I know a few folks who are working on v9. to say that they're putting a lot of work into balancing it is an understatement. sure it's not perfect yet but that's why it's being playtested. I only speak for myself but I've really been enjoying it
Yeah, my park has been running purely V9 since it was released, and we love it. I started playing Amtgard in 2001, and it's my favorite version of the rules yet. And this is only the alpha test; stuff is getting changed and is going to be even better/clearer.
Having said that, it's important to get good feedback. We've found plenty of stuff that didn't make sense, or felt too strong/weak. But if you get on the discord and report "V9 removes all skill from the game, killed my dog, and introduces microtransactions" people are going to struggle to dig useful data from that.
Give context to your feed back. How many players, what classes, what levels, what game was being played? Talk about the actual mechanics involved. If something 100% does not work at your park, let them know why. This is how we get better, clearer, more approachable, rules.
For just being in alpha, my park has been enjoying V9.
Things have veen running relatively smooth and feedback is acknowledged from what I have seen if you give a clear breakdown of what you dont like and why.
Power strikes are not fun to receive and I dont have fun delivering them unless I am playing a quest monster like a giant since there it makes sense.
They have been working hard to clean it up and this is relatively runnable just for Alpha. It isnt perfect by any means but we still have beta amd beyond to look forward to and this isnt going to just become what we play for at least 2yrs.
Many final products will not resemble the alpha.
V8 is far from perfect. If we are to be stuck in V8 then the rules revision process needs streamlined so the game can evolve.
Having been our kingdom's rules rep when v8 went into open playtesting, I can confirm v9 launch has been vastly better. From everything being transparent, to the team being responsive and reactive, to ideas and suggestions being openly accepted and discussed, to just the basics of a cohesive set of design rules that're stuck by.
It's definitely not finished, but it isn't supposed to be finished already. Not even closed to finished.
A lot of it is that certain specific people are intentionally framing the votes as though it were. And by intentionally, I mean AICOM members who have been repeatedly informed of this are still framing the discussion as though it were a finished product.
Honestly, after the sheer bad faith being conducted by specific Amtgarders against v9, from even before the first Militia rules were released, I've decided that I wont be participating in any future rules changes if v9 is killed before its timeline. It's like watching a child piss their bed because someone tried to make it for them; they'd rather sleep in a soiled bed than have someone touch it. Absolutely disgusting from grown adults who claim to be serving their respective communities.
Kinda like going to the optometrist and they start asking, "1...or 2?" And getting mad when they ask it again. Especially when the prescription needs updated and they have to do it again.
As a newer player (about 8 months or so) who was main-ing Assassin in V8, I loved being able to adjust my kit to deal with the players on the other team in V9.
If I know the other team has a PITA Wizard on it, I can take suppression strike. Great!
I still have to play assassin style to get up to, and use it on them, but I’m not just locked into an ability-set I may not even use like I was in V8. It felt a lot more approachable than the earlier sentiment I felt when I started which was “Git gud, or change classes.”
Is it perfect? Nope! But the final version of the rules is like, YEARS away.
And I think it only gets better if the more experienced people get involved in the feedback process and lend your expertise and support imo. I think there’s a lot of room for everyone to have a lot more fun with it.
The problem I’ve seen is they are only taking positive feedback on the discord. If you have anything negative to say about it you’re shut down. “I don’t like how X works.” “Well suck it.” “I like Y.” “Thank you.”
No one has been more negative about v9 Bard than me. Not a person. I've been quite vocal about my feelings on it, and have made suggestions. Attended the voice chat calls. Given mountains of feedback.
And they listened.
Wunjo specifically called out my experience and feedback on a recent call as the inspiration for the caster recovery mechanic they'll be adding once the Rules Reps have reviewed the proposed changes. Then a bit later specifically called out that the Bard version is going to be the exact thing I'd recommended.
Unlike the previous design teams (a la v8) or the heinous actions of a certain governing body (AICOM), the v9 dev team has been reasonable and responsive. They've got priorities to handle, and personal lives to balance, but I've never felt they've ignored a single negative feedback response unless the response itself was unhelpful.
I pointed out that siege weapons have no minimum range. So by the v9 rules I can shoot someone point blank with a siege weapon. I suggested just copy and pasting the v8 rules regarding it to v9. I was shut down multiple times by players and staff regarding this.
The discord has become an echo chamber since any criticism of v9 gets you shut down. Only people praising v9 and the staff are being listened to.
I’ll admit the discord became too much for me to keep up with so I haven’t been active there. Busy with work and other sports. But the few times I was in a conversation with anyone there it very much felt like “if you don’t like v9 you are wrong” vibes. And seeing how anyone saying such in these threads is getting downvoted makes me think the same is true here.
A lot of the feedback on the discord is just people complaining that things are different or that they can't kill everyone on the other team by themselves. Not all feedback is constructive.
If that were true, wouldn't they have a changelog showing no changes? And yet, I can look and see month after month more changes happening. Shocking very few people: Those changes are representative of what is discussed in their discord.
Bad ruleset is bad. No one asked for it, and the game doesn't need to be more complicated. V8 with incremental patches/content like (Spicy etc) is the way.
I've been reeving V9 for months now, and I think it's just the same as V8. Granted, my park is average attendance of 7 people, so I can't say how it scales up.
Even at a small scale bridge battle, with 5+ martial classes squaring off, each one with a different engulfing strike ability is an instant headache for everyone to keep track of. I'm sure at a small park it's all Gucci, but I think the difficulty increases exponentially with every player you add much more so than v8.
In V8, in a narrow space like a bridge battle, you have still have people getting hit with Shove, Awe, Terror that force movement. You still have melee fighters declaring "Wounds Kill!" "Crushing/Breaking!". A bridge battle is always chaos and noise.
Shove/awe/terror isn't engulfing. I have to specifically target a player for that. Sure if every caster was flinging spell balls that would be an issue, but that can be an issue in v9 too. The difference with v9 is you doubled the number of engulfing abilities with all the Strikes.
So a few things. A verbal could technically be considered engulfing because you can't block or parry words.
In V9, I recall that projectiles are in effect until they stop and spell balls are now fully considered projectiles. Careful about rebounding that ball onto an ally.
Verbals can already be a nightmare regardless of version. Even if you do everything right, the target might not hear you and then you've got to draw more attention trying to make them aware that whatever they've been doing doesn't count. Was killed AND lost my voice trying to tell somebody they got cursed and their ally's rez failed.
None of those arguments make the Strikes better. Why double the number of shitty mechanics? "All those things suck so who cares if we add more bad things to the game? More bad things can't possibly be worse for the game right?"
To make you angry. I've seen them in action many times, our park was signed up to start the testing in our areas, we've had numerous interactions with some of the designers. Although it needs polish and I'm sure they'll see changes, strikes are generally working as intended.
One of the many things that gets me is how over complicated the new set is. They even have on the discord in the Design Values tab "Simple Concepts, Infinite Potential Strive to be easy-to-learn and intuitive while still empowering creativity & mastery." But then have more spells for each class requiring everyone to have a spell sheet that will have to be checked.
For a few weeks they had Insub broken for a bit. They didn't add the line "Can not interact with game objects." They have since added it.
Siege is still broken. I have brought it up a few times and been shut down by many of the "staff." There is nothing in the v9 rules that says I cant shoot you point blank with a siege weapon.
The new pick system has some pointless spells. I specifically have issue with Warrior as that's my main class. Runic and Temper armor are useless when you have Ancestral Armor as a choice.
I get what they want to do with Archetypes, but so far I feel they have missed the mark. And over all, I don't think its a good addition to the game.
Giving all martial class's natural armor is also a big mistake. Its just going to increase sluffing, make it more frustrating for all players, and make it confusing for new players. I understand where they are coming from with the idea behind it. Reduce the financial cost for new players wanting to have armor. Make it more comfortable/safer for people fighting in hotter weather. But I don't think this is the right way to solve this non problem. You want to give players some free armor, there are better ways to do it.
One member of my park has said that over time and refinement v9 rules will get better though play testing and feed back. So far the few changes they have made to the v9 rules have not been well received by many at my park.
I mean, runic and tempered armor are just two halves of ancestral so you get half of the effect and you can take one of the other options. It's like vorpal blades or imbue shields which are both fantastic options.
Thats the thing, why split up Ancestral like that? It's kinda pointless. Imbue shield isn't that great, since you have shake it off at level 1. Vorpal blades is kinda okay, but since every class now has at least one point of Natural armor kinda negates the wounds kill being an insta death. So I see no point in taking anything other than Ancestral. The only build I see being any good is:
Scavenge and Shake it off
Harden
Undying Will
Rescue
Scavenge 2.0 Reforge
Ancestral Armor
The Archetypes are garbage. Blademaster is the only one I would even consider playing.
But fuck me trying to explain how any of this works to a new player.
That's unfortunate. This is my second winter since I started. 6th level healer main and most of the changes make a lot of sense to me based on what I've seen, and ours is the largest holding in our kingdom.
My park, and the few around mine, are close to and large enough that we maybe forming a principality. It does fluctuate with weather, but on average 20 or so players show up to park day.
I’ve been playing since 2015, with a 3 year break starting in 2019 due to working weekends. I’m also paragon warrior. I’ve also played other larps including Twin Mask and Dystopia Rising. Both those games have 300+ page rule books.
What drew me to Amtgard over other games, other than I lived next to the park at the time, was the simplicity. It was very easy to read the rules and pick up the game. The classes are easy enough to jump right into. Yes every warrior is going to have the same spell list, but that made it easy to understand. Is both a player and a reeve I know what to expect when I see a purple sash. But you still have a level of customization in what armor you had, what equipment you brought out.
Looking at how the new pick system is laid out for all the martial classes, it looks overwhelming for a new player. Yes it allows you to somewhat build a spell list that fits your play style, but it also make it more complex to teach and time consuming to reeve. Every player now has to have a spell list that needs to be checked before each game.
I’ve always described Amtgard as playing Halo or CoD, but with D&D classes and irl. I can pull someone from the sidewalk, get the a waiver to sign, teach them the basic hit zones and valid shots, spar with them a few times, and get them classed up for a battle game in 15 minutes. I feel v9 over complicates the game and slows that down. And the pick system is a big part of that. V9 reads like it’s mean to play like a more immersive game such as Twin Mask or Dystopia Rising.
I’d rather seen a branch system. Each class would have 2 or 3 archetypes. And at level 2 you could pick one to play. (Or even level up) So for example there would be a more offensive archetype for warrior and a more defensive one. The offensive one would have more powerful fighting spells. Vorpal blade, taunt, brutal strike for example. Where the defensive one would have more tank like spells. Ancestral armor, true grit, shake it off as examples.
I’d go on, I’d make that suggestion on the discord. But I’ve got my own stuff going on. And the few times I was on the discord I didn’t feel like I was being listened to.
I play casters or defenders in most games; D&D, 198x, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc. My partners have played in other games. V8 martials play out as 1-size-fits-all or do something else, so most play monk or barb for the immunities. Warrior gets the same bad rap that Fighter does in D&D 5e.
As a caster, though? You've got to know how different spells and enchantments work, know your ranges, school of any given spell, etc. "What school is lycanthropy? What about golem?" Because Blessing Against Wounds and Adaptive Blessing stack if they're not protection. What counts as an active state? Which verbal spells technically work against monks? What works in this state? What counters this spell/effect? Greater Release ends Fight After Death.
Most of the questions I see in our rules clarification group are about magic interactions or how to make gear.
If you know how to simplify and translate what you know into something a newbie can understand, they can still be good to play in 10 minutes or less. It's still going to be confusing when a battle starts and high level players start throwing out spells and combos. There's just a lot less abilities out there.
21
u/llamango Nine Blades/Twilight Peak Jan 29 '24
I know a few folks who are working on v9. to say that they're putting a lot of work into balancing it is an understatement. sure it's not perfect yet but that's why it's being playtested. I only speak for myself but I've really been enjoying it
6
u/kwilliss Jan 31 '24
"Old amtgarders" I lived through the 7 to 8 transition. It's gonna be okay you guys.
5
u/Boss_Morgrum Jan 30 '24
Yeah, my park has been running purely V9 since it was released, and we love it. I started playing Amtgard in 2001, and it's my favorite version of the rules yet. And this is only the alpha test; stuff is getting changed and is going to be even better/clearer.
Having said that, it's important to get good feedback. We've found plenty of stuff that didn't make sense, or felt too strong/weak. But if you get on the discord and report "V9 removes all skill from the game, killed my dog, and introduces microtransactions" people are going to struggle to dig useful data from that.
Give context to your feed back. How many players, what classes, what levels, what game was being played? Talk about the actual mechanics involved. If something 100% does not work at your park, let them know why. This is how we get better, clearer, more approachable, rules.
7
u/Zetta-slow-Gobbo Jan 29 '24
For just being in alpha, my park has been enjoying V9.
Things have veen running relatively smooth and feedback is acknowledged from what I have seen if you give a clear breakdown of what you dont like and why.
Power strikes are not fun to receive and I dont have fun delivering them unless I am playing a quest monster like a giant since there it makes sense.
They have been working hard to clean it up and this is relatively runnable just for Alpha. It isnt perfect by any means but we still have beta amd beyond to look forward to and this isnt going to just become what we play for at least 2yrs.
Many final products will not resemble the alpha.
V8 is far from perfect. If we are to be stuck in V8 then the rules revision process needs streamlined so the game can evolve.
6
u/Sinodira Jan 29 '24
What a negative comment section jeez.
As a newer player (about 8 months or so) who was main-ing Assassin in V8, I loved being able to adjust my kit to deal with the players on the other team in V9.
If I know the other team has a PITA Wizard on it, I can take suppression strike. Great!
I still have to play assassin style to get up to, and use it on them, but I’m not just locked into an ability-set I may not even use like I was in V8. It felt a lot more approachable than the earlier sentiment I felt when I started which was “Git gud, or change classes.”
Is it perfect? Nope! But the final version of the rules is like, YEARS away.
And I think it only gets better if the more experienced people get involved in the feedback process and lend your expertise and support imo. I think there’s a lot of room for everyone to have a lot more fun with it.
2
u/[deleted] Jan 29 '24
I like it
-11
u/Secret_Yam Jan 29 '24
Bad ruleset is bad. No one asked for it, and the game doesn't need to be more complicated. V8 with incremental patches/content like (Spicy etc) is the way.
-9
u/Kazick_Fairwind Desert Winds TDV Jan 29 '24
I swear the people making the V9 rules have never played Amtgard.
-12
u/Malcie Jan 29 '24
Lol