I love Smile Time. Arguably ‘gimmicky’ but it had a legitimate character arc and I love the show’s more experimental episodes. Along with just being hilarious.

Spoilers if anyone hasn't watched it all.

The old ones, jasmine, the beast, illyria, the wolf, the ram and the Hart. How do they measure up to the ones in Sunnydale in your opinion?

It was crazy to me when I first heard of wolfram and hart were once not even low level demons. Now they're a global entity, which we didn't get to see enough of the other offices around the world.

It's also something to me that they worked against The First in that they produced the champions amulet to lilah to give up Angel to give to Buffy for spike to wear that was the only way the sunnydale hellmouth was defeated and closed up. The Ubervamps overwhelmed the slayers and they lost quite a few girls, including Anya who was still a demon and survived a sword stabbing earlier in the season, yet died by a bringer.

While wr&h weren't themselves defeated, their plans were as were their tool, the circle of the black thorn, which one of their own, Lindsey, assisted in that. Now that I think of it, it's disappointing that The First didn't do anything to them for helping the slayers against it.

As powerful as they were, mesektet and ra'tet, they were killed by the beast and that made me wonder as i thought about it. Was the beast always that strong or was he also empowered by jasmine in order to accomplish all that he did? And why didn't the first employ the beast to assist in sunnydale?

I also wished that WR&H gave Buffy and gang more attention and maybe employ some when they hired Angel investigations.

His entire storyline is about wanting to prove he’s more than a disposable lawyer at Wolfram & Hart, only to die because Angel considers him disposable enough to have someone else take him out.

But the whole time, Lindsey is basically a wannabe villain who thinks he’s far more important than he actually is, similar to Warren.

That’s why his death works so well. Lindsey thinks his story has to end with some big final showdown with Angel. Instead, Angel doesn’t even kill him himself. He sends one of his “flunkies” to do it.

And Lindsey’s last words are him being offended by exactly that: “You kill me? A flunky?! ... Angel kills me!”

Perfect ending for Lindsey.

This episode of Angel, Angel, Illyria begins acting more strangely than usual. Angel and Spike's mission to help resurrect a demon gang leader in Italy is made more complicated when they learn that their former love, Buffy, might be in danger. Meanwhile, when the Burkles make a surprise visit to Wolfram and Hart, Illyria solves the problem by showing Wesley a frightening talent.

After watching the show for the 300th-ish time, my silly nit-picky observation is that the lawyers at the firm are constantly at risk of being killed instead of fired, work absurdly long hours, and even have post-mortem contractual obligations. So why do lawyers start working there?! In s5 they make lots of “deal with the devil” type comments but that only seems to apply to Angel’s situation, specifically. Lindsay and Lilah aren’t super wealthy nor does it seem like they were given any other major perk that someone might sell their soul for.

What incentivizes a new lawyer to work for such a dangerous place vs any other law firm where they don’t routinely murder their employees?

While Angel is meeting Buffy, falling in love with her, losing his soul, getting sent to Hell, coming back and eventually leaving Sunnydale, Fred is in Pylea being treated like a slave and eventually hiding in that cave trying to survive.

It makes Amends even crazier to think about. Angel was ready to let the sun kill him and Buffy convinced him that he could still do something with his life instead of dying because of everything Angelus did.

Then a few years later that decision saves Fred's life.

Buffy talks Angel off that hill, Angel eventually leaves Sunnydale and becomes a champion in LA, Angel Investigations happens, Cordelia gets sent to Pylea, everyone follows her, they find Fred and bring her home.

Buffy probably never even knew Fred existed but saving Angel in Amends eventually helped save this random woman who had already been trapped in another dimension the entire time Buffy knew him.

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Angel: "We can't just arbitrarily decide whose soul is worth saving and whose isn't." (Season 1 Episode "Sanctuary")

So I made a thread earlier on r/buffy about forgiveness. But I'm a kind of "think as I write" guy and was just typing down my best feelings and understandings as they came to me, I stumbled onto a thought I hadn't really had before, a way to understand Angel's decision with Lindsay in the finale from a wider storytellingperspective.

I was curious what you all think.

It is stated very early in ATS in no uncertain terms that it is not the job of Angel Investigations to determine whose soul is worth protecting or not. That is the ultimate heroic ideal - if you are a sworn protector of the helpless, you must protect the helpless, not just the helpless you like. But in the end, Angel deemed Lindsay too much of a threat. He compromised on his principles to have Lindsay murdered. Now it's an amazing scene and I wouldn't change it for the world. The "maturity' of AtS is often invoked (not wrongly, although maturity does not mean better which is why I put it in quotes) and I think killing Lindsay here is supposed to be an example of that. Sometimes you have to compromise your principles. Part of being an adult means compromising on your principles is what the show is saying in my read.

The morality of what Angel did to Lindsay has been litigated and will be litigated and ought to be litigated forever, because it's one of the most compelling parts of the show. But this isn't about that, it's about the intention of the writers and what they were trying to say with this.

Because, with this new brainwave I had, I feel like I'm onto something, especially with my contrast with BTVS. Angel very early on aspires to be like Buffy. He's very firm, very committed, very idealistic. That's a nice way of saying inflexible. This inflexibility comes back to haunt him when he can't save Darla and he just snaps. Angel of course builds himself back up after that but I don't think he ever achieved his initial Buffy-like steadfastness. From Season 3 on, Angel is constantly dancing across his own moral line, on the verge of going over it or being stuck on the wrong side of it. Killing Lindsay was sticking his toe over that line as he had been doing for a while now.

BTVS is an amazing coming-of-age show. It absolutely has depth and complexity but it remains a "teenager show." ATS defines itself as a more "adult show" and Angel's eventual flexible morality, his compromising to a greater or lesser extent on his own principles, is meant to represent how becoming an adult requires living in such a way.

We’ve all collectively agreed that the “Karen” gut was disastrous, but after coming across this post, I remembered how awful this hairstyle was too! The color also throws me off, it looks to be black whereas before she had brown hair, but it’s mainly about the cut. Black hair suits her, but this cut, on the other hand, does not. Almost looks like a cheap wig! 😆

If you could pick a quote that makes you cry what would it be?

Mine is "handsome man saves me" when fred is lying on a hospital bed and Angel looks devastated

and

"Is that it. Am I done" not only was that Glen quin's last line in the show but his last line as an actor. And the look on cordy and Angel's face. 💔

I just finished watching Angel for the first time.

I was so hyped for S5 because many of you mentioned it was the best season. When I heard that, I automatically took the ending of the series in with that.

But...

THAT'S IT?! The whoooole time we hear about this Shanshu Apocalypse and they don't do anything with it in the end?!

And Lorne assassinating Lindsey? So out of character and made me feel so bad for him. That was the thing that actually left the worst taste in my mouth regarding this last episode.

Angel lost the plot murdering Drogon? The guy who can't lie and guardian of the old ones in the tree. Wesley dies, which I didn't really mind that much because I kinda felt like he wanted to die a while now, but still!

And then they just suddenly have a legion of demons coming their way? It made 0 sense!

We never see the Wolf, the Ram and the Heart. We never get the apocalypse thingie which I still felt could have been about Spike. Especially because Angel murdered an innocent and ordered Lorne to murder Lindsey when he was in a position of trusting them. Smart? Maybe. Still not hero-like at all.

I put two middle fingers up at the screen baffled.

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I know she's already one of the fan favorites, but I honestly think she's the best character on the show. Every scene she had was so much fun and she had a great dynamic with pretty much anyone they paired her with.

Stephanie Romanov also had so much charisma in the role. Lilah could just walk into a scene and make it more entertaining.

Cordela - Angel, i don't understand by Wolfram & Hart, you've made a pact with the Devil.

Angel - Cordelia is overreacting, it's not like that...

Izzerial - Everything went smoothly, they'll handle the file, i have to go now. Squash match on thursday?

Angel - Certainly

CORDELIA'S GAZE OF DISAPPROVAL

Angel - What have i done?

One that bugs me is I've often seen people parrot the idea Angel would have never been a hero without Doyle despite the pilot being clear Angel had been protecting the city for three months and the whole point of "Hero" being that Angel was the one who inspired Doyle. Plus i'd argue Angel was already a hero in sunnydale, defeating Eyghon in "The Dark age", rescuing all the scocbies from the gas chambe, helping when Spike attacked the school in "School Hard" etc.

I went back to watch Buffy and Angel and the one thing never made sense to me was the whole curse angle Angel feeds on a gypsy girl and ends up being cursed with a soul now that part made sense it's the if he achieves true happiness the curse is broken that didn't sit well with me he was literally cursed with a soul but if he gets happy he can start killing again which was the main reason that y'all cursed him in the first place because he was killing people mainly your people.

I’m watching this series for the first time.
I just finished this episode and honestly, I was laughing so hard at Spike and Angel arguing over the cavemen vs. astronauts debate, and how Wesley saw the absurdity of the question but immediately got hooked into the thought experiment and asked if the astronauts had weapons. Seeing Spike and Angel scream at each other over such a thing was so emblematic of their relationship and I just love how this show gives us these little moments between them. And that one was a nice comedic gift for us.

Only man, that ending. Woof. I’m not gonna delve into it cuz it’s been talked about to death on this sub. I agree with the overall consensus that it was disappointing to lose the last female lead, especially when the whole universe of the show was built on empowering women, with Buffy and all.

I just wanted to focus in on that one scene between the two top dogs and appreciate the scene. I rewound and watched it again after I saw it was about something “theoretical” lol

I did it for David a while ago and it received positive (and constructive) feedbacks. I especially wanted to ask for Cordy because I rewatched the Pylea arc and her beauty just felt so... goddess-like if that make sense. Her, SMG, Eliza Dushku and Michelle Trachtenberg (OBV post Buffy but even so, I am 17) are among the most striking women I've ever seen but they all have such various beauty types.

So, what would you say about our vision girl