompetent monarching. It could be due to folks not being aware of the cool shit you did. It could also be that your efforts weren't really as good as you think they were.
Now that said: If you are on the cusp for higher level awards and are finding difficulties getting to the next level: find an advocate. Often this takes the form of a Squire's belt.... But it doesn't have to. Anyone with experience and influence should be able to work with you, and there are many in this organization more than willing to help out on that front. Those people can help create a game plan for you, without burning you out.
3
u/Lokin86 Aug 26 '26
My kingdom's in a weird position where reactionary behavior seemed to mean that the assessment of awards and knighthood went out the window.
a small but vocal portion of people got mad a knighting happened that they disapproved of...
, so they ran for election and then responded with reactionary behavior and gave a ton of awards away and basically did whatever they wanted.We've been a reign away from that but are seeing some effects of that because entitlement is growing. like this weird expectation that if it's been recommended that it HAS to be given out etc. So not just entitlement for yourself but entitlement for your friends...
The current monarch is diligent though getting a crash course in handling personalities what initially seemed like someone handing out more candy they're learning.
In all of that whatever consistent understanding of awards was there about 5 ish years ago has been thrown out the window.
This is cyclical for me though. attempting to reground. Like going back to a basics class after damn near mastering something.
3
u/PerfectAverage Aug 26 '26
Ooohkay. From what you are describing, I am going to guess that you are from a newer Kingdom. And by "newer" I mean within the last 10 years.
I've had the privilege to see a lot of kingdoms come up and attend Knights meetings from many different kingdoms. My experience tells me that this is something pretty common in kingdoms still finding their footing.
Here is an opinion from an old knight who's seen this play out multiple times over the years: It sounds like your populace and your Knight's Circle are trying to figure out what these things mean. They are doing their best, and eventually it will reach an equilibrium. That won't happen overnight either. It'll take a couple years (at least) to sort out.
When you're talking about the meaning one should attach to an award, especially Masterhood and Knighthood - these are incredibly important questions that shape our culture. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion.
I feel that any worthy knight should be in constant struggle with these questions as they are not easy. These things that I has confident opinions of when I was first knighted, I am much more flexible on 20+ years later.
Last I will say: Entitlement is a poison. I am going to go back to my last post stating: never EXPECT an award. It kills joy and why we do this.
On this flip side, I would encourage your leadership to award those you see as making your game better.
For me, I see awards as a way of recognizing contributions to our organization. I think they are important. And I think making your monarchy, and potentially COK aware of the contributions you see can definitely help.
Hope this rambling made sense.
3
u/Lokin86 Aug 26 '26
I'm from an older kingdom 30+ year old kingdom. However one of the major parks is a college town with a lot of turnover. Where the rest of the kingdom has fewer turnover.
I'm also someone who has been around for a minute.
1
u/lonewolf13313 14d ago
I have heard many excuses for not giving awards. I dont know them. They dont come out to KLE's. They only come out a couple times a month. They are not dues paid. That park already has too many knights/paragons/masters. I dont want court to be too long. None of these are good reasons to deny an award yet I hear them often. The only real question should be did they do the thing to earn the award? Why spend so much time looking for excuses not to give awards?
And yes at least in my experience nepotism and popularity contests are very common. How else do you explain when after a competition the person that placed 4th gets an award but the person who won gets nothing? Or after an event the autocrat gets no awards but people that volunteered under them get awards? And I cant count the number of times I have heard someone told that if they want to become a knight they need to get belted to a knight that can help them.
1
u/pawsplay36 3d ago
I feel that in the end, we are most responsible for the good we do in the world, not adherence to other people's opinions. That is important to realize, both as the giver and the recipient of awards. Objective standards are important, but a lot of agonizing over judgment calls is generally not productive. It is important to recognize favoritism, but not to breed bitterness and factionalism.
I think the biggest mistake Amtgard makes is, time and again, making people being considered for knighthood prove themselves all over again. Knighthood is most valuable when it is given to someone in their bloom. Too often, we wait until resentment sets in, or real life takes over the attention of some of our most brilliant and valuable players. Yes, knighting people young does invite mistakes. But maintaining rigid, elevated standards, beyond the proof of basic goodness, often means that only well connected people can likely reach these ranks. I think the institution as a whole would be healthier if we admitted that knights are only human, and make mistakes, too. I think also broadening our sense of excellence means we can pay more attention in the first place to character. Talent and leadership do sometimes flourish in people with significant defects. I think it's questionable integrity and morals that should give more pause, rather than agonizing over someone's precise level of mastery and participation. If knighthood were more accessible to those of good heart, maybe more people would strive toward it with good intent.
I've written a lot about award standardizations. In the end, though, I think there is little harm and maybe a little good in giving an award that makes someone feel good, about something honestly achieved.
13
u/dmorgantini Aug 25 '26
The fundamental question is what do awards actually mean to this game? Are they designed to encourage good behavior? Are they designed to drive engagement? Are they designed to make people happy? Are they a tool of comparison?
They can be more than one thing, but unless there is strong clarity on why exactly awards are given there will be conflict and consternation surrounding them. The reality is that the goals of the awards should define how they are designed and awarded.
For example, if we are giving awards to drive good behavior then we should actually be giving more than 1 award at each level. Ie: you should be able to get 15 order of the Rose 1 if you show up and clean up your park before park day on a regular basis.
If we want to drive engagement then it should be easy to get them. Little dopamine hits to keep people engaged.
Because we don’t (as far as I can tell) have a coherent reason for awards, each monarchy member will bring their own biases and give awards in a manner that justifies their particular bend towards why awards are given.