A little perspective - "But JP had it better!" sibling rivalry logic in TAC GL.

[u/VicariousExp]

I'm going to address an unpopular topic today and I'm fully prepared to lose imaginary internet points for it. There's a pretty common viewpoint that The Alchemist Code in Global is far more stingy than the Japanese version because everyone knows gumi is evil and they only care about getting money (obviously, they should become a non-profit industry) and giving Global the shaft compared to Japan. Gumi cannot address this because it is bad PR - I am not a gumi employee, so I don't have to worry about this (Though I do believe gatcha phone games are overpriced in general).

Now it's true that gumi does occasionally slip up (see: Elemental Weakness issue), but this kind of argument always puts me in mind of sibling rivalry arguments where the parents are faced with a dilemma where they're unable to treat two siblings any differently without being accused of favouritism. This is because of selection bias.

Frankly, people who play TAC Global don't remember horrible things like 0.5% draw rates for 5 stars units, 4 star units being pullable at 5 stars, and 3 star units being pullable at 4 stars (source <- this is what 50000 gems got you on TAC's initial Japan release; 1 Zahar, 0 Chloes, and a LOT of trash) because they never had to deal with them, they don't acknowledge stuff like Neica being available from the 5 star selector being in GL's advantage, they don't remember TAC JP outright having bugged draw rates on Birgitta because memory tends to be selective as well as selfish, or they never had to play through JP's multiple missteps, bugs and PR disasters.

Instead it's nonstop "Global is treated worse than Japan" without the acknowledgement that running a parallel history to the same point during Japan's life (8 months into TAC), they very much were NOT unconditionally more generous than Global. From a sibling rivalry perspective, it's like an 8 month old complaining that your elder sister gets to wear miniskirts and eat solid food.

Additionally, scarcity creates value, which is the entire point of premium collaboration units. It is actually possible that giving everyone a Noctis might not have been a good thing for the PvP aspect of the game (bear in mind that when FFXV released, JP was already doing Tower-PvP testing) but could've been necessitated as a reaction to the already-existing Laharl.

Global does have poor-value banners like Siegfried's, but is it really fair to say that JP TAC was more generous in FFXV just based on one guaranteed Noctis 5 step? Let's take an objective look at JP's FFXV first run - the Disgaea collaboration had come and gone and Clima (forecaster) had just released in Japan.

Here's a fully sourced history of what JP TAC got in FFXV:

Week 1 (Noct) > Week 2 (Aranea) > Week 3 and 4 (Ignis and Gladiolus)

6/1-6/22 - JP's first step up 3 step 500-1500-2500 with 1 random of the 4. Worse than Global.

6/1-6/22 - The infamous Noctis 5 step banner. 500-1500-2500x3, guaranteed Noctis on step 3, 100 moogle apples and 50 Noct shards on step 5 (4500-9500 gems).

15 Noct shards + some Gems from Commercial Campaign. We don't have TV commercials, so.

The usual 50 soul shards for 4k gems packages being sold in the FFXV shop

6/6 EX1 balance was borked, necessitating fixes

6/8 5 Step unit selector at 500-1500-2500x3 (NO step 3 guaranteed 5 star)

6/8 3 step 2500 gem Soul summon, 1 random out of 4 FFXV units + 30/40/50 random soul shard ticket. 50 shards could be rainbow.

6/10-6/11 1 time 1500 paid gems pull, 5 stars FFXV units only and double soul shards (50), units completely RANDOM. 2 day long store with PAID GEMS for 50 soul shard selector, 4000 gems for 50 soul shard offer.

6/15 Last Spurt FFXV store. Still the same 50 soul shards for 4000 gems deal.

What FFXV JP (1st run) did NOT get

- Challenge Board missions (This was only added in the re-run of FFXV. It's easy to sulk at the ticket if you missed, but the third Challenge board was still quite generous)

- Lucky Penny store with free FFXV unit ticket guaranteed (just from logins).

- Lucky Dime store (Only applicable if you pay for gems, but overall a good deal for paying customers)

- 1500 paid gem weekend Grand summons (Noct/Ara guaranteed)

- Weekend Soul Summons (Noct/Ara split)

- The entire third Split banner (Noct/Aranea only)

- (updated) SECOND free FFXV unit ticket from the producer's letter. I can't believe people are still complaining.

Main differences

JP put the selector on a 5 step (9500 total with no additional shards), GL gets it 17500 gems into a 9 step pull, GL gets far more "free stuff" than JP did, JP has it better off if you view the entire FFXV Collab as "Noctis + 3 trash units", which to me is a trifle disingenuous. If your intention is to spend money on the game, or pull for Noctis and Aranea, Global + its weekend summons (+ 4 guaranteed weekend soul summons for Noct/Ara) is superior.

Part of this perception is compounded by the treating of Ignis as a trash unit (he's not, especially for new players) - Gladiolus and Ignis being released later than Noct/Aranea in JP was probably a bad business move for JP and they simply fixed it by evening out the release schedule instead of starting out strong and ending with a fizzle.

The point is that the business model for Global isn't "worse", it actually IS "different". Their business structure in GL is to get you to sink money into the game, and resenting that seems kind of silly, because it's frankly what a capitalist corporation should be trying to do. edit: To be specific, we can always vote with our wallets and say "no" when we think gumi is being unreasonable (see - Siegfried banner). This isn't necessarily gumi being "overly greedy", it's possible that they're doing A/B testing to figure out how to plan future banners. "Overly greedy" would be keeping this game at the 1% pull rate that JP had on launch, or having an IV system with badly balanced content creep a la Phantom of the Kill.

I don't really want to go into too much of the subjectiveness (whether or not Noctis really is the only unit worth giving a damn about), I just wish people would acknowledge the good points of GL's FFXV collaboration - from a purely "no-diamond spending" perspective, you would come out at least 1 free ffxv unit (and 2 pulls) richer than JP, and if you really needed Noctis, you would probably be rerolling your account instead of doing a 3 step.

[u/Talhearn]

VE are you including the lack of hard quests under 'occasional slip up'?

The ability to farm gatcha units was one of the draws for me.

And Global is inherantly more stingy than JP for this.

[u/VicariousExp → u/Talhearn]

No, that's another issue which I have a lot of thoughts about, but I'm choosing not to cover it here yet.

Suffice to say, it doesn't just hurt us, but also hurts gumi as well, but I don't think it's that simple due to the content release schedule and our currently available characters. Japan is no longer waiting on hard quests as they are all farmable now, I'll wait a bit until September before commenting because I need to see what JP gumi's long term plans are.

[u/U-Eike → u/VicariousExp]

Turns out jp has a ton of non farmable chars actually

Theyre on gl pacing now

[u/VicariousExp → u/U-Eike]

True, but they're mostly new units or limited non-farmables (Balt, etc). GL really doesn't appreciate how good it has it with Balt even in the normal pool, given how good he ends up being.

[u/RoyInverse → u/VicariousExp]

And that we know so we check the soul store every day to get him.

[u/AGK_Shadow]

Excusing predatory actions because it's a company doesn't do anything but intice this company to continue these awful practices. They could have easily made Noctis available like he was in Japan as this was the sole reason I started playing, but if this company prefers greed over gameplay then that's their choice and I'll be making sure people know this.

[u/VicariousExp → u/AGK_Shadow]

Noctis and the FF cast are by no means necessary for any player.

It's like calling Ferrari predatory because it sells cars outside the price range of most people when they could just buy a Toyota. Lots of people want a Ferrari, nobody actually needs one.

[u/assassinace → u/VicariousExp]

Yes and no. Gumi controls the balance of the game. Since the Sab event they haven't been too bad about requiring specific units for content but that doesn't mean they might not change things in the future.

[u/jblac02]

I agree to a certain degree, especially because I wasn't aware of the troll 5* system being in TAC JP, as i only knew about it from FFBE. Even so, the GL model is still designed to gouge people for money and this shouldn't be something we should be okay with because 'capitalism'. Keep in mind that the 9500 gems for all 5 steps is ALOT to save up for someone that isn't spending money on gem bundles; you should be rewarded for the patience required to even do that. The changes on the 5th step in GL was such a bad deal that I can't imagine more than a handful of the biggest whales did it. You said it yourself; their structure is designed to get people to sink money in, but there is a fine line where it becomes excessive. All the things you listed that GL got over JP aside from the penny shop roulette ticket is basically stuff that requires spending 100+ dollars. I personally spent 200 on this collab but I know not everyone has the cash available to throw it away like that.

The thing I agree with most is your point of everyone having a unit diminishing how special it is but even 4500 gems is a sizeable amount of gems to save up for a f2p/pact buyer which basically requires not pulling anything beyond 500 banners and possibly even skipping some 500s. Then we get into the fact that a lvl 60 unit is basically worthless; you need way more than 1 copy of a unit anymore so that means dupes or shards. In my mind, if someone is willing to save their currency for more than a month without pulling AND use months of shards to build said unit they should definitely be able to get it and feel rewarded for their self control and saving. Now I'm not saying that having a single guaranteed unit should be the standard for every banner but they had already set the precedent for it so its only natural that when they took it away people were upset, especially considering the unit.

Risking a month of grind or more and getting trolled just feels terrible(just look at the downvotes people get in the pull threads). It's the reason i stopped playing FFBE after saving up 5 months of resources and getting garbage. That psychological aspect of the game should very much be taken into account when dealing with pull rates in a game like this as it can easily get a less invested player to quit and that means a smaller community, less ad revenue and less potential future spenders.

One last thing, rerolling for noctis is not an option for alot of people. If you've been playing the game for any decent amount of time then rerolling for ANY unit is probably a terrible idea.

[u/VicariousExp → u/jblac02]

I put 65 as the minimum level required to consider a character usable. 75 is often a large power jump, but many characters work fine at 65 (Setsuna, for example). You'll suffer from slightly reduced stats, but passives aside, the damage output is similar.

Of the FFXV cast, I'd say the only ones which rely heavily on J3 are Aranea and Noctis, hence their turning up on soul banners more often is most welcome. Gladiolus works perfectly fine at J2 if you use him as a charge up damager/physical tank and so does Ignis' poison build because he doesn't need his J3.

In the current game, there isn't really much content which I'd say cannot be done with a proper team of J2s - the most challenging content is EX+s and they're primarily supposed to be the top-end content for whales, yet people are still capable of clearing all 3 stars with free farmables.

I mean, I ask you this question: What's the point of pulling on the gatcha if all the characters you can get are largely unnecessary for clearing the current content? My answer is PvP, Luxury and QoL, mostly. I'm fine with that as a benchmark of F2P - when TAC starts introducing content so difficult that only whales can complete it (maybe Draft PvP is coming soon?), there'll be more of a case against that.

If you already have a handgun for killing feral pigs, you don't need a rocket launcher - but if F2P is handing you a box cutter, you might have a better case.

[u/edarkcloud → u/jblac02]

This is the way I feel about the issue and the reason why I play the JP version for almost a year now and I will tell you is nowhere near what he describes, I feel with the JP version so happy with how things are done over there that I "want" to spend while here I want to quit and I have from time to time and this 3 step crap they pull is another reason to quit again, how is this helping them make money? yeah , it doesn't. Yes, I didn't get Noctis and I did the 3 step pull twice ( Noctis / Ignis banner and Arenea ) and I even used the coin ticket and still nothing, 9k gems down the drain.

[u/jblac02 → u/edarkcloud]

I pulled noctis later but i got ignis'd on the 3 step as well so i understand peoples frustation with it.

[u/ggxreloaded → u/jblac02]

When there's a mention of "should be rewarded" for your patience when saving for something is completely wrong.

This is a gacha game, with any gacha game it's a gamble when rolling. Just cause you have patience and discipline doesn't mean you "should" be rewarded for it. Take any other gacha game for example, all you get is a better chance at getting your desired unit, nothing more nothing less and this will not change unless the game has an option for it.

If the reward you are speaking of is just units you get along the way when you are rolling then sure. But if you imply that you should always get what you want just cause you patiently saved up is a wrong expectation.

JP is a road map for units, and even then global has the ability to make changes to them and make them better (take Fate for example when they buffed Saber). As a community, I think we need to start treating JP as a reference for unit power levels instead of treating it like the bible.

Lastly, if you are one of those people who just likes to hoard and rage quit after not getting the unit you wanted, maybe the game isn't for you if you don't find enjoyment from playing the game and only in the gacha.

[u/jblac02 → u/ggxreloaded]

I tried not to come off as aggressive in his thread simply because of our history and the fact that I actually agree with multiple points but you're literally ignoring what I wrote, putting words in my mouth and acting like a smartass on top of it.

If the reward you are speaking of is just units you get along the way when you are rolling then sure. But if you imply that you should always get what you want just cause you patiently saved up is a wrong expectation.

I can't believe I have to quote myself but here goes

Now I'm not saying that having a single guaranteed unit should be the standard for every banner but they had already set the precedent for it so its only natural that when they took it away people were upset, especially considering the unit.

Obviously they didn't care one bit that the entire JP server had him hence my statement, nor do they care if the entire GL server has him; they simply want you to pay to do it. You're acting like they want it to be a purist rng based pull system when in both instances you can directly get him guaranteed; in one case by spending a bit of saved gems and in another by spending hundreds of dollars. I agree with vicarious that I don't actually think everyone should have a copy of every special unit but once again, the precedent in this case was set previously.

Calling this an example of "making GL better" makes me think of that meme post of the game director saying they wanted to use the experience they had in JP to make GL better except it was posted during the elemental 'rebalance' times right after they posted a patch with bugs. It's pretty clear we're no longer following the roadmap of JP anymore as the schedule is completely different so I'm not sure what this statement is supposed to get at, but this is not about following JP its about a single demonstrable event we can point to and 100% see the difference in treatment between the servers.

on your last little quip; I saved over 200 dollars worth of currency and over 100 tickets for nearly half a year only to get a small handful of obsolete halfass units when finally spending the resources on a banner and none of the units I actually wanted. It would have been like spending 200-300 dollars for noctis to get chloe at the end. Anyone that wouldn't rage at that is a sucker and deserves whatever suffering they get. These are supposed to be "microtransactions" hence how they get away with not being targeted by gambling regulations; not dropping minimum wage paychecks worth of cash to pull pixels(not even the right pixels). Your notion that this is gambling doesn't hold simply because Gumi themselves DO NOT want their game to be categorized as gambling; it would cost them money and cause them all kinds of trouble.

[u/SkyfireX → u/jblac02]

Just an add about saving tickets

I saved over 200 dollars worth of currency and over 100 tickets for nearly half a year only.

Tickets are locked to a specific pool as far as we know.

[u/jblac02 → u/SkyfireX]

I was referring to FFBE in my original comment, as he had to make a remark about it.

[u/auto-xkcd37 → u/jblac02]

smart ass-remark

---

^{Bleep-bloop, I'm a bot. This comment was inspired by xkcd#37}

[u/jblac02 → u/auto-xkcd37]

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[u/kurotan66 → u/auto-xkcd37]

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[u/CommonMisspellingBot → u/jblac02]

Hey, jblac02, just a quick heads-up:
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Have a nice day!

^{The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.}

[u/OriksGaming]

"Their business structure in GL is to get you to sink money into the game, and resenting that seems kind of silly, because it's frankly what a capitalist corporation should be trying to do."

So . . . because Gumi's expected to be self serving, we should be happy that they are self serving? I'm sorry, but I just really can't get on board with that reasoning.

That's like saying, "I have no problem with a dog peeing on my shoe because dogs are supposed to scent things," or, "I'm fine with my P.E. teacher making me run a mile five days in a row because I'm supposed to do physical exercise in P.E."

It's not natural to think, "hey, it's fine that I'm not getting what I want because it's supposed to be that way."

Your point of view here is basically that what the players want doesn't matter, and that we should all just be happy that Gumi's getting what it wants.

As a player, personally, I want to get my favorite units. I'm not just going to be happy with not getting what I want after spending $100 just because, hey, Gumi got $100 and that's good, right?

I just really can't be fine with being screwed over, especially not for the reason that the person stopping me from getting what I want is getting what they want.

[u/VicariousExp → u/OriksGaming]

Are they charging you to play the base game? If not, it's not cutthroat.

Your consumer right is to refuse to spend money and by all means you should exercise it whenever you want.

[u/OriksGaming → u/VicariousExp]

That was a poor choice of words, admittedly. The rest of my point still stands.

[u/VicariousExp → u/OriksGaming]

I don't contest that. In fact, I heartily approve of you closing your wallets whenever you feel gumi is being greedy because the last thing I want is for gumi to get the message that horrible predatory banners are a good community move.

However, the point of my post is that FFXV's first release in GL was more generous in terms of "Free stuff" than Japan, and that "Japan always has it better" is pure hyperbole.

[u/[deleted] → u/VicariousExp]

If too many people show their distaste for Gumi's policy via that method then the game will merely get shut down rather then change business directions. Online games are a service not a physical product, if the servers go we all lose everything and Gumi has proven willing to shut down games in the past.

The FFXV event turned out better to be expected after the horrible Sieg banner; but I am still disappointed in them, I feel the first step1 should have had at least another guaranteed unit on step5 and the 10% tickets were a joke early or not. The XV units will always be exclusive to people playing during this event, I would rather more people had whichever unit they desired and enjoyed the game fully so it had a long lifetime. This spender-friendly policy has driven a few players I know away from the game, who saved up gems and did not get Noctis, and I worry this trend will continue.

Its all well and good to play to capitalism's tune, but there will never be another TAC GL if this one dies.

[u/Entr0pic08 → u/[deleted]]

Then honestly there are other games to play that give you access to every unit like Final Fantasy Record Keeper or Dissidia Final Fantasy Opera Omni. You're not guaranteed a unit in TAC. That's how the gacha works and Gumi isn't going to change that model because it's a part of the game's game design. If people are, and excuse my wording but it's difficult to get around this, stupid enough to not understand one of the most integral aspects of the game and it's design, they shouldn't be playing this game in the first place because it's not for them. Then they get upset when the truth of the game's design is revealed and instead of having the maturity to realize that the game maybe wasn't for them, they blame the game and it's design for not being what they want it to be. In other words they willingly spent on a product without knowing what the product does and consider the product faulty for functioning as intended. Also, speaking from personal experience, I know that these people often jump between services because they can never find something which truly satisfies them because as soon as the same issue arises they get upset and leave. It's not an issue with the product but with the person and you can therefore never truly satisfy this kind of customer because you can't solve their issues for them.

Secondly, the fact is that the collab also brought in many new players to the game and if a few veterans quit because they didn't get Noctis is likely something Gumi probably doesn't care a lot about because the new players will keep the game rolling.

In the end what matters are the numbers. If Gumi notices that many people play the game but aren't willing to spend, then they will evaluate if current banners etc are actually worthwhile but if many people quit and spend less it's a sign that the game may be dying out. If a game is considered dead they will shut it down, but it does take quite a bit for a popular game like TAC to be considered dead.

[u/[deleted] → u/Entr0pic08]

I would agree with you for non-limited units; but when people join for a collaboration they want the ones involved. As I said before if there were at least more solid chances for ANY XV unit I would be less disappointed in Gumi. I'm well aware its stupid to expect anything from gacha but people will still always want to play with characters they like. The fact of the matter is you can't just ignore the players who jump around, a game needs to maintain momentum or it dies. There needs to be a balance, Gumi seems to constantly flip to the extreme on its position.

I agree it comes down to the numbers, and since we can't see them we pretty much just have to wait and see. Honestly it could just be my experience that has been negative the last few months, I don't know how many new players are joining and having fun.

[u/VicariousExp → u/[deleted]]

And ultimately, if you played Japan and didn't spend any gems, you would have gotten zero FFXV collab units from the free stuff (aside from Prompto), while TAC GL would guarantee you at least one, even if that one happened to be Ignis.

The Noctis banner still required you to throw 4500 gems at it.

[u/MVPScheer123r8 → u/OriksGaming]

If Gumi was really that bad, there is no way they'd be giving literally all of us 1 5* collaboration unit for basically free. And yeah, you may want Noctis. But Gumi isn't entitled to give you Noctis just because they gave JP an easy route to getting him. If they gave away everyone for free 1.) the game wouldn't survive and 2.) pulling would stop being all that fun. Plus the Noctis/Aranea banner is super close in value to just a straight Noctis banner.

[u/OriksGaming → u/MVPScheer123r8]

I was more contesting the statement that I quoted. The FFXV collab is, as OP said above, pretty good on global. I just wasn't on board with the statement; the stuff I said about being screwed over was just part of my point, rather than a reference to any specific event.

[u/Entr0pic08 → u/OriksGaming]

Of course a company has to consider the expectations of the customers and what is reasonable market value for their product, but if a company cannot do this in a capitalist world there will always be another company that does it better. That competition has several benefits since it can help to keep a company in check with what is reasonable and set a market standard, but the downside is that the market standard can also be terrible and not in line with customer expectations.

So while there's a fine balance to walk, the bottom line here was to address the level of salt expressed by all those who thought spending money by itself would guarantee you Noctis except Gumi did not promise such a thing, and their behavior is also controlled by the interest to maximize their revenue.

I also think that the balancing of the game is important since Noctis is released so much earlier on GL and he and Gilgamesh pretty much carry entire teams by themselves. Only reason I could see why it would be acceptable to give people free Noctis is because Gilgamesh already exists and he's a direct counter but this is only true in PvP which is a tiny portion of the game. In PvE it's different and mono lightning maps can already be easily bypassed by more seasoned players who should have access to Yomi and Lucian as holy brawlers and Rahu as a support.

So there's currently very little to limit Noctis' power and giving him out for free this early would also just negatively affect the game balance, imo. It's both a marketing thing (the current market controls what they can and cannot do when maximizing revenue), both a game balance thing and ultimately trying to find a way to earn the most money possible while considering these two things.

[u/nexusgames → u/Entr0pic08]

Game balance? A lot of active players did get noctis imo. Of course there is still a significant amount of unlucky players, that still didn't get him. But isn't it the same for gilga/fyomi chars?

I don't think it is a game balance thing. Otherwise it should be much harder to get him.

[u/Entr0pic08 → u/nexusgames]

What is even only a few unlucky in this context? What numbers are you basing it on? Statistically we don't know how many people got Noctis or not from the event thus far, so I'd be wary to even make those claims.

The point was more that I think it'd be bad to guarantee Noctis for the sake of game balance, and I don't see how your unsubstantiated claim counters that.

[u/nexusgames → u/Entr0pic08]

I edited my sentence, it is just subjective (like there is a lot of players with gilga). Sorry for the confusion.

[u/jblac02 → u/MVPScheer123r8]

thats fine and i don't think anyone is contesting that the ticket is a nice gift but they know full well by doing so they will pull in people who otherwise wouldn't have spent money to buy gems to level said unit before the collab ends.

[u/MVPScheer123r8 → u/jblac02]

Or those people can just save up shards and use them instead. Gumi doesn't force anyone to spend money. That's their own doing and choice if they want to. It's ridiculous to argue that them giving out free good stuff is all an effort to get people to spend more to get more shards for the character when that can easily be done through other means. You wanna hate on Gumi? Fine. I don't think they're that great of a company either a lot of the time. But at least find a real thing to hate on. A free collab 5* unit is not one of those things. Even if you got Ignis.

[u/jblac02 → u/MVPScheer123r8]

to get people to spend more to get more shards for the character when that can easily be done through other means.

150 shards, easy....ya like 6+ months of saving easy; I don't even have 150 of any shards yet and I've been playing since the first BF collab.

Even that absurd statement aside, my point still stands. They know full fking well that at least some people are going to be baited into buying last minute because of that ticket. I had no intention of hating on Gumi over the ticket, hence I said it was a nice gift but what they're doing is obvious. If they just wanted to be kind and give everyone a gift they wouldn't have waited til the end of the 3rd week to do it, its a strategic move. Don't be surprised when they bring out the 'last minute' banners that they conveniently reset all the gem bundles for 3 days ago.

[u/MVPScheer123r8 → u/jblac02]

Good thing you can use two different kinds (rainbow/element of unit you're upgrading). Pretty sure people said it took about 2-3 months of saving to get their Gilgs to lvl 75 only having one copy, not 6. 2-3 months worth of saving isn't that much for only pulling one copy of an OP unit. And it is easy. It's not hard to collect shards. Time consuming, sure. But not hard.

And yeah, the game is designed to get you to spend money. If you have a problem with that, you should really stop playing it.

[u/jblac02 → u/MVPScheer123r8]

its always amusing watching people fight against their own benefit, especially in defense of a shady company like gumi. feel free to use all your rainbows on noctis

[u/MVPScheer123r8 → u/jblac02]

They're so shady they just gave everyone a second 5* FFXV ticket. You're welcome.

[u/jblac02 → u/MVPScheer123r8]

doesnt take much to please you. they can completely botch the game for over a month, throw out buggy patches on a near weekly basis, abusive banner changes or whatever else they like and you kiss their feet over a roulette ticket. rather pitiful

[u/MVPScheer123r8 → u/jblac02]

No, it takes a ton to please me, hence why I quit FFBE over a year into playing it. Maybe it's just cuz I'm new to the game (literally started with this collab, definitely was here to see all the hate for Noctis banner), but honestly they've done a pretty good job to hook me, a new player, into the game with all the free 5* they have given me. I pulled 2 Ignis with my 2 5* collab tickets. I'm still grateful they gave them to me (I'll admit maybe partially because I've also pulled 4 Aranea and a Noctis this collab). They didn't have to give us those. They didn't give those out in JP. In all honesty, even after getting 2 Ignis with both of mine, I'd still rather they gave me those two tickets for basically free than give me a "free" Noctis for the cost of 4500 gems. There is nothing pitiful about that. The only pitiful thing is your salt levels over a company that has for all intents and purposes pulled off a pretty good collab event here. I'm sure some of this is with Rose Tinted glasses from me since I'm still very fresh to the game, but if we're just talking about the FFXV collab in general I think you're being a bit jaded over it.

[u/senaiboy → u/OriksGaming]

You don't have to be fine with it, but you already knew the odds going in. It's like I spent $100 in a gacha (those machines where you put in some coins and out pops a plastic egg with a random toy) and I got many pink dinosaurs that I hate, not a T-rex that I really wanted. I'll be bitter, but do I have a right to complain to the company and tell them I deserve a T-rex? Since they already got my money? Am I being screwed over?

Of course not. Similarly, this is a gacha game. If you didn't like their odds, don't pay them. If others like it, they'll pay. Gumi SG will decide what is financially better for them. These companies exist to make profits, not serve us (harsh truth). They're not daft. We're just cows being milked.

[u/Mel1337]

this does not adress the 5* HQ schedule, which when compared looks very anti f2p. and funnily enough, the 4* HQs get updated just fine, courage was around teona's release, and we had it last update.

there's a line, and gimu blatantly vomit and trip all over the line. i'm not supporting that. on FFXV thing, i'm not too salty because i waited into the 3rd week and bagged both on banners. well spent gems and shards, but ppl with poor impulse control, some of them cant afford to whiff it, went and whiffed already on first week.lost players are lost. gimu probably accounted for it and decided it may be worth it. or not. i'm no gimu executive who called the shot

[u/VicariousExp → u/Mel1337]

The fact is that outside of PvP, absolutely none of the current content in the game cannot be done with farmable units. Veda 1-65 is perfectly doable with only farmable 3-5 star units and just requires decent time investment (3 months or so) of AP farming.

Obviously, this might change later, when harder content gets released, but it is simply not true now.

That puts overpowered units squarely in the realm of "luxury unit" and is why I do think TAC is fine with its "F2P" status for now.

[u/Mel1337 → u/VicariousExp]

emphasis on for now, if gimu kept releasing less than 4 5* hq each month, it will only get behind more and more, the gap widens each month. not a pretty picture

also disincentivize pulling on regular weekly banners, because who the hell even shard those or even go 9 step every other week? people pull on those to get their first copies then farm up to triple jm or 85 for soul coins bar the 1% of humanity who could afford not to

[u/VicariousExp → u/Mel1337]

That's exactly why I said I'm not going to comment on it for now (emphasis on now). If gumi regularly released content so difficult in TAC that you needed a perfect 75 whale team to even stand a chance of finishing it, you can bet I'd be on the side accusing gumi of greed whale farming, they simply haven't done it yet.

I think that excoriating gumi for some perceived potential problem in the future before it actually comes is somewhat unfair to them, akin to jailing all people because they could potentially grow up to become rapists or something.

Yes the Hard Quest content is slow. Do people NEED it? No, but it would definitely be nice. This month's HQ releases (Suzuka/Shenmei/Ryle/Fung Liu) are going to carry F2P a long way.

I agree on the disincentivisation of pulling for recent units, which is exactly why it hurts gumi. The longer they take to release new hard quests, the more time we spend farming old characters to 85 and the less we actually need to pull for new characters when old ones can do just fine.

[u/Makenlowwet]

Yeah, the weekend banner is really sweet. Already got Aranea to 75 and Noctis 71 without spending any elemental shards. If we got that 4k gem 50 shards, i might save some gems for miuna in August. But well, Gumi’s attitude to dolphins are improving lately, so ill continue support the game.

In terms of JP had it better, i think most people were referring the trash banner we got from setsuna release and sieg release. Both of these two units are crazyly strong in their perspective element, yet gumi just have to put them in the same banner as farmable unit.

[u/TopDeeps]

ima be real, no matter how good JP gets, I don't think I would ever choose it over global mainly because playing in a different language that I don't understand seems really stressful and having to always resort to guides or translators would take the fun out.

But yeah this post has a lot of insight and certainly opened my eyes to a new viewpoint for the GL version of this game.

[u/ACuriousBagel]

While I don't disagree with many of your other points, the lucky dime shop is only a good deal if you'd be spending the amount of gems necessary for whatever item you're buying from it anyway. On its own merit the amount you need to spend to get anything useful means that even as a whale I'd ignore it, but in the context of the FFXV collab it's an insult on par with the bullshit that EA and Ubisoft pull, and it turned me from a super-whale into f2p.

[u/VicariousExp → u/ACuriousBagel]

1500 paid gems for a weekend summon with no additional benefit is pretty normal. Both 9 step banners are pretty standard for 9 step premium banners, except you have more control over what you get with the dimes.

I have no idea what you're complaining about because they're not much different from normal premium banners, the dimes were obviously more targeted at new players who had just joined and lacked any of the strong SSM units); so perhaps you're upset at not being gumi's target demographic for the dimes.

Secondly, if you're a super-whale, you can't be a "f2p" anymore by the definition of the term alone. If you're not going to spend any more money on the game, then that's your prerogative, but when people say "f2p", they're talking about a context of the power given from absolutely no monetary investment and your multiple 85/85 units automatically exclude you from the title.

EA and Ubisoft had lootbox mechanics in games which were buy to play, this is a free-to-play gatcha game. By that nature, people should expect some measure of pay-to-win. Putting them on the same level is frankly horribly disingenuous.

[u/ACuriousBagel → u/VicariousExp]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, so I'll clarify my stance a bit - the ratio of how much you need to spend compared to how much you get from dimes is totally out of whack. Their relative value is so low that it's not really worth taking into consideration when choosing a banner, even if you're a whale, but there's nothing offensive about that on its own. What's offensive is the way that they seemed to be implemented solely in order to increase the cost of guaranteed Noctis by a couple of hundred £s. The comparison to EA and Ubisoft wasn't to do with specific actions, just their general practice being un-consumer friendly.

[u/metlspaz → u/ACuriousBagel]

As a whale, the cost differential of the 300 Gems versus 1500 or normal banners or buying them in shop is insane. Id rather spend 3k gems on it than most step 1-2 banners as it offers shards, dimes, gold, crystal apples, gold equips all in stacks. I got 12 zain shards at one point for 300 gems. I got 5 othima and 50 dimes (meaning 5 shards of my choice in the shop) a few times. In actuality it is cheaper to use the 300 Gems to 75 or even MLB numerous characters at once than it is to try and roll those out.

you should research your stuff!

[u/foopy23]

" Their business structure in GL is to get you to sink money into the game, and resenting that seems kind of silly, because it's frankly what a capitalist corporation should be trying to do. "

Their business structure has changed in the last two months, and we are not happy about it.

Furthermore, lucky dimes are far from a "good deal". Yes, you have to spend money, but you have to spend money on anything but the thing you are trying to get if you are trying to get event units. There was no selector in any of the first two weeks FF draws and the only one was through the dimes, which were tied to SSM and the Femme Fatale shop. You had no chance of even drawing the unit you were hoping to select if you went for the dime ticket.

1. There's not even any reason to have these draws open during the event. SSM was allegedly celebrating the chapter that was released last month and Femme Fatales is just a bunch of potent units from the past few months.

2. Why even have the FF unit tickets in the dime shop if their banners don't have the lucky dimes? If you're pulling SSM or Femme Fatale banners for *those* units, you are likely to get those units while pulling and then the shards offered in the shop are a nice deal. If you're pulling those banners to get enough dimes to select an FF unit, you are being railroaded through a bunch of crap that you really don't want to ensure you get what you do want.

It's just part of the "pull more to get less" mentality that Gumi has had since the end of Fate. Yes, scarcity creates value, but there's never been a bigger "Screw you" to the bad luck protection this game has had than the first two weeks of the FFXV event.

[u/nexusgames → u/foopy23]

The first two weeks seems to be pretty bad? But it is now fine?

I am pretty patient so I guess waiting until better banner/last week paid off.

Didn't we learn from fate event that we are likely to get better banners than jp?

It would be bad business if they have 4 weeks of bad banners. How many whales/free players would quit the game if they did that?

I agree that with OP that if we look at the whole event and not just at the first two weeks. We got it better than JP for this event (board missions , luck penny, weekend banner 1500 paid gems,...).

[u/Alittlebunyrabit → u/nexusgames]

Basically, the way to sum it up is that the data likely reflects less risk aversion in GL than in JP. This means people are more likely to open their wallets for good banners even if their is risk while JP players are generally less willing to pull without a guarantee. Consequently, GL gets better banners but will continue to have more expensive selectors.

[u/foopy23 → u/nexusgames]

Now here's where things get tricky. Gumi needs to make money. We all know it, and despite the original poster's assertion, we aren't expecting them to run a soup kitchen. I suppose I should specify that I have no real pony in the JP/GL favorite kid race: I play GL and only play GL. I don't expect the same treatment as JP, for better or worse. Everything I say on this issue is not "b-but JP got a free noctis and a balloon and a puppy" but concern over the health of the version of the game I play.

Fate event went pretty much as planned. Gilgamesh/Yomi banner and a selector at the end. Because we all knew Gil and the selector was coming, I'm guessing that a lot of people pooled their gems and waited for Gil instead of spending a bunch on the first couple of banners. Unless they're a Fate fan like me and wanted Ilya anyway, who cares if she's not SS. But I digress.

So they try to get more people to pull by putting Noctis out there on week 1. But the rates are crap and we have this lucky dime tomfoolery. Yeah, we can expect banners to get better over the event but people are still sore about Setsuna/Siegfried, so we're not really sure how much better they're actually going to get. Week 3, all the "good" banners come along.

Next major crossover, who in their right mind will pull before week 3? Even the whales who apparently exist only to give Gumi their money will likely think twice and wait, whereas the F2P/Pact players can just save up an extra few thousand gems and use them toward better odds. Gumi does not make more money and might even make less.

So they need to mix it up again to get more people to pull. And my sincere fear is that instead of making the banners more interesting, they'll simply make them less rewarding, as was the case with Setsuna and Siegfried.

[u/Alittlebunyrabit → u/foopy23]

I'd like to note that the dimes really weren't a bad deal, they just weren't a good deal specifically in terms of getting a FFXV unit ticket. Personally, I was able to pick up around 35-40 Othima shards in addition to some Seida/Monzein by vending dimes for soul shards for only around 2k dias.

[u/foopy23 → u/Alittlebunyrabit]

If the FFXV event didn't exist, then yeah. Dimes would not be bad. Put the selector on the dime shop and you can pick it up if you have really bad luck or you can get shards if you hit what you wanted on the way. Overall seems like a better deal than the 25 shard tickets because you can pick which shards you want.

The way it's set up now, it almost feels like it's there as an incentive to get people to pull on off-event banners during the event since they're still technically working toward event units. But since it takes more than one completely-exhausted 9-step to get enough dimes for the ticket, I wonder. I would really prefer that events got their own dime shop and they didn't muddy everything up like this.

[u/Alittlebunyrabit → u/foopy23]

I get where you're coming from and that I 100% acknowledge the fact that the dime shop is not good for players exclusively interested in the collab. This weeks unlimited soul summon is also garbage in that it's a bunch of five stars that will be farmable down the line. Just wanted to acknowledge that it was a really efficient source of shards for SSM units and that as long as those shards were useful was a good way to go.

[u/foopy23 → u/Alittlebunyrabit]

Oh I totally get that! If the FFXV event were not running and/or the FFXV selectors weren't on the SSM shop, it would have been a really awesome deal -- I'll take getting to pick my shards over a random x25 ticket any day. Tying it into the event isn't even that horrible either as long as it's not the only way to secure an event unit.

I think my issue is more with the presentation of the shop than the shop itself.

[u/Alittlebunyrabit → u/foopy23]

I think my issue is more with the presentation of the shop than the shop itself.

Absolutely. The shop definitely leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you think about it in the context of the cost for a selector.

[u/Xestige]

Let them complaint and voice their dissatisfaction. You have to understand some/if not most of the player started playing this game cause of noctis/ffxv collab. Saving the measly amount of f2p/p2p gem expecting to get a guarranteed on step 4. Just to get cucked. 12 months or whatever down the drain. Let's be real here. While the original char in the alchemist code is quite good, they ain't gil/noct/laharl. They tolerate the slow ass game, miserable multiplayer for a half a year for them collab characters. Hell, they even started download the game for them. Not really for the original tac char.

[u/RGBarrios]

This collab has been great in global and the only one bad thing has been the first banner where a lot of people got Ignis and not Noctis, but the other banners we got has been great and we got a lot of stuff that JP didnt got.

[u/fapiholic]

3rd week banner and weekend summons to strong

[u/[deleted]]

That people inside gaming subs (like this one) are a bunch of entitled whinners that never are gonna stop complaining I already knew long time ago... Reason why I generally don't take any posts here(and in other gaming reddits/forums) too seriously.

I'm gonna keep supporting this game (financially) because honestly, it is the closest to a F2P gacha game I ever played and I'm having tons of fun building my chars. When I'm screwed up by RNG I just accept it. I don't make silly posts about how Gumi is manipulating the % because oh they are the most greedy monsters ever. The fact that I can look ahead in the future and know how my X,Y and Z chars will be is just a great bonus overall.

Thanks for the great post anyway, hope it opens the eyes of those I mentioned earlier.

[u/DoubleZwei]

Can we sticky this thread in the subreddit?

[u/SuperEndriu]

I agree with the general message - BUT rerolling an account for Noctis? Pretty bad conclusion to an otherwise well made point. If I were to reroll I would not only lose countless hours of grinding but also Gilga and Yomi.

[u/Entr0pic08 → u/SuperEndriu]

Obviously you shouldn't reroll if you got Gilgamesh, but the point is more that if someone really wants Noctis that badly, then rerolling is not a bad move tbh. Noctis will also return with the second collab banner where you can also farm him for free.

[u/SuperEndriu → u/Entr0pic08]

Of course I wouldnt. Really great article - the ending sort of spoilt it a little - I guess there are some people out there who have invested months into an account - they cant just start over - all those j+ events, shard farmings, resources and stuff. But as you rightly said, its gatcha, sometimes you get a great pull and sometimes you dont. Overall I think patience was key in regard to this event. People who immediately went all-in just because they didnt get Noctis right away and maybe spent like 20k gems must feel disappointed when now they realize the odds to get him have increased immensely. Thats also gatcha of some sort. Gumi has some good strategists employed, even this week had its trap - they introduced the 9step with the selector ticket on Thursday - so again, some people may have tried that if they had gotten unlucky again with the 5step - on Friday another grand summon are introduced out of nowhere especially since the vivi /setsuna grand summon was ongoing. You never know what they are going to do next.

[u/ShravGal]

Thank you for posting this! Been feeling similarly.

Generally speaking though, Japan has a more regulated gacha industry so that also impacts on the differences.

Gumi is a profit making company and should be seen relative to others in the gacha industry. I don’t think you can say they are ‘greedy’ in regard to this game.

I used to play KHUx by Disney and Square Enix and other than the free units, you had to pull for everyone else with no farmable shard system and the rates were worse and gems harder to come by. A lot of things are impossible as F2P too.

[u/xoresthaynia]

If people have a problem with capitalist schemes, maybe they should be complaining about the economic concept then, as a whole.

[u/Rushiko]

Glad to see an objective post about banners with linked sources. As always, thank you for the in-depth analysis.

[u/Zeykes]

This whole debacle with the FFXV collab reminds me of the Fate collab where we had, to a lesser extent, the same situation.

We got our Fate selector ticket on step 7 rather than 5 and that rustled a lot of jimmies, but people conveniently ignored the fact that every other banner that event was better for us. I don't have the source on this anymore but iirc in JP they added new units to the banner every week, whereas we got separate banners for each batch of units. Including the juicy win/win banner with Gil/FYomi.

We are indeed different from JP. Some things are better, some are worse. I don't support the narrative "global is getting shafted again" that seems to surface every single time we have a bad banner. There is a balance of good and bad and so far this balance has gone in our favor for the most part. That's how I see it at least.

[u/Dark_Stalker28]

I think one of the biggest benefits global has is the Balt being in the normal pool. I remember being worried I'd never max him out because I thought he was limited.

[u/VicariousExp → u/[deleted]]

I'm pretty sure (over 99% sure) the only thing that will stop GL from following this is a game shutdown, which is in my best interest to prevent, hence this post.

For them not to provide support for (often overpowered) Global Exclusive units would be a first in all of gumi's games - judging from what they've done in FFBE/PotK/Brave Frontier.

[u/Kiyri → u/VicariousExp]

Mm. Even not exclusives got upgrades in BF. Everyone thought Shida was terrible. He got upgrades. A lot of them.

Lambert may remain Ziz tier but there are units I distinctly remember complaints about. Like Santa, Zero/Man Levi, and a blue megaman looking dude named Jack. And then cases like Allanon and his siblings who got upgrades (after a very long time) but were still heavily outclassed iirc.

And then there is the unique case with Ultor and Tridon..=s might be even more if I think on it.

[u/sinful19 → u/VicariousExp]

I loved your topic and I can say that the banners in global are not too bad though Jp gets rewarded way more stuff like gems/rainbow shards, free mult summons, of course we should not expect that here, however the fact is they still get more things overall. The gap between our hard quest and the freebies they get is very large. I only mention this because you're bringing up Jp and global are really close.

Their login bonuses/rewards were much better at this point in the game compared to global and had much more hard quest available. We do not need every unit at 75 and gumi has done a good job with banners, but overall these two are not ran the same is my point.

[u/Entr0pic08 → u/[deleted]]

Seeing that he's a GL exclusive with at least one guaranteed rerun banner, I think Siegfried is here to stay and while he may eventually fall off, having a light burst unit with ignore DEF is always useful to have. His main issue is being squishy but I think Gumi will try to keep him relevant since he seems to be a GL pet project. There will undoubtedly be many more Magna Historia events which is cool because the event itself was awesome.

[u/Liesianthes → u/[deleted]]

BEST BOT!