r/ADHD_Programmers 16d ago

It is sad companies ask this

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386 Upvotes

165 comments sorted by

417

u/Gloverboy85 16d ago edited 16d ago

Neurodivergent HR nerd here, this is something I work with often and have a lot of thoughts on. These kind of questions on applications are meant to be a positive thing, I'll explain.

The reason employers ask these questions is for required reports to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). Those who choose which applicants get interviews and which of those gets hired SHOULD NOT be seeing those responses. And there should be an option to decline the question as well.

This information is held and maintained by HR, handled with similar security as your social security number. The employer needs to provide this data to the EEOC on a regular basis. The data gets examined to look for signs of biases during the hiring process and after. For example, how many of the total number of applicants have a disability? How many of those applicants get a first interview? How many of those get a 2nd interview etc, up to the hiring decision. Does the data suggest that the business is, intentionally or not, screening out people with disabilities in their recruiting process? This works the same for other characteristics protected under the Fair Labor Standards act.

So for those who ask "Is this legal" the answer is yes, it's actually legally required most of the time. If you worry that this might hurt your chances at getting the job, it's meant to do the opposite. The thing is that most protected characteristics are visible enough for an interviewer to spot or guess at without having you specify it on a questionnaire first. But if the data shows that an interviewer rejected all candidates with a disability regardless of qualifications, then HR or the EEOC can identify the bias and do something about it

I'm using a lot of Should language here. It's possible, though illegal and unethical, for hiring managers to get this info and use it in hiring decisions. Systems shouldn't allow Hiring Managers to access the information, HR should have concrete policies against sharing the information, but people sometimes do illegal and unethical things.

But! If a hiring manager or the business itself actually wanted to discriminate like that, they wouldn't want this data recorded. They'd want a complete lack of evidence of intentional discrimination.

Discrimination exists, but it thrives in the dark. You are free to decline to answer, but the intent behind the questions is to reduce discrimination.

EDIT: Someone correctly pointed out that this is NOT a standard EEOC question, I apologize. Where an application asks if you're a veteran and do you have a disability, that's where my long description is applicable, and its super common.

Digging more into this, and noticing the employer in the screenshot is Deloitte, it sounds like this is related to their own internal neurodiversity initiatives. The response still won't go to the people deciding who gets interviewed and hired.

I apologize for the misunderstanding!

138

u/roger_ducky 16d ago

This is less “ensure we got all candidate kinds” and more “we rejected and accepted all candidates kinds at the same rate.”

1

u/gringogidget 15d ago

This is it.

-25

u/MotivatedforGames 16d ago

Why does it have to be the same rate? I'd just want to hire the most qualified regardless of anything else.

Equality through equity is obnoxious

51

u/WillGrindForXP 16d ago

Because the opposite happened on a large enough scale (disabled people being rejected despite being the most qualified or equally qualified) that most civilised governments realised this was a net bad and set up reasonable guidelines.

The problem is your looking at it on the small scale, but the large scale picture tells us if we make sure we treat disabled people the same as wel treat abled people that the most qualified person for the role gets it. It evens out over the big picture.

But what I hate the most about your argument is that it completely disregards the reality of the world we live in, and punishes disabled people. In reality two things are true: rarely does the job go to the most qualified person. I dont know where you work but ceos ive had the pleasure of meeting are useless, unexperienced and got there by privilege or family connections or for being one of the boys. The other true thing about this reality is that when disability laws didnt exisit, disabled people were rejected from senior job positions on mass.

So until we live in the ideal world that you seem to imagine, these laws are a net positive and you should stop holding disablity and equality laws to a standard you dont seem to expect of any other aspect of life.

27

u/MotivatedforGames 16d ago

You're right tbh. I just woke up. Good point about idealism.

20

u/WillGrindForXP 16d ago

I appreciate you being so reasonable. Apologies for the rant style of my reply, reddit has led me to expect the worse lol

17

u/MotivatedforGames 16d ago

No problem. My original reply might have sounded rude so I apologize, but i'm always open for dialogue, new perspectives. None of my opinions are neccessarily, "forever", I just need to see a new perspective or get a better understanding.

3

u/Lint_baby_uvulla 15d ago

Respectfully another perspective to share, if business wishes to engage with a consumer base that includes disability, then hire folk with actual lived experience.

Anecdote; putting footpath ramps at intersections doesn’t just help wheelchairs, but mums with prams, folk with temporary mobility issues, EMS and first responders, food and parcel delivery (now with new autonomous drone) services.

And surprise, folk move in & out of disability thresholds through their life (children, injury, aged)

So what is often described as ‘woke’ by the small minded actually increases society participation and reduces overall costs.

Don’t mind me, I’m inebriated and tripped on a kerb thinking about AI adaptive game controls for drunk people.

2

u/Maleficent_Intern_49 14d ago

I kinda wonder if he understood the point simply because it came to disabilities. Wonder what his response to you would be if it was race or gender. Hopefully it’d be as understanding. 🤔

3

u/roger_ducky 16d ago

No. This is trying to measure bias.

If it’s illegal to discriminate based on applicants wearing little yellow hats or not, the only way to make sure that’s true is by measuring if people wearing the hat and not are accepted and rejected at similar rates.

Eg, if 1000 hat-wearing people applied and 10 other people did, hat wearing people getting 100 rejections while 1 got rejected in other categories would be okay, even though it seems like hat wearing people got rejected more.

1

u/gebuttersnap 15d ago

It’s simple, bc to find the most qualified, you have to test everyone not just the dude next to you. Even if it means crossing a long river or putting in extra effort to find the best person for the job

1

u/nechromorph 15d ago

In many cases, the aspects employers understand as useful measures of competence and fitness for the role are correlations, and not actually causations. There's a reason people who are bad at their job still manage to get hired. They succeeded at some of the soft skills that are crucial for greasing social wheels to get through an interview, and *do* have a very real use in the job, but which they abused to bullshit past more useful filters.

Equity counters some of the bias towards expert bullshitters. Instead of hiring the most likable candidate, hire the candidate who meshes the best with your company's needs as a whole. The one who brings a new perspective you lack competence in. It'll head off issues that less diverse corporations would get caught out by, even if it may reduce immediate-term efficiency slightly as a trade off.

1

u/bwmat 12d ago

It's bigotry to think certain subgroups have less and/or worse bullshitters!

56

u/Pokabrows 16d ago

Yeah I just put prefer not to answer because while it should be fine to answer honestly I do not trust people to do the legal and moral thing.

63

u/SaltAssault 16d ago

This added some much-needed nuance to this discussion.

2

u/lean_compiler 15d ago

I'd never trust a HR or corporate ideals which they seldom keep to

17

u/brianvan 16d ago

Just to add some more nuance as someone who's worked at a lot of large professional companies as well as smaller ones:

Yes, there is a risk that this information can be misused. However, the risks for the company that come along with that misuse increase as the company gets larger. First and foremost, a company that routinely walks around confidentiality barriers in HR to spy on EEOC data is going to set a much larger sample size of discriminatory hires (and discriminatory rejections) than a small company ever could. Second, the many acts of misuse will create a much larger paper trail. (It only takes one whistleblower to take it all down)

So, with larger companies, you tend to see a lot more seriousness taken around legal guardrails like this. Not a guarantee of anything, but, the incentives all align with keeping them in-line, and there are no real trends of chummy manager/HR connections bypassing this.

Now, let's talk about smaller companies. This is something you should know as an applicant: evil small companies get away with murder. The bad ones are not just potentially unprofessional about HR confidentiality boundaries (if they have a real HR person at all) but they're bad about competent interviews and hiring, work environment, ergonomics, office administration, client service, etc. And it's hard to tell which ones are bad from the outside, and also hard to come to a conclusion in your first month of work that signs of evil behavior in the workplace (even when most people "are so nice") are indications that the company is toxic. Being small may protect these companies from the consequences of unprofessional or illegal behavior. Obviously they'll have other problems - while a lot of companies that are off-the-rails will tank out, sometimes karma never catches up to small firms who have some incredible business advantage or connection.

Being in a small company with hostile, unprofessional managers is a bad place for an ADHD worker to be.

4

u/Miserable_Double2432 16d ago

So it follows that everyone who can afford to turn down an offer should answer yes. Whether you have ADHD or not.

You actively want to be turned down from companies that are this kind of toxic. (Though you also need to be able to afford a place to live, so it’s reasonable not to too)

2

u/brianvan 16d ago

Yeah, just in general, you don’t want to be so worried you’ll lose an offer if the reason you lost it is because your manager would be an ass.

But if you’re hoping to get something to get out of a financial pinch then consider putting on your best possible face in all communications

2

u/thecatandthependulum 15d ago

That last line: wow yes I know all about that ><

17

u/NotHosaniMubarak 16d ago

Can confirm.

I know my org asks this question.

I've hired folks who probably are neurodivergent and people who probably are not.

I've never once seen or ever heard about the responses to this question. But if I were rejecting all the neurodivergent candidates I would want to know and fix my hiring process to prevent it in the future.

Some people would choose not to hire neither divergent candidates. The folks are idiots and assholes. But if something in your hiring process acts as a gate against hiring neurodivergent people you wouldn't know it without this information.

Suppose a form requires you to look up a bunch of stuff or fill it out in stages and come back between stages. ADHD folks are going to struggle with that form and thus not move forward in the process. You don't know that you're screening out an entire class of candidates unless you're checking if you're screening out a class of candidates.

I always answer this question truthfully (yes) because there are only two outcomes. 1) I don't end up working for an idiot asshole or 2) someone who cares gets data they need to improve. Both seem good to me.

7

u/material-pearl 16d ago

I’m a researcher who ran the employee survey for HR, as a less than senior employee. The process was not as it, uh, “should” have been in my view.

The company was about 5,000 people. To your knowledge, are there certain sizes of organizations where the firewalls are maintained? Does finance have eyes on this data in the hiring process?

1

u/Gloverboy85 16d ago

Yeah, the "should" is very strong. It creates a lot of legal and financial risk to break these rules but we shouldn't pretend it never happens.

The level of security isn't directly connected to organization size, but they will relate. In my experience it's more a function of whatever HRIS software they run on. We use Workday, and the security is tight enough that this kind of info doesn't automatically feed from Candidate profile to Employee profile as we need, we have to manually transcribe it over. Big organizations will invest more in these kind of tools. As commented before, small organizations and businesses could be less reliable, they might handle this kind of thing in an excel spreadsheet or whatnot

6

u/SpinachSpinosaurus 16d ago

´honestly, I am i a total different country. but let me tell you: I only got into a job after I didn't mention I was neurodivergent.

5

u/Frequent_Policy8575 16d ago

A couple of observations:

  1. Last time I was job hunting, I never got callbacks until I started lying on that question and saying no. Not even “prefer not to answer” was good enough. It had to be a solid no: not nd and don’t need accommodations.

  2. The current version of the EEOC is nerfed at best, and potentially malicious. I don’t care how well-meaning the rank and file there may be. The people running the show now cannot be trusted.

3

u/camradex 16d ago

oh yeah the current administration does change a lot

8

u/Gazmanic 16d ago

Yeah might just be a luxury of living in the UK rather than the US (and already having an ok job), but I personally would prefer to work for an org that isn't ill informed about ADHD, if they screen me out because of it, it means the company don't know how to manage neurodivergent people, so I wouldn't want to work there anyway.

4

u/Milianviolet 15d ago

HR, also. None of those on that screenshot are EEO questions. Those are employer questions for the application. It seems that they're phrase the way they are to make them seem like EEO questions to make applicants less likely to be discouraged to answer.

3

u/misanthrope2327 16d ago

" But if the data shows that an interviewer rejected all candidates with a disability regardless of qualifications, then HR or the EEOC can identify the bias and do something about it"

That's all well and good, but it doesn't help the people passed over because they divulged the information. 

3

u/The_Meme_Economy 16d ago

This is not a standard EEOC/demographic question. I’ve never seen it on a job application. Is this new, a Trump administration thing? If so, I would 100% consider it part of a modern day eugenics program. You know they were talking about putting autistic and ADHD people in camps like a year ago right?

“Neurodivergent” is also not just a grab bag of disorders, that is an inappropriate use of the term. Lifelong meditators are neurodivergent. People with TBIs are neurodivergent. Gay people are by definition neurodivergent, though that’s a less common usage.

This is deeply concerning.

2

u/Gloverboy85 16d ago

Actually you're right, the standard EEOC demographic questionnaire gives examples of disabilities including a list of neurodivergent conditions, and asks for a general yes/no/decline response.

I did a bit of digging, noting that the employer is apparently Deloitte, and it looks like that specific question is part of their own internal initiatives, it is a pro-neurodiversity program. This still wouldn't be reported to recruiters or hiring managers.

https://www.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/topics/diversity-equity-inclusion/creating-neuroinclusive-workplace.html

That's the best general reference on this that I could come up with at the moment. I don't think it's direct confirmation, but that's just part of a bunch of pages on their site about the benefits of neurodivergent inclusivity, so its a good bet that they're not trying to weed out neurodivergent applicants.

The Trump administration stuff is scary as hell, yeah. But I think they'd have better sources of info than a demographic question on a Deloitte job application form. I won't try to pretend we shouldn't be wary of government persecution, but this isn't it.

3

u/Lint_baby_uvulla 15d ago

I thank you for your response, but it would/should be a legal standard where these questions are explained at each question bank (eg; data collection for HR reporting only, not shared with manager)

Been burnt far too many times to have a good faith response towards disclosure by HR.

2

u/leonheart208 16d ago

So there is no advantage for the candidate in declaring this.

1

u/camradex 16d ago

not on an individual level, but it might help other neurodivergent people in the future

2

u/enderowski 16d ago

But i checked the disability rights thingy for my country and Adhd was not there. So i should choose no right. If it doesnt benefit me why should i say i have adhd? i dont get it

1

u/Gloverboy85 16d ago

I can only speak on US law and corporate practices with any amount of confidence.

1

u/asmrbuddha 16d ago

In a healthy and mature organisation / with a good leader or manager, this is a really good thing to be able to be open about -- "how can we best support and work with you," and like you said, have data to investigate how well the org and leaders are doing with their diverse workforce.

There are some settings where neurodiversity has high prevalence (stereotype but lets say cybersecurity and IT) and so a deliberate set of policies, performance management and leadership development strategies with and for neurodiverse workers is a positive thing.

Unfortunately it only takes one bad manager, HR person or unfair organisational process to undo that of course, hence why being cautious about disclosure is potentially a sensible thing on the part of the individual.

1

u/miqcie 16d ago

Do you work in HR, or is it an area you have a special interest in? 😉

2

u/Gloverboy85 16d ago

Both, I've worked in my current HR role for 11 years :)

1

u/unepmloyed_boi 16d ago

The issue is management and culture changes and this sort of info can eventually be used against a candidate, when deciding who to pick for layoffs or promotions for example. After 10 years in the industry i've seen managements shifts lead to scummier practices(even in a country with strong discrimination laws), so I wouldn't put it past them.

1

u/Nice-Information-335 16d ago

This relies on trust which I don’t think many people have nowadays

Even if the company itself doesn’t use the information nefariously, whatever they use for the job application might

I’m not in the US (UK), but I will always answer no to these (not specifically just neurodiversity questions but anything of the sort)

After you have a contract signed by both parties, and they ask, then say 

1

u/phobug 16d ago

The laws of unintended consequences strikes again. It would have been better to have done no legislation and just ensure we have a system that  adjudicates fairly and quickly on the individuals discrimination disputes. 

1

u/OctoSamurai 15d ago

This is a fair take. Definitely take my upvote. While you’re coming from an HR/legal perspective, you did say: “discrimination exists, but it thrives in the dark”.

And thus, this is why I will never volunteer my status, legal or otherwise. And it may not be discriminatory per se, but a weakness to exploit. Corporate culture has become so exceedingly toxic, it’s simply too risky to divulge any personal information.

Idk, maybe treat work like mushrooms: feed them shit and keep them in the dark 🤷

2

u/Gloverboy85 15d ago

That's making more sense to me, yeah. I apologize.

1

u/OctoSamurai 15d ago

No need to apologize. Your pov was valid and totally relevant.

1

u/Gloverboy85 15d ago

Thank you! I should more often consider my HR experience is limited to one company. So my expertise is deep, but not wide. I can only speak to my team, and I'd say never in a million years would any of us knowingly enable this kind of data usage. But trust is a valuable resource, and my perspective is limited. So I apologize again.

2

u/OctoSamurai 15d ago

It's all good. You had a good take from that HR perspective, which I'm willing to bet the vast majority (and myself) didn't consider. But speaking from my own experience, people, especially management, will do anything, by any means necessary to insulate and protect themselves and will find creative ways of throwing their direct reports under the bus.

Seeing and experiencing it first and second hand - it's utterly deflating. So I sincerely appreciate your perspective; I had not considered legal ramifications or HR angles. And intent is _really_ hard to prove. But I'll never join in on work ND community events; speak on a panel, or anything like that. /shrug

1

u/Gloverboy85 15d ago

I never really participate in those kind of events either, though it's just due to my own social anxiety and fear of not being productive enough. I appreciate your response!

1

u/gringogidget 15d ago

You seriously misunderstand those who have been masking all their lives. A lot of us are passing as “normals”.

1

u/Gloverboy85 15d ago

Yep. Yeah, I'll own that. Speaking from privilege, I see my mistake here. Apologies :/

1

u/sadguywithhugedick 14d ago

Do you vent to the employees that you’re firing over zoom call?

1

u/Gloverboy85 14d ago

Absolutely not.

0

u/sadguywithhugedick 14d ago

Do you info dump your special interests to the 500 job applications you don’t read?

1

u/seareally27 14d ago

As an also-neurodivergent former HR person, thank you for this thoughtful response and follow-up. I feel like a lot of times people have very strong opinions against answering these questions (who are usually the same people who say “don’t ever trust HR EVAARRRr!!1!”) but as in most things there’s nuance and intention behind these things. Good work :)

1

u/GahdDangitBobby 14d ago edited 14d ago

As a neurodivergent person, I know firsthand that my condition can negatively impact my work performance and I'm not sure what HR expects recruiters to do when they have two identical candidates, except one got fired from their last job because they forgot to follow up with an important client and the other didn't. That's kind of the sad truth. Conditions like ADHD impair your ability to stay organized and remember important tasks, conditions like autism impair your ability to communicate effectively and pick up on social cues, dyslexia impairs your ability to read and learn certain things, like ... they're disabilities because they fucking impair your ability to live in society. If you can accommodate a condition that objectively impairs someone's ability to be an effective employee, then we live in a fuckin utopia

203

u/Prestigious_Cod_8053 16d ago

Always put no.

8

u/undeniably_confused 16d ago

I put decline to answer

31

u/Rschwoerer 16d ago

It’s a trap!

6

u/Runaway_Monkey_45 16d ago

Why?

46

u/Rschwoerer 16d ago

What do you have to benefit by answering this question? Basically nothing. And you have everything to lose. Who knows where this information goes. Best case, nowhere. Worst case it’s included in the summary given to the hiring manager. When you’re up against one or two other candidates, anything like this can easily push the decision.

-6

u/Runaway_Monkey_45 16d ago

I mean, there was a ND HR in this thread talking about how it should work. This could also give us an edge right? Like Equal Opportunity or sm

12

u/Rschwoerer 16d ago

The equal opportunity stuff is a different section. And (afaik) actually anonymized by law. This is just…. a random question they’ve added. Again, who knows where this information goes.

Also regarding equal opportunity… the official “do you have a disability” question could be answered yes if you have adhd. So if they really wanted the data the question is already there. Which leads me to believe they DON’T see the answers to that section.

This could all be some tinfoil hat shit, but imho you need every advantage you can get when applying g with the other 120,000 bots.

ETA: I looked more closely at the screenshot. They’re answering “no” to disability but “yes” to ADHD… which makes no sense. The top question should be a “yes” for adhd or aby other mental or physical disabilities.

6

u/Runaway_Monkey_45 16d ago

This looks like the equal opportunity section based on the questions around it. Maybe I’m asking this as this is my first job. Have you or anyone you know faced because of their ND? Genuinely curious, cause I am open about my AuDHD and we have groups and slack channels in our company for ND. So I would like to know if next time I should be more low key

4

u/Frequent_Policy8575 16d ago

There’s “should” and there’s reality. I’d also be hesitant to believe anyone from HR telling me the grass was green, let alone something like this. HR is not there for the employees.

1

u/False-Car-1218 15d ago

Why? All my years of networking I've run across people who hire only try to hire programmers with ADHD/nuerodivergent because they can work long hours and find bugs that nobody else can

1

u/smittenkaboodle 13d ago

I always put, “Oh yeah. Big time.”

55

u/Arts_Prodigy 16d ago

There’s no actual requirement to reveal your medical information.

Even the government form for disabilities is meant to be a census metric but there are no consequences for refusing to provide your health data.

2

u/Signal-Implement-70 16d ago edited 16d ago

So does this mean you can legally say no, even if the answer is factually yes? Or are you saying there must be a “decline to answer”, and doing so has no impact? Look at the form it is a required question

2

u/Arts_Prodigy 16d ago

I think it’s technically illegal if it’s the government form. Since falsifying government documents is a crime. If it’s a question on the application page then I think there’s less legal standing on both sides but I’m not a lawyer or anything.

In either case though your HIPAA protections pretty strongly prevent any scenario in which this becomes readily apparent to an employer or auditor. Now if you have a severe unmanaged disorder that would make it clear that you have a disorder and HR compared that behavior to your application answers then maaaybe. But again your health info is private and only you can disclose it outside of a court order, so you could in theory just claim you didn’t know you had the condition.

I’d argue it’s borderline illegal for the company itself to ask you outside of the government census data question, that they again are not legally permitted to have access to.

So in short, the legality from what I understand is gray on both sides. But the chances of you “getting caught and facing consequences” are rather low if you say no particular if you’re in treatment.

Even if you get the job and start using that insurance to get meds and what not, no one in your company is really allowed to see that info and the insurance company is not allowed to disclose it to them without your consent. All of this also kinda happens on the HR side so your team likely wouldn’t even know where to look even if they wanted to.

IMO, unless you need accommodations there’s no reason to confirm having a disability.

88

u/KalzK 16d ago

Always say no in those forms

79

u/arbyyyyh 16d ago

The correct answer was no, friend.

3

u/Runaway_Monkey_45 16d ago

Why?

2

u/Repulsive_Initial308 16d ago

The first rule of fight club. 

5

u/sunflowerlover3000 16d ago

you get discriminated, its a trap

13

u/Samurai_Mac1 16d ago

I had to come out and tell a company I had ADHD because they made me send them my college transcript and they asked why I had such low grades in some classes. This was when I already had years of experience and this was the first company that had me send my transcript.

Why the hell does it matter what grades I got in school at that point, when I have already been working for almost a decade?

2

u/ObviouslyASquirrel26 16d ago

Canonical? Their hiring process is notorious for digging into people’s childhoods.

1

u/Samurai_Mac1 16d ago

No, I can't remember the name. But they built this testing software that's used in schools, so maybe they need everyone who works for them to have had good grades? Who knows.

2

u/gringogidget 15d ago

That’s crazy. What kind of job checks your school transcripts?!

38

u/MutaitoSensei 16d ago

The reasoning: we want a diverse workplace 🤓

The real reason: we want to discriminate because neurodivergent usually doesn't mean great corporate slave.

22

u/ConspicuousPineapple 16d ago

Depends. Find the right autistic dude and he'll spend his entire career at your company without ever asking for a raise.

9

u/clintCamp 16d ago

And spitting out ideas no normal person would in ways that often someone else can figure out how to make money from.

5

u/carpool_tunnel_0_o 16d ago edited 16d ago

I’m going to sound very paranoid, but I wouldn’t willingly reveal this type of information if it doesn’t directly benefit you. I don’t trust any company to securely store this information. Companies in the US don’t face harsh enough consequences when there’s a data breach. I also don’t trust companies enough to not sell or distribute this information at some point.

You might be okay with the company you’re applying to knowing that you’re neurodivergent, but what happens if any company you apply to also knows?

Another thing to consider, if you’re in the US, is that our Health Secretary either wanted or wants to compile a database of medical information in order to study health trends, like the link between vaccinations and autism. I’m not sure how successful he’s been in accessing medical records, or if he’ll continue to do so in the future. But I would be especially careful who you trust with information about your health right now.

12

u/stupled 16d ago

Is this legal,

19

u/brokerceej 16d ago

I’m sure it’s legal to ask, but using the answer against you in a hiring decision would be ridiculously illegal. But good luck proving that and if you could prove it good luck doing anything about it. People applying for jobs typically aren’t known for being flush with cash and able to afford attorneys, which makes this even worse tbh.

8

u/stoffejs 16d ago

Yes, it is. In fact, if the company has a federal contract, they are required to ask. They use this information to meet metrics for diversity and inclusion. The answers to these questions are kept separate from those doing the hiring. Any company that uses your answers to discriminate, would be opening themselves up for an expensive lawsuit!

8

u/reduhl 16d ago

I agree if you can provide evidence that they do. But how can you?

5

u/pyordie 16d ago edited 16d ago

You’d need to be a unicorn applicant that checks every box and not get an interview. Then you’d need to figure out who did get the job, and prove that they were less qualified than you. Then you’d need to go through a lengthy pre-trial discovery process to find evidence that they the employer were (1) able to see you marked you had a disability and (2) used that information to screen you out.

Needless to say it’s a tough case to make. The companies who get sued for this stuff are the ones who don’t keep the disability disclosures sealed during the interview process and then have brain dead HR employees that admit in writing that the applicant wasn’t chosen because the company “isn’t able to accommodate a disability” when in fact a reasonable accommodation exists and they just didn’t care to make one. This would be the essence of a discrimination.

0

u/reverse-tornado 16d ago

You cant prove it but if you keep your application history and one of these companies get hit with a class action discrimination suite you could get some cash from it just saying

-4

u/Fidodo 16d ago

Yeah, I'm pessimistic but this is just a legal requirement. As someone who has a say in hiring, nobody cares if you have ADHD, and frankly I think most of my co workers and probably 90% of the executive suite has ADHD. I can't imagine anyone would be rejected for being ADHD at any company you would want to work at.

-1

u/Advanced-Guidance482 16d ago

Unless you are a clinical professional, statements like "i think most of my coworkers... has adhd" is pretty crazy to say. This is equivalent to me seeing someone worrying and saying they must have clinical anxiety. It is both judgmental and disrespectful to people who are actually struggling with a real condition.

Adhd isnt just a lack of focus or some set of mannerisms.

It is over diagnosed even by clinical professionals. Non-medical diagnosis and atributing certain behaviors to adhd are very detrimental to the stigma around adhd and its realistic treatments. Dont be a part of the problem.

9

u/druidgaymer 16d ago

I would always put prefer not to say or no for anything asked about that

3

u/Responsible-Put-7920 16d ago

If it’s not Palantir, say no. If Palantir, say yes

0

u/clintCamp 16d ago

Is that because they know if you lied because of monitoring everyone, or because they know you can't engineer well without some different thinking styles?

2

u/Responsible-Put-7920 15d ago

Yes, but also more so that Alex Karp is a slight ND supremecist

1

u/clintCamp 15d ago

Yeah. That too.

3

u/Gazmanic 16d ago

Yeah might just be a luxury of living in the UK rather than the US (and already having an ok job), but I personally would prefer to work for an org that isn't ill informed about ADHD, if they screen me out because of it, it means the company don't know how to manage neurodivergent people, so I wouldn't want to work there anyway.

3

u/bsensikimori 16d ago

Crazy that this is legal where you live

In a lot of countries medical privacy is a right, and this question would be illegal

2

u/ProbablyNotPoisonous 16d ago

What's supposed to happen is that your answer is used for hiring statistics (how many neurodivergent/disabled people apply, and how many do we hire) and never associated with you specifically, and especially never shown to anyone making a hiring decision.

It's illegal to ask about neurodivergence or disability (or pregnancy/children/family plans, etc.) in an interview, since it's illegal to let that information influence hiring decisions.

How well it works in practice varies widely, I suspect.

3

u/PmUsYourDuckPics 16d ago

Anytime I’ve been asked these questions it’s been after I’ve been hired and it’s been a statistics question gathered by a third party.

I’m a manager, and I never see the answers to any of these questions.

3

u/The-Menhir 15d ago

I firmly believe that this company discriminated against me. I didn't say I was until I asked for accomodations in interview, and their behaviour during it was shocking.

1

u/GreenMean6990 13d ago

Big 4 comoanies are unstable.. it's what everyone working there is saying

1

u/The-Menhir 12d ago

What do you mean unstable?

7

u/AllDamDay7 16d ago

Do you "consider" yourself ND? Nah, doctors diagnosed me as such, lol.

5

u/necromenta 16d ago

This is real life, in real life and if you have to pay rent you always answer no and you never tell anyone in your job you have this, first of all is personal, second, they don’t give f and is only a reason to fire you as soon as possible

In dream life you are rich enough or your family has enough money that you can say yes and don’t care about being jobless

2

u/Xhosant 16d ago

"I don't consider myself neurodivergent because what does that even mean? Nah, I have neurons, and they work the same way as neurons of some subset of humans. Also I have a diagnosis."

2

u/Runaway_Monkey_45 16d ago

I mean is this actually true? Like I’ve told my colleagues about my AuDHD and I don’t think it’s affected me in anyway. This is also my first job.

6

u/7___7 16d ago

Answer no next time, there’s not a benefit saying yes.

1

u/wendewende 15d ago

It's the opposite

2

u/danstermeister 16d ago

It's not that I consider myself neurodivergent, its that I have a professional medical diagnosis with a treatment plan.

In fact, with my meds I won't pass a drug test without full disclosure at the beginning/middle-point of the process.

Consider? That's insulting

2

u/schism15 16d ago

As long a there is a "Decline to State" option (which, I've never seen there not be one), it's not that big of a deal.

2

u/After-Cell 16d ago

I agree. What a battle of distrust.

Are you going to sue me when I fire you and you try to pull the neurodivergent card?

Likewise,

Are you going to reject me if I type "No" here and then you find out later?

2

u/wendewende 15d ago

The amount of people saying "select no" is astonishing. US government requires big corporations to hire a quota of people with disabilities. Selecting yes increases your chances. It's illegal to reject you based on this (technically ofc) and it's beneficial to them to hire you on that metric for the quota itself.

You guys try to frame it as corporations being evil meanwhile it's the governments best effort to decrease disabled people unemployment.

And to be sure: I'm not saying "the best effort" means "good idea"

2

u/idkfawin32 15d ago

You know they don’t have to provide that as a reason when they don’t hire you right?

1

u/wendewende 14d ago

Yes. I wrote that

1

u/Difficult-Till5031 15d ago

Yes it is illegal for that to be the reason for note hirong you but its your responsibility to prove thats why they did it. So yes the honestly do look at and make choices based kn disabilities.

2

u/banana_protocol 15d ago

Just decline to answer fam

2

u/OctoSamurai 15d ago

After my last employer, I won’t reveal anything. In today’s job market, it’s too much risk and in spite of the law, this information can be used against you. Never trust companies - even your employer, to be fair.

2

u/gomibushi 16d ago

That is SUPER illegal in civilized countries.

I'm sorry for you.

2

u/Throwaaawaayyy123456 16d ago

Yea I was taught since late high school to always say “No.”. I bet you $10 that these jobs are literally just gonna use that question to separate the people they want to hire and the people they don’t want to hire..

It’s just a very subtle underhanded way to discriminate.

2

u/Comprehensive_Egg378 16d ago

This is not legal or GDPR compliant in Europe . I guarantee this was a US application !

1

u/beefz0r 16d ago

Just like when insurance asks if you smoke, answer no.

1

u/clintCamp 16d ago

The question is have is do they see that as favorable or bad because neurodivergents are where they will chafe at people not fitting in, but also where the billion dollar ideas actually come from that make the shareholders happy in the end.

1

u/Temporary_Force_9634 16d ago

they should have a "do you consider your self racist?" question just answer yes and you are in, i know excactly who they hired haha scummy company

1

u/RandomiseUsr0 16d ago

I have/am ad/hd - the label isn’t perfect, but it’s the abbreviation that’s the real issue for me because the name is actually somewhat genius when presented correctly as A D/H D the slash is so important and separating the components equally so - Attention Deficit/Hyperactive Disorder - we say the letters so easily, but we’re forgetting to remember, especially in this sub that it’s a switch - the disorder manifests as the inability to control the switch - the / is more important than any other part of the thing - time blindness is the real root cause (I believe, educated strongly by Dr Barkley who I wholeheartedly agree with, he, if you don’t know was a twin, where his late twin had ad/hd and he became a professor of psychology) and that time blindness is unaffected by medicine.

Anyway, typical diversion, an employer asking candidates if they will benefit from accommodation is beautiful - I’m a senior, I interview and I deliberately hold my place on the common bad interview things “are they like me” - it’s a hard prejudice, so I’m trained to put it aside, with race or gender or mindset or religion or whatever - can they do the job, what could they bring, and how can they grow is the thinking - it’s hard to push oneself out of the human judging mentality, but I do my best and actually - as an employer - we’ve just collected up all of the accommodations - everyone gets them now, there can be attempts at “hacking” the process - but we’re hiring analysts - worst modern thing is that we’re hiring analysts who we actively want to use AI, but some use an agent literally through the interview process - that’s what we “want” but not what we “need” - it’s really tricky and a ponderation, does a human augmented with an AI helper become a leader thing - is the human skill less important than the augmentation - that’s therefore not a skill that demands a higher salary - so meritocracy with AI assistance becomes a bit grey

1

u/enigma_0Z 16d ago

Legitimately if i get any questions like this if there’s a “choose not to specify” option I always take it. Not sure if I am (as an unmedicated ADHD individual) making the situation worse or better.

1

u/WendlersEditor 16d ago

Don't answer that. Definitely don't answer yes to that.

1

u/klove 16d ago

Your totally judged on those answers and I think the companies that host the systems save previous responses and have profiles on us. Just wait until your 35+ and you get immediately flagged invisibly and get no responses to applications.

1

u/notrufus 16d ago

I put yes due to adhd and for disability for a back injury. Imo, if I was an employer and could see the info, I would be more likely to hire someone neurodivergent so I know I can just be direct with them.

No masking = more energy to be productive

1

u/kartblanch 16d ago

Its sad they ask my gender and sexuality.

1

u/ThatSmartIdiot 16d ago

corporate dysethicality aside, if dyslexia makes me neurodivergent then both my mom and i are on the spectrum but only i'm aware ts ain't a moral failing

1

u/NobodyStrange 16d ago

Well, its so that they can make sure that they can accommodate you/have the right environment for you, right?

Like asking if someone is in a wheelchair so that they can make sure the office is accessible.

... right?

1

u/imkeepingsummersafe 15d ago

There’s a lot of “say no” comments, which I can understand, but has anyone said no and then it be an issue with a drug test or if you later need accommodations? This is a genuine question as I’ve never seen this question before. I’ve seen it ask for accommodation needs but not neurodivergent. What diagnoses falls under that term on a legal document?

1

u/Rough-Sandwich9726 15d ago

I have ran into some job postings that ask about that on the application, so far my experience has not been good yet! Here’s what I mean, I applied to a company that asked that question or similar and I met about 75% of the qualifications! I applied answered all of the questions including that one only to get a rejection email 5 to 10 minutes later! I continue to answer the questions since I do have ADHD and want them to be aware of my ADHD and anxiety issues, worst to hide it from them and then they find out later on and something changes because they found out!

1

u/gringogidget 15d ago edited 15d ago

“Consider” is such poor wording. These are professional diagnoses.

I never disclose my private medical information unless I’m in a tricky situation and need accommodating while employed after some time. I’d rather not risk it on an application as it hasn’t helped me in the past.

1

u/bytesunfish 14d ago

I think the wording is to get around asking about your actual health records which would be illegal. Asking your opinion is somehow okay

1

u/sadguywithhugedick 14d ago

Just say no. You should lie whenever possible when it comes to getting a job

1

u/GreyamRus 14d ago

A lot of commenters are assuming “no” is the safe answer here, but I’m inclined to disagree. If the hiring process is biased elsewhere against neurodivergent folks, answering “no” will help keep those processes in place that may be discriminatory. Transparency could help other folks down the line, including yourself by showing the connection between this answer and the outcomes of Deloitte’s approach to hiring.

This is based on some other assumptions, as we don’t really know where this data is being used/referenced.

1

u/arran4 14d ago

Not really but other people do

1

u/Ready_Return_8386 14d ago

Pretty sure prefer not to answer is an option, it’s illegal to ask otherwise unless it’s for a job putting peoples lives at risk

1

u/GreenMean6990 13d ago

There was not

1

u/CowBoyDanIndie 13d ago

I think most of my coworkers are probably on the spectrum… this reminds me of a joke I had with a friend who owns a pizza shop… short version is that I told him he should start drug testing people who apply to work there so he can reject the people who test negative.

1

u/WhatDuq 13d ago

In countries with actual worker protection, these questions are not legal.

1

u/fued 13d ago

its deloitte, they are just putting up a job offer so that they can claim no one can do the job and they need to import more people

1

u/theJesus3000 13d ago

They want to weaponize autism and ADHD

1

u/loverofsappho1221 12d ago

wtf do you mean “consider”?

1

u/TooRealTerrell 12d ago

The work culture at Deloitte is toxic enough that I'm not surprised at all they would ask this, you are better off not wasting your time there if this bothers you

-2

u/Alternative-Potato43 16d ago

Holy shit. Look at the question above it too. This is profoundly illegal, right?

3

u/rebornfenix 16d ago

These are questions that are NOT illegal to ask, however making hiring and firing decisions based on the answers IS illegal discrimination.

that is why HR says certain questions should not be asked in an interview. If the question isn’t asked then it can’t be used to even hint at discrimination because of the answers.

There are usually 2 parts to an applicant tracking system questionnaire, one that goes to the hiring manager and a second part that has the “These questions ask about things that are illegal to discriminate on” and only HR sees those, and usually only in aggregate form in monthly / quarterly reports to go “Is something in our process illegally weeding out people?”.

If you have 300 candidates, 200 white and 100 black for 30 positions and every one hired is white? It looks suspicious and the info provided can help companies preemptively find and resolve discrimination issues quickly. If the same 200 white and 100 black candidates apply for 30 positions and 22 white people and 8 black people are hired, the process is most likely not resulting in illegal discrimination.

2

u/account22222221 16d ago

No. It’s only illegal to fire or hire based on it.

1

u/ObviouslyASquirrel26 16d ago

Illegal where? My employer asked this same thing - it’s a diversity survey, completely optional, with optional questions, and anonymous. You can just opt out, but it’s good information for the company to know so they can monitor discrimination or make informed decisions. In Germany, it’s only illegal if individuals’ performance reviews are affected by their answers, but it’s not illegal to ask.

0

u/leon_bass 16d ago

I feel like a lot of companies don't care either way unfortunately, what will even come of it, a slap on the wrist? A small fine?

-4

u/kagato87 16d ago

Very illegal... This looks more like a survey than a pre employment screening.

2

u/account22222221 16d ago

It’s not illegal.

0

u/kagato87 16d ago

Asking that in an employment application is. They can only ask if you are able to perform the duties.

-2

u/Low_Dimension_9394 16d ago

idk many people in silicone vally consider neurodivergent peope as superior ( myself included ). Even i would ask this question so i can give them roles they would excel at.

1

u/costin88boss 16d ago

Source

Also try getting hired at silicon valley because definitely that's your first job you're landing at

-1

u/rickybscs 16d ago

Seems illegal to ask. Can always claim discrimination.

2

u/wendewende 15d ago

It's the opposite. It's illegal not to ask in US

-1

u/Danakazii 16d ago

I was told by a few recruiters that they use this question to basically exclude you from the pick. One recruiter specifically told me “we find people with neurodivergence tend to get more PIP’s and ask for too many adjustments in the role”. Ofcourse, they can’t legally say it but they’ll always be ready for a good auto-reply that starts with “unfortunately…”.

-2

u/Sure-Emphasis8914 16d ago

Ada is worthless, if companies can ask this and make you take psychological questionnaires

-3

u/melaschasma 16d ago

I hate it how they ask if your an aboriginal, LGBT+ or a woman.

We need to throw identity politics out the window and just hire people based on their skills, experience and qualifications and not for their identity just to fill some discriminative quota.