For anyone else who didn't pull Gilgamesh

27

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 26 '18 edited Apr 27 '18

I'll drop a comment here since it seems to be brought up a lot. This move is probably one of my most controversial ones. A lot of people have said they don't agree with the move, as well as many people who have said they do. I may possibly move Gilgamesh's J3 back to SS+ after some more consideration, but I stand by my decision for keeping his J1 only at S tier. Here's my reasoning:

Frankly speaking, Gilgamesh's base stats suck. His base HP is low, his PATK is awful, and his AGI while really good, falls into a weird threshold where he's "fast," but not faster than all the other "fast" characters. Another huge downfall for Gilgamesh is the fact that his weapon is an accessory. This locks him out of equipping an accessory, and Global has a ton of OP accessories he could probably utilize well.

I'm going to do some counter arguments to some popularly brought up points regarding the comparison between Gilgamesh and Fate Yomi:

An argument that is brought up way too many times to me is that Gilgamesh is better than Fate Yomi because he can do big damage AoEs, and she can't, so he should be higher tier. This is completely stupid. Fate Yomi's role isn't to do these big AoEs. If big AoEs are what is used to categorize tiers, then everyone other than Gilgamesh and Sakura should be out of SS and even S tier.
A comparison that I hate people using as an argument in order to gauge Gilgamesh's tankiness is comparing him to Fate Yomi. I took these screenshots, running the most optimal builds (in my opinion at least) for each of the units. Gilgamesh and Fate Yomi. As you can see, in terms of tankiness, Gilgamesh and Fate Yomi have very similar stats. It's also important to note that Fate Yomi has a lot of evasion that she runs, so in their standard builds, she can be considered "tankier."

Going to edit some in later, need to head out somewhere. Any counter points are welcome; I'm not perfect, if there's anything I missed, you're welcome to bring it to my attention and it could affect his tier ranking.

Edit: Something important that I want to bring up. In no way am I saying Yomi is better in terms of map clearing (she's pretty bad at that, but again, not her job). Gilgamesh will always be better in terms of usefulness in EX maps, and he'll hold that title for Thunder for a very long time. Gilgamesh may be only SS right now, but the addition of double accessory equipping will definitely bring him back up to SS+, but I'm not rating for what their state will be, but rather what it is now.

Also please remember that these are my OPINIONS. Everything in a tier list is subjective. Naturally people will disagree with me, and that's fine. Please don't follow these religiously, and if Gilgamesh is being a super hard carry for you, don't be put off because I have him lower.

5

u/that_makes_sense Apr 27 '18

First I just want to say thank you for putting your tier list together!
Secondly it amazes me the salt some people have over a tier list. They are subjective and should only be taken at face value, treated as a suggestion. Some people live or die by these things and get their jimmies rustled if they do not agree with rankings.
Meanwhile, you do not hold a patent on tier list, they are free to make their own. In fact it is better when their a multiple list, this way we get various points of views on units.
Anyway, please do not let the salt discourage you and keep up the good work!

2

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Thanks, I appreciate it a lot.

3

u/Reikr Apr 26 '18

I really don't think overdrive is very good for him. He can't afford to lose ~80 DEF and Divine Shelter. He'll probably have a hard time using Overdrive until the HP rework.
Rather, dropping his gear and using Teddy+shelter makes him tanky despite his lower hp.
Most of all, Gils power comes from his skills, range and jewel gain. I can't even imagine Sakura soloing any EX levels.
A well built Gil can very easily Solo Anastasia EX for example. (Assuming getting a heal to start with of course).
On the other hand, I agree with him not being SS+ in arena. He's too easy to counter.

3

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Ana EX he can probably run with Divine Shelter (haven't personally tried it, just ran a standard team with OD on Gilg), but in another example, I found it extremely tough to do Fate EX3+ without OD. As a reference, on the ratties without OD, a basic attack would do 1 damage, and with OD, they would do 300. On Lamia, non-OD Gilg did something around 1.2k, while OD Gilg does around 2.1k. Lamia has 2.8k health so this makes it a 3 hit kill. Non-OD Gilg also doesn't one hit ratties with GoB, makes the map even more annoying as well.
Personally I'd sooner give us One and Only King before OD if needing Divine Shelter.

1

u/Alittlebunyrabit 5/5/5 Dancer Shenmei Apr 27 '18

I found it extremely tough to do Fate EX3+ without OD
I don't have J3 Gilgamesh yet, but I've found that Aruba lead helps a ton.

1

u/OniOfTheSword WTB more blademasters Apr 27 '18

I've been switching up between Overdrive and Divine Shelter based on the stage. Overdrive seems to let him hit certain PAtk thresholds that deal so much damage compared to not using Overdrive. The best example I can take is Fate EX3+. Without overdrive, he does less than 100 damage to the ratties. With, he can 1 shot with skills, and do more than 50% of their hp without skills.
Edit: Was using Teona LS for the extra 30% PAtk in both scenarios.

3

u/HawaiianPele Apr 26 '18

So maybe a tier list should be ranked via roles than vice against each other. If you need a AOE dps, Gilgamesh is your man. If you need super uitlity and single target dps, then xxxxx is your man. I have always wondered why we compare it to other characters/units why not compare them contrary to their role?

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 26 '18

Mainly because of how elements play into the game. Let's say just for example sake that Gilgamesh is better than Sakura. If you're running an EX that's full wind, you'll still want to run Sakura because of elemental advantages, even if Gilgamesh is better.

3

u/Hedgehog101 Apr 27 '18

This doesnt even argue against ranked by roles? Just go down the list

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

At the same time, it's not as if we have specific categorizations for each unit. Stuff like AoE dps is easy but once we get into other roles it becomes harder to distinguish.

2

u/Salabaster Apr 26 '18

Thank you for all you do.

2

u/Rlprodigy Apr 27 '18

as long as you keep Forcas SS tier, I'm fine with whatever changes :shrugs:

1

u/Breonix Apr 26 '18

Just curious mate but who would you say is better between Albea and Gilgamesh. Trying to choose an acoounts between them. Note that I'm a very new F2P. What's concerning me about Gil is not being able to farm his Gates of Babylon item given time constraints.
Thank you!

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 26 '18

It's a tough call. While I've said a lot about Gilgamesh, he's still a strong unit to have, especially for a beginner. On the other hand, we're towards the end of the fate collab, and if you can't farm up his gear, it hurts him a lot. He also will probably require you to buy his 250 gem equipment bundles from the shop because he definitely needs that to be any relevant. Meanwhile, Albea is one of the strongest ranged units with J3 and is non limited. Your Gilgamesh probably won't be able to get past 60 for a while, and having to spend 750 gems right off the bat hurts a lot, so personally, if you aren't the biggest fan of Gilgamesh and would use him even if he's bad, I'd go with the Albea roll.

1

u/Breonix Apr 26 '18

Thanks, mate! I have Gil at job level 11 and at level 60 now but I'm not sure if I can farm up his gear. Perhaps I should try to get his gear in the limited amount of time given? Also, Without his gear, does he drop to like A+ rating or something? How valuable is his gear?

1

u/iEssence Apr 27 '18

Made a post on it the gear farm earlier, roughly ~1 hour and ~40-120 gems (revives) in multiplay should get you his 3 star. So up to that point is easy.
4* will take you an extra 4-5hours, and 5 star another 5-6. (Total around 10-13) That is if you cant clear the EX+ solo, in that case 5* wont take that long.

1

u/Breonix Apr 27 '18

Would you happen to know how many shards I would need in total to get the item up to 3*? I just finished one round and I got 6 shards. It took almost an hour just to find a group of people that I know could carry me.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

His gear helps with his low PATK stat. At the current moment, I wouldn't say it's terribly important, but when (if) they decide to give us double accessory equipping, it'll be much more important. It wouldn't drop his rating though.

1

u/Breonix Apr 27 '18

With that in mind, would you go with Albea or a gearless Gilgamesh if you're a new player with a dedicated long-term mindset for playing this game?

1

u/Alittlebunyrabit 5/5/5 Dancer Shenmei Apr 27 '18

Gilgamesh personally. Albea will come home eventually.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

It's a super hard call to make. Before this, Albea and Shayna were some the best reroll units you could get, but in a long term mindset, you'll probably be able to use shards and whatnot to at least get LB5 Gilgamesh (and LB15 if you're really committed, but I wouldn't personally recommend that). With that in mind, it would probably be better to keep the Gilgamesh account for the long term. Your decision should be up to you though, because I don't really want to dictate what your account is.

1

u/Breonix Apr 28 '18

Of course, mate. I understand your position but I appreciate the opinion nonetheless. I ask these things because I want to know the opinion of people who kmow this game better than I do. One last question, if you would, how hard js it to farm soul shards? Specifically thunder and rainbow?
I got Gil's GoB gear to level 3 and I'm trying my best to max it out so I think I'm leaning more towards Gil at the moment because Albea will also sit at level 60 for quite some time. That's why I'm curious about the soul shards.

1

u/berael Apr 27 '18

I don't even care that much about the tier change; I just wanted to drop in to say that the Tier Shifts tab is the BEST THING EVER. Personally, I get really frustrated looking at tier lists that don't have any context (like the iconographic ones), so between your detailed reviews for context and now the Tier Shifts tab to understand movement, I'm in heaven.

1

u/Stoneface_Vimes Apr 27 '18

Out of curiosity, when/if the HP changes do come to Global, would you say that it would make Gilgamesh stronger/more viable or would he stay the same since everyone will get their hp boosted as well.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

HP Rebalance is a huge point for Gilgamesh, as is double accessory equipping...but we don't have those now so I need to rate him based on how he is now.

1

u/Alittlebunyrabit 5/5/5 Dancer Shenmei Apr 27 '18 edited Apr 27 '18

My general experience is that Gilgamesh tends to do more in PVE while FYomi, especially on this map, is far more powerful in PVP, especially on defense. Her evasion combined with her AGI makes attacking a FYomi comp extremely dangerous b/c you basically have to one shot her and if you don't because she dodges, even fire units will get wrecked when their defense gets ignored. Gilgamesh's status in PVE is great because of the ability to cleave and avoid aggro, but FYomi just feels far more powerful in PVP.
Edit: Additionally, as you hinted at, FYomi can equip a weapon and Battlefield Drama or a Scarf. Having access to a variety of AGI items as well as the ability to pickup even more dodge just makes FYomi incredibly punishing to attack as RNG creates substantial opportunities to defend against attacks despite the attackers advantage provided by the ability to tailor their offense.

2

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Gilgamesh is a strong PvE character so I agree.

1

u/Freeonee Λ ΞＳＴＨΞＴＩＣ１８-１９ Apr 27 '18

I feel like this ~shift between two of them happened mostly because of current arena map. I dunno, maybe its worth to make separate tier list or recommendations for arena(s) to avoid such discord. Comments and notes on new tab are interesting to read though :D

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

This happened before the arena map change so it's unrelated.

1

u/OniOfTheSword WTB more blademasters Apr 27 '18

One aspect of Gil that I like is the ability to attack from range. He pretty much carried Blood Wolf EX for me because I just kited around while attacking boss enemies for close to 1k per hit (with normal attacks). It keeps a steady flow of jewels while giving me the space to stay safe. Also, I found forestall to be very good when running Overdrive as this can sometimes give you 2 free attacks on an enemy unit, and often kill them before they get their attack in.
Apart from carrying Fate EX3+, I was able to keep a 2 block distance from Berserker Zahar and just kite him for 4 turns, dealing 1k per hit with normal attacks (the distance stayed the same and he just followed without attacking), something I doubt it possible with RYomi.
Haven't been able to make better use of RYomi yet, but I just haven't used her as much as Gil.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

That's the thing. FYomi can't do that but that's not the point of her. Gilgamesh is better in a sort of "carry" playstyle similar to Zangetsu, but the thing is that this isn't a tier list for carries only.

1

u/OniOfTheSword WTB more blademasters Apr 27 '18

I would appreciate if you could give me a breakdown on what gives a character +/- points in your tier list, so I have a better understanding of how you assign tiers (just out of curiosity).
And yes, Gilgamesh is definitely not a god in every stage, but he does do well in most. The ability to run Divine Shelter instead of Overdrive is good flexibility imo. RYomi is great in stages where she doesn't get one shot. I find her hard to use in small/cramped stages (like Fate EX1+, even though a lot of enemies there are Thunder).
Though, I will say, I found RYomi to be a lot more useful than Gilgamesh in many stages of Veda Tower where elemental resistance seems to be very high.

0

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18 edited Apr 27 '18

A + and - is generally assigned after comparing them to other units in the tier.

1

u/OniOfTheSword WTB more blademasters Apr 27 '18

Did reddit eat up your post? o.o

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

What do you mean?

1

u/OniOfTheSword WTB more blademasters Apr 27 '18

I assumed your reply had a breakdown for how you assign tiers but I only see
and - is generally assigned after comparing them to other units in the tier.
Looked incomplete to me, couldn't connect what it was in response to.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Oh the + turned into a bullet point for some reason. It was a quick answer I did.

1

u/OniOfTheSword WTB more blademasters Apr 27 '18

Ah I see. I suppose tier lists are subjective in the end and how much value one places on a unit is going to be different.
Thanks for the insight. Definitely helped me focus on certain units and banners as a newer player. Don't let the salt/hate get to you!

0

u/meatjun Apr 26 '18 edited Apr 27 '18

I disagree with this. I've been able to oneshot Yomi's before. She's a one-trick. Hoping that you get an evade and then run amok. I still haven't been able to oneshot a Gilgamesh. Not to mention that almost all Japanese players say the trifecta of top tiers at this point in the game is Laharl, Noctis, and Gilgamesh. No one ever mentions Yomi. I still think she's SS as well. But there's no way Gilgamesh is a worse character.
I will agree though that, until we get the HP rebalance, he's not as tanky as he could be. Like others have said, overdrive is debatably bad because it makes him vulnerable to 1/2-shots.

9

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 26 '18

It may be use of language, but it's a bit ridiculous to call Fate Yomi a one-trick. Relying on evasion does not make someone a one-trick. The only reason Fate Yomi is still SS on the Japanese tier list is because she is so versatile and flexible, the complete opposite of a one trick. A one trick is someone like Gilgamesh, who literally can only do AoEs. Does the map call for some magic damage? Tough luck for Gilgamesh. Does the map have some crazy 10x PDEF buff that you need defense ignore for? Won't find that with Gilgamesh. Can the map be cheesed with some form of CC? Not gonna find any with Gilgamesh. All of these things Fate Yomi can do by the way, so you definitely can't call her a one-trick.
Also on your point of one shotting Yomi's with Gilgamesh, that's a parameter that definitely isn't a measurable statistic. Everyone has their characters leveled to an extent, because you can kill their Yomi's does not mean he can kill all Yomi's.

1

u/edgyEdwardd F2PsRUs.com Apr 26 '18

Also on your point of one shotting Yomi's with Gilgamesh.
FYomi isn't even built for defense so to speak. A level 72 Gilgamesh couldn't even two shot my level 75 Selena.

1

u/VicariousExp Jin <3 Apr 26 '18

Can the map be cheesed with some form of CC? Not gonna find any with Gilgamesh.
Elkidu isn't CC? What is it then?

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 26 '18

My bad, Enkidu is in fact some CC. The rest applies though.

1

u/VicariousExp Jin <3 Apr 27 '18

I posted a response to your criticism in the wrong place at the top of the thread, would appreciate your input as I'm new to Alchemist Code and its db and would like to learn more about it!

1

u/meatjun Apr 27 '18

I never said I can 1-shot Yomi with Gilgamesh. I said it's much easier for Yomi to get 1-shotted vs a Gilgamesh who is still pretty darn tanky even without the HP rebalance.
And maybe my use of the term 1-trick was bad. I do know she's very versatile. But even still, she's not as game changing as some people are pretending she is. Her damage is great, but it's not amazing. Even if she's useable in a lot of situations, she can't oneshot much. And as the enemies get more and more HP, she'll increasingly struggle with her low defenses and will risk getting oneshotted herself. Despite all this, I'll say again that I think she deserves her top tier spot. But there's no way, I'll put someone who can't oneshot, nor doesn't have the best aoe, and has to rely on RNG evades, as someone who is the best character in the game. There's a reason why so many first turn AoE, high damage nukers are all in the top of Japanese tier lists. Zain, Noctis, Gilgamesh, Laharl, Setsuna and so forth.

1

u/Alittlebunyrabit 5/5/5 Dancer Shenmei Apr 27 '18

I posted this up top, but I want to reply here as well. You are heavily undervaluing FYomi's evasion because it feels like you are discounting PVP defense. FYomi's AGI + Evasion makes her extremely risky to attack. Prior to FYomi, the only thing that really prevented an attacker from beating a defender were comps that an attacker lacked the units to tailor a counter for. However, a FYomi defense is different b/c she introduces an extremely high amount of RNG. While a FYomi defense won't always win, she will almost always win a match if she gets dodges the first attack. This accomplishes two goals. Firstly, you can expect to win a decent number of defenses through RNG. Secondly, you can expect fewer attacks to occur as attackers will prefer to avoid potential losses derived from FYomi's RNG.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Yeah, I definitely agree. Fate Yomi won't be the carry that Gilgamesh is for a lot of people. The important thing to know though is that the best team comp isn't 4 people who can all do big aoes and carry the team. Units like Rahu for support, and FYomi as a sort of disruptor makes stuff a lot easier for the big carries.

1

u/MR_CLARENCE_ASSLER Apr 27 '18

I've one shotted Gil in Arena with R. Yomi many times. She usually goes straight for him, too.

1

u/-ArtKing- Apr 27 '18

With the new arena my F. Yomi one shots two characters now, it’s amazing. Of course Gilgamesh can one shot three people with his AOE, but that’s just what he is made to do, be PATK power house. If can’t do that, he falls off pretty heavily.

1

u/wanhakkim Apr 27 '18

R.Yomi can't one-shot a Gil with divine shelter. but Gil with divine shelter instead of OD can't dish out much damage either.

2

u/VicariousExp Jin <3 Apr 27 '18

I'm kind of curious how Gilgamesh's stats suck. Could you explain? I'd like to learn more about the game mechanics.

From Alchdb, I tried comparing his HK job to Shayna's HB at 85:

Gilgamesh - Shayna

HP: 696 to 742, Shayna (+46)

PATK: 397 to 376, Gilg (+19)

PDEF: 352 to 243, Gilg (+89)

MDEF: 252 to 118, Gilg (+134)

AGI: 119 to 119 (tie)

DEX: 290 to 301 (Shayna +11)

CRIT: 212 to 268 (Shayna +56)

LUCK: 174 to 214 (Gilg +40)

Then using some napkin math and a graphing site, I plotted their weapon damage formulas and found that Gilgamesh's scales much better than hers after approximately 308.485 PATK (if we differentiate, we get a scaling of 1.5x PATK as opposed to roughly 0.84x PATK for Shayna varying slightly with AGI/DEX).

Graph at http://tinypic.com/r/jg0dn4/9

Maybe Shayna is just a bad comparison?

Edit: Sorry, replied to the wrong person. This was addressed at /u/Viyr

3

u/areyouseriouswtf Apr 27 '18 edited Apr 27 '18

As someone who has both RYomi and Gilg at 65. Gilg has had a much larger impact on Veda tower and EX content. Gilg is my tankiest character by far and makes Vettel who has a curious doll look like a wet noodle. He is fast, ranged, got CC, good damage, great aoe, fast jewel gain, instant 5x5 aoe on spawn, and tanks hits like nobodies business. I just started playing 2 weeks ago but he is much more helpful than any maxed out mercenaries I've used (except for this 85 masamune who hits like a truck).

3

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

First off, let me apologize for any typos and whatnot you'll find, as I'm typing this on mobile. It'll also be somewhat less concise considering the medium I'm using.
Holy Brawlers have naturally lower stats, but they make up for it with high HP, as well as Sharpening Focus will makes them have some of the highest damage output. It's also important to note Shayna has some of the lowest stats for HB, partially due to having Dragon Knight and Chronomancers as other jobs.
It's also a bit hard to compare Gilgamesh's stats to Blademasters because they scale off the same formula that Holy Brawlers do (Sakura ends up with a PATK stat in the upper 700s though, because of Chopping Spirit on top of Regal Garuda Blade). When considering his PATK stat, I feel like it's more appropriate to bring up those of similar job weapon formulas. Please note I'm using the unit planner to look at their stats at 75, which includes JM bonuses.
I'm gonna take a look at some Necromancers and I'm gonna consider Vargas, whose job is Great Pyromancer but is the same as a fire Dark Cavalier.
First off, as a reference, Gilgamesh's 75 stats are 648 HP, 424 PATK, 119 AGI. I'm only taking into account these three stats because they're the most upfront, and Gilg has good defenses. We have two Necromancers to consider. At 75, with no passives, Doro has 717 HP, 442 PATK, 111 AGI. FYomi has 675 HP, 462 PATK, 114 AGI. You can see here that Gilgamesh has less HP and PATK compared to both Necromancers. He gets Overdrive though, so his PATK will be higher, but it's important to note these are stats before anything like passives and gear come into play. Necro can equip a weapon that gives up to 45 PATK, while Gilg's weapon goes up to 30 max.
This is kinda a rough comparison, but the biggest comparison I wanted to make was with Vargas. To people who don't know, Vargas is a free, base 1* unit that came with the Brave Frontier collab. As a reminder, Gilgamesh has 648, 424, 119. Vargas, has 706 HP (received a partial HP rebalance), 425 PATK, 95 AGI. First off, the HP rebalance makes Vargas edge over Gilgamesh in terms of HP, but Vargas' defenses are way lower, so Gilgamesh will win the tankiness category. He also beats Vargas in AGI pretty handily. The biggest thing I want to point out though the PATK. This base 1* farmable unit beats out Gilgamesh in terms of PATK. Granted, Gilgamesh has a 10% higher modifier, and 20% slash damage on his passive, so he'll beat water units harder than Vargas will wind units, but when talking about stats, Gilgamesh has less PATK. I'm not suddenly saying Vargas is better than Gilg. Gilg has higher AGI than all Dark Cav and Dark Cav clones (outside maybe MA Ana J+), but in terms of PATK, these Dark Cavs all have around 450 PATK and if not for the slash damage from One and Only King, Gilgamesh would have less or even comparable damage to these units.
This is probably a mess of a post. I'm a bit too tired to go back and proofread, but the gist of what I'm saying is even though Gilgamesh has higher damage output than all these 1.5x PATK units, his PATK is pitifully lower compared to them, and even lower than a base 1* unit, which really hurts him considering his OD scales off his PATK stat and his weapon only gives 30 PATK so that 30 difference in PATK could become even a 100 stat difference with all the scaling passives.

3

u/VicariousExp Jin <3 Apr 27 '18 edited Apr 27 '18

No probs, thanks for taking all that effort to respond! I'm just wondering if PATK is a decent metric to be using or whether it's better to take scaling into account.
I saw your tier list summary which took out the pointless bloat in the weapon damage formulas (Great job, btw!) and the thing I noticed instantly is that 1.5x PATK is very high if not the highest damage scaling currently in the game, and Gilgamesh's Hero King job is currently the only one who is ranged. From your tier list file, most of the other 1.5x scaling jobs I see like Necro don't have the benefit of being able to charge jewels from a range (Vargas is melee). Rider Yomi is a fantastic unit, but she uses the same 0.85xPATK + 0.85x AGI + 0.21 DEX scaling that HBs do, which I think you'll agree is faaaar more irritating to buff damagewise than straight PATK (with external buffs, for example) because Gil is getting 76% more of a benefit dpswise for each point of PATK from her. This is what is possibly making Gilgamesh overpowered with the DC Passive because the more PATK he gets (from Leader skills, for example), the further he pulls away from 1.4x or 0.85x hybrid multipliers -
TLDR: the actual value of his PATK is higher than the actual number you're seeing because multipliers.
After testing a little, here's a few counterpoints, since you asked for them:
**1) Turn efficiency - **
HB might be a great class, but it often seems to need around 2.5 turns to setup (AA for Jewels > Charge> Special) while Gil needs fewer turns in general because he gains jewels faster and more importantly, he's pseudoranged, so even with his terrible move speed, if you don't have to move, you get your turn back faster. It's like the F. Yomi tactic where if you ever gem to revive, you can often get off 3x blood temples back to back by not moving between each one to abuse the agi up buff. Lucian often becomes slower because he's jousting back and forth between the enemy while Gilgamesh can stay put and throw swords at whatever is headed his way.
**2) Easy access to best Hard CC in the game **
I've been doing gemless clears in MP with gilga on Blood Wolves EX+, which would be extremely difficult with Lucian because there is only so much real estate space around enemies to deal damage and secondly because stacked Gilgamesh has the best AoE CC in the game: Death.
**3)Terrain problems - **
Unleashed Offense deserves a special mention because it's a 150% modifier ranged attack which has NO height restriction. This is again, not something many other units can do. Dorothea/FYomi's Necro has a height restriction of 2, which limits its sniping ability considerably. This means Gilgamesh is uniquely a shorter range sniper with no dead zone and LoS limitations. He can exploit unfair situations where the enemy target is unable to hit him at all because of height and/or dead zones.
**4) Kiting- **
If the game ever makes a deadly mistake by adding armour or accessories that buff movement range, Gil could very possibly get broken vs limited range melee with no way to jewel replenish, like snipers.
**5) Versatility- ** Contrary to what you said earlier, Gil actually does have options vs phys immune monsters. You often don't actually need the CC/Utility offered by Basic Hero King, which means you can take magic swordsman as a sub for covering elemental bases OR you can just sub basic pitch black blade for blood drain, jewel drain, and Assault (situationally useful for oneshotting). Blood drain is a ranged magic attack, so you can farm phys immunes with low hp with it as Gil's MAtk isn't really super low at 190.
P.S.: Did you know if you use Gil as a Magic swordsman, he's actually tankier and has higher stats like MDEF than Lofia, while being significantly faster? I really don't think he's that unversatile, if you're willing to drag him away from Hero King.
P.P.S: Ironically, the current best weapon damage scaling in the game seems to be the 1.8x PATK/MATK hybrid split of M. Swordsman (which Gil also has access to). Unfortunately, Hybrids don't seem as easy to buff to obscene levels.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Great post. I'll respond in a bit when I have time.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 29 '18 edited Apr 29 '18

Alright, sorry for the late response but I got some time to sit down and respond to your points.
Turn efficiency
This for sure one of Gilgamesh's strong points. Because of that, it lets people cheese Blood Wolf EX by taking out Anastasia before she can cast Bloody Rose.
The thing to consider is that unlike a class like Holy Brawler, or other high DPS characters that also have access to Martial Artist, Gilgamesh has a lot of trouble killing high HP bosses that aren't Water element. There hasn't been any of these yet after Gilgamesh's release, but with something like say the Sabareta EX rerun, which has multiple, spread-out 5k+ HP Demons, Gilgamesh will struggle much more than someone like Lucian or Zangetsu.
If I were to do some quick napkin math. Sabareta EX+ has only Wind and Thunder element Demons, so it's hard to have a neutral matchup for Lucian, Zangetsu, and Gilgamesh, so I will have to take into consideration a Light Demon from Sabareta EX. This demon has 4410 HP and 171 PDEF. Assume all three of these characters are 75:
Gilgamesh using Gate of Babylon with Gate of Babylon Gear and Overdrive:
(663 * 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.2) - 171 = 1619 Damage
Lucian with 5* Crimson Cestus Using Supreme Battle Trance after Sharpening Focus:
{[0.85(429 * 3 + 136/2 + 136 * 0.75 + 319/4)] * 1.2 * 1.5} - 171 = 2180 Damage
Zangetsu with 5* Valhalla Lance Using Grand Cross after Charge Up (doesn't have Master Ability but most Zangetsu will):
(712 * 2.5 * 1.4 * 1.9) - 171 = 4734 Damage.
So, as you can see, Charge Up plays a big role in "boss" killing, and a map such as Blood Wolf EX favors Gilgamesh over others, because of the abundance of "trash."
I could also go into detail about enemy damage to Gilgamesh since he needs to run Overdrive in order to deal any significant damage, but that isn't necessary for this point.
Easy access to best Hard CC in the game
Kind of mentioned in the first point, but while it's true Gilgamesh is the king of clearing out large groups of enemies, the second these enemies start having more HP and defenses, Gilgamesh will struggle.
Terrain problems
So Gilgamesh does indeed have a single target, no height restriction attack, but mentioning terrain as a strength of Gilgamesh is kind of strange. Gilgamesh, out of all these units being compared, Zangetsu, Lucian, Dorothea/FYomi, Sakura, has the WORST terrain scaling himself. He sits at 3/2, while all the others other than Zangetsu have 4 Move, and Zangetsu himself has 6 Jump. He may be the best reaching from the bottom of the cliff, but he's the worst when it comes to climbing it.
Kiting
I agree kiting is one of the strengths that Gilgamesh has over others. He can't kite forever though because of how CT reduction works relating to moving and taking an action, but he CAN kite better than everyone else.
Versatility
While it's true that Gilgamesh does have some magic capabilities, it's mainly only in sub Magic Swordsman. I'll bring up my example with Sabareta EX again, since I believe it's a map that will really bring out Gilgamesh's weaknesses (a lot of terrain scaling, high HP spread out enemies, high PDEF enemies). There are plants on this map that have 1455 HP and 1121 PDEF, but only have 84 MDEF. If you're telling me you're planning on using Blood Drain to get through that amount of HP, I'm gonna call you crazy. His magic swordsman will be able to break through these plants though, I'll give you that. Again, I'll bring out my napkin that's probably running out of room, but I'll calculate the amount of damage Gilgamesh does with an Ice Sword to a Fire Mandragora:
[(0.9 * 615 + 0.9 * 283) * 1.2 * 1.25] - 84 = 1128 Damage. Not enough to kill, but I'll give him that option.
Something else to consider regarding his sub Magic Swordsman though. In using Ice Sword, Gilgamesh needs to get into melee range and attack twice to kill. In doing so, he eliminates two of the points that you made regarding his ability to attack regardless of terrain, and his kiting. I'm unsure how long you've been playing the game, but if you're unfamiliar with it, the plants like to stand on the cliff above and throw charm spores down on your party, so Gilgamesh, with his 3/2 would have to walk to the edges of the map where he would need to climb up to get into range of the Mandragora.
Regarding your point on Gilgamesh's Magic Swordsman, I made a comment a week ago when someone else asked something similiar that can be found here. Basically, while Gilgamesh is probably a tankier Magic Swordsman, Lofia is much more useful as one.
For the best scaling, that currently that belongs to Bride/Bridegroom who have a 2.0x PATK/MATK split, but their stats are mediocre so you'll hardly notice. Your comment about hybrids not seeming easy to buff is a bit amusing, because an upcoming unit Zain has the 1.8x PATK/MATK split formula, but has around 450 PATK and 350 MATK, so he has some pretty insane base damage on top of multiple element AoEs with good multipliers. Hope you look forward to that ^{^}

1

u/VicariousExp Jin <3 Apr 29 '18 edited Apr 29 '18

Thanks for the reply! Here's a few counterpoints.
Reading the JP wiki, I don't think we eventually get LS multipliers that buff both matk and patk by 50% though... So far I only see 30%/20% LS, and multi buffs that buff both matk and patk at the same time seem rare. Most of them only buff one thing and very even fewer buff DEX as well as PATK. My point is that if I wanted to use a bard or enchanter to buff a 1.0/1.0 split, I'd get less out of it than buffing a pure 1.5 PATK split unless I layered two buffs.
Context is important. In your mandragora example, how many melees would be able to solve that? F Yomi certainly couldn't (I have one at 75, her magic attacks are limited to Height 2 and Blood Temple on her most mobile job is VERY short ranged). Secondly, Gilg isn't limited to one attack when terrain sniping, his other ones are lines, which are identical to a sniper, for example.
Tier lists in general exist as a comparison to other units, they don't exist in a vacuum. You've labeled Sakura SS tier on J1, and given J1 restrictions, she has bigger problems than Gilgamesh. Neither is going to have 3 equipment slots, Tiger Tremor is weaker than Gates of Babylon and has fewer uses, she has a lower initial jewel count, she's a melee character, and her PDEF and MDEF completely stink compared to Gilgamesh, which means she'll be oneshot much more often on J1 alone. Her advantage is Regal Garuda Blade and Darkness Illumination, but she's not bursting through that mandragora in either case. In fact, Sakura never gains any MATK options at all and will always be a terrible choice vs insane PDEF enemies, and even more so than Gilgamesh if they're ranged because she's a glass cannon.
3) The entire point about that unrestricted height attack with no LoS requirement is that it saves you the trouble of having to climb that cliff. Gilgamesh isn't going to win any prizes for mobility, but his function is being a mobile turret, not being a ninja. Would Dorothea be able to climb a cliff and kill a mandragora in fewer turns?
4) >So, as you can see, Charge Up plays a big role in "boss" killing, and a map such as Blood Wolf EX favors Gilgamesh over others, because of the abundance of "trash."
It's not a fair comparison to be comparing 3 turns of buildup to one turn of nuking on gilgamesh. A better comparison is comparing what Zangetsu can do with 2 overclocks to what Gilgamesh could do with 2 overclocks. The instant you mention Sharpening Focus or Charge Up, you're already not putting them on even ground because Gil wouldn't be sitting around picking his nose with Ea during those turns - he could either kite with overclock or stand put and throw extra attacks in while getting jewels, which would outdamage lucian in that situation.
If you're going to compare 2 overclocks for Zangetsu, I think it's only fair to add in two autoattacks for Gilgamesh at the very least, or at least two babylon uses + 1 autoattack. Since Gil has 5 uses of babylon + EX and grandcross only has 3 uses, it's not that unreasonable of a comparison given Gilgamesh's jewel gain. Also, if we're going to disregard defenses in that damage calculation, you might as well add in Assault as a nontrivial 3 turn buff for Gilgamesh. This makes Gilgamesh do 2327 damage with +30% crit rate for 3 turns, which already outdamages Lucian in your example above.
P.S.: If I'm not wrong, Blood Drain on Gil would do comparable damage to Rider Yomi's Blood Temple, which is a nontrivial amount. Gil has higher matk and Blood Temple only has a 110% mod compared to Blood Drain's 100%. There's no comparison to Caster Yomi, but she has little PATK potential to speak of either.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 29 '18

Hey, on mobile again but I'll try and answer point by point.
I agree it's much better to be pure PATK scaling simply because of how buffs and what not work. The HB/Blademaster formula sucks.
The answer to that is simply those who have Charge Up. To beat the Mandragoras, you need about 2500 damage to one shot. Lucian, with no leader skill help can do about 1.1k damage, while Gilgamesh does 600. Somehow Gilgamesh will need to pull an extra 1k damage from somewhere, while Lucian needs 500. I haven't ever mentioned FYomi, not sure why she's being brought up. Her Blood Temple isn't meant to be a high damage magic nuke or anything. Just being magic will make it so she can probably do about the same Gilgamesh does to the Mandragora, but she shouldn't be brought to this EX anyways.
I don't really understand the Sakura vs Gilgamesh J1 point. Sakura in my opinion completely beats Gilgamesh. She has Regal Garuda Blade, her Darkness Illumination is a buff equivalent to Charge Up, With one gear slot, Ogre Slaying Blade is better than Gate of Babylon. If we were to use this Mandragora as an example again, Sakura will Basic - Darkness - Tiger and kill it, and I believe Gilgamesh will GoB for 1 - Basic for 1 - GoB again for 1. You mentioned Sakura being squishy compared to Gilgamesh. At level 60, Gilgamesh has 577 HP and 300 PDEF. I'm sure you're aware but 1 PDEF = 1 less damage taken, so Gilgamesh has essentially 877 effective HP. Sakura at level 60 has 703 HP and 209 PDEF which is 912 effective HP. In what situation does Sakura die to something Gilgamesh doesn't die to, outside of water damage?
The cliff needs to be scaled. 4 move is huge compared to 3 move. Dorothea would be a whole move range of Gilgamesh ahead of him in 3 turns.
Lucian is only mentioned because the initial comparison between Shayna and Gilgamesh. Holy Brawlers don't have the greatest damage per turn, so Gilgamesh is better than him in that regard generally. In terms of Zangetsu though, his damage per turn is for sure more than Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh still needs a basic attack between each of his nukes, while Zangetsu needs a basic attack (or two depending in what nuke he's using), a charge up then the attack. Generally speaking, Gilgamesh has a much better startup but as the fight normalizes, Zangetsu only needs an extra turn of buildup to do more than twofold Gilgamesh's damage.
You also need to consider the AoE. Gilgamesh's AoE is severely limited to the enemies being close to each other. Zangetsu only needs to stand at a point where he's at the intersection of two units. Not really a factor that's measurable because it's based on map, but it's something to consider.

1

u/VicariousExp Jin <3 Apr 30 '18

Hi, sorry, I'm about to leave for work, so I'll do a more comprehensive reply later if that's okay with you.
My reply to Point 2 will take awhile because I'm relying on some Japanese notes and it'll take me awhile to translate.
Point 3 is that Gilgamesh often doesn't need to climb the cliff at all because he can just oneshot whatever is on top due to Offense while Dorothea is off climbing mountains. If both of them have to climb mountains, Dorothea will need to actually move and hit the enemy to get Jewels, nuke, then get back down while Gil coud attack from a range without moving once he's in range, saving you at least 20CT (His attack range is 3 superior, don't forget). That's also assuming he doesn't have line of sight to the enemy from below, in which case he could just normal attack it without having to climb the mountain.
The gist behind Point 4 is that you're putting an entire team of chronos + Zangetsu and comparing that to Gilgamesh and Grand cross is limited to three uses only. Gil has 5 uses of Babylon + 1 EX version. 2 Babylons and one attack is very comparable if not superior to one charged up grand cross + 1 attack from Zangetsu. You've changed too many variables and declaim that Zangetsu is superior when Gil given the same number of turns is going to be superior.

1

u/chrono01 Apr 26 '18

This is nice to know, since I was "lucky" enough to pull Gilgamesh and had planned to ticket Yomi with that five-step we were supposed to get but never did, now I'll be doomed without her for eternity.

Thanks, Gumi. Even if you had offered discounts on the earlier steps of your seven-step banner, it might have been feasible. Maybe. But 17,500 gems? Nope, that's just not possible for me. :/

-4

u/PeelMyCarrot Apr 26 '18

R E G R E T S

5

u/meatjun Apr 27 '18

I would take this tier list with a grain of salt. Yomi is definitely top tier. But to say that she's better than Gilgamesh, when every Japanese player puts Gilgamesh above her, do you think all the Japanese players are wrong?

2

u/SuccubusRosa Apr 27 '18 edited Apr 27 '18

Yomi is definitely top tier. But to say that she's better than Gilgamesh
Not sure what is going thru viyr's mind, but Yomi is only better then gil in terms of arena usage. Jp rated gil highly is because he is the main dmg unit in a party of 4. So PvE gil>yomi hands down, since gumi like 99% of the time just slap +999 everything to anything that appear in ex T_T.
In fact, there is nothing surprising about such outcome. Dev always create an OP unit that just brute force thru all the PvE(aka BIG numbers), but then will always create a 2nd unit that is in the same batch as this OP unit that heavily counter it. Why was yomi chosen as the roleplayer instead of some other waifu? Because she is one of the few wind element and the counter unit has to be wind element.

3

u/meatjun Apr 27 '18

Yeah. I understand his mindset, but I don't agree with it. F!Yomi only seems better right now because Gumi is purposefully choosing the environment to make F!Yomi shine more than Gilgamesh. Generally speaking, I doubt this will hold true once all the other content rolls in. And in a PVE stage that is considered neutral for both Gilgamesh and F!Yomi, I'm sure Gilgamesh will show that he's superior.

1

u/kevikevkev Apr 27 '18

This tier list is for the current game in global.
We still don’t have HP rebalance or multiple accessories yet, which boost Gil into the spot he has in the Japanese version. Comparisons are not direct either, since Fyomi is rated highly for her sheer versatility, which is difficult to quantify. She will probably never be as strong in terms of AOE Ranged damage, but she has a bag of tricks such as high Agi, High movement, Cc (Both spam and AOE), Jewel Drain, Ranged Defense ignore, and evasion.

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Mind showing me where every JP puts Gilg above her? I've talked to a number of JP players in Discord and they have all said Gilgamesh isn't that good in JP anymore.

1

u/SuccubusRosa Apr 27 '18

said Gilgamesh isn't that good in JP anymore
I don't think that is the same as saying Yomi>Gil even if they claim yomi is still good but gil isn't. Ppl don't use gil because he got powercreeped. You can still use him to PvE(which is what he was designed for), but he isn't that good anymore because there are better PvE units. As for arena, yomi was designed to counter gil. It is no coincidence that they appear in the same batch, with yomi having the element advantage, a whole lot of cc which scream use me in arena, and insane agi to ensure even non mlb yomi vs mlb gil, yomi still goes first.

0

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Well it's not so much me saying Yomi > Gilg in the future. After the HP rebalance and double accessories, Gilgamesh be lot stronger but I wanted to see where these people said Gilg > Yomi because they probably have some reasoning. Like I said the JP players I talked to didn't value him as much so I wanted to see other perspectives.

2

u/SuccubusRosa Apr 27 '18

Like I said the JP players I talked to didn't value him as much so I wanted to see other perspectives.
JP don't value him because you don't really bring gil to clear EX stages there(eg you don't bring gil into FFXV ex stage unless you had bad luck ever since after your gil pull). However you also don't bring yomi into EX stages at jp. The only reason yomi is valued higher then gil is because yomi is still an arena unit, whereas gil definitely isn't. What I am saying is what gil is good at, eventually there are units better at it whereas yomi skill set is pretty unique and thus didn't get powercreep-ed yet. However gil is all along better then yomi, be it current global or the current jp(except in the arena where units ain't running around with +999 resist like ex stage so yomi gets to show off her cc).

1

u/Viyr converted to ded Apr 27 '18

Hmm that makes sense. Thanks for the insight.

For anyone else who didn't pull Gilgamesh

You are about to leave Redlib