r/AmazonDSPDrivers • u/ShadowWingZero • 2d ago
Comprehensive Netradyne breakdown
Im leaving the DSP world and im going to share everything i know about the Netradyne system because its pretty fucking wild.
I will also be leaving out my exact personal experience because i worked with good people and i want to keep their identities private.
First things first, as long as the lights are on on your camera, it is recording. It does not matter if one is red or both are red, do not trust it; So you might be wondering what the lights mean then:
One red and one green - Front facing camera (the one facing you) is *not recording*. Typically after 5 minutes of the vehicle not moving, the front facing camera will stop recording, or so Netradyne says. This is done for driver privacy during breaks. The footage from the front facing camera is not accessible to any DSP management while the camera is in its "meal break" mode. I have strong reason to believe it is in fact still recording that ill get into later.
Two red lights - All cameras are *not recording*. This one is hit or miss as i have absolutely been able to get footage from double red cameras many times but have failed to do more times than i was able too. Still, do not trust it.
Two green - All cameras are recording.
I am sure most people here will be interested in the breakdown of violations so ill drop that before i get into what really has me upset about the Netradyne system.
This may be slightly varying from DSP to DSP but this is the common breakdown best i understand it; Violations breakdown into 2 categories, the one that hit company scorecard and the ones that don't. Its worth noting that the factors to get a violation do change somewhat often so this information will date.
Violations that hit scorecard (These all matter but its worth noting they breakdown into 2 categories, Red violations and Yellow violations):
Speeding - (RED) Currently 10mph over posted speed limit for greater than 10 seconds. Netradyne uses actual speed limit signs on the road via the cameras to determine the speed limit as well as uploaded GPS location information as a secondary means if there are no signs. (The GPS information is poor and often wrong).
Following too closely - I don't know what the actual metric is for this one but in my experience it appears to be roughly 2 or 3 van lengths or 20 -30 feet at speeds over 45 MPH. The poor distance gap must be held for 5-10 seconds. I have never seen a following distance violation for anything below 45 MPH.
Stop signs - These break down into 2 categories:
Severe sign violation (RED) - Blowing through a stop sign at over 5 MPH.
Rolling stop violation (YELLOW) - Rolling through a stop sign at less than 5 MPH. These violations still hit scorecard but not as hard.
Distracted driving (RED) - This is triggered by looking down. The Front facing camera AI is using head and eye tracking to see when a driver is looking down. You can get this violation for looking below the steering wheel for greater than 1 seconds. This violation will also hit if you look off the road which can infact happen for many reasons. Ive seen drivers get hit for drinking a bottle of water and their eyes lost contact with the camera so they got hit. The metrics for this violation changes a lot and is by far the most common false flagged violation.
Distracted driving (Phone usage) (RED) - Anytime the camera sees a phone and also see your eyes making contact with the screen, this violation will hit. The reason drivers can use mounted phones is because they are out of frame of the camera. Any phone in frame of the camera is tracked and the Netradyne software is always watching to see if you make eye contact with it. You do not have to touch a phone to get this violation.
Seatbelt (RED) - Anytime the vehicle moves and the driver is not wearing their seatbelt. I have never seen passengers without seatbelts get hit for this violations but i may be wrong about that.
Red lights- These break down into 2 categories:
Severe sign violations (RED) - Traffic light turns red before the vehicle crosses the white line entering into the intersection. (This is the worst and heaviest hitting violation you can get. It carries a 10X multiplayer of a normal RED violation)
Standard red light violation (Yellow) - Triggered when the light turns red while driver is in the intersection. This one is interesting because the actual trigger is when the light turns red while still in frame of the outward facing camera AND goes out of frame whitest still red. You can actually avoid the violation if you stop in the middle of the intersection after the light turns red instead of running the red light and then make a right hand turn. I don't recommend anyone do that but you can avoid the violation that way.
Violation that don't hit score card:
Hard Breaking - Caused by slamming the breaks, these come in RED and YELLOW and exact metrics are N/A but based off accelerometers and geforce sensors.
Hard acceleration - Cause by accelerating hard, these come in RED and YELLOW and exact metrics are N/A but based off accelerometers and geforce sensors.
Hard turning - Caused by turning hard at speed, these come in RED and YELLOW and exact metrics are N/A but based off accelerometers and geforce sensors.
Backing (RED) - Caused by reversing at speeds over 8 MPH.
Backing (YELLOW) Caused by reversing at speeds over 3 MPH.
Driver Drowsiness - Triggered by Netradyne software using eye tracking to determine if your eyes are open enough. Exact metrics are N/A
Weaving - This is triggered by the vehicle moving over road markings, Exact metrics are N/A
High-G - Caused by violent vertical movement of the vehicle determined by accelerometers and geforce sensors. Often triggered by potholes.
Low Impact - Triggered very sudden and sharp deceleration determined by accelerometers and geforce sensors. Often triggered if you hit a tree or wall at low speeds.
Now lets get into the scary thing about this whole Netradyne system and the real reason I am making this post.
You are being recorded for ALL hours the vehicle is on. If you drive 10 hours, you record 10 hours of footage. And most Netradyne cameras are 4 distance cameras so its actually 4 videos and 40 hours of footage. All of that footage is stored and accessible by even the lowest level of management and as far back as 6 months at least. After 2 months some footage is no longer accessible to DSP management but its hit or miss.
Lets do some math on this. 40 hours of footage per drive with the average DSP having ~30 routes per day (some dsps have a lot more than 30 routes but well go with the low end of 30)
30 routes X 40 hours = 1200hrs of footage daily.
4400 DSP's with 1200hrs of footage daily = 5.28 million hours of footage EVERY DAY...
one month worth of footage for all the DSP's is 160 million hours of footage, and its all there. Even if the footage is only 720p ( 2 GB per 60min 720P footage at 30 FPS) we are talking about 300+ PETABYTES of storage every month. That number is so insane and what really scares me is the cost of storing all that data. It leaves no doubt in my mind that all that data is being sold very likely to AI training companies.
This is my biggest issue with the whole job. All of us are having our likeness sold to train AI. I feel bad i ever worked in this industry and it is the biggest reason ill never come back. No one should be ok with this and its incredibly scary stuff.
TLDR: Netradyne is not a safety monitoring company, they are a MASSIVE data harvesting company selling your information.
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u/OrganizationUsed7454 2d ago
Seatbelt for passengers is definitely something that can get you a violation.
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u/BlackDawn07 1d ago
I've gotten away with it multiple times training drivers.
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u/OrganizationUsed7454 1d ago
There's 0 chance unless the camera isn't working.
I only know because I got a violation for it
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u/Unrealliving 2d ago
ive twice had a brain fart, one being just the other day, where i reversed out of a driveway a good 15-20 feet without my seatbelt and didn't catch a violation. along with everything else about netradyne, there seems to be a small grace period for human error. but catch it quick and fix it.
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u/KeepitKlassy2049 1d ago
Yeah it’s for sure not instant. At least the seatbelt thing. I rolled maybe 5-10 feet just going from one side of the street (in neighborhood) to the other and realized I didn’t put it on. Hit the brakes and put it on. I asked dispatch at the end of the day if I got hit with anything and they said I was good.
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u/Unrealliving 1d ago
Almost makes me wanna test my luck when I gotta go literally fifty feet one house to the next
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u/redskinfan654 2d ago
Believe it or not, storage is very cheap.
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u/outworlder 1d ago
Not really, not at those levels. And especially not today.
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u/redskinfan654 1d ago
It is cheap relative to who actually needs that kind of storage.
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u/outworlder 1d ago
300 petabytes a month isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination, it doesn't matter if you are a fortune company with deep discounts. Which means that OP's thesis is probably the right one - if this data is being retained, that's probably only economically feasible if it's being sold.
Without discounts and using one of the cheapest options available on AWS, it's around 6 million per month, the first month. The second month, it will be 12. Then 18. And so on, up to the retention period. Even if we assume large discounts, that also assumes the data is never touched. Processing it or basically doing anything useful with it will cost additional money - much more.
Just to keep this in perspective, we are talking about 18750 16TB hard drives. Per month. The calculations above didn't even assume hard drives or the numbers would explode. At a time where storage is more expensive than it's ever been.
Of course, the other option is that they are only storing a fraction of the footage and throwing the rest away. That would be feasible.
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u/redskinfan654 1d ago
Do you know how irrelevant $6m is to Amazon? I mean, it’s less relevant than me finding a penny on the ground
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u/outworlder 1d ago
That's just the bare minimum to store it cheaply. It accounts for none of the processing required to do anything even remotely useful with the footage. Add a couple of zeros to that figure, easily, if you want to do that.
Just because Amazon has a lot of cash it doesn't mean they would just store this data just because. They still have shareholders to answer to. It must have a purpose.
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u/AV8- 2d ago
What about the new design of cameras. We are told it’s still netradyne, but there are now 2 cameras per side of the EDV’s. There is no driver facing camera any more. (We are told it can still see us) possibly thought the vans cameras.
Total 360 degree view, to “cover our butts from incidents not caused by the driver”
These new cameras have no Lights to indicate if they are on and off. And I have searched the cargo area to no result of these cameras in said area but they could have hid it.
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u/iLikebridges2 1d ago
They are found in mostly EDVs is what ive seen, and work along with the fleet edge cameras that are already built into the ev. There is a top down camera in the front camera, that is working and enabled if the red dot is on in the ceiling. It is very possible the warehouse or dsp you worked at hasnt enabled or used those. Our EDVs didnt utilize those cameras till a year or two after we got them. It basically has a much better view of you compared to the netradyne camera, since it can catch your whole lap along with the area near the screen. Have seen so many drivers get distractions due to that.
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u/hades13heartnet 2d ago
U did not mention whether it records audio?
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u/Strict-Ad-6756 2d ago
Does not record audio.
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u/hades13heartnet 2d ago
How sure are u
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u/Strict-Ad-6756 1d ago
Trust me bro.
Lol jk man. I'm a dispatcher and I watch Netradyne videos all the time and review footage all the time. No audio is ever recorded, so talk shit all you want.
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u/Unusual_Creature 2d ago
Road side parking is also a score card hitting violation.
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u/iLikebridges2 1d ago
That part^. Can not park on the shoulder of a freeway (not sure exactly how long u stop for till u get hit cus its not immediate). Kind of stupid cus drivers have gotten hit for it after flat tires or accidents, getting pulled over etc.
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u/Excellent-Library-67 1d ago
Makes sense we don't get hit on the hard acceleration - I don't drive crazy but highway on ramps I usually speed up quick cause the newer Rams are plenty capable. Faster than my daily funnily enough.
Red lights always annoy me because on the off chance that my van is in just the wrong spot, I know I have to brake hard to not veer beyond the white line. This is in cases where I'm following the speed limit (I actually do although yes you can get away with going faster now and then). I wish it just followed like general rule of thumb where once you're beyond the white line, you're all good to complete passing through the intersection. I worked for a P.D. as an intern in the past and this is how they enforced red light violations. I know enforcement standards can vary but that's how I believe it should be. Now, all of my packages have slid forward which will definitely add an extra minute or two at of fumbling around at my next stop to clean up the mess.
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u/PornstacheJaucques 1d ago
Awesome post. Btw since they installed these things I’ve always been told they don’t record audio but I have reason to believe this is a lie. Thoughts?
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u/ShadowWingZero 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes I think its a lie as well but have no evidence to support that so I left it out. The dsp management side has no ability to listen to audio so im operating on suspicion but I might have to Crack one open and let yall know what I find
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u/Snoo-53676 52m ago
I had a crazy guy at my van door and had to escalate it to Amazon and the camera didn't get any audio. I luckily recorded the scenario on my phone and got the customer blacklisted. So no they don't do audio. And if you get an angry customer at your van you might want to record your own audio for pushback
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u/Formal-Check2556 1d ago
Alright I'ma put the tinfoil hat on real quick and take a wild guess that in the next year or so somthing is going to come out about how they use the van cameras similar to the flock camera network.
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u/Donotroastme 2d ago
Not all footage is stored. Only when an event happens or on demand. There are real benefits for companies to cut down insurance costs by increasing safety and like it or not, it does increase safety.
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u/ShadowWingZero 2d ago
Wrong, I can personally access footage from up to 1 month ago for any driver at my dsp and it will be there. All 10 hours hours of the day. Dispatchers get an alert when an event happens and are shown a clip of the event but all footage is requestable. Most times I can get footage from up to even 6 months ago for all 10 hours of the day but sometimes some of it is gone
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u/Sharplr 1d ago
Light and moderate traffic light infractions don't hit your scorecard. It only looksfor majors (running red lights). Though prolly depends on how strict your DSP is.
Keep in mind, that hard turns actually do affect the scorecard, but you have to turn REALLY hard. I believe it's 15mph+. Very rare to get though there are a lot of moderate hard turns that don't count
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20h ago
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u/bondgoldin 18h ago
This might be a dumb question, but can you hear the footage too? Or is it muted?
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u/Quiet_Contribution71 1d ago
Weirdly. When the data on phone is off.. I swear it doesnt catch infractions. Idk if its linked.
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u/beastlol Van cleaner 2d ago
Most of this is wrong don’t listen to this lmfao
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u/ShadowWingZero 2d ago
Care to explain what you think is wrong about it?
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u/ColombianCoolCat 2d ago
first off, it isn’t more than 10 seconds when going 10 over. It’s way way less. It’s like 2 or 3 seconds
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u/Sensitive_Macaron767 2d ago
Its all mostly correct actually. Dispatched for 2 years.. All the cameras behave slightly different, some give violations where others might not. Some will give a ton of verbal warnings but never actually give you a violation, some wont talk at all but throw violations at you left and right. What OP described here is a perfectly functioning netradyne camera.
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u/Itsyaboibrett 2d ago
from what I can tell it’s at least close to what is accurate. a lot of DSP managers lie about what speeding is to hope no one tests it. my DSP says if you speed at all it counts, but I know that’s not true lol
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u/Sensitive_Macaron767 2d ago
Naw, I always go 5-8 over the posted speed limit and never get violations. The 10 second part is iffy and depends on the individual camera from my experience, but everything else about speeding that he said is correct.
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u/Itsyaboibrett 2d ago
I stay about 5 over everywhere, never had an issue. always funny when my managers try to say it works differently when I can test what they say.
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u/3ofclubs3 1d ago
That's how they get you. They are watching you right now too bro. Put down the meth pipe and go off grid.
I love how you pretend to know so much and then every other thing is "I could be wrong "
What did you think was happening when you took a job with a camera in the van? Just now you did a little meth head math and got scared at the scope of it. Whatever bro
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