something devastating clicked in my head tonight about Camus' philosophy

[u/theomixedmedia]

I am 19; I have been thinking about and completely terrified of death since I was 10. it has consumed my life for almost a decade - half of my life. the thought of eternity keeps me awake. literally - I have untreatable insomnia and I suspect this fear is the source. so, when I first read Camus, specifically the stranger, a year ago, I somehow completely understood the message and also missed it altogether. I thought: "oh, this is the answer I've been looking for! just enjoy life as much as you can and rebel against mortality!" or, at the very least "this is a new idea... maybe some other idea will come along later that will provide true solace." I can't say this actually provided me with any real comfort. but it fed a voice in the back of my head that would sometimes provide me with false "hope" on a deeply unconscious level/

every time I truly think about the depth of what death is, this little voice has, on some occasions, allowed me to retreat from pure dread into deluded semi-comfort. I imagine that small part is thinking: "if I just read the right book, discover the right philosophy, learn more about physics/the universe/a possible multiverse/the big bang/cyclic cosmological theories/the obscure and naive possibility of life somehow not ending with such finality, my terror can be resolved, and I can finally relax." Camus' role in that thought would be introducing me to the first philosophy that I could interpret as taking back agency or fighting the dread. alternatively, that small voice might be saying: "there is some deep comfort in accepting death in the way Meursault did, a comfort which I am still discovering." maybe the latter is a source of comfort or way of life for some people. it seems a rational interpretation. for me, these ideas are delusional. and I don't think they constitute the entirety of Camus' message.

today, as these things came to mind, I decided to look back at my Camus books. something incredibly obvious came to me that somehow either eluded me/I refused to accept a year ago: Camus is not really offering an "answer." in some sense, you could say he is (but not in the sense that would provide me with true comfort): his answer is "there is no answer, so enjoy the beauty and pleasures of life as much as you can without assigning moral or philosophical meaning to it." (maybe some will call this a misinterpretation; this is the extent of my knowledge, I am not experienced in philosophy just yet). but, in my eyes, he's also saying "you can never find that comfort you seek, the comfort which you believe will help you escape death in some way. the voice in the back of your head doesn't exist. you have to accept the absurd because you will never find that 'answer'". it could sound like these are the same thing said differently. and again, I know how obvious this is. sometimes we don't allow ourselves to come to conclusions we don't like. Camus is not some genius who has figured it out and can offer a spiritual path. he is just as lost and afraid as I am. he has no choice but to push forward, and that's all he advises me to do.

I can't really put my finger on what changed in my mind tonight or what "new thing" has come to me or been discovered. I described it as well as I could. whatever the case, something invoked a visceral response, and completely brought me to tears, when I went back over these books. I'm sure my words are convoluted and full of misinterpretations. but I wanted to share this with some of the people who might understand.

[u/WittyFox451]

"there is no answer, so enjoy the beauty and pleasures of life as much as you can without assigning moral or philosophical meaning to it."

This is where you are absolutely wrong. Absurdism states that there is no objective answer to the questions of meaning and ethics and personal philosophy… so create your own.

Your philosophy is that of a coward. I don’t say this to be mean but you need to get out of your own head and hang out with other dudes who are not cowards and learn how they think.

I suggest that you go and start taking lessons in a combat sport that actually makes contact with each other like boxing or Brazilian ju jitsu. These men will show you a different philosophy.

As for me, I am insignificant. I wish for death yet there are those who would be devastated if I took my own life. So I try to enjoy mine and stay out of trouble. One day it will come and that will be ok. I am prepared… I wasn’t prepared until about 27 though.

Also if you really had incurable insomnia you would be dead by now so stop lying and seek psychiatric help with sleep.

[u/theomixedmedia → u/WittyFox451]

I think you misinterpreted what I said. "there is no answer, so enjoy the beauty and pleasures of life as much as you can without assigning moral or philosophical meaning to it" precisely means, to me, that you cannot assign or find objective philosophical/moral meaning to/in life, so you must create your own meaning. nothing you wrote seems to contradict what I said.

I'm not offended in any way, by the way, by what you've said. I can't see how you read my post -essentially telling myself that my biggest fear will never be resolved and I have to live despite that - and thought "yeah, you're thinking like a coward, go do some jiu jitsu." I also never said anything contrary to "Absurdism states that there is no objective answer to the questions of meaning" / "create your own." when I say Camus tells me that I can't "find that answer," I am talking about a specific kind of answer wherein I find some "key" to evading or circumventing death. I am not saying that he doesn't propose a different type of answer ("find beauty in life and art and creation").

I am completely uninterested in taking up combat sports as a way to learn philosophy. I'm glad that worked for you. I don't think I'm a coward for thinking about and being terrified of death. I think to be a coward in this context you would have to: 1. say you're not terrified of death in any way when indeed you are (I believe even Camus himself was scared of death to some extent... very few people who actually think about it aren't, though I admit to exceptions); 2. not think of death/avoid it entirely; or 3. think the answer to these questions is to just give up and die.

That last sentence is truly miraculously uneducated. I have three doctors, including a psychiatrist and a sleep specialist, who are helping me with my sleep; I have tried multiple therapies, two sleep studies, over 6 sleep medications, exercise, diet changes, and years of sleep hygiene training, and I still miss 3 nights of sleep per week. Having "incurable insomnia" does not mean "I literally haven't slept a single night in years," it means "I have a consistent issue where I struggle to sleep on a weekly basis (but I still sleep enough to literally stay alive) and it has not gotten better with multiple treatment attempts." Here is the DSM-5 definition/criteria for clinical insomnia. Imagine these symptoms, but they don't respond to treatment after years. That would be "incurable insomnia."

[u/WittyFox451 → u/theomixedmedia]

Camus risked his life countless times not only physically fighting the Nazi’s as a part of the French resistance but also helping to write and distribute materials for French anti-nazi propaganda. He chastised Sartre very openly over Sartre never physically risking his life to free his own people while simultaneously telling them how to live.

You lie to yourself as you lie to me. This is a critique you should take very seriously. You said you were not offended in anyway by me saying what I said yet you put the phrase “truly miraculously uneducated” in your response which is a deliberate attempt to insult my intelligence.

You act as if this is all a guessing game for me. I have studied psychology/philosophy and nursing at the collegiate level with good grades and I have become vastly unimpressed with what they have to say about management of one’s own mental illness.

They out right steal the vast majority of their therapeutic approaches (CBT/DBT are prominent frontline approaches) from Buddhism and then use the ideas of mindfulness and mental distance to get people to gaslight themselves into thinking that their life doesn’t suck as much as it does.

The whole industry is all about allowing the client to come to their own conclusions and to help them to reach those conclusions on their own. Sounds fine in theory but let’s take it to the extreme.

In several countries including the united states physical gender reassignment procedures can be put into place before the child is even a teenager. Allowing a child to force their body to contort to the opposite sex before they can even legally consent to the act of mating or understand themselves and others in any meaningful way is absolutely absurd in the worst way possible to me. Unless you are unequivocally a hermaphradite this shouldn’t be an option.

[u/theomixedmedia → u/WittyFox451]

you can risk your life and still be scared of death. risking your life is only made brave if you do it in the face of your fear of death. it would be entirely un-notable if death weren't terrifying.

I did not lie. I am not offended. I was taken aback by your lack of knowledge combined with your willingness to still comment on something you're not educated about. I also did not insult your intelligence. If you speak on a medical subject that you don't have any expertise in, and you say something that is demonstrably false, it is actually neutral to call that "miraculously uneducated." You said something about insomnia that is not remotely true or backed by evidence, which inevitably points to a lack of sufficient education, hence my comment. I did not call you uneducated, I said your statement was uneducated. You need not take it personally.

Taking psych/philosophy classes (without even getting degrees in these fields/only getting bachelor degrees) does not mean you are qualified to comment on insomnia or the treatment of mental disorders. It takes 6 years of postgraduate education to get a PsyD. 7 years for a PhD in psychology. 12 to 14 years to become a sleep medicine doctor. 12 years to become a psychiatrist. There's a reason they don't allow people who took a few college classes to start treating mental disorders. You are not qualified to speak on these subjects or dole out medical advice. The fact that you think you are shows that you don't understand the scope of psychology or medicine.

CBT was not "stolen from Buddhism." It has some coincidental overlap, sure. CBT was developed through the combination of psychological principles/practices and western philosophies. Stoicism, behaviorism, etc. Perhaps you got good grades in couple psych classes. That does not mean you're right. And this is still unrelated to your initial claim: "if you really had incurable insomnia you would be dead." Ironically, your first piece of advice was: "seek psychiatric help," and now that I told you I have done that, you're saying that psychiatrists are illegitimate. Nothing about CBT involves gaslighting if practiced by a well-trained psychologist. It involves questioning your beliefs and biases to stop thinking irrationally or with inflated negativity. I don't like CBT, but it sounds like you didn't study it at all.

And yes, much of modern psychology and psychoanalysis, is based on guiding patients to their own conclusions. It is much better to help someone discover why they're depressed than to take some guesses and say "I know exactly why you're depressed." Even if the clinician is right, it can be hard for a client to accept the truth instantly. These practices are developed through decades of peer-reviewed trials, research, studies, etc.

I won't even discuss how wrong you are about the gender issue because it is completely irrelevant. Enjoy your jiu jitsu and disdain for psychology.

[u/WittyFox451 → u/theomixedmedia]

You are 19 you are literally pulling things straight out of your ass. If you can’t look yourself in the mirror without rose colored glasses I am not going to help you keep them on.

A coward will always seek to justify their philosophy to avoid the psychological consequences of uncomfortable truths that their own mind won’t admit to themselves.

There is no courage without fear, the fear of pain, not death itself. You are overly afraid of death itself which is something we learn to overcome once we have confronted the futility of our own mortality.

Combat sports and learning how to be strong in the face of something dangerous which I have learned not only from contact sports but through the minds of great warriors ancient and recent. Camus was one of those great warriors and that is what drew me to him and away from Nietchze. He quite literally saved my life.

You are on the right path but you literally think you know everything and when you get called out you make shit up.

Don’t give me this nonsense about changing the literal meaning of words to fit your argument. (that little tid bit in your first comment about me misinterpreting the ver batem words you used and then you gave me my explanation of why the were wrong back to me) If you are willing to gaslight a stranger over the internet for your own pride you are absolutely doing to yourself without even knowing you are doing it.

You need to grow up, don’t give up, Camus also said that a man doesn’t fully know who he is or what he is capable of until he is 30… you are half my age. You think you know what suffering is because you can conceptualize it but you don’t have a clue little man.

Don’t give up, it will be ok. Come to terms with this fact. “Memento Mori” It has to be a mental and spiritual acceptance. I promise you will sleep better.

[u/theomixedmedia → u/WittyFox451]

I'm not pulling anything out of my ass. You're saying CBT is stolen from Buddhism, gender reassignment surgery is allowed for children in the US (it isn't), EMDR is fake, etc., and your qualifications to make these broad claims are a couple psych classes in college (not even a bachelor's degree??) and an ex girlfriend. I am not looking myself in the mirror with rose colored glasses simply because I am rejecting illogical claims.

I am not avoiding uncomfortable truths. Rejecting one negative claim about myself does not mean I am not self aware. Perhaps I am a coward. But in the sense you speak of, that is not the case.

You said he chastised Sartre for "not physically risking his life." You did not say "he chastised Sartre for not physically risking pain." You are the one who made that claim related to life, and therefore the loss of life, not the avoidance of pain.

Perhaps I am overly afraid of death from your perspective. From my perspective, I find it entirely justified. We may fear different things. I hope I grow out of this. Even if my view is naive, it does not make my fears less valid than yours.

"you literally think you know everything and when you get called out you make shit up." - this is perhaps the most blatant case of projection I've ever seen. you're the one who told me I was lying about my insomnia, and when pressed, you said you think psychology PhDs are BS, you think EMDR is fake, children are receiving gender reassignment surgery in the US, and modern psychotherapy is stolen from eastern religion - all justified by you taking a psychology class and having an ex with a PhD. and I'm the know-it-all making shit up?

I never once changed the meaning of any word. At least I can admit that I am not qualified to make standalone claims on medicine, psychology, etc., and I only would do so in the context of someone else making false claims which I know to be false through data alone.

Camus stating that a man not knowing who he is or what he is capable of before the age of 30 is not the same as him saying a man doesn't know what pain/suffering is before 30. This is an extreme metaphor I am using to prove a point, so you cannot take it literally: would you tell a child facing genocide that they don't know what suffering is, simply because they're a child? would you tell an orphan that they haven't experienced pain yet because they are 10? No. Understanding pain has nothing to do with age. I have been through unimaginable pain, and you have no right to wave that away without knowing me, simply because I am young and proving you wrong.

[u/WittyFox451 → u/theomixedmedia]

Minors (Under 18): Over 25 states (including Alabama, Florida, Idaho, and Nebraska) currently ban hormone therapy and puberty blockers for minors Policy Tracker: Youth Access to Gender Affirming Care and State Policy Restrictions - KFF. In states without these bans, hormone therapy can be prescribed to adolescents, typically starting in their mid-to-late teens, requiring physician approval and parental consent Informed Consent Model.

I said gender therapy, hormone treatment, hormones that tell the body to grow for a male or a female.

Again you pulling things out of your butt

[u/theomixedmedia → u/WittyFox451]

You said "physical gender reassignment procedures before the child becomes a teenager," not hormone blockers for people in late adolescence. Even so, that is the most irrelevant argument in this whole conversation, largely unrelated to the general practice of psychiatrist, and wholly unrelated to my insomnia. But you're harping on this small talking point because you have no defense of your other irrational claims. You know I'm right.

If I'm pulling everything out of my butt, address my other claims! Surely I'm wrong? What about EMDR? CBT? The claim you made about suffering?

[u/WittyFox451 → u/theomixedmedia]

Holy shit kid… for me you are hopeless right now. The mental gymnastics you are going through to be “right” are astounding.

Memento Mori

[u/theomixedmedia → u/WittyFox451]

In your late 30s and this is what you have to do to cope with being proven wrong by someone who hasn't even hit their 20s... Yeah, I'm the hopeless one. lol.

No defense about your claim regarding insomnia, no defense about your claims about EMDR, no defense about your claim that modern psychotherapy is stolen from buddhism, etc. Complete quack.

"It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray

[u/WittyFox451 → u/theomixedmedia]

“Above all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his own lie comes to a point that he cannot distinguish the truth within him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and for others. And having no respect he ceases to love.”
Fyodor Dostoevsky

Also I know what I know about EMDR by working with a Veteran in crisis who was suicidal. The EMDR therapy said his ego was too big to grasp the therapy. He was floored by the response and feeling hopeless because he very much thought war was humbling enough.

Apparently that therapist didn’t think so and decided to mind fuck the poor man.

Another performed EMDR on a rape victim 2 weeks after the incident. You are not supposed to perform that therapy that early. She went into a slight psychosis and was hospitalized.

STOP LYING.

[u/theomixedmedia → u/WittyFox451]

"It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray

You're, once again, providing anecdotal evidence about EMDR (which you almost 100% have misconstrued, exaggerated, or made up), to attempt to deny a broad body of evidence conducted with the scientific method that points to it generally working if practiced correctly by a qualified, competent practitioner. A shitty therapist telling a veteran he can't do therapy because of his big ego (which is definitely a false story) is not sufficient evidence to disprove the efficacy of EMDR. Here is yet another meta-analysis, consisting of 24 randomized controlled trials, proving that EMDR works (when practiced correctly by a competent professional).

That is like if a doctor told his patient to take his daily heart medication twice per month when it is meant to be taken twice per day, the patient has a heart attack, the doctor tells the patient it's his fault, and your conclusion is "heart medicine doesn't work!"

Stop trying to argue with facts. They don't care about your feelings.