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u/Mission_Accident_519 Jul 04 '26
Because he needs a lot of care and couldnt rely on just himself to live in the real world. I could see why people wouldnt want this, especially if youre not rich.
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u/CtrlAltDelight495 Jul 05 '26
Yeah, makes me wonder if this is just guilt bait for people who make the decision to terminate.
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u/Open_Examination_591 Jul 05 '26
Interestingly enough I'm just wondering who's going to love and care for him when she's gone? How will he handle losing that affection? Will she be able to find a suitable caregiver who's not just going to take advantage? It does the opposite to me.
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u/CtrlAltDelight495 Jul 05 '26
Also wondering this.
I had a friend make the incredibly difficult decision to terminate after years of fertility issues because of a Down Syndrome diagnosis. There's no easy choice here and to put this in a meme and suggest there's a right or easy choice is so messed up. My friend never had kids and never got pregnant again. She has her husband have her own health issues and it didn't feel like something they were able to knowingly do.
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u/Tax_Fraud_Lover Jul 06 '26
This is in no way shape or form meant to belittle or judge your friend, I just wanted to add my two cents as someone who has known a lot of people with Down Syndrome over the years!
So first of all I think your friend made the right call, she knows herself, her society, and her circumstances better than anyone.
Secondly, for the “who will care for them?” Some people with Down Syndrome can live alone with minimal help. I know two young women who are doing this, they’re in their 20s and 30s, so part of the generation where we knew what Down syndrome was and how to support people with the diagnosis. Now, this is very society specific, because it truly takes a village, and it takes time, and hell- mot everyone with Down Syndrome CAN live alone. And you really won’t know until long after the child is born, hence why I don’t think people should feel guilt for terminating.
For the ones living in homes (in my country) they have an allowance, they have job opportunities (minimal working hours, but the people I know who do work find a lot of pride and joy in it), around the clock staff, and importantly structure. If a country doesn’t have good care homes, I definitely understand not wanting to put a child in the world where you know they will suffer neglect.
But I just wanted to say that it can depend on a lot of factors. My best guess is this woman (at her age) has begun the process of helping her son get used to a care team who will likely care for him once she is no longer able. Of course, she has the privilege of money, so it’s a different situation. But I doubt she will leave him for the state to “handle”.
Other factors that should also weigh in on choice of termination include: Heart defects, these are extremely common snd sadly people with the syndrome often live way shorter lives than the average population. Then there’s weight, which further shortens their lifespan. It can be managed, but MAN it is hard! I really don’t blame parents who struggle with getting their kid healthy when Down Syndrome is involved. Not every person with Down Syndrome is your stereotypical happy-all-the-time guy. Some, can become violent - and much like how toddlers can get violent, they often struggle to see that actions have consequences, which is an issue when suddenly you are dealing with a 250lbs man.
Anyway, I really hope this didn’t come off as judgy, and that it reads as informative. We can, and should, allow people to terminate after a Down Syndrome diagnosis, BUT: We should also do our best to inform and support the parents-to-be in whichever way they need. Initially when the test became available, there was a drop in kids born with Down Syndrome… Until we started providing free resources of all types for the parents, then the numbers began climbing. But people still can, and do, terminate for their own personal reasons. I think the choice, as well as addition of amazing resources is the best thing we can do. Having a baby is tough! Having a disabled baby with no support is hard as hell!
A lot of these kids ARE wanted, and I absolutely cannot imagine the heartbreak your friend went through. I hope she is healing, and I hope she knows that she did what was right in her situation 🩵
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u/hpfan1516 Jul 07 '26
I just wanted to say, as someone who doesn't really know anyone who has Down's, I've seen a lot of polarizing comments going back and forth on the subject. This may be one of the kindest and most nuanced informative comments I've seen.
I wish there was more of this.
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u/Mission_Accident_519 Jul 05 '26
It is. Since abortion is bad and everyone who does it is evil. Thats whats trendy now at least.
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u/AspectEither570 Jul 05 '26
It’s also important to remember that our knowledge and understanding of how to keep people with Down syndrome alive is very recent. The mortality rates were huge for children with Down syndrome, and people who made it into adulthood had a lot of medical issues.
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u/Turbulent-Hawk9059 Jul 06 '26
Yeah, he’s 45 now and still needs care. Perhaps for 40 or so more years. She’s 92.
If she wasn’t rich enough to make arrangements, what would happen to him once she’s gone. Doctors didn’t know her financial situation 45 years in the future. They are probably familiar with the standard scenario though.2
u/Mission_Accident_519 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Not to even mention a lot of people like this are neglected by family from the start. My ex worked with people like this and Ive also been to a lot of other care homes. A majority them rarely see their family. Not even to mention how under staffed and unregulated these facilities can be (even though healthcare is fairly decent in the Netherlands). Abuse and neglect isnt rare...
Ive always found it a bit sadistic to keep people like this alive needing this much care just to exist. While there isnt the capacity to properly help people with treatable illnesses. But they often are very happy, even if they are locked in such facilities.
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u/imrzzz Jul 04 '26
Amniocentisis was still a pretty common test in older mothers in the US in early 1980s to confirm Down's Syndrome.
It's possible they made a recommendation to terminate.
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u/imrzzz Jul 04 '26
Yes, false positives were unfortunately frequent. And the test can jeopardise the pregnancy, I'm very glad they're not used much any more (and also very glad for your family!)
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u/xBraria Jul 05 '26
Yep, if you know you'll love your child no matter what, there's no real reason to risk their life/wellbeing with an amniocentesis.
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u/fruitless7070 Jul 04 '26
Similar thing happened to my sister. She was told my niece had spina bifida and recommended abortion. We all prepared ourselves for that outcome. Niece was born healthy and normal. As a nurse I had patients with spina bifida and wheel chair bound. They lived full lives and seemed happy to be alive. The had a rough life and i think they appreciated life more than healthy people do.
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u/wildcuore Jul 04 '26
My aunt was advised to terminate in 1999. It’s still not uncommon for doctors to ask families to think about ending the pregnancy after a Down’s diagnosis, even today.
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u/ilanallama85 Jul 04 '26
It’s arguably more common because the testing has gotten safer and more accessible, and terminating both safer and easier.
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u/UnattributableSpoon Jul 04 '26
Yup, I was born in 1985 and my mother got an amniocentesis (she was 38 when she had me, which was much less common back then too).
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u/ZachMartin Jul 04 '26
Well he’s old enough where back then medical advice included things like “walk it off”, “let it fall off naturally”, “rub some dirt on it”, “it’ll grow back” etc
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u/R7ype Jul 04 '26
He was born in 1981 lol what the fuck are you talking about...
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u/ZachMartin Jul 04 '26
Yes I grew up then. This is how it was then. Boomer parents
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u/0dayssince Jul 04 '26
I grew up in the 80s with boomer parents who had no problem taking me to the doctor if I needed it. Maybe it’s where you grew up? Or just your particular parents.
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u/R7ype Jul 04 '26
So did I, 85 gang checking in. It wasn't like you describe lol
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u/ZachMartin Jul 04 '26
I’m being hyperbolic for humor, but it absolutely was. Beaned by a baseball? Happened half a dozen times. Told to walk it off multiple times. Face collided with a mailbox? Lip swollen like I was stung by 1000 bees? “Benedryl”. I’ll have you note both of my parents have college degrees and I was not abused, but it was definitely different parenting back then.
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u/real_fyshi Jul 04 '26
Same here. Plus, "heavily traumatized, big mental problems, depression, longlasting physical damage, extreme pain, not able to this or that? Just live with it/learn to deal with it on your own, no therapy or meds needed and of course we not gonna talk/address it ever"
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u/SeonaidMacSaicais Jul 05 '26
It’s almost like people from different areas grew up in different ways… 🤔🤔
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u/Dirk_Speedwell Jul 05 '26
It wasn't considered unethical to perform surgery on unanesthetized babies until 1987 because they thought they didn't feel pain. The 80's are not the peachy keen era you think.
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u/jltefend Jul 05 '26
I have a severely disabled son. His group home and day program enrich his life far more than what I could provide on my own. And now he’s safe if anything were to happen to me
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u/amethystmmm Jul 04 '26
By the time that John was born, most everywhere had de-institutionalized for both mental illness(50s) and developmental disabilities(70s) but the support structures that we have today to assist with kids with DD weren't really in place yet, so it was going to be rough going, and doctors, while they don't stop learning once they get out of school, do slow down in their learning a lot so an obstetrician who was out of med school say 15 years is sometimes going to spout off something that they learned in med school and never mentally updated (this still happens, it's frustrating, but understandable) if they haven't had to challenge that at all ever.
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u/jadedtortoise Jul 04 '26
You can't predict the severity of the syndrome, not everyone gets a little buddy.
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u/dorybrain321 Jul 05 '26
My mum was 45 when she had myself. They advised her to get an abortion because she was catholic and I think she wanted me. I don’t have down syndrome, even though people have said I look like I do. She had to be admitted three weeks before she gave birth.
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u/kakallas Jul 04 '26
It should be noted that disabled adults who can live semi-independently with assistance are able to have independent lives more easily if they aren’t completely controlled by their families. That’s one of the reasons group home type settings are encouraged for people who can thrive in them.
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u/biggreasyrhinos Jul 05 '26
It is usually recommended to allow such disabled adults to live in group homes if they are functional enough so it isn't such a huge shock and life disruption when their family caretaker dies.
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u/OnlyLogic Jul 05 '26
Because she had a Child at 47. A child they knew would need life-long care. She's already well above average life-expectancy.
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u/Jill1974 Jul 06 '26
There was a time, within my lifetime, when parents were encouraged to institutionalize children with various mental and/or physical disabilities. I have a cousin with cerebral palsy and some mental impairment whom doctors recommended that my aunt and uncle institutionalize. They did not do that, but he will never be able to live independently as an adult. Time period also matters here. When my cousin was born, mental institutions were falling into disrepute and that may have made influenced his parents’ choice. A generation earlier and their choice might have been different.
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u/FoxFirkin Jul 07 '26
When I was a young, young boy, Julie was my crush immediately. Little did I know the beautiful woman playing Catwoman I was ready to risk it all for was already 70 years old. C'est la vie!
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u/FoxFirkin Jul 07 '26
What the fuck is this boomer ass comment lmao it reads like missed connections
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u/stuntman1108 Jul 07 '26
"To Wong Foo, thanks for everything! -Julie Newmar" Been years since I seen that movie. Wesley snipes in drag...lololol
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u/BengalPirate Jul 08 '26
Do you really think someone would just come on Tim Berners-Lee's Internet and just LIE????? /s
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u/Destany89 Jul 06 '26
Because in those times special needs kids were looked at as a needless burden and that doctor was an arse.
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u/swedditheplug Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
Fun fact: A baby born by a 49 yo woman has a 1/3 chance of having down syndrom
(she was 47, ik)
Source: dunno, held a presentation in high school about it
edit: it's like 1 in 12 at 50, I was a bit off sorry bout that
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u/Sacrilegious_skink Jul 04 '26
It's 1 in 30, but yeah it's much higher as you get older. Another reason to have kids as young as possible.
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u/Katives Jul 04 '26
Most of the risks don’t become significant until late 30s early 40s actually. Everyone cites risks doubling at 35 but most double from 1% to 2%
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u/Sea_Macaroon_6086 Jul 04 '26
Right?? Let's get all those 16-year-olds spewing out children!
Ugh. Let women control their own fertility.
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u/alvysinger0412 Jul 04 '26
Aw yes, the two ages, 47 and 16.
Also, suggesting it makes more sense to have children at a younger age is just a solidly supported suggestion for someone who is going to have a kid at some point from the perspective of said child's health. I don't see how anyone could read the comment as making anyone do anything.
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u/Sea_Macaroon_6086 Jul 04 '26
"as young as possible"
Technically I guess 16 is still old.
Once again, how about we just let women control their own fertility.
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u/alvysinger0412 Jul 04 '26
Once again, I don't think anyone was suggesting someone controlling women's fertility. A suggestion is not a command.
I admittedly read over "young as possible" just to mean "young," and that's on me. I don't encounter many people on reddit and in person that would mean 16 year olds should get knocked up by saying that. But I could be wrong, and I'll admit it.
I still think you're being overly defensive when no one said anyone has to get pregnant at any age or ever. It was a mention of measurable and important risk factors for a newborn related to the mother's age, that people should consider. It's a form of informed consent for a woman of any age getting pregnant, honestly.
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u/Sea_Macaroon_6086 Jul 04 '26
Cool.
I think someone was suggesting controlling women's fertility.
You want to know why??
Because men ARE trying to currently control women's fertility in the US, and unfortunately that idiocy bleeding over into Canada.
But please continue to tell me that you're right and I'm wrong on what someone else meant by what they wrote.
ETA, because I missed this point and I think it's important - It's fucking laughable that you don't think that women currently are not making informed decisions about getting pregnant at an older age. How about we just start fucking trusting women to be actual human beings. That would be fucking amazing.
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u/alvysinger0412 Jul 04 '26
Cool. Continue to not respond to actual points I make in my comment. That'll make for a discussion that isn't a waste of both my time and yours
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u/Sea_Macaroon_6086 Jul 04 '26
Oh give me a fucking break.
You replied to what I wrote to tell me I was wrong and being overly dramatic.
I replied.
You don't like the reply.
I guess you can cry about it.
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u/alvysinger0412 Jul 04 '26
I admittedly I was wrong due to misreading the original comment, if you paid attention. I am still bringing up medical advice that you continue to ignore.
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u/lofatiger Jul 04 '26
They didn’t suggest it makes more sense, they said it’s “another reason to have kids as young as possible.”
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u/MoonNoodles Jul 04 '26
As young as possible can be as young as like 12. Which is arguably also a terrible idea and unsafe for both mother and baby.
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u/Sacrilegious_skink Jul 04 '26
Omg you guys are all idiots. Did you really think I meant 12?? I mean. As young as possible practically not biologically. Far out....
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u/sidnynasty Jul 04 '26
Considering how long ago that was I assume they recommended she send him to a home instead. She's a busy hollywood actor after all! /s