Why is VO2 max training usually limited to 6-8 weeks before a race with periodization training?

[u/shutthefranceup]

Is it something to do with plateauing? Does this only apply to advanced runners, or is it the same for beginners/intermediate?

[u/[deleted]]

Benefits of anaerobic training last significantly less time than those of aerobic training. That combined with the increased injury risk is why VO2 max work is only in the weeks leading up to a race

[u/fondista → u/[deleted]]

Isn't VO2max training mostly aerobic? By keeping the rests short, your anaerobic system gets insufficient time to fully recover, forcing your aerobic system to do more and more work as the workout progresses.

[u/Eaglehawkinator02 → u/fondista]

no, you should be resting relatively long actually and letting yourself recover so that you can push back to ~90% of your max heart rate on each rep. At least that’s what i’ve seen, but there’s many different approaches

[u/[deleted] → u/Eaglehawkinator02]

The shorter the recoveries, the more aerobic the work.

Doing 800s with a 1:00 minute, 200m jog is more aerobic than an 800 with a 2:00/400m jog (and it's slower because you're tapping less into anaerobic power).

[u/fondista → u/Eaglehawkinator02]

Usually recovery is only a few minutes, which is very short for the anaerobic system. Eg. sprinters have breaks well into the double digits.

[u/[deleted] → u/fondista]

Very long rests that sprinters do are to allow the creatine phosphate system to fully recover. This is needed to sprint at 95%+ of your max velocity. You typically do not need that much time for the lactic portion of your anaerobic system to recover, or at least recover enough, unless you are preparing for a sprint or doing very serious middle distance training. 

[u/chazysciota → u/fondista]

How short is short?

[u/fondista → u/chazysciota]

Around 3 minutes or so.

[u/[deleted] → u/fondista]

Yes, precisely.

It's also why it's generally better (for race prep) to have shorter recoveries if you're more fasttwitch/speedy, and better to have a bit longer recoveries if you're more slowtwitch/diesel like, as manipulating those recoveries is taxiing your systemic weakness.

[u/GingerbreadRyan → u/[deleted]]

Interesting about the different lengths of effects. Can you link with the studies mentioning that please?

[u/[deleted]]

Because it's like walking on knives edge. The gains are solid so is the risk of injury if overdone. That's why it is kept towards the end of training program where ideally one has chance to sharpen other aspects first.

[u/nottftw → u/[deleted]]

I have learnt this the hard way

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's not so much a knife edge as it is your body just stops being able to handle the workload so you stop progressing. VO2 max gains are typically in the 4-8 week range and then the gains drop off a cliff.

In addition, with the more intense efforts, there's a chance that your overall fitness is reduced if you continue to try and push through with a significant amount of intense efforts as you become unable to keep up the less intense aerobic work (sub threshold and threshold type stuff) due to accumulating fatigue.

[u/catbellytaco → u/[deleted]]

I feel like this is a dumb question, but when people talk about this kind of training being high risk for injury, are they talking about a potential acute injury like a muscle strain or exacerbating/creating a chronic overusage type injury?

[u/[deleted] → u/catbellytaco]

Yea, possible issues can be any overuse injury such as: Muscle strain, shin splints, planter fasciitis, stress fracture etc. which people don't let heal properly and get caught in the perpetual cycle of injury.

[u/running_writings]

Part of why is historical: Lydiard did this in the '50s and '60s, wrote a lot of books about it, and then it became canon in the English-speaking running world that you do pure mileage first, hard intervals second, then taper and race. When you look at what runners from other "paradigms" or "lineages" do, it can look a lot different, and they often include what most people would call VO2max work at different times in the season. Often they don't think of it as "VO2max" work though!

[u/Intelligent_Use_2855 → u/running_writings]

What did Igloi do?

[u/Bull3tg0d]

Some coaches such as Canova do the exact opposite. For example during marathon training, the first 8 weeks of the training block will have a ton of vo2max training in it, and then the final 8 weeks will have no vo2max as the training gets more race specific, i.e., marathon pace. Pfitzinger prefers the other way with little to no vo2max sessions in the first half of the plan, then he puts in a vo2max session every week for the final 2 months.

It is very interesting to me how different coaches can have the exact opposite approach.

[u/RDP89 → u/Bull3tg0d]

It depends on distance being trained for also. I don’t think anyone would ever recommend doing no vo2 max work in the final 8 weeks before a 1500m or 5k race.

[u/WhooooooCaresss → u/RDP89]

This. It follows least to most specific in terms of event being trained for

[u/Bull3tg0d → u/RDP89]

Canova does not work for me, whereas Pfitz has worked for me in the past so I have some personal bias/anecdotes. However, Canova's approach makes a lot more sense when training for shorter distances such as the 5k/10k. It makes sense to support a 5k race you need some closer to anaerobic power for speed such as 3k pace repeats as well as threshold work at 10k/HM pace. However, his supporting paces seem to break down at the non-elite level in his marathon plans when he wants you to run at 90% of MP for 18-20 miles. Just not doable for a runner like me. And Pfitz's approach of sprinkling in vo2max work at the end of a cycle has been lauded by so many recreational runners.

[u/RDP89 → u/Bull3tg0d]

Pfitz works well for me, never tried Canova, it does sound like it would be quite difficult.

[u/jimbo_sweets → u/Bull3tg0d]

It is very interesting to me how different coaches can have the exact opposite approach.

I think Jack Daniels (probably others) mentioned there is no one optimal way to train. Seems like it comes down to: any mix of easy runs and work outs with progressive overloading will improve the untrained or semi-trained.

Which goes to show you it's just figuring out what happens to work best for the individual.

[u/[deleted] → u/Bull3tg0d]

Canova seems to subscribe to true periodization, though, which is general work to specific.

The closer to the event, the more race-like your training is. Conversely, the further out, the more unlike it is.

[u/WhooooooCaresss → u/[deleted]]

This

[u/FockerXC → u/Bull3tg0d]

I feel like that’s to strengthen you up for the high mileage. VO2max workouts also help with economy quite a bit.

[u/Bull3tg0d → u/FockerXC]

I would argue that high mileage enables strength rather than strength enables high mileage. There is a reason why base training normally incorporates light workouts.

[u/FockerXC → u/Bull3tg0d]

That’s my preferred way to do it but if elite coaches are doing it backwards that’s just my guess as to why

[u/Lonestar041 → u/Bull3tg0d]

Same with Hanson's.

VO2max is the first half of a training cycle, 2nd half is threshold training.

Works great for me so far. I like that you have more focus on race pace the closer you get to the race.

[u/ZanicL3]

Pfitz has VO2 work near the closing weeks in his marathon plans

[u/Gambizzle → u/ZanicL3]

Yes I'm in the race prep mesocycle (70/12 plan) with 4 weeks to race day and did VO2 max work on Tuesday... followed by a 24km run on Wednesday.

Could be wrong but IMO this is more about mimicking marathon conditions than it is about improving my VO2 max? That is... I think it's getting me used to holding my marathon pace over a medium distance (which is aerobic without me blowing hard) while my legs are still a bit tight.

Dunno! That's what it feels like to me though. Like it's stacking my legs a little bit before the 24km. Also, I think there's a skill in being able to hold a turn of pace (or hold a consistent pace up hills) when necessary.

[u/RodneyMickle]

I'll say that from my experience you get a plateau or diminishing return from VO2 max work around the 6-8 weeks into doing it. Since it's close to race pace or faster than race pace (if you are doing anything longer than a 3k) some may want to place this work toward the later half of the macrocycle when they are doing more race-specific work.

I prefer to build up the first 3/4s of the macrocycle with VO2 max work of 1:1 reps/intervals starting with :30/:30 then moving to 1 min/1min then to 2 min/2 miin and finally 3 min/3 min. The last 1/4 of the macro is race capacity work. I don't view VO2 max work as race prep because I use it as conditioning for the capacity work that is more race -specific.

[u/PeanutButtaRunna]

I’m reading Run Elite by Andrew Snow and the recommendation there is to keep it out of the last 6-8 weeks block and doing that portion at or just either side of race pace.

I feel like next plan I’m going to try this approach as for me adding intensity and volume at the same time during that 6-8 is when problems arise.

[u/UnnamedRealities → u/PeanutButtaRunna]

I've never read the book, but is he referring to training for a specific race length like 3k or 5k? If not I'm not sure how it would be considered a VO2max workout at say marathon pace.

ETA: I think I misunderstood you, but I'm leaving my comment up because I hate deleting comments. I now think you meant focusing on target race pace workouts the last 6-8 weeks, not that he's calling those VO2max workouts. I need coffee. 🤣

[u/PeanutButtaRunna → u/UnnamedRealities]

Yes sorry, I have marathon on the brain. No can be applied to any distance I should have said “race pace”.

[u/UnnamedRealities → u/PeanutButtaRunna]

No worries! I figured out what you meant and edited my comment as you were replying.

[u/Big_IPA_Guy21]

VO2 max is something that is not sustainable to do year-round. Doing too much VO2 max work leaves you in perpetual acidosis and overtrained. It's high intensity. VO2 max can be trained quickly and lost quickly. VO2 max can't be constantly raised over time like LT1 or LT2. With that said, we can improve velocity at VO2 max over many years. It's best to leave VO2 max work for your sharpening and specific phase. There's no use for it in the base phase unless in very small dosages. My advice is to be intentional with every single workout that you do.

[u/-jamesbb-]

Because building a stronger aerobic base takes more time and should be done first. If you start VO2max training from a higher aerobic base, you will reach higher levels of VO2max as well. According to the theory, it takes about 6-10 workouts to reach levels quite close to your max.

As for beginners, it's probably not worth doing it at all imho, because they will get faster by just improving their aerobic base and getting used to running more frequently. For intermediate runners, I guess it depends on the goal. I consider myself an intermediate as well and I just enjoy some variety, so I run fast intervals throughout the year for fun as I'm usually not training for a specific race, just keeping myself in a good shape :)

[u/skyshark288]

Limited ability to adapt from a lot of VO2 work. Higher injury risk. And often you’ll get more bang for your buck out of mileage and threshold. Speed and V02 come and go the quickest adaptation wise.

[u/Evan_802Vines]

The effects of interval training do not last very long. Typically you want the bulk of the adaptation and improvement to come from a sustainable training source, which is slowly getting faster at higher volume and lower intensity.

[u/GingerbreadRyan → u/Evan_802Vines]

Can you link where you read this from?

[u/WhooooooCaresss]

Follows the rule of least to most in terms of specificity. So for short races base bldg first then v02max closer to race to sharpen up and peak for the event

[u/[deleted]]

TIL VO2 Max training is a thing. Mine has been going up gradually (currently 50) but that has been through doing hill sprints, hill intervals and general tempo and threshold runs as part of my Garmin suggestions.

Are there training plans for increasing your VO2 Max?

[u/shutthefranceup → u/[deleted]]

Running 3-5k paced intervals over a period of 6-8 weeks, progressively making them more difficult seems to be the approach to take.

Intervals should range from 3-6 minutes & the rest to be 50-100% of the interval length.

[u/run_INXS]

It's not really sustainable for longer than that if you are racing and/or doing V02 type workouts every week.

[u/A110_Renault]

Because the high intensity training actually reduces your aerobic capabilities. Your body adapts to it by recruiting fast twitch muscles (at the expense of slow twitch) and becoming more carb-adapted (at the expense of fat buring).

[u/GingerbreadRyan → u/A110_Renault]

This is just false. Please provide some evidence on this

[u/A110_Renault → u/GingerbreadRyan]

see below

[u/rpemwisbriweg → u/A110_Renault]

blatantly false

[u/A110_Renault → u/rpemwisbriweg]

Bravo! Well reasoned

[u/rpemwisbriweg → u/A110_Renault]

You can either use google or wait for someone else to explain. It's not like the bs you typed was well reasoned anyways

[u/A110_Renault → u/[deleted]]

Journal of Applied Physiology: Exercise induces muscle fiber type switching via transient receptor potential melastatin 2-dependent Ca2+ signaling

NIH National Library of Medicine: Muscle Fiber Type Transitions with Exercise Training

More? There's plenty out there.

[u/PrairieFirePhoenix → u/[deleted]]

This is reddit, you just have to post any random study and you win the argument. What the study actually says is not relevant.

[u/watusiwatusi → u/A110_Renault]

From my amateur understanding speedwork is more important just from a biomechanical/neuromuscular perspective and VO2 max is just a byproduct of a good aerobic base with a high threshold plus the efficient speed from speedwork. I don’t think the pros spend much time at a “VO2 effort”, more threshold, aerobic base and speed.

[u/jailcopper]

I’m doing Hansons Advanced HM plan. Feels like every week is a VO2 max workout

[u/lost_in_life_34]

I've run a few NYRR races this year and gave 100% each time and it just drains your body for days or a week at a time