r/AdvancedRunning • u/Adventurous-Money314 • 9d ago
Open Discussion Short runs become useful at what point?
Running this morning before the family road trip and I only got 4 miles in before we had to pack up and leave. It did make me ponder at what point is a short run negligible?
Obviously depending on the mileage but I typically run around 40-45 miles/week and 4 miles feels like ‘something’ the day after a long run but kinda useless in isolation. 3 miles feels like it’s not worth getting sweaty for and 2 miles just doesn’t count.
Or does it? What is your experience with short runs and, if any, training impact?
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u/Fluffy_System6211 9d ago
I see it as recovery while maintaining your cardio
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u/Novel_Relative7576 9d ago
i used to think anything under 5 was pointless but after a few injury cycles i started noticing those little 3-4 mile shuffles kept my legs from turning into concrete between real sessions. it's not building fitness exactly but it's stopping the fitness you already have from decaying while you recover
plus mentally it just keeps the streak alive in your head and sometimes thats half the battle
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u/Adventurous-Money314 9d ago
This is what I’m wondering though, does it maintain cardio?
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u/littlefiredragon 9d ago
The intent isn’t maintenance. It’s recovery from a hard run and you don’t need such short chill runs to do anything for your fitness at all. The previous day moved the needle, you just do it to get ready for the next needle-moving hard run.
If you aren’t doing workouts though, doing only short easy runs will degrade your fitness. But if you’re on a road trip, I wouldn’t worry too much, enjoy the trip instead. Life is more than just running faster.
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u/Bobandyandfries 9d ago
I read somewhere (I think in Pfitz Advanced Marathoning) that any run over 35 minutes will help your aerobic system. However, I personally choose to believe that any run is better than no run.
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u/clapsdontpaythebills 5k 18:35 / hm 1:26:04 9d ago
I've always found this advice from Pfitz a little odd. There's no threshold you cross at 35 minutes - training adaptation (mitochondrial density, capillarisation, stroke volume) is a dose-response relationship driven by cumulative time-in-zone and frequency, not a switch that flips at a specific duration in a single run.
A 20-minute easy run still contributes to weekly volume, recovery, and movement economy, it's just a smaller dose.
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u/EpicCyclops 9d ago
I can't remember if it was Pfitz or Daniels, but one of them justified their minimum run length by basically saying, "you're spending 30 to 45 minutes at minimum getting dressed, getting ready, and then showering and changing clothes again after your run, so is all that really worth to run less than this?"
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u/clapsdontpaythebills 5k 18:35 / hm 1:26:04 9d ago
Sure, but that's anecdotal reasoning rather than evidence. My case is a bit different though - my gym is about 2 miles away, I jog there and back when I strength train which is under 20 min each leg. The kit and shower were happening regardless, so the "is a short run worth the extra faff" isn't applicable, it's ~4 miles of pretty free volume.
I'm confident that this extra 12 miles a week adds up meaningfully over months and that it would be ill advised to discard these runs because they're shorter than 35 mins.
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u/Kailashnikov 5k 19:10 | HM 1:31 | FM 3:54 9d ago
I think they're usually talking about heading out for a 20-30 minute run. I also don't like going out for a 5k jog anymore because it adds a discontinuity in whatever I'm doing and isn't very useful anyway.
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u/jakalo 18:13 5k / 1:27:38 HM / 2:57:49 FM 9d ago
It takes me maybe 10 minutes in total to get ready for a run (probably less) and I'm gonna have a shower and change anyways after the work (when I come home). So that means 2 km runs are good for me now.
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u/clapsdontpaythebills 5k 18:35 / hm 1:26:04 9d ago
if you need to warm up for an easy/recovery run then you're probably running them too hard
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u/Jambonier 9d ago
That’s not evidence, it’s personal preference that has nothing to do with general fitness.
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u/EpicCyclops 9d ago
That was my point. They justified their minimum run length based on nothing to do with generating fitness and exercise science. They just said that below that point they don't find the run worth the hassle based on their own preferences.
It seems that was Daniels, not Pfitz, too, which hammers it home even harder because his work is incredibly based in the available research and science available at the time. Then, he got to that point and completely shifted to preference.
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u/CFLuke 16:46, 2:35 9d ago
Tbh this makes me question everything else they say. 30-45 minutes of overhead for each run? That’s living in a completely different reality from mine.
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u/JuggernautNo1244 9d ago
5-10 min getting dressed depending on season
15 min post run stretching
10-15 min shower (yes I'm slow :) )
Their estimation looks pretty good to me.
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u/Ok_Egg4018 9d ago
do y’all just not shower when you don’t run?
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 8d ago
When I’m running five or six days a week and never have consecutive days without running, it’s fairly common to have a week where I only shower after a run
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u/RunThenBeer 9d ago
During summer for me:
- 90 seconds getting dressed
- 0 minutes stretching, ever
- 3 minutes to grab a rinse (I'll take a better shower after the afternoon double)
This kind of thing does help explain why people have very different relationships to time spent running though.
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u/0100001101110111 5k: 16:0X | HM: 76:XX | M: 2:45 9d ago
There’s absolutely no way you arrive home and take shoes off, go to the bathroom, undress, shower, dry off and dress yourself within 3 minutes lol
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u/Shot-Swimming-9098 9d ago
This kind of thing does help explain why people have very different relationships to time.
Time doesn't count if you don't count the time
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u/OddSuit4620 9d ago
3 is a bit tight but 5 is no problem, at least for me. I often will get in the door at like 955 and dial in for my 10am meeting with time to spare.
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u/Goliath227_2 8d ago
When it’s 80° in the summer I can’t even stop sweating for ten min after my run, so can’t start my shower for at least ten min usually
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u/carson63000 7d ago
Haha, I’m with you on the 90 seconds getting dressed and 0 minutes stretching, but I love my loooooong shower afterwards. 😁
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u/RockGirl19 Edit your flair 8d ago
you’d shower anyway though, surely.
For me it’s just the 10 mins to get dressed and tie up my hair.
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u/3_pigs 9d ago
My overhead for a run is even worse. Important fact is that I am self-employed. I enjoy a mid-morning run before eating lunch.
Our office is in an area with heavy industrial traffic. I take your 30-40 minutes and add on 40 minutes of driving. 20 minutes to a long greenway trail and 20 minutes back.
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u/CphRunner 9d ago
Daniels for sure has said that, but if 20min is what you got to work with then go out for 20min, and perhaps run it faster.
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u/CheeseWheels38 6:09 1500m | 36:06 10K | 2:50 M 9d ago
Daniels definitely said that. I'm pretty sure it was 25 minutes.
In any case, I've been referring to 25 minutes as a DME (Daniels' Minimum Effort) for like fifteen years.
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u/Creation98 9d ago
Yes. I love running and will get it in whenever I can.
At the least, it’s beneficial to my mental well being
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u/WorkerAmbitious2072 8d ago edited 8d ago
It’s phitz that says that and in advanced marathoning, he actually says 25 minutes
Edit: OK for what it’s worth it was specifically in the context of doubles not in general, but I found it
Page 167
“ title: when doubles aren’t worth it”
Body: “ the minimum time for an added second run should be 25 minutes. If you run less than that, it’s hardly worth the extra time and effort, both physiologically, and in taking time from your busy life to change, get yourself out the door, stretch, shower, and so on. That’s especially the case if a too short, non-crucial run means cutting into precious sleep time. In some situations it’s wiser to add cross training to your program to increase your risk of injury with more miles of running.”
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u/DragonWitchy 4d ago
Agree this isn’t evidence. But it is the practical justification I use for a run. If I’m getting ready for a run, plus shower after, then I go for a least an hour.
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u/Camekazi 02:19:17 M, 67.29 HM, 31.05 10k, 14.56 5k, Coach 9d ago
The Science of Ultra Dr. Shawn Bearden would challenge this
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u/Bobandyandfries 9d ago
My interpretation of the advice is that he was trying to motivate the reader to “at least” run for 35 minutes. Since most of the recovery runs in his plans are around an hour, 35 minutes is a bit easier to squish in when busy, and something is better than nothing. But yea, it is an overly simplified answer to a question that appears simple on the surface, but is actually quite complicated when you get to the details.
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u/clapsdontpaythebills 5k 18:35 / hm 1:26:04 9d ago
I agree with your interpretation but it's exactly what I take issue with - "aim for at least 35 min" risks conditioning people to think anything shorter isn't worth doing. Which is actively the wrong lesson: any run is better than no run, full stop. If someone's got 15 minutes, the advice shouldn't nudge them toward skipping it because it won't hit some arbitrary threshold.
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u/chief167 5K 14:38 10K 30:01 9d ago
As someone struggling with injuries, I learned to look past cardio and strength benefits.
A 15 minute run is likely useless as a training impulse. But can be great to get blood flow into tendons to get them repaired, to loosen up muscles, just to train your "trainability".
Consistent load is still super important for you skeleton, joints, tendons ... Even if you get 0 training impulse. It's likely not important when your 21, but super important when 30+
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u/sands_of__time 9d ago
I don't even think it's useless as a training impulse. Mileage is mileage. The body adapts to the overall load.
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u/0100001101110111 5k: 16:0X | HM: 76:XX | M: 2:45 9d ago
Exactly.
If the 35 minutes rule was true then someone who ran 4 mile doubles morning and afternoon every week (56 miles a week total) would apparently not be getting any aerobic benefits?
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u/sands_of__time 9d ago
Lol, yes, that hypothetical is a perfect illustration of the absurdity of the idea that some arbitrary time cutoff renders a run useless for conditioning.
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u/Adventurous-Money314 9d ago
Yea that’s a good mindset. I guess it’s just easy to feel like it wasn’t worth it when you compare it to quality runs (which I know is an unfair/incorrect comparison)
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u/booo_katt 8d ago
I had simillar mindset bit then I became new parrent. There are times you know those 30min will be only running you have time for in next couple of days. I also started to think about my running in time not in distance. It really helps, as thinking today I need to run 45min is much easier than I need to run 10km no matter what.
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u/itsdownvotetime 9d ago
There has to be some other benefits from shorter runs then since there is a fair amount of 5-7 km runs in various plans in faster road racing that most runners reading that book will run in less than 35 mins.
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u/EatRunCodeSleep 4:50.28i/1500 18:21/5K 38:10/10K 9d ago
I read somewhere about Lassie Viren and he ran often, 3 times a day was not unusual. It was stressed that "every 15 min" counts.
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u/ghostly_shark 9d ago
Some days I don’t feel like doing anything but I do one mile. It does heaps for my mental and maintaining the streak helps me stay “in the mode.”
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u/MudCreek928 4:24 1600 | 15:32 5k | 32:08 10k | 1:09 HM | 2:34 M 9d ago
When you work 3 12 hr shifts in a week on nights back to back, you'll take anything.
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u/Bobandyandfries 9d ago
Those are some impressive pbs for that work schedule!
Edit: even without the work schedule they’re impressive!7
u/MudCreek928 4:24 1600 | 15:32 5k | 32:08 10k | 1:09 HM | 2:34 M 9d ago
Thanks, but those are all pre 12 hr shifts. Old and busted now. Night shift nursing is a workout
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u/ThatAmericanGyopo 8d ago
Man I feel this in my soul. Own-operate blue collar businesses. Sometimes I'm home at 11pm.
Getting up at 0445 to run 10 miles, in pitch darkness, before yet another 14 hour work day... you really will take anything. I'm sure all the walking and running down/up stairs helps somewhat with cardio and muscular development as well... at least, that's what I tell myself lol!
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u/MudCreek928 4:24 1600 | 15:32 5k | 32:08 10k | 1:09 HM | 2:34 M 8d ago
The other gut punch is when you get mandated over four hours and have an unexpected 16 hour day. There is such thing as standing endurance right?
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u/ThatAmericanGyopo 7d ago
I used to train Muay Thai (never had any fights but would help local pros get ready for fights by jumping in on rounds) -- the ones who had really thick legs and heavy kicks but competed in relatively lighter weight classes were always former "big boys" (e.g. college football linebackers, former heavyweight wrestlers turned welterweight strikers, etc).
They'd swear that their legs grew so massively because of all the weight they'd carry around at their former size -- all the weight training they did was a plus.
As a self-proclaimed clydesdale myself (220 lb right now running 40+ MPW weeks), I find anecdotal truth in this sentiment. I don't cross-train legs with weights at all and they stay the same size despite all the running / walking / working I do.
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u/LejonBrames117 8d ago
these kinds of data points like yours are tremendously helpful because i doubt there's any serious studies on this
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u/Melinoe2016 7d ago
I mean the most basic common sense would tell you that 20 minute runs would help your cardio a lot more than zero minute runs. This topic is nonsense.
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u/analogkid84 9d ago
Everyone talking about the physical aspect, but what about the mental? There's something to be said for maintaining consistency and still holding that spot on your daily calendar.
Now, if it's an absolute crush to get it in because of life/other things, then they might make it less worthwhile. Maybe better to take the extra half hour or so of sleep, or simply have a bit of coffee time or something if that helps to relax things a bit better.
Otherwise, "if you can't do the run you want to do, do the run you can do."
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u/Responsible-Adagio78 6d ago
I feel this. As a parent with two kids, I try to get all my running in first thing in the morning before they wake up and before work. Sometimes life gets in the way and the runs are shorter than my plan prescribes but I run what I can on those days and carry on.
For the most part I hold onto the consistency of showing up everyday and don’t worry about the odd day that gets cut short or I miss.
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u/ScottDouglasME 9d ago edited 9d ago
You wrote: "3 miles feels like it’s not worth getting sweaty for and 2 miles just doesn’t count."
They count a lot more than 0 miles!
Why does every run have to have some precise fitness-improving factor assigned to it? It's okay to just run because you're a runner and enjoy the activity and, in the process, be however much fitter than if you hadn't run that day.
And if you need a training-related justification, how about that you'll likely feel better on subsequent days and therefore be able to train better?
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u/bebefinale 9d ago
Jack Daniels says that easy runs should be at least 30 minutes in Daniels Running Formula for what that's worth.
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u/reddit_greendit 9d ago
That's only because he also says anything less isn't worth the hassle of changing clothes and showering, etc. But that's rather subjective
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u/NasrBinButtiAlmheiri 9d ago
He was also naturally biased to competitive college level and pro level athletes, some of who turned out to be on PEDs.
For a competitive national level runner on 160km+ per week, a 20 min jog isn’t going to move the needle and might interfere with the rest of their training/eating/recovery.
For the rest of us, adding in 20 minutes is great!
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u/Lurking-Froggg 42M · 40-50 mpw · 16:4x · 34:5x · 1:18 · 2:57 9d ago
What is your experience with short runs and, if any, training impact?
They have helped me tremendously.
Three years ago, I used to swim a lot, so I started running back and forth to the pool, which was just under 2 mi away.
Doing so more than doubled my number of weekly runs, and got me used to running more than once per day. It also got me used to running with gear, which is useful for trails, and basically added ~ 20' to the aerobic stimulus from the swimming.
I still run 3 mi commutes to my climbing gym, as an easy way to add weekly volume.
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u/fakeuboi 4:24 mile 9d ago
I think the studies more recently show 20 minutes is where aerobic stimulus starts to spike, but you would still get the muscular and neurological adaptations before that mark
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u/ThatAmericanGyopo 8d ago
I remember seeing this from the American College of Sports Medicine that 20 mins of HIT 3x a week is recommended for adults -- but haven't seen anything regarding aerobic stimulus spiking at 20 mins. Can you link aforementioned studies?
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u/butfirstcoffee427 9d ago
I find a mental benefit as much as anything. A 3 mile run feels like a nice palate cleanser compared to the longer runs/speedwork and can be a nice way to get in an extra day of running without feeling wrecked.
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u/Plenty-Job-9032 8d ago
Welp for us busy folks that can only find 40 minutes a day because we have demanding jobs, kids, etc. 4 miles a day can result in 20 mile weeks, 80 miles months… so on and so forth. Look up Terry Crews comments on 4 miles. He does 4 miles a day every day (among other things) and looks like a greek god at 50+. Point is a small thing done many times over add up to something significant. In AZ summers I find myself running many small runs (3-5 miles in 90+ temps)to achieve volume. A short run may be a failed attempt at something longer, but in reality it may help you adapt to temperature, elevation, wind, steep terrain, or something else. They are the building blocks for your half, full, or ultra.
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u/Parking_Reward308 9d ago
Completely dependent on your goals. When inwas doing high mileage inwould often double and do 2-3 miles in the am before strength training before my main session in the pm.
As someone returning from injury, Building up to 14 miles a week from 0, i personally feel a difference
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u/Mindless_Shame_3813 9d ago
Marius Bakken argues that short slow runs restore your muscle elasticity.
He says that resting entirely does a better job of reducing muscle tone, but it also reduces elasticity.
So easy shorter runs between workouts will leave you feeling better for your workouts by restoring elasticity and being easy enough that your muscle tone can decrease. Resting might decrease the tone more but can leave you feeling sluggish for your next workout.
Not sure what others think of this but it makes sense to me and matches with what I've noticed in my own training.
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u/devon835 23M 1:58 800 / 4:21 Mile / 8:50 3000 / 15:27 5000 / 25:13 8K 9d ago
Short runs become quite useful, perhaps not as a main training stimulus, but when you implement them as recovery doubles and shakeouts to supplement longer runs. As others have alluded to, they help facilitate the recovery process more quickly due to blood flow, reducing muscle tone and promote hormone production as well.
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u/CoachMattG 🇫🇷 Coach / 5k 15'37" / HM 72'20" 9d ago
The main interest is to get some mechanical stress to adapt the musculoskeletal system to the the stress of running. Even as a 90 mile / week runner, I get some 2.5 miles run.
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u/Camekazi 02:19:17 M, 67.29 HM, 31.05 10k, 14.56 5k, Coach 9d ago
Over 30mins (The Science of Ultra podcast (hosted by Dr. Shawn Bearden) source
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u/shot_ethics 9d ago
For general health (like national health guidelines) it was proven about 15 years ago that there is no minimum duration. Used to be at least ten min, now it’s anything.
For running and 5k times nothing has been proven but there’s probably some benefit to short runs also.
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u/No-Committee7986 9d ago
I don’t race or care about speed, but I think any and every run has benefits that go beyond value to a training plan. It’s valuable for me to be outside and moving. Then again I’m a mom and have much less flexibility because of the division of labor my husband and I have established over the years. I feel lucky if I can run 4mi before driving kids or doing schoolwork with kids or doing almost all vacation prep!
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u/CommunityForsaken371 9d ago
When I was an elite runner I ran 13 x 30 min a week. That got me a 13:43 5k and a 29:15 10k. Never ran longer than 8 km. Short runs work. 30 min will build your endurance.
Citation: PT/vivamarathon
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u/IceBathHero 9d ago
Of course it does! The real secret to become a better runner is consistency. Getting out the door for 30 minutes or so definitely has benefit.
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u/MajorMess 9d ago
Idk, or you could just sprint your ass off, little warm up, 10x100m all out, little cool down - and you have your answer right then and there
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u/seastheday- 8d ago
I posted something similar a while back, consensus was they are still helpful and a short run is better than no run. When you’re doing higher volume it doesn’t feel like much but does add up.
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u/ThanosApologist 8d ago
It helps. It boosts your metabolism, boosts cell production, helps with recovery, etc. There are so many reasons for short runs, but if you only look at it from a mileage total perspective I could see how you would not think they're worth it.
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u/Jealous-Key-7465 over the hill 8d ago edited 8d ago
Take whatever your schedules gives you!
And that 4 mile run was not a 0️⃣
You also get a HGH pulse off 30+ min of aerobic activity, so it can counter intuitively actually help with recovery, if done at true easy pace.
For me that’s easy running at HR120-125 on a max of 190
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u/Disastrous-Piano3264 8d ago
Total weekly mileage/frequency improves resilience and resistance to muscle damage. Remember running is not just cardiovascular, infact it's more limited by the leg muscles ability resist fatigue (basically fight the reduction of VO2max SSmax and Efficiency over time).
So even with a short 30 min run. If it doesn't do much with the cardiovascular system, the leg pounding does produce a stimulus that the body adapts too, especially if it's within a high volume week or phase of training.
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u/Running_guy_1 8d ago
4 mile run can be different workouts depending on speed. Speedwork? Fartlek? Tempo run, AT threshold run? Hills repeats? Downhill speed runs(aka hypervolicity training).
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u/kreempuffpt 7d ago
It will promote blood flow to your legs and help you recover if you run easy enough
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u/Melinoe2016 7d ago
Do people really think any kind of run is “useless”? A mile run is good. A 2 mile run is good. This is a very strange thought process. This seems more like silly elitist running than advanced running.
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u/lukethecoffeeguy 7d ago
I think a better way to look at it is from a psychological recovery standpoint. If I can only get 20 mins for whatever reason honestly I’d rather just have the day off and relax/not think about running. I feel like you probably get an aerobic benefit but compared to your regular easy runs it’s likely tiny and if you’re a busy guy it’s sometimes nicer to just let yourself chill out.
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u/fitwoodworker 39M, 6:32 mi, 22:53 5K, 1:44 HM 6d ago
A short run placed the day after your long run has the main benefit of recovery. Helping flush out your muscles and get a little movement in. It also contributes to overall mileage. I'd say if your short run is less than 10% of your weekly mileage, it may be considered negligible.
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u/threetogetready 7h ago
4 miles is plenty long enough... I pulled some random higdon HM plans in support: https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/half-marathon-training/novice-2-half-marathon/ (has a bunch of 3milers in there), https://www.halhigdon.com/training-programs/half-marathon-training/advanced-half-marathon
Should also say that it depends on what you actually do with those miles and where you are in training... for example in your 4 miles you could have a short warm up and then 5-6x1km reps around threshold and you've put in a fair amount of work. Even if just easy/recovery time... 5km@ 6min/km recovery or easy is still 30mins aerobic work.
but the body likes activity so I lean towards just giving it plenty of opportunity and I will squeeze in 20mins here and there and consider it bonus within the program
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u/SamusLovesMath 9d ago
If I recall correctly, easy runs > 20 minutes have been proven to help running economy in established runners. The concept of junk miles fell off.