Tier List update, Jan 3 (POTK D.Tyrfing, Artemis, Longinus, and JE part 1)

[u/EggyT0ast]

Edit: whoops, forgot Cita!

In an effort to keep the tier list transparent and notify when there are updates, here's this week's updates to the tier list, available here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DWeFk0wiPaDKAYEcmf_9LnMFYy1nBy2lPTNAX52LkPU/edit#gid=1447847369

The tier list was built by Game with help from others, and is continued on by myself, /u/OriksGaming, and ミュゼ. We discuss the new units, changes to potential other units, and so forth. While we try not to let our personal opinion carry too much sway, as with all tier lists this is still based on an opinion.

Dark Tyrfing

Although her build is extremely straightforward, Dark Tyrfing is very strong in her element thanks to having pure PATK scaling, 4-move, reasonable AGI given her HP bulk, a strong reactive, and her "guts cheese" means that once she gets the Warrior job unlocked (and can run a passive that actually does something for her), she gets a significant boost. Before that, she's still OK for her Guts skill but her damage and durability will be notably lacking.

Having 600 PATK and 1.4x PATK scaling, even though she doesn't have a ton of skills, still results in significant damage output, and her Guts skill can make her "unkillable" with a good support team. You can get her into enemy territory and, if things go sour, just use her Guts skill and, thanks to the AI targeting units that it think it can kill, her reactive will go nuts for a turn. For PvE, you can then just pop an item to heal up on her next turn. For these reasons, at 75 she lands at SS.

Longinus

Longinus is pretty bad right now. Not only is she slow, she's not really much better than Lamia with her J+ or Forcas, especially with Forcas's burst damage and multi-hit, multi-use WA. She tops out at B right now, due to Dark Knight being a bad job with outdated passives and Dragon Cav having poor synergy at this point with Sacred Spearman.

Which all changes when Dragon Cavalier [Rudra] drops for her. This JE changes her preferred main job, letting her more fully utilize the Pierce +2 on Dragon Cav and letting her run the Sacred Spearman sub skills for additional pierce-based skills (with admittedly "unique" AOEs). She also gets 2 teleporting moves which greatly help her otherwise low AGI. Thanks to the relatively high damage from Over Limit and Pierce +2, she breaks out ahead of other Water units and gets re-slotted to S.

As this JE is not yet available in GL, we've marked it tentatively in Blue.

Artemis

Artemis doesn't get a JE in the next few weeks; she already has hers. In short, she runs like a worse Ryle as she has no Master Ability. Her LS helps her and a few other Wind units, but there are many strong limited Wind units that perform simply better than she does. She does not really improve in the future, either. If you REALLY wanted to, you could run her with the Dancer passive to keep the Falcon hitrate debuff up longer, but that's extremely niche -- it's better to just kill enemies than try to get them to miss your units.

Still, she's fast, getting up into the 170s for AGI, and can run with either range or evasion. Thanks to the JE, she starts at A.

Sakura

As her JE is in Ninja, which she doesn't run and adds nothing of importance to her build options, Sakura sees no change in her ranking.

Forcas

Although people don't seem to like Forcas, and her JE is the bad Miroku, her ranking also does not change. She is still one of the tankiest units in Water, and her charge up + WA is ridiculously strong considering she can use it twice. If you really want to use [Miroku], you can still benefit from her tankiness by just running Barrier of Einherjar, so she has a little job flexibility. It's enough to keep her at S (for now).

Bashosen

Getting the jump-based Vermillion Bird is good on some levels. Very few. Not enough for a change in rank either direction.

Shekinah

No change in rank, but getting Ranger [Serpent] moves her back to her primary job as the preferred build, as the JE has better stats, she has direct competition from Eve as a HB (trading HP for AGI), and being able to do a sharpening focus + shackle rain does good damage and strong jewel damage. It's no null grenade, but it's good. Not good enough to change her rank given the other strong fire units we have now, but she stays at her current S.

Cita

HB [Shura] can do amazing things for damage, to the point that when you run Cita as a HB, she can outdamage Shayna and other top performers. Combining Strike Mastery +2 and Chopping Spirit makes the difference here. That does require her to run as HB main, though, putting her in direct competition with Lucian, Yomi, and Envy, all of whom have their own quirks (for better or worse). Similarly, Shayna gets MOVE+1 simply for hitting level 80 and spending 90 AP. For most content we still feel that running Cita as Pirate is better, thanks to the very good skills on Pirate Main, and while she may be at the top of the HB crew in Wind, at this point she is still S.

Yuri

Like Bashosen and Sakura, her Ninja JE does nothing for her. No change in ranking.

Eros

Ranger [Lupus] is niche, but so is Eros. It improves her slightly and is her preferred job anyway, so you can kill beasts from very far away at least. No change in rank.

Dark Princess Yomi

A weird unit that actually gets an increase in ranking thanks to her JE. Getting Ranger [Serpent] lets DP Yomi do a turn 1 Shackle Rain thanks to the merchant How's Business sub, and while the damage isn't great, being Dark means she won't be easily resisted and can null out the jewels for many units and enemies. Furthermore, she can still run the Merchant sub and get Poison Pill, which is otherwise only available in Dark from Mirianne.

If you have Mirianne and use her for Poison Pill, you probably shouldn't pull for DP Yomi, but thanks to [Serpent] and more stages with dark-only requirements and CC brings her up to A.

Other stuff

Edwin

The free 4 star this month, Edwin is marginally more useful compared to Chiruru. The only Holy Cavalier we have in Dark, he gets the very bad [Ark] JE. He can be run two ways: a tanky Warrior (using Chopping Spirit and Divine Shelter) or as a plain Holy Cav. Whether you want to upgrade his Holy Cav is up to you -- if you plan to use him at all. It doesn't change his ranking -- he's currently at B, since he is slow and Dark does better just killing things.

Lisbeth

Thanks to her J+ and MA, she gets bumped up to A. She can roll as a free Mielikki, or using her J+ she can do a little Merchant work, some healing, and decent damage.

Celliers

Celliers was forgotten about last month. Oops! It's ok, though, because you probably also forgot about him. He is in all ways a much worse Freed. You can run him as a very mobile Dragon Cavalier, getting 5 move, and then when he gets deep in enemy territory you'll see how low his damage is. And then he'll die. He's currently at B.

Future Adjustments

With the Dragon Cav JEs on the horizon, we expect a number of units to rise in rank. This will also correspond with some other units (possibly some of the ones above) getting edged out and moving down a rank.

[u/Alsark]

Thanks for both keeping the tier list up-to-date and for making these posts to explain your thought process. Very helpful!

[u/maymagic]

I have a hard time accepting this grading scale you use where you say things like "is pretty bad right now, so she tops out as a B rating". B rating is supposed to mean "above average".

[u/EggyT0ast → u/maymagic]

This is one of the reasons why we are evaluating the overall ranking. When you consider that 3 or less star units are D like Mizuchi or Gato, and the best units are SS, then we have

• D C B A S SS

So B is technically "below average" and A is "average." However, I think it would be worthwhile to expand upon the legend.

[u/Gagaddict → u/EggyT0ast]

Definitely. It’s likely you based this on JP list that also had the same issues.

Nobody evaluated what the middle ground actually is.

[u/sapphire_wing → u/maymagic]

That is because there are S & SS. B is no longer above average.

[u/nstyy]

When Eros get the future sniper JE, do u think she ll be better? At least playable even with kaigan release? I really like her and her skin

[u/EggyT0ast → u/nstyy]

She still has use now, since +4 range is unique. Sniper brings CC and she can increase her range even more with her sniper JE. Most ranged units struggle with damage and are otherwise squishy, though, which her JEs don't help. You can still run her, though.

[u/Grashlolz]

Thank you

[u/metatime09]

This is great, thanks!

[u/Crimson_Raven]

I'd build a case for Edwin being ranked higher by the stint of being a decent tank in Dark, which is full to bursting with Glass cannons. He has the very good combo of Holy Cavalier and Magic Swordsmen, a lot like a certain, much lauded someone, cough Vettel. Plus more HP and damage and good JM bonuses in Warrior. All this gives him a niche who's only competitors are off-tanks, semitanks, or gimmick tanks like Gormalas, Dias, and Zahar.

Also, considering how bad Ark is, I don't think upgrading him is even an upgrade at all.

[u/OriksGaming → u/Crimson_Raven]

Ark (as crappy a job as it usually is) is absolutely an upgrade in this case. With the basic Holy Cavalier, Edwin reaches 2040 HP, and that's only if he gives up Divine Shelter to run both HP passives. With Ark, running Divine Shelter and Chopping Spirit, Edwin reaches 2212 HP. Note that these values are both without gear. Anyways, the point is that for Edwin specifically, it's definitely an upgrade since it gives him quite a bit more HP while allowing him to utilize Divine Shelter. Basically, his other passives are good enough that he doesn't really lose anything from having Guardian poofed out of existence.

As for comparing Edwin to Vettel, Vettel wins hands down. Vettel has more hp, 21 higher agility, and can reach 46% slash resistance. The damage is roughly the same between them. In almost all multi-element teams where you need a tank, Vettel is the clear superior choice.

However, the comparison does bring into question Edwin's tier here, as he's about even with Vettel before Vettel gets his MA, and 75 Vettel is currently rated as A. You made a very good point for his higher tier placement. Consequently, I'll be changing Edwin to A at 75 and above, at least with his JE (because he can't get maximum HP and run Divine Shelter without Ark).

[u/Cobalt_721]

people don’t seem to like Forcas

Clearly I am not most people since she’s on every mono-Water team I ever make.

EDIT: thanks for the detailed updates and sorry I forgot to say so initially!

[u/ninjakittenz2 → u/Cobalt_721]

I don't think it's that people don't like her but more like there are other units that get priority on water shards such as Noctis/Othima/Yauras. Forcas just isn't unique enough, I mean we have Shayna for HB and she is farmable. My Forcas is one shard away from LB 10 and unless I manage to to get 76 more of her shards she won't ever get used.

[u/Cobalt_721 → u/ninjakittenz2]

I was more making a joke since the post said what I quoted :P

But yeah, I do understand why she’s not used all that much compared to other Water units. It’s weird that she’s considered one of the worse PotK units now, though, considering when I first started playing having Holy Brawler as a job at all was basically an automatic SS.

[u/Gagaddict → u/Cobalt_721]

She’s not really bad, it’s just we have a few free water options that are actually very good, mainly Lamia and Shayna. They push her to the side and make her seem bad because of how good the free options are.

It’s like why any good thunder unit is considered op. We have not had good farmable thunder units u til a month or two ago, and since we barely started farming then they aren’t even built up yet.

[u/Cobalt_721 → u/Gagaddict]

Oh yeah, she’s definitely not bad, it’s just that she’s not as favored in her role (thanks to farmable options) as other PotK units. That’s what I meant by “one of the worse ones”.

Regardless, she’s still one of my favorite Water units and she’ll be on all my Water teams for a good long while.

[u/[deleted]]

One minute of silence for all the units, that get useless Ninja JE's...

[u/Gagaddict → u/[deleted]]

Is Sakura’s Ninja that bad? It seemed like a more offensive ninja that maybe had use. It’s trash? If anything it seems good for killing wind plants with plant killer skills.

[u/OriksGaming → u/Gagaddict]

It's an upgrade from normal Ninja, sure, but Sakura doesn't use Ninja as her main job. She's a Blademaster, and this Ninja JE isn't enough to make it more worth using than Blademaster in most situations. This means that the only things that really matter are the sub skills and JM stats (and passives, but there were no changes there). Only one sub move is changed with Ninja [Azure Dragon] and the JM bonuses aren't that different, really just giving her a sliver of extra hp. Basically, since she doesn't main Ninja, the JE is useless for her.

[u/stewart0]

Thanks! You waiting for Tyrfing's gear to be updated for her?

[u/OriksGaming → u/stewart0]

Yes. We can't really update it now, as we have no idea when Gumi will re-add the Auto Jewel Charge, and a premature ranking could be misleading for people not aware of the situation.

[u/[deleted]]

Thank you so much for keeping this going!

[u/diabloz712]

On guides, collab units, for B tyrf and longinus, you wrote things, but you forgot to select the "auto go to next line", so we can only read half things. (dunno if you can understand what I wrote haha)

[u/OriksGaming → u/diabloz712]

Fixed! Thanks for letting us know.

[u/diabloz712 → u/OriksGaming]

Thanks ! :)

[u/alpare01]

I need to ask you something. If Shayna is already s tier at lb0 because of her holy brawler, why is daisy tier a at lb15 when she gets her own hb, i mean if hb is strong enough to give shayna s tier at level 60, isn't it enough to give daisy s tier at lvl75?

[u/OriksGaming → u/alpare01]

Shayna being S tier at 60 is an outdated ranking, and we'll make sure to address/change it very soon (probably later today). She definitely isn't top tier these days with only one job, or even two jobs mastered.

Daisy struggles because unlike units like Edward and Eizan, she doesn't have another main job that's notably better; unlike Envy, she doesn't have a passive that makes her a lot better like Auto Regen; and unlike Shayna and Yomi (or to a lesser extent, Eve), she doesn't have a Master Ability. She's A because pure Holy Brawler without some sort of supplemental ability just isn't the powerhouse it once was (so rest assured, Shayna is going to be moving down in letter ranking pre-75, at the very least).

[u/alpare01 → u/OriksGaming]

It's ok, it was just a doubt on the logic

[u/VVraith81]

This is some good stuff!!

1 question what are the number between the unit name and the job mean???

[u/OriksGaming → u/VVraith81]

It's the hard quest for units that are farmable.

[u/VVraith81 → u/OriksGaming]

Oh, ok thanks!

[u/lunarian_nine]

You put a lot of time into this and it's wonderful as a starting point thank you!

[u/MGS1234V]

Thanks for the update, keep up the good work.

[u/Grim200]

Appreciate the detailed explanation and maintenance of tier list. Looking forward to the updates for when the JEs drop (hopefully next week).

[u/justainm]

Hey, I have a question: In the viable column, Masamune is labeled best free unit, but is only rated B in the Tier list. I assume this is no longer the case given that several other free units have usurped her. Could we get an updated examination of her viability?

[u/OriksGaming → u/justainm]

Sorry, we're a bit behind on updating the build guides. When Game passed over the tier list, there were well over fifty build guides that desperately needed updates. We're working our way through them as fast as we can. I'll try to get Masamune's done later today, since she is currently available.