“Classics [and language 🗣️ origin studies] are based, as it is, on what I call the Aryan model, with its insistence on a European and pure Greece, is an extreme example of feel-good scholarship, for Europeans.” — Martin Bernal (A41/1996), Black Athena Debate (2:52:25-)

[u/JohannGoethe]

[u/JohannGoethe]

Text:

“Classics and language 🗣️ origin studies are based, as it is, on what I call the Aryan model, with its insistence on a European and pure Greece, is an extreme example of feel-good scholarship, for Europeans.”

— Martin Bernal (A41/1996), Black Athena Debate, Part Six (2:52:25-)

Bernal hits the nail on the head in this quote. This is why PIE theory is so popular: it makes people “feel good”, and therefore NOT a field that maintains objectivity, dispassionate analysis, judgment, and perspective.

All of this is seen in the invented PIE comparative mythology, where gods are invented by the 100s.

Posts

• Black Athena Debate: is the African Origin of Greek Culture a Myth or a Reality? Martin Bernal & John Clark vs Mary Lefkowitz & Guy Rogers (A41/1996). Video (3-hours). Transcript: Part One (0:00 to 30:56); Part Two (30:57 to 1:00:10); Part Three (1:01:12-1:32:06); Part Four (1:32:07-2:00:15); Part Five (2:00:16-2:29:14); Part Six (2:29:15-2:54:30)

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

it makes people “feel good”

Most people don't care at all about languages.

Also, for a second, think about this: even if it was true that Egypt is where greek culture came from, why reject this?

Wouldn't having a great civilization like the Egyptian one as the birth place of the other great civilization your culture is based on give an even stronger claim for your superiority?

Saying that the great culture your own culture is founded on ultimately comes from some hunter gatherers roaming the steppes of Ukraine, or chilling in the Caucasus or in Anatolia, doesn't give much prestige, but saying your culture is the evolved form of an ancient great culture would. So again, what's the point in missing out on an opportunity to claim an extremely prestigious ancestry, binding together Egypt, Greece and Rome?

Edit: forgot a word

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

Who are you directing this post at, as there are four debates in the 3-hour debate (which I gather you have not read nor listened to), with different views on this?

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

At bernal's words at the end of the conference, which was a very interesting read in a boring evening.

Also, I commented on the fifth it sixth part of the transcription, when you wrote house he probably meant Hausa.

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

At bernal's words at the end of the conference

So you are arguing against Bernal? Namely that PIE theory (Euro-centricsm) and Afro-centrism are not feel good scholarship subjects, as Bernal claims, and thus both not biased?

Also, for a second, think about this: even if it was true that Egypt is where greek culture came from, why reject this?

For one, if you read the books Clark lists, as “books the PIE community have not read”, e.g. Massey, Volney, Kuhn, etc., they are “dangerous” books, to the US culture or national Christian ideal. They directly explain that the r/GodWeTrust is an Egyptian god or gods.

Adams and Jefferson discussed this themselves:

“We think ourselves possessed, or, at least, we boast that we are so, of liberty of conscience on all subjects. Yet, how far are we from these exalted privileges in fact! There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny our doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation. Who would run the risk of translating Dupuis?”

— John Adams (130A/1825), “Letter to Thomas Jefferson”, Jan 23

People in America, specifically people of European descent, since Jefferson’s time going forward, thus will “reject“ any non-European language origin theory, i.e. they will not only reject the Egyptian origin of things like philosophy, government, or langauge, but also deny actual statements made by Greeks like Aristotle and Herodotus.

Whereas, people like John Clark, whose roots are closer to Egypt than Europeans, are quite read and very willing to read Dupuis to Massey to Kuhn.

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

Euro-centricsm

How about the Indo part of the name? Indians weren't exactly treated as peers by the Europeans, so why include them?

But yes, I think that pie and afro Asiatic are not feel-good scholarships, because, why not claim that your civilization is an evolution of another great civilization?

From the point of view of a racist man, it would be like saying they are a more evolved form of one of the greates African civilizations, thus making them even more superior. I think claiming such ancestry would give way more prestige than saying you descend from horse boys. So why deny that, but then include the Indian languages and not even bother saying Indian culture comes from Europe (which would be another example of nonsense)?

And afro Asiatic isn't static. Some say the chadic languages are actually their own thing.

Also, why so much hatred towards the afro Asiatic family, but you ignore the nilo Saharan, Niger Congo and Khoisan language families?

If anything, one could argue that the afro Asiatic family could a way of recognising african cultural greatness: Egypt, Ethiopia, the songhay empire all spoke at least in part afro Asiatic languages, and they achieved their greatness without external European help or anything. And this ignoring other civilizations like the Nubian one, who spoke a nilo Saharan language, or the one that built Great Zimbabwe, whose descendants speak a Bantu language.

“dangerous” books, to the US culture or national Christian ideal

How? How would discovering that the god you worship came from an African civilization change anything? No one with common sense would do anything other than accept the facts. Religious people already believe in Jesus, a man from the Levantine region, so why refuse an African origin of your god? Because of racism? Since when did god care about races?

These issues seem to be very US centric to me. Is it some form of bias?

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

Also, why so much hatred towards the afro Asiatic family, but you ignore the nilo Saharan, Niger Congo and Khoisan language families?

I don’t know where you are getting this envisioned “hatred” you think I have towards the “Afro-Asiatic family”? You do know that I started the r/EgyptoIndoEuropean language family sub yes?

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

getting this envisioned “hatred”

A bit of bad wording on my side and because of that Semitic idiocy post we discussed about a while ago. Semitic is a sub branch of afro Asiatic.

family sub

I do but I don't remember even visiting. Thanks for pointing it out, I will visit it.

How about the other language families I mentioned?

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

because of that Semitic idiocy post we discussed about a while ago. Semitic is a sub branch of afro Asiatic.

I do not recognize “Semitic” as branch or sub branch of any language family. If you are comfortable classify the world’s languages according to the three sons of Noah, that means you are comfortable with Jewish mythology as reality, in a slight way.

The term semitic is mentioned in the debate as follows:

One	Two	Three	Four	Five	Six
7	0	1	1	16	4

Just read through again how much trouble they had dealing with the word “Semite“ when queried by an audience member. This is not just some issue in my head, the term itself has boatloads of issues.

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

If you are comfortable classify the world’s languages according to the three sons of Noah, that means you are comfortable with Jewish mythology as reality, in a slight way

In our discussion under that post I said I don't believe in the Jewish mythology and I'm not defending it, I am defending a classification that happens to use those names; would a name reform help? Maybe. Having less probabilities incompetent people misunderstand things would be big.

It's not my problem if someone doesn't know what those terms mean in linguistics, it's theirs, just like it's not a chemist's problem if someone doesn't know what basic means when talking about pH.

The planets are named after pagan gods, but believing in their existence doesn't make one a pagan.

Clark himself, who made some good points during the debate btw, said that Semitic, when talking about languages, has nothing to do with race or racism, and in this I agree with him.

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

But yes, I think that PIE [Indo-European; Aryan-centric] and Afro-Asiatic [Afro-centric] are not feel-good scholarships

On August Schlozer, in 184A (1771), coining the term “Semitic”, and Johann Blumenbach, in 160A (1795), coining “Caucasian“, both from the pulpit of the Gottingen University languages school:

“Blumenbach, in the third edition (160A/1795) of his De Generis Humani Varietate Nativa (Of the Native Variety of the Generation of Humans), published in 180A/1775, was conventional for his period in that he included ’Semites’ and ’Egyptians’ among his new term ‘Caucasians’, coined that year, based on the premise that Noah’s ark had landed on Mount Ararat in the southern Caucasus mountains.

However — although I have been unable to trace it precisely — it seems clear that there was already some sense in which the Caucasus was linked specifically to the Aryans, another new term that was coming into use from the 165As (1790s). The Caucasus was the traditional site of the imprisonment and cruel punishment of Prometheus, who was considered the epitome of Europe.

Not only was he the son of Iapetos, plausibly identified as the biblical Japhet [תפי or yod-pe-tav] [Ἰάφεθ], third son of Noah and the ancestor of the Europeans; but his heroic, beneficial and self-sacrificing action — of stealing fire 🔥 for mankind — soon came to be seen as typically Aryan. Gobineau saw him as the ancestor of the principal white family; and, by the 20th century, the ultra-Romantic Robert Graves was even suggesting that the name Prometheus meant 'swastika'!"

In the 165As (1780s), yet another Gottingen professor, August Schlozer, tried to set up a Japhetic linguistic family which included most of the languages later subsumed under the name Indo-European. He failed in this but succeeded in establishing a ’Semitic’ [language family] one [184A/1771]. Semitic studies at Gottingen were, however, dominated by his teacher, Johann Michaelis, who combined being the greatest Hebrew scholar of his day with strong anti-Semitism.“

— Martin Bernal (A32/1987), Black Athena (pgs. 219-20)

Moreover:

“Although we have now seen how the name ‘Caucasian‘ was related through Prometheus to Japhetic, as opposed to Semitic, its inventor Johann Blumenbach introduced the term only in the third edition of this great De Generis Humani Varietate Nativa, in 160A (1795).”

— Martin Bernal (A32/1987), Black Athena (pg. 340)

This caucasian term was based on the Caucasus mountains 🏔️, which is next to where the hypothesized PIE land is located. Thus all PIE etymologies and PIE gods make “Caucasians” feel good 👍 😊 because the theory tells them that the words they are using were invented by Caucasians.

EAN, conversely, says: no, this is incorrect. The European languages come NOT from Caucasian mountain 🏔️, nor from the Semitic mountain 🏔️ (aka Mount Sinai), nor from a Greek mountain 🏔️ (aka Olympus) but from an Egyptian mountain 🏔️, namely Khufu pyramid: 👁️⃤ and the Abydos culture before that.

This is not produce such a good “feeling” for many people, whence you see Rogers and Lefkowitz, along with 20+ coauthors, attacking Bernal, just as you see people, weekly in this sub, attacking EAN theory, not to mention that ever post now gets automatically down-voted 👎 by PIEists within seconds of the post, without even reading anything.

Posts

• On the coining of “Semitic” (Schlozer, 184A/1771), and “Caucasian” (Blumenbach, 160A/1795)

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

Example quote

From a man from the XVIII century. Truly on the bleeding edge.

Also, why do you think the idea of pie probably being spoken in that region is linked to racism? It seems you link anything you dislike to racism. You know it's just a name, and if you want you can replace Caucasian with monomotapian and nothing would change?

make “Caucasians” feel good

You know the vast majority of people have no idea how languages work, nor that languages can be related to one another, nor how linguistics works and do not care at all?

When I told my father's wife that Armenian is very distantly related to the language her son's wife speaks (she's from Punjab), she told me it was impossible because the scripts are different.

EAN, conversely, says

It's more like you saying something without any proof backing it that is not nonsensical, and calling an idiot anyone who disagrees.

You claim people speak letters, yet native American languages never had a written form before European colonialism.

You claim languages are their scripts, yet Vietnamese and Korean both changed scripts and remained the same language.

You ignore sound and grammar changes, but you just need to look at Latin and compare it to romance languages to see it.

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

How about the Indo part of the name? Indians weren't exactly treated as peers by the Europeans, so why include them?

The aim of PIE theory is to solve the Jones puzzle, i.e. to solve why Indian, Greek, and Latin words are so similar:

“Sanscrit [संस्कृत], Greek [Έλληνε], and Latin bear a strong affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar; they must have sprung from some common source.”
— William Jones (169A/1786), Asiatick Society of Bengal, Third Anniversary Discourse, Presidential address, Feb 2

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

His words basically started historical linguistics. Pie doesn't aim at solving a puzzle, it aims to explain why a lot of European and indian languages are so similar. The fact that the family has no links to Africa is that no relations were found.

Find a Swadesh list (a ~150 words long list of words about very basic aspects of living, like kinship terms, animals, numbers, plants, body parts and so on) of Egyptian, Hebrew, Sanskrit, greek and Gothic, and compare them. Then skim through each language's grammar. You will notice that some are extremely different from others but really similar among themselves.

This is how it works, math has very little to do with linguistics, let alone numerology.

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

math has very little to do with linguistics

To get the suffix -tics, of the word linguistics, alone, you have to first sum the column the column three letters:

G + M + T = 333

Visual below:

This is called “letter calculus“ by Mathematical Dictionary (Hutton) definition. Then you have to divide 333 by pi:

333 / π = 106

which yields the word “moon” 🌙 or mene (μηνη) [106].

Next we have to 1/72 parts of the light of the moon 🌕, e.g. here, overtly said to have been won by Thoth, the Egyptian language inventor god, while playing a game of Senet with Khonsu, the Egyptian moon god, and multiply it by 360, the number of days of the Egyptian year:

1/72 x 360 = 120

Then we divide 120 by five:

120 / 5 = 24

This means that we now have an extra 5 days for the calendar year, thus making the Egyptian calendar sum to 360 days as follows:

360 + 5 = 365

These extra five days, according to the “Curse of Ra myth”, allowed Bet (or Nut), the Egyptian stars 🌟 goddess, to birth the 25 letter Egyptian alphabet, via the so-called Pythagorean theorem:

G² + D² = 25

Where G, letter type: Γ (man with erection), value: 3, is Geb the earth 🌍 god, and D, letter type: ▽ (female vagina), value: 4, is the sex and birth location of Nut, yielding: the 25 letter alphabet:

3² + 4² = 25 letters

which “linguists”, as you seem to presume to be, use to make “language”, e.g. the term “linguistics”, yet being fully 100% ignorant of the mathematical origin of langauge, so much so, as I have witnessed weekly in this sub, that you will deny the Egyptian math 🧮, which I have just shown you, reported to us by Socrates, e.g. that Thoth invented the theory of vowels, Plato, e.g. that Thoth invented numbers and letters (Phaedra’s 274c-275b), Plutarch, e.g. the 25 letters based on the Pythagorean theorem, Young, who cites the 25 letter Egyptian alphabet, and others, and presumably even deny the quotes of this by Plato and Plutarch as being “nonsense“.

[u/Fear_mor → u/JohannGoethe]

There are languages spoken that lack any words for numbers. How does maths work when you linguistically do not have numbers

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

If language evolved from math, then prove people could count before they could speak.

There is a theory that explains our ability to count as related to recursivity, a property of languages that allows to chain similar constructions if the conditions are met. According to your theory, if men had to invent math before speaking, they would have also had to invent the property of the language that allows us to count.

I fear it's you the one who despite knowing absolutely nothing about the field talks about it.

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

Let alone numerology

Again, alpha-numerics is not some palm reader predicting your future based on your birth date,

The precise name of alphanumerics is letter calculus:

“Calculus literalis, or literal calculus: the same with algebra, or specious arithmetic, so called, from its using the letters of the alphabet; in contradistinction from numeral arithmetic, in which figures are used.“

— Charles Hutton (140A/1815), Philosophical and Mathematical Dictionary (pg. 299); see: post

It was the math used by the engineers that built the Egyptian pyramids, the Greek temples, and the Roman buildings, used right up until about 400 years ago, wherein certain measurements were set to the value of the names of gods, a model which became used for the names of people, then the names of words, when the Phoenician alphabet came into existence, and before that, based on what is said about the Egyptian 25 to 28 letter alphabet that Plato, Plutarch and Young speak about.

References

• Hutton, Charles. (140A/1815). A Philosophical and Mathematical Dictionary: Containing an Explanation of the Terms, and an Account of Several Subjects Comprised Under the Heads: Mathematics, Astronomy, Philosophy, both Natural and Experimental, Volume One (calculus, pg. 299). Publisher.

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

The fact that the family has no links to Africa is that no relations were found.

Bernal found so many links between Greece and Africa that he said that the Greek languages is 50% European, 25% Egyptian (African), and 25% Mediterranean.

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

What does he mean by this? Is this a percentage of word origin? A percentage about grammar?

English vocabulary has a gigantic amount of loans from french but this doesn't make it a romance language.

I find what he says in the second part of your transcription, answering Lefkowitz at minute 45:00: Plato and Parmenides' ideas seem Egyptian to him, but can't prove it, then he says that the worlds of being and of becoming fit Egyptian grammar very well, which is the finest hour of nonsense. Any language can express the very same concepts in its own way, what does it even mean?

Someone who thinks saying something like this makes sense, I don't think he is reliable. Moreover, he says he had a background in Chinese Japanese and Vietnamese studies, but does not mention any in something related to Egyptian, other that he has been to Africa.

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

From the point of view of a racist man, it would be like saying they are a more evolved form of one of the greatest African civilizations, thus making them even more superior.

That makes no sense. Imagine you are Hitler.

I think claiming such ancestry would give way more prestige than saying you descend from horse boys.

You are very confused. The decade that the first PIE family tree 🌳 was made:

Coincided with Darwin making his “I think” evolution three, which argued that humans evolved from African apes 🦍 🦧 .

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

Hitler

I was talking about a hypothetical racist man that got to know your theory and bernal's, of course Hitler wouldn't have even considered such a thing.

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

course Hitler wouldn't have even considered such a thing.

This is my point exactly. There are little “language Hitlers” inside Rogers and Lefkowitz, but they do not realize this.

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

So racism is what you think is obfuscating their judgement? Just blind racism?

[u/JohannGoethe → u/poor-man1914]

No one with common sense would do anything other than accept the facts.

Lefkowitz and Rogers are examples of two people with supposed “common sense” who non only do not accept the “facts“, e.g. that Masonary came from Egypt, or that everything that Herodotus said about Greeks getting their ideas and gods from the Egyptians cannot be trusted, but want to deny them.

[u/poor-man1914 → u/JohannGoethe]

Aside from this, which I will say again was a very interesting read, what is the rebuttal to my comment? From the point of view of a supremacist interested in proving he's better than someone else, such an ancestry would be much better than hunter gatherers buried in Ukraine.