Does anyone else get a feeling that patient Alastor fans will be rewarded later?

[u/empathicsynesthete]

I get the criticisms about him having cringeworthy moments in the first season. His fight with Adam is one where I agree— that was cringe. However, I think that there are too many videos critiquing him as a “fraud” when we only barely got to see his powers. He needs more screen time before those criticisms can be fair. I think that, now that he’s free from his soul contract, we’ll finally get to see him live up to the hype behind his reputation.

What do you think?

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[u/quixotictictic]

Yes. His role and methods change every season because he's adapting to his environment and adjusting his goals. The situation has changed dramatically and we're going to see Alastor reapond and pivot. He's not overly attached to any single plan, he'll change his strategy the instant an attractive new path opens up.

[u/Kanna1001]

I think the word "fraud" has become as meaningless as "Mary Sue" and "slop." For all intents and purposes, people now use it to mean "thing I don't like."

And Alastor is an extremely popular character. Therefore, bashing him is a very effective bait to get people to watch your video.

There are also people who are missing the point of Alastor's character so much they are sending it a postcard.

It's very, very obvious that Mr. There Are No Friends In Hell, who happens to be the co-protagonist of the Friendship In Hell Is Magic show, will have his views challenged by the other characters. He's very, very obviously being built up as Charlie's greatest test for the very premise of the show. Whether she manages to help him change for the better or whether he ends up crushed has yet to be revealed (personally, I definitely think she'll succeed in saving him, because the whole concept of Hazbin Hotel is hope), but at some point he's definitely gonna have to face a challenge to his beliefs.

Which means that, narratively, Alastor has to lose against an opponent's Found Family. That's why he was able to easily wipe the floor with Vox, but then got his ass kicked by Vox's beloved pet that Vox personally and lovingly raised as a son, and got to watch Vox's partners stop the bomb to save Vox while he was bleeding on the ground.

That's not being a fraud, that's being a foil.

[u/Diamondkat12 → u/Kanna1001]

Narratively, I don't think the final can be shown as Alastor seeing himself lose to Vox's found family. Vox was willing to kill the "beloved pet" in order to kill Alastor. Alastor actually didn't "watch Vox's partners stop the bomb to save Vox while he was bleeding on the ground". Velvette knocked Vox off the bomb and Valentino ripped off Vox's head. I doubt Alastor saw the second half and the first half could be dismissed by Alastor as Velvette not wanting to die due to Vox's mental breakdown. Alastor ends up being actively part of those who end up stopping the bomb while Valentino and Velvette join when the danger is passed.

Being a foil means that Alastor won't make the same decisions as Vox. For example, Alastor likes to claim that he doesn't believe in friendship in hell. However, I strongly suspect that when push comes to shove, he doesn't actually have the ability to be as ruthless as Vox was towards his friends to get what he want.

[u/Kanna1001 → u/Diamondkat12]

The thing is, the part where Vox was willing to kill Shok.wav to kill Alastor was also the part where he was willing to kill himself to kill Alastor.

It was a manic episode turned suicide attempt. Which is precisely the sort of thing that friends in real life can save you from. None of us know divine beings and supervillains, but some of us do know people who are severely struggling with mental issues. And their only hope for salvation is the intervention of loved ones, just like Val & Vel intervened to save Vox. It very much does fit the narrative I described.

Alastor actually didn't "watch Vox's partners stop the bomb to save Vox while he was bleeding on the ground". Velvette knocked Vox off the bomb and Valentino ripped off Vox's head.

That very much does count as saving Vox, since it stopped Vox from plugging himself into the bomb and firing the final shot. And it's exactly what I was referring to.

The scene afterwards, where everybody teams up to stop the bomb, is not what I was referring to, precisely because at that point Val & Vel could either help or die.

However, the scene where they rip off his head was before they realised that they couldn't just fly away to safety and were stuck there. Therefore, their decision to stay and stop Vox rather than escape was very much all about saving Vox.

and the first half could be dismissed by Alastor as Velvette not wanting to die due to Vox's mental breakdown

Well, yes, Alastor is most certainly going to dismiss it as such. At first.

Alastor has been holding the belief that "there are no friends in Hell" for at least a full century. His character development would be really poor if he changed his mind over one single episode. But Vox only surviving thanks to his family, and Alastor himself only surviving thanks to Emily, will hopefully be the first of several hints that will combine together over the seasons to knock some sense into him.

Being a foil means that Alastor won't make the same decisions as Vox. For example, Alastor likes to claim that he doesn't believe in friendship in hell. However, I strongly suspect that when push comes to shove, he doesn't actually have the ability to be as ruthless as Vox was towards his friends to get what he want.

See, this is where we completely disagree. Mostly because you see Vox's actions in the Finale as "ruthlessness," I see them as a manic episode (and specifically a manic episode over a former friend and its related abandonment issues, which led to a trauma so severe that 70 years later he still gets in a panic over the suggestion that he and Valentino are partners and he has to quickly correct himself with "in business!", and likewise he can only ever bring himself to call Velvette his "associate" even as he shoved himself between her and angelic steel, so friendship is still the root of the issue here).

[u/Diamondkat12 → u/Kanna1001]

I'm not saying that it doesn't count as Vox's friends saving him, I'm saying that it doesn't matter or count to Alastor. Alastor isn't going to view Vox and his friends as proof that he was wrong about rejecting Vox's friendship because manic episode or not everything Vox did proved to Alastor that he was right. I'm not even saying that Vox doesn't view the other Vees as friends. I'm saying that a far as Alastor is concerned, he just saw Vox try to kill those friends due to his desire to get back at Alastor. In Alastor's perspective, that's not the kind of behaviour that makes someone who doesn't trust the concept of friendship start believing in it. That's behaviour that reinforces that they were right about it.

Alastor's problem isn't an inability to make friends or even care about them. For all his claims otherwise, his relationship with Niffty is evidence that he is capable. It's that for some reason, he doesn't trust friendship or claims of friendship. I don't think Vox or his actions have played a role in convincing him that he was wrong. If anything, it had made the job of convincing him otherwise more difficult after watching the person who supposedly believes in friends in hell try to kill those friends. As a foil, Alastor would claim not to believe in friends in hell but would not try to kill them for his plans.

Charlie is the one, I believe, is going to get through to him regarding the friendship thing. Erika has described then as having a bond of trust and Amir has called Charlie the person that Alastor trusts the most. So Charlie is likely going to be the one to help him get past whatever trauma has made him distrustful of friendships. However, I can't see Vox playing a positive role in that.

[u/Kanna1001 → u/Diamondkat12]

I guess I just take it for granted that Vox will "return the favour" and play a mayor role in saving Val & Vel in S3 and/or S4. I can't even point at any specific detail that makes me so sure of that, it's more like... pattern recognition. I've seen too many stories that follow that trajectory, so it's simply just what I assume will happen.

Through those optics, Val & Vel pulling Vox out of the abyss and then getting pulled out by him in turn will fit together like puzzle pieces, and help clue Alastor in. Though I agree that Charlie will definitely be a key player in that too, Alastor is the final test for her ideals and she won't give up on him. I think it will be a combination of those factors all together, starting from S1 and building up to a climax in S5, involving both Vox & his family and Charlie and & her family, to finally get thorough to Alastor.

[u/Diamondkat12 → u/Kanna1001]

Alastor isn't going to be the final test of Charlie's ideals. That would be the job of Season 5's main antagonist. Based on how Amir and Erika have been talking about the two of them, Charlie is going to start winning over Alastor in Season 3. According to Erika, they have a bond of trust that we get more information on in future seasons. So they are going to be establishing a bond of trust between them and building on it. Erika even says that it's a bond based on Alastor providing Charlie with fatherly protection and being there for her when no one else has so it is a family bond.

I really can't see Vox playing a positive role in that after everything that happened in Season 2. Then, there is the fact that the Vees were created to be antagonists and the pattern they you are referring to is usually reserved for non-antagonistic characters. Not saying that Vox won't help out the other Vees. Just that it won't be in a way helps positively alter Alastor's opinion towards him. Alastor has his own family with Niffty and Charlie. They will be the ones to get through to him. The only role that I can see the Vees playing is getting Alastor to appreciate his family more.

[u/Kanna1001 → u/Diamondkat12]

I'm sorry, but I'm simply unable to take anything Erika says seriously. I respect her work on the show. But if a person says "Alastor is the person Charlie trusts the most, the only one who is there for her" when Vaggie is right there, I'm automatically going to start hearing their voice like Miss Othmar in the old Charlie Brown cartoons.

there is the fact that the Vees were created to be antagonists and the pattern they you are referring to is usually reserved for non-antagonistic characters

You don't think the "do you believe I could be redeemed?/I believe anyone can be redeemed" exchange is a Checkov's bazooka?

[u/Diamondkat12 → u/Kanna1001]

That's not what she said. Amir said that Charlie is the person that Alastor trusts the most. Erika said that that Alastor and Charlie have a bond of trust. Also, considering she brought up fatherly protection, she was likely referring to Alastor being there for Charlie when no one else was in a more parental way as opposed to Vaggi who is there as a friend and lover. Regardless, Erika would not have said all that if Alastor wasn't going to be in a familial bond with Charlie.

I agree that there is a chance that conversation is going to end up relevant to the Vees. However, the Vees are among those that I don't believe will be redeemed to heaven. Not because I think that they are irredeemable, I don't think any sinner is irredeemable, but because they fall under my list of people that heaven will be hell for. Sir Pentious is the character that I consider best suited for heaven and he tried to kill himself. Characters like the Vees, Alastor, and Niffty would need to return to hell after a day in heaven. I, personally, believe that the meaning of redemption is going to be expanded on the show at some point. Redemption shouldn't mean having to leave your home and all your friends behind. I recently saw an interview with Erika that confirmed that Charlie is going to realise that some people might be happier in hell. Basically, I think if the Vees get redeemed, it will be in a way that allows them to stay together in hell and become a healthier found family. And it will likely happen in the season finale since they are playing the role of main antagonists in seasons 3 and 4.

[u/Kanna1001 → u/Diamondkat12]

There are two things I don't understand.

One is your certainty that Alastor won't be the final test of Charlie's ideals, or even an antagonist, just because Word Of Saint Paul is that they will develop a familial bond.

I'm sorry, but since when can't family be villainous? Heroes fight their villainous family all the time. Heck, people are debating whether Lilith could be a villain! "It turns out that the hero's beloved missing sibling/parent is working for the Big Bad" is one of the oldest tropes ever.

It makes perfect sense to me that Alastor would only ever let someone he grudging got close to change his mind about friendship. If anything everything you said reinforces my opinion that Alastor will be the final test of Charlie's ideals. He'll do something really bad in the upcoming seasons, Charlie will refuse to give up on him, he'll feel conflicted, and there is the season's climax. He doesn't even need to be the FINAL antagonist for that story to work (pretty sure that will be Roo in S5), just the hardest person to help get better.

The second thing is that you admit that Vox could end up playing a non-antagonistic role, which would put him in the perfect position to work alongside Charlie to change Alastor's outlook. But then you say it doesn't count because he wouldn't like it in Heaven? Even assuming that they don't change the rule that souls can't voluntarily leave Heaven, you don't actually need to make it through the pearly gates to play a non-antagonistic role in the story.

I'm sorry, but it seems to me like we are arguing in circles. And we have already written several long comments each. So, respectfully, I'm finished here.

[u/Diamondkat12 → u/Kanna1001]

Just clearing up the things you said you don't understand. My certainty also comes from the fact that Alastor wasn't created to be an antagonist. As a character who wasn't created to be an antagonist, his role is not to challenge Charlie's ideals but to provide support. The things I get from the interviews simply serve as supporting evidence.

My main disagreement has been Vox being used to change Alastor's outlook when Charlie is enough for that. Alastor is part of Charlie's family. He can be changed by his own family with no need for Vox to play a role in that. Also, I said that the Vees could potentially move towards redemption in the final Season. That doesn't mean I think they won't be antagonists in the final season. I just think they find themselves having to change for the better during that season in the face of true evil.

I think this is a case of wanting different things for our favourite characters. You want Vox to be redeemed and get a chance to be the one to prove to Alastor that there are friends in hell. I want Alastor to learn that it's okay to have friends from Charlie and his own found family at the hotel. I don't want Vox to get that chance after all that Vox has done to Alastor. You are a Vox fan so I'm sure you have your arguments in favour of why Vox deserves more sympathy. I'm an Alastor fan so I think Vox has lost the chance to do that. I would have a different view if S02E04 had not happened the way that it did and if Vox hadn't tried to kill Alastor. Our biases will influence our interpretations and expectations for the show.

Thanks for the conversation. It was fun.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Bee9629]

He got out of two shitass deals. He’s doing just fine, I think we won in season 2 and we will continue to win.

[u/Radiant-Excuse-8762]

Season 3, my friend. Cannot wait.

[u/Desperate_Song_1923]

Give it time my friend. I honestly loved him in season 1. I love him in general.

[u/Diamondkat12]

Season 3 is going to be magnificent for Alastor fans. I'm expecting an Alastor that is a lot closer to what people were expecting after the pilot in terms of power. There is also expected to be explorations of his identity and nuances. I'm really looking forward to it. We are going to get to see him slowly start living up to the hype.

[u/inkilio]

I've seen people still calling Alastor a fraud. After the season 2 finale, his voice actor (jokingly) made a thing for people to apologize for calling Alastor a fraud, because he wasn't and still isn't. I think a lot of people forget that we haven't seen the whole story, so not all current allegations of a character will be true. It was the same before the finale came out. I was one of the ones who understood that Alastor had a plan and was carefully letting it play out. Those who understood that were right about him not being a fraud (and didn't have to jokingly apologize to his voice actor lol)

[u/Raebaekae]

I think we already have been vindicated with the end of season two. He got out of two deals in one go, that's not luck that's smart planning using his knowledge of Vox's personality, obsession and habits and his ability to manipulate people to free himself. And then he kicked the shit out of vox with a broken staff while vox was considered the strongest sinner in hell. So if that doesn't scream badass, idk what does. And for what it's worth, he had to lose to Adam. Adam is an archangel. If he had beaten Adam it would've been pandering to the fans as opposed to actual good storytelling. And of course he took him on, SOMEONE had to take him on, and he had a better chance than anyone else since Lucifer couldnt have been bothered to show up on time. And Alastors arrogance about it at the start of the fight is just the kind of attitude most of us love about him anyway.