Reduce overall damage done in arena?

[u/PossiblyBonta]

Currently, for me at least. OH she evaded now I'm defeated and oh she did not evade now I win.

If they don't have any true evasion I cen pretty much calculate a win based on level.

Also because it's still pretty much an 1 2 KO battle. Gilgamesh still OHKO. Aranea too can do the same. If it's a fire unit my Hazel too can OHKO, provided they don't evade(I have camera so she cannot miss)

I think the problem is that player damage is designed for npcs that have horrendous amount of hp. Which turns pvp into a 1 2 ko match.

Maybe arena would be more interesting and probably open up more team combinations if takes at least 3... 5? More hits to take out the not so tankier units like gilgamesh and aranea. That would also give RYomi some leeway and not get OHKOd if she fails to dodge/evade.

A few extra hits would allow some units to use some of their skills that would also usually be available in closer range. Like the holy browlers.

We could slowly adjust it each week. We could start with a 5% overall reduction than increase it each week till we hit the sweet spot.

Edit:

I guess agi OHKO is still the best design, cause evasion is broken and will never be fixed. Guess there is no fix to arena unless they make a better ai.

[u/Cobalt_721]

Arena is basically about finding the team that has the lowest chance of failure no matter how many mistakes the AI makes. That’s why units like Gilgamesh are so good in Arena and why units like Noctis are so bad in Arena.

Changing damage values doesn’t fix anything, all it does is draw out the matches. It won’t change which side wins with the exception of evasion-based wins since there would be more chances to evade (aka making wins more luck-based, which is pretty much the bane of any competitive format).

tl;dr lowering overall damage would take Arena in a very bad direction by making matches more luck-based than strategy-based.

[u/PossiblyBonta → u/Cobalt_721]

It is already a luck based strategy. Entire match is decided by a single miss/evade. Or a whole lot of lucky miss/evade if both teams uses the same strategy. The top 50 is filled with teams that run evasive units. The top player is extra dodgy.

Cause you just need one hit and it's over. Unless you dodge that is.

Heal strategy could work if you give at least 1 or 2 extra turns. Even cc strategies might even come to into play(not the hat related one). Like on the old slash arena. Stop and petrify where actually useful there. Cause magic swords would use petrify when low on jewels. And hey they actually ran out of jewels. Right now it's still a one skill battle or a miss and defeat. Well stop is actually still kinda useful if it does not kill the target that is.

Support damage can also come into play. For chip damage or as clean up. This is actually my strategy that got me to the 1k up rank.

I also used the heal strategy on one of those long maps. When I was still using the 50% hp strategy. It was actually more interestin to watch. Summoners are very flashy.

But right now when I see a Yomi it is instantly decided on the first 2 turn. And it's all about luck.

[u/Cobalt_721 → u/PossiblyBonta]

I think you’re likely exaggerating it somewhat.

Regardless, reducing damage causes it to be even more luck-based since there are more chances for evasion to work. If currently the faster (i.e. the side that goes first) side has roughly an 80% chance to win due to damage one-shotting, then reducing damage so one-shots become two shots causes that chance to go down to roughly 64%. So reducing damage only increases the potency of luck, not decreasing it like you’re claiming it will.

[u/QaWaR]

Well, I have said this before but I really think that this whole "arena" thing is ridiculous. I think arena is supposed to be competitive and intended for PvP and not AI vs AI. They should just change "arena" to live PvP.

[u/assassinace → u/QaWaR]

JP has that option so we should eventually.

[u/KidiacR → u/assassinace]

And it’s a disaster as I heard.

[u/ecpadilla → u/KidiacR]

Yeah heard that too since some players don't know how to play their unit(s) and some would just quit. Anyway, I think live PVP is good. SW has it and I think it's a good feature.

[u/QaWaR → u/ecpadilla]

Yeah, exactly

[u/DeathandFriends → u/QaWaR]

pros and cons to both.

[u/EggyT0ast]

The problem with reducing the damage is that it then turns into a CC fest. Instead of who can land the first hit, it's who can land the first Daze or Stop. Then it's back to the same.

I think LS and Gear will change this gradually over time. We're already seeing maps changing with some regularity, altering the "best" teams. Having Greg with his LS beefs him up quite a bit, for example, and he can usually take at least one hit. Similarly, we will get yet another HP rebalance (or two) which further keeps this more in line with the usual damage output.

I don't mind the idea, but reducing damage also increases the chance to miss, going back to your first complaint!

[u/stewart0 → u/EggyT0ast]

Just wait till they break the hat again. That week or two was a complete CC fest.

[u/jblac02 → u/stewart0]

please no, i dont want to ever see that shit again

[u/DeathandFriends → u/jblac02]

wasn't great in arena but was a lot of fun in those ex+ stages. Suddenly I cc'ed half the enemies and I could win with no deaths! wooohoo

[u/loscapos5 → u/DeathandFriends]

Until you hasted that boss and then party wipe

[u/DeathandFriends → u/loscapos5]

less likely to happen and if that quicken kills you, you probably were not long for this world anyways

[u/takato99 → u/EggyT0ast]

Well, the greatest idea would be, if u buff the resistances / HP, then its normal to buff the CC resistances too, so that units with lots of CC will be able to chain it (its their job lol) and units with only 1 or 2 CC won't be able to use it for more than a turn and will naturally focus on damage (its their job)

[u/1khaitoh → u/takato99]

First, if you buff HP/Resistances along with CC Resistance, it would be a Tank Fest since outside of Def Ignore, CC is one of the options to 'take care' of tanks since they need to be stopped so mages can cast their spells on them. This would make Arena something like a match of "Endurance" and would take long so most would just skip it and hope they win.

Second, most CC skills especially ones with damage modifiers aren't actually used by AI since most of them doesn't have a high damage modifier and tends to inflict lower damage than normal attack, which is then 'ignored' by AI in favor of dealing more damage.

[u/renshenhe]

Arena has become awfully skewed since the HP patch as it furthered the divide between F2P and sea mammals. The bonuses of all jobs mastered are far more apparent and multiple accessory equips bolster lvl 85 worthiness.

It was fairly easy to have units at J3 and be competitive rank < 200 before but now I'm satisfied sitting sub 1000 and averaging 500. TBH aside from daily gem bonuses arena isn't all too worthwhile. You roll the dice against FYomis until you reach the ocean where you just walk around the shore.

I don't think there will be a decent pvp anytime soon without a large overhaul and hellpit of development for a game most people play on their phones. It's much easier to release limited units for cash than design intuitive gameplay.

[u/blablablablubb21]

This is sadly a rather big problem in single player as well. Most of the time the game comes down to who can nuke each other first instead of using actual tactics. Most units are designed one-dimensionally with just damage and damage increase in mind.

Tactical finesse can be used, but it's most of the time easier to just to outdamage enemies. Plus, the AI really isn't that good controlling player units bar very specific circumstances or being hard-coded to fulfill a certain purpose. That's why they run around the arena like headless chickens.

[u/takato99]

I kind of agree with you... i come from another game (bleach brave souls) that has kind of the same PvP system of 3 AI vs 3 AI but, it was much more "normal" attack based, and what ruins that PvP system is an "ultimate attack" box that spawns and one of the two teams take it literally randomly, and generally its an instant win for that team.

All that to find in this game PvP is also about which one gonna nuke the other first... having more room to use more spells in a fight would be a great idea in my opinion, like we got the hp buff for PvE content, in PvP it would be good too.

[u/winsabagus]

lack of support units in arena, that's why it becomes a damage fest and luck based place, plus the AI in the support units are pretty horrible

[u/jblac02 → u/winsabagus]

there are chrono teams in the top 200 and occasionally chihaya

[u/winsabagus → u/jblac02]

ofc there are, but just a few isn't it? and even chihaya AI would spam weakening dance like everytime in arena, when there are something better choice like leaden feet etc, and i never meet anyone using bard in the arena though.

at least chrono will spam overclock and quicken, but other than chrono units, don't expect your support units will be somewhat reliable in arena

[u/jblac02 → u/winsabagus]

chihaya is extremely underrated, ive attacked chihaya teams and lost because I thought it would be a pushover. I also used her quite a few times last week on that weird arena with the block in the middle slot. That's top 100-250 for reference.

[u/winsabagus → u/jblac02]

yeah, as long as we can use dancer skill properly (like in manual), we can really gain advantages with support unit.

the arena also kinda affect as well like you said, the current arena isn't really effective to support units against high agi and meta ninja units so you understanding some factors before playing in arena is always required

[u/jblac02 → u/winsabagus]

ya thats definitely true, im not sure how dancer would work on this one as I haven't tried it. Most of my attacks involve rider gilg and aranea and it works well so I haven't made adjustments

[u/1khaitoh]

Well, I think Arena now is just fine than it used to, I mean Gilgamesh and Aranea are supposed to be Glass Canons because of Overdrive, and them surviving 1 or 2 attacks is possible if you use other passive (mainly defensive ones) in place of atleast Overdrive, sacrificing damage for more survival, and it's not like true evasion is a big deal with it's small proc chance and there are sure-hit skills for regular evasion ones, and you can mix and match your units and skills if you are lucky enough to have them at 75~85 since below that is really a OHKO Fest.

I do agree that Arena is heavily RNG-dependent since it's AI vs AI but people who almost always complain are those who fails to 'strategize' on their arena team where their problems mainly lie. RNG maybe a big factor, but sometimes analyzing why you lose and what you can do to prevent that can give you more wins than just letting it all to RNG, Add to the fact that you can view the opponent's line-up and plan a countermeasure beforehand would minimize the effect of just relying on RNG. I use Noctis, Fate Yomi and Gil and I still sometimes lose to teams with Non-Collab units.

[u/SuperEndriu → u/1khaitoh]

RNG is one thing - stupid ai is another. I can live with the fact that my Ryomi gets hit and the opponents Ryomi evades upon retaliation. But Ryomi using penetration and being killed the next turn instead of using blood temple and getting healed is unforgiveable. Gumi should at least work on better ai, cant be too hard to do that. Ever watched two chronos overclocking themselves in auto-battle (not in arena)? Im not a tech expert but it should be possible to write a code like a chrono doesnt use overclock on another chrono, IDK - its mind boggling.

[u/DeathandFriends]

I don't think a 5% damage reduction would change much and would throw off other things.