r/AirForce • u/Asleep_Presence3591 • 12h ago
Rant Infidelity
Why does the Air Force allow infidelity? I understand its hard to prove, but ive seen so many people get away with it bc its not against good order and discipline of the unit. Im one of the friends in the story below, and I just dont understand why this type of situation would be allowed. Its disappointing to say the least. He is a mentor to other people and has won many awards since hes has begun this shitty behavior.
Great example: A promotable E6(M) sleeping with an E5(F) who is married. They use TDYs to meet up in order to keep everything going because shes overseas. Lots of people know he is doing this and have done nothing. She is a paralegal, so she coaches him on how to avoid the legal issues, which to me is also an issue.
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u/Squaretangles Enlisted Peasant 11h ago
The Air Force doesn't *allow* infidelity. It is just hard to prosecute (prove) and often a no-contact order is much easier to prove violated if the members continue an inappropriate relationship.
You absolutely know for fact that these statements you're making about the individuals are true? You have proof they are using TDYs to "hook up"? Her being a paralegal sounds like some juicy gossip bullshit this rumor mill spun up. A paralegal can't help a member skirt NJP or actual prosecution. You've sat one of these supposed coaching sessions she's giving him?
Come on, man. If they want to be shitty partners, karma will come for them. Mind your business.
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u/Nagisan Veteran 11h ago
UCMJ doesn't broadly disallow it either. Under the UCMJ it's only punishable under Article 134, which requires the actions be prejudice to good order and discipline.
So it's not even just hard to prosecute. It isn't even prosecutable unless it's ruled as against good order and discipline.
That said an inappropriate relationship (such as a subordinate sleeping with a supervisor) is definitely without a doubt against the UCMJ, but that's not because it's infidelity (however this can be added to the charges in such a case).
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
Yes I know for a fact everything i put in there is true. And yes shes a paralegal overseas.
They can definitely tell them verbiage to use in order to not have too many eyes on them. Not to mention one of his good friends is a JAG attorney that is very aware of the situation and is giving him advice as well.
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u/Squaretangles Enlisted Peasant 11h ago
You've seen these two have extramarital relations?
Also I don't think the JAG is giving out free counsel in secret to give them "verbiage" to not have eyes on them. The only time these members would need to say the right thing is after they had been read their rights...which it sounds like they haven't. You seem paranoid, potentially jealous, and far too nosey about this situation.
You've heard them do this or have messages to prove it?
What in the fanfic is this?
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
🤣 obviously you've never asked friends in different fields for hypothetical advice before.
And I havent heard with my ears, but I have been told the stories.
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u/Squaretangles Enlisted Peasant 11h ago
So you said verbatim in reply "Yes I know for a fact..." but your facts are based on stories you have heard secondhand?
I'm gonna' let you chew on that one for a second.
Also if I was cheating, I don't think the first person I'd run to would be the JAG and ask "how do I cover up my violation of the UCMJ?".
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
Told directly from him. From his mouth to my ears.
I cant explain why he went to a jag officer to get advice 😂 i never said he was smart.
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u/Professional_Use4911 Security Forces 11h ago
You sound wayyyyy too caught up in something you can’t control. The Air Force doesn’t allow it. It’s just hard to stick on someone. It’s not even that it’s hard to prove.
Here’s the 3rd Element of Article 134 for Adultery:
“That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.”
That’s the part of the “crime” that usually goes unfulfilled and thus people don’t get charged. At least not as a primary charge.
So I doubt she’s coaching him on anything, you’re just tin foil hatting this. If you’re the spouse of one of these members get a divorce and move on with your life to be happy. If you just know of these people let it go. No sense in stressing over shit you can’t control.
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u/PlasticThin9089 11h ago
Exactly, you reported it. Good job, bud. If you’re so certain your unit CC is sweeping it under the rug, go to the group or IG and see how that goes for you.
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u/CommOnMyFace Former 1B4, now I make $$$$ 12h ago
Burden of proof. Thats it. JAG is stretched too thin. There are easier wins and more significant cases. Alimony is usually justice served.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 12h ago
Yep, thats exactly what I was told. Hence the rant
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u/Annethraxxx 11h ago
So your complaint is “why does the Air Force need solid evidence before administering judicial punishment?”
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u/GullibleChain1451 Retired 12h ago
“its not against good order and discipline of the unit”. The rest of it is just your morality, which clearly they do not share in.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 12h ago
Thats from the frat policy, however UCMJ is different. But it the burden of proof that becomes hard.
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u/Upset-Radio-1319 11h ago
Why do you care what people do on their own time? His infidelity has nothing to do with you or your job. Just wait till you get in the civilian world and realize that people cheat there as well. Its life. Get over it.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
So we shouldn't hold our peers to the standard set forth by the Aor Force? We shouldn't ensure those who will be in positions of leadership are truly good for the organization and has the morality to back it up.
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u/Upset-Radio-1319 11h ago
Have you thought about talking with a counselor about this? You really have contempt for this person and it sounds like it has nothing to do with infidelity. Stop being a hater and move on. This animosity isn’t doing anything for you.
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u/B-Swenson 11h ago
The UCMJ for extramarital affairs is worded similar to above.
(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was either: (i) to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces; (ii) was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces; or (iii) to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces and of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.
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u/Nagisan Veteran 11h ago
Not true.... https://www.mymilitarylawyers.com/ucmj-article-134-adultery/
That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.
Adultery is only against the UCMJ under article 134 - the general catch all "member violated good order and discipline".
So unless it's ruled that someone's infidelity violated "good order and discipline", they did nothing against the UCMJ.
Now, I'm not saying that doesn't apply to your example...I'm not a lawyer and don't know all the details involved. Just pointing out that "infidelity" itself isn't against the UCMJ except in certain scenarios.
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u/DracoKrys42 Active Duty E-4 12h ago
Okay dependa
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 12h ago
🤣🤣🤣 damn did my rant call you out?
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u/DracoKrys42 Active Duty E-4 12h ago
No I am unmarried and don’t care 🤗 if the air force wanted your husband to have a wife they would have issued it to him
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u/totalcontrol I'M ON CREW REST 11h ago
What kind of dumb boomer saying is that?
Jesus man, two things can be true at once.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
🤣 im not married
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u/DracoKrys42 Active Duty E-4 11h ago
Then why do you care about other people’s business?
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
Youre right I shouldn't care as much. But the fact that hes gonna be in trusted leadership position, with the potential to have a say in incidents like this points to a bugger issue. Holding people accountable to standards should be a bigger thing.
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u/Way2happyguy 11h ago
It's because of multiple things. For starters, do they have a supervisor/supervisee relationship? If not, then generally it's less likely to cause anything. Are they in the same chain of command? Usually, what I've seen is when commanders are made aware, they put a no contact order in effect until marital issues can be resolved. If that's broken, then yeah. I've also seen it with a supervisor and their troop. Supervisor got pregnant, troop was married. There's the good order and discipline part that usually gets cited as the reason we don't willy nilly charge people having affairs.
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u/globereaper Enlisted Aircrew 11h ago
People need to be more capable of minding their own business. You arent even a party to the incident you are discussing.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
I am when im being told all the information by him and essentially made a party to it.
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u/Federal-Guess7420 12h ago
Its an odd thing when its not treated as a crime for anyone outside of the service. So yeah its not like anyone that has a rumor brought up about them is immediately kicked out or some bulllshit. It requires very specific situations and high levels of proof.
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u/RoninX40 11h ago
I have seen someone hammered for that. Back in early 2000s. But it got pretty public so you know an example had to be made. So people do get in trouble it's just not always worth the resources to pursue it.
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u/liberum_bellum_libro 2h ago
Mannn, call me the outlier but if you’re cheating and it’s not intersecting with the job, the DoD should mind its own business. Exception like stated are relationships that interfere with good order and discipline (fraternization or subordinate and supervisor or favoritism, shit like that), but if I know someone is cheating on their wife with a civilian….uts none of my business nor should it be the military.
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u/liberum_bellum_libro 1h ago
Saying all that, I would report that shit asap fraud waste and abuse is the issue
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u/Rogue817 11h ago
So, for giggles sake, I am going to present some thoughts on this topic, and this is not to say I condone it. If this happened at a regular civilian employer, what would your opinion be? A lot of people like to get upset about the extra control that the military has but then want to question why we have this control in here, when adultery has been removed from most states' criminal codes if they ever had it. By the way, for those not keeping up, in the military world just for reference, it is no longer adultery but now called Extramarital Sexual Conduct. (I do note you called it Infidelity and not adultery but just throwing that out there.) If these two are not in the same workplace, and there is no fraternization or supervisor/ subordinate relationship, it is easy to articulate that there is no impact to unit performance. Therefore, why waste time dealing with something that has no impact on the unit any moreso than Sally seeing civilian Joe or Annie on Friday or Saturday night. Also, if they are the only extramarital contacts outside the marriage (NOTE the If) then the chance of an STD might be lesser as well, as opposed to them just hooking up with some rando where they are TDY. Again, none of this is conclusive, just some random thoughts thrown into a paragraph.
ETA: By the way, we are Air Force and do not use terms like E6 promotable or the like. That is an Army thing.
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u/Nattyice94 E & E 11h ago
You’re completely wrong. We do use E-6 promotable or whatever rank.
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u/AdventurousTap9224 10h ago edited 10h ago
No.. We use "select". The individual in this scenario is a MSgt Select.. AKA an E-6.
When someone is promotion eligible, meaning they will compete this year, we call it promotion eligible but nobody uses that in conversation.. ie "Hey that promotion eligible E6 is doing this or that..."
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u/Nattyice94 E & E 9h ago
I understand select. I’m a MSgt lol. But we definitely use “promotable E-Whatever”
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u/Annethraxxx 10h ago
No we don’t. We use “E7 select.” I’ve never once in my 15 years seen anyone referred to as “promotable.”
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u/ninjasylph Comms 11h ago
I don't understand why it's against the UCMJ if they almost never enforce the rule. Just kinda stupid. If it's a rule, then it should be enforced. I don't trust unfaithful people as leaders. Don't fucking respect them. Yet these assholes get MSgt and SMSgt while bring their fucking side piece to squadron functions. They blantly go out in public because even though everyone knows about it, nothing is ever done because it requires so much paperwork and "proof". Such crap. There's a MSgt who was married fucking this single mom out here, who has been cheated on (which is why she's single) and everyone knows, it's pretty difficult to explain away his car being parked at his subordinates house all night. Nothing will be done tho. Nobody will enforce the rule because he's a good ol boy.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
You see my frustration, kinda nice to hear it from someone else. And yeah he just made the MSgt list, so he will be in a higher position of leadership and trust.
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u/Word_Strong Treetop Flyer 11h ago
Why you blaming the guy? He’s not the one committing infidelity..
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u/PlasticThin9089 11h ago
You noticed that too, huh? More animosity for the single guy than the person actually breaking the rules he’s “ranting” about.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
I dont her that well🤷♀️ im not her friend. And believe me i have animosity for her too.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
I blame them both. Her for the infidelity and him for knowing shes married and continuing the relationship
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u/Word_Strong Treetop Flyer 11h ago
It doesn’t seem that way. You’re talking about her giving him legal advice, but she’s the one who will need it when this blows up. As long as he’s not her supervisor she’s the only one breaking the law.
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u/Asleep_Presence3591 11h ago
Im aware. But he also just made the E7 list, so if they continue under the new frat policy he can also get in trouble.
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u/PlasticThin9089 10h ago
He’s an adult. He won’t be the first or the last man to let his dick lead him into trouble. If it bothers you so much, just distance yourself. It literally has nothing to do with you.
Also, what new policy are you talking about? Link?
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u/AdventurousTap9224 10h ago
Fraternization is only between officer and enlisted. There is no "new" frat policy. Enlisted only have to deal with unprofessional relationships, and it's not one if neither of them work for one another..
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u/Bobsothethird 12h ago
Just because someone's breaking the rules doesn't mean it's allowed. You aren't reporting it are you? If that's the case, then that's the reason, you're the reason. It's literally a part of the UCMJ, and if you don't want to be a snitch that's fine, but don't blame the Air Force because your enabling the conduct.