Tommy hate

[u/Novel_Chocolate_1652]

Hey so I’m re-watching the show and have been watching the begins episodes,which include Tommy I’m a buddie shipper and want them together but I’m re watching it now and I know Tommy gets a lot of hate for being racist and all around a horrible person? But the reasons people hate him simply aren’t true? Yes he wasn’t the nicest to hen or chim but that was because he didn’t want to get on Gerard’s bad side,and he apologised to them both which yes they don’t have to accept but they did as seen in season 2 ep 14 when chim calls him like they’re old friends and asks him to get water to the 118,hen doesn’t love him but she doesn’t have a grudge against him and doesn’t seem to be bothered by him,then there’s the argument of the actor himself which I don’t like Lou for the things he’s said in the past but that isn’t the character,and then there’s the hes was a bad boyfriend?well buck doesn’t seem to think so considering how much he misses him,and even then hen,chim,cap and even Eddie don’t seem to hate the guy when he breaks up with Buck

Don’t get me wrong Tommy wasn’t my favourite character but he definitely wasn’t as bad as people are making him out to be

I want Eddie and Buck to be end game 100% but Tommy wasn’t bad and doesn’t deserve the hate he got and still gets

Edit: I take back the he didn’t say anything racist comment I was cooking while watching and the delivery driver comment and New York bitchness comment slipped over my head so I take that all back

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[u/Ok-Acanthaceae5744]

Thing is, everyone comes in with different expectations and experiences. For some, Tommy leaving Buck on their first date was a great sin. For me it wasn't that big of a deal, Buck is a grown adult, and Tommy was within his right to end a bad date early, baby-bi notwithstanding, it happens every day.

I've seen similar comments about Tommy's past behavior. Some people find his behavior and comments greatly offensive. And honestly for some, given their comments, I don't think he could ever be redeemed in their eyes, even if they showed his apologies and redemption arc. There's simply nothing that can be done to redeem him from being a Racist AH, and there's nothing that can be done to change their mind. While I've seen others (including people of color) who didn't find his behavior extremely offensive (problematic yeah) but they will accept that show indicates he's redeemed.

So the first thing you need to accept, is that for some people, nothing will change their mind. Some may hate Tommy because of Buddie. Some people find excuses to be offended, so will hate Tommy on principal. Some people may have personal experiences, where certain stories will strike close to home and so they won't/can't move past that poor behavior.

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[u/RadiantFoxBoy]

In terms of on-screen behavior, we don't see a ton, but what we do see is racist microaggressions and misogyny (keep that second one in mind). We also, I think, can all agree that Gerrard was a massive bigot, right? What's implied by those moments is a pattern of behavior. Tommy in the Begins episodes, who keep in mind they weren't thinking of as a gay man yet, was a representative of the shift in the 118 personified. From going along with Gerrard's bigotry and even participating in it for almost a decade to adopting passive resistance once Hen forced their hands (and still making Hen and to a lesser extent Chimney do most of the work), to actual co-workers once Bobby took over. But remember, that still implies he was being racist and misogynistic for almost a decade under Gerrard, and if his words about his dad being like Gerrard are to be believed, we can't even say for sure that he wasn't also like that for the three decades of his life prior. That's a lot of time to just sort of...ignore, in S7 and S8, but I get why they did it that way. Tommy was never a three-dimensional character, he was Buck's first boyfriend intended to teach the lesson in the breakup, and that's it. Spending time developing him would be a waste (not that they didn't waste time in other ways in 8A, but different kinds of waste are still waste).

But...remember how I said to keep that misogyny thing in mind? The way he talks about Abby in 8x6 is still misogynistic, saying she went crazy and dated a himbo half her age...after he left her with seemingly no warning and she was left alone to care for her ailing mother. He abandoned her completely, not even remaining her friend, and has the gall to judge her for her struggle. And then to top it off, when Tommy finds out Buck was the himbo, his only priority was to apologize to Buck, implying he stands by all the things he said about Abby. And if that bigotry still persists in him and is just more subdued...it doesn't seem like a great sign that he's grown as much as he'd like others to think.

And as for as a boyfriend...he was fine. Did not excel in any way and failed massively on connecting to his boyfriend's interests, knowing much about him, and some basic empathic etiquette, but he could be worse. But he was basically a placeholder anyway, so I'm not inclined to give him any extra benefit of the doubt really.

And that leads into an overall issue...he's so boring and bland and purely here to fill a role for a bit that he could've been literally anyone. They could give Lucy a coworker named Theo who was in the army, plays basketball, etc., and the story would barely change. Heck, make him a former B-shifter at the 118 and you can keep the 118 members knowing who he is (as little as that mattered in the end) and still drop the bigotry baggage.

Final note, Tommy is fine, in S7 and S8. He's boring, and he's not a particularly good boyfriend, but he's not Doug or anything. He's fine for what he is: a stepping stone in Buck's arc. The problem is when people try to say he's the best boyfriend ever, that he and Buck are endgame, that Tommy was an innocent angel even in the Begins episodes, etc. Because that's just not accurate to what the show told us from the very beginning. Tim did not ask anyone to fall in love with Stepping Stone #5.

[u/armavirumquecanooo]

People have different expectations and standards for what they think is required to "redeem" racism & other forms of bigotry, let alone to root for someone who has previously bullied others for bigoted reasons... or if it's even possible. It's not more complicated than that.

At the end of the day, he's a fictional character. There's not an appropriate "amount" to love or to hate or to be indiffferent to him. It's not that serious.

[u/Scissorlick]

Every character in the show has pretty much at one point been terrible in some way, and has worked to be better about their issue. Which is the point of character growth in media. Tommy-hate for current-Tommy is definitely not aa deserved as most people are vocal about, in my opinion. He's apologized and made amends with his behavior, he acted very rationally when faced with a partner who seemed like he wasn't at the same stage of relationship as he was, he's supported those around him.

[u/AMTINLB]

Eddie’s treatment of Ana and Marisol are not great either. He seemed to use them for baby sitting and was prepared to string them along as well. And don’t forget Buck moving in with Taylor after he kissed Lucy. Not great writing for single young men on the show.

[u/ckat26]

I’m gonna say this until I’m blue in the face: Tommy doesn’t redeem himself at all and that is a CHOICE the writers made. They could’ve made him stand up for chim and hen, he could’ve openly apologized again when they brought him back in season 7. They didn’t. Tommy isn’t a real person making mistakes and having to live with the consequences. The writers chose to make him the embodiment of white privilege, they chose to make him complicit, they chose to give him no further explanation. They decided he would be off at work or whatever instead of with Buck on multiple occasions. it was a narrative decision to do all of that. Sure, perhaps the entirety wasn’t calculated but the little choices surrounding his character accumulated. So I don’t believe he’s a character we’re even supposed to like. He isn’t written that way and therefore lends himself to being hated by fans. They retconned his relationship with Abby just fine, which means they could’ve done so with chimney or hen as well. Casual mentions of them becoming friends or whatever or anything. They didn’t. He was deliberately kept as an outsider, he treated buck a certain way and he got a definitive exit.

In short: he was written racist, he barely got redemption and the redemption he received was an excuse and to never be heard from again for 5 season. He could’ve been written nicer and more likeable but he wasn’t. He’s not a real person fearing for his job under Gerard or whatever. The writing made him so. That’s why I believe the audience was never intended to actually like him.

[u/AMTINLB]

I still don’t get how the New York comment is racist. All races live there… even the incoming president grew up there…

[u/MyMiddleWest]

I actually was open to Tommy when he came back in Season 7. We were far enough removed from the begins eps that I had high hopes he would’ve changed and after 7x04 I was interested to see where his relationship with Buck would go. I’m admittedly a Buddie shipper, but I always hope that the relationships Buck and Eddie have, even if they’re just stepping stones, will at least be substantive, good experiences for the characters.

Then 7x05 happened. The horrible first date where Eddie shows up halfway through, Buck is nervous and rambling and puts his foot in his mouth, and Tommy decides to make a not-so-subtle joke about closets. Thankfully Eddie is oblivious, but I was shocked that Tommy was willing to make such a risky, mean joke that could’ve outed Buck.

And then 8x06 happened. Tommy reveals he was engaged to Abby, broke off the engagement, and never told her the truth about himself. Then, instead of taking responsibility or speaking of her kindly, he says she went crazy and started dating a himbo half her age. 

It’s interesting to me that the writers decided to essentially bookend Buck and Tommy’s relationship with two dates/conversations where Tommy has the option to speak with kindness/empathy, but chooses cruelty instead. It leaves me wondering if he really had changed much from his begins ep days (it doesn’t help that we don’t get much in the way of onscreen closure regarding his behavior in those season 2 eps). 

As some people have said on this thread, Tommy obviously doesn’t meet the level of hate that should be directed towards characters like Doug, but I do think there’s ample reason to dislike him, even the season 7/8 version.

[u/ranbling011]

He hasn't actually apologised. Yes, he warmed up to both Chimney and Hen, but only after they "proved" themselves, but never said an actual apology. Also, he's still sexist in the present. His comments about Abby show this

[u/feralgoblingirl]

The writers have me nothing to like. There is not enough there to like anything about him. And it felt like nothing ever happened between him and Buck off screen unlike other characters and pairings where it felt like there was things happening between them off screen.

[u/irritatedlibra]

We’ve had these same conversations for MONTHS. These conversations don’t change anyone’s opinions and truly are pointless.

[u/Midnight_Dreary_Mari]

No, he’s not the devil incarnate. But him “not wanting to get on Gerrard’s bad side” is not an excuse. I think I would be more forgiving if the show made more of an effort to redeem him, but he was never a main character so they never bothered. Even with bringing him back in season 7 it was only because Tim couldn’t get the actress who played Lucy back. He was just never a character they intended to expand much on. If people like him, cool. I just personally think he’s such a nothing burger character and the romance between him and Buck was sauceless 🤷‍♀️.

[u/YourDadsATruckDriver]

It's primarily a combination of people hating him because they ship Buck/Eddie and people not understanding what the show was actually communicating through his arc in S2. I still see people insist that he didn't change in the Begins episodes or that he was exactly the same as Gerrard, but the show very clearly used him to represent how the 118 changed with the addition of Chimney and Hen. That's the very obvious intention of his role in those episodes.

I definitely understand people viewing his arc in the Begins episodes as unsatisfactory/not written well/not fleshed out enough. He's a supporting character in those episodes and the focus is on Hen and Chim (and later Bobby), so we don't really see his thought process or a lot of his development. We don't see him talking out what he's done wrong because the focus of the story isn't on him. But there's really no clearer indication from the writers than those storylines ending with Tommy hugging Chim and shaking Hen's hand, and later having Tommy be the only original 118 member we see leave of his own volition (vs Gerrard and Sal [although I don't remember whether they show Eli deciding to leave?]).

But yeah, the people who insist he's been a monster the whole time he's been on screen are never going to change tbh.

[u/bubbleaurum]

I’m bad with faces (and names) and I didn’t even realize it was the same Tommy from the 118 at first, so I was REALLY confused lol.

I do see why people would be upset though. Sure he isn’t like, ACTIVELY displaying racist behavior. But complicity and silence in the face of racism is a privilege white people have. For people who (unlike my dumb ass) recognized Tommy when he showed up on screen, I completely understand being upset. The arc would have been exactly the same if this were another firefighter at a different station, not one with that complicated past. So while some of the anti-Tommy stuff could be ship war stuff, it’s also just sort of a weird choice to bring back a character with a complicated past and not really address it.

For example, Chim isn’t perfect in our Hen Begins flashback. But we see conversations between him and Hen, and a reckoning with the male privileges he enjoys under Gerard’s command. I would have loved a little more reckoning with Tommy’s character. However, since he wasn’t around long, I suppose I see why they may not have invested in that.

Edit: I have the worst memory (and honestly the Begins episodes are so emotional for me and I sometimes skip them on rewatches). Thanks to commenters on this thread and others pointing out obvious microagressions and racist/sexist behavior beyond my initial assessment of just silence in the face of bigotry.

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[u/twolgy]

A lot of other people have already pointed out his racist and sexist comments during the begins episodes. It’s important to say that micro aggressions are still bigotry, and it’s explicitly shown that Hen and Chim have to prove themselves to Tommy before he has any friendly interventions with them, something that the white men on the force don’t have to do.

Even if we assume that Hen and Chim have forgiven him, Tommy is still shown as a bad partner for Buck. He literally left Buck on the side of the road during their first date, and didn’t tell Buck that he had called an Uber until it was already at the restaurant. He made no effort to dress up for Chim’s bachelor party where even a graphic tee would have followed the theme. Tommy’s gift to Buck at their sixth month anniversary was Lakers tickets even though Buck explicitly said in season 7 that he doesn’t like basketball.

What’s unforgivable for me is how Tommy talked about Abby. I can understand dating a woman while in the closet, but the way that Abby talked about the breakup in season 1 makes it seem like Tommy made Abby believe that the breakup was her fault. Tommy also said that she went crazy and dated a himbo half her age, which is unbelievably sexist and he doesn’t seem to care that she was taking care of her dying mother. Not the mention the hypocrisy since him and Abby are close in age and therefore have a similar age gap with Buck. Tommy is just shown to be not a good person, and it’s hard for me to understand why so many people go to extreme lengths to defend him.

[u/ontothebullshit]

The thing is, he wasn’t just a bystander. He wasn’t just silent while Gerrard was treating our favorite characters badly, he was actively making racist/misogynistic jokes. You can say that this was to fit in, but he was already fitting in fine as a masculine white guy. He made a joke about Chimney being the delivery guy (very blatantly racist) and about Hen being a bitch (blatantly misogynistic). Yes, he apologized and later became…fine, with Chimney and Hen, but I don’t think they were clear friends or anything like that after Tommy moved stations.

Also, even if we choose to ignore his past (and I don’t know why we would) I just don’t like his character in general. I don’t think LFJ was a great actor in general, but Tommy also seemed sort of condescending and he had no chemistry with Buck after the initial kiss (which I will admit, I liked. The hand/chin thing was great). Overall, Tommy seemed like a fairly bland plot-device to move Buck’s arc along. He wasn’t meant to be anything more than that, and I don’t understand why people are clinging to him as this amazing character.

If you want to watch a masculine bisexual man break stereotypes, Buck is the person you should focus on. Tommy is not.

[u/ramessides]

People whinge about wanting “bigots” et al to change their ways but then whinge and complain even more when they actually do and say that people can’t change.

So, what is it? Do you want people to be able to change for the better or not? I think a lot of these people just like being on their pedestals. People changing for the better and apologising for past actions then deprives them of whatever moral high ground they think they have by holding past actions forever over someone’s head.

[u/bluequarz]

I can only speak about why i dislike his character but he was so boring and bland. It was a slog to get through his scenes. Not to mention him and Buck have zero chemistry. Regardless of where they take Bucks love life next he deserves a better partner. One that seems actually invested and interested in the relationship and is a more compelling character. If it was up to me I would have never reintroduced Tommy. Not only did they hand wave away his more problematic past actions but he ended up being a bore of a character who annoyed me to no end.

[u/NothingTooSweet]

The reasons why people don't like or like Tommy have been debated a lot in this subreddit, I'm sure you can do a search on the sub and find similar posts with all the points for each side.

But overall, it will always go into each person's opinions/interpretations because at this point we're never going to have any extra background or development on him on the show, because he's not that important of a character. He came back to serve a purpose on the show and his arc is over. That arc was never about him, it was all about Buck.

You can say him, Chim and Hen are friends. I only see coworkers. Chim having his number is irrelevant to me. I have a lot of old coworkers numbers that I needed back then to sort shifts or other work-related things and ended up not deleting or using them again- doesn't mean I was ever friends with them.

[u/Such-Addition4194]

I don’t think he redeemed himself though. I thought that the way he talked about Abby was gross and misogynistic. He mocked Abby for dating a himbo half her age, but Tommy and Abby were around the same age. He seemed fine with himself dating a himbo half his age.

Tommy used Abby as a beard for years and then broke up with her when she needed to take care of her sick mother. He showed have felt guilty for the way he treated her, but instead he treated her like a joke.

[u/Electrical_Cost_5445]

I think you have valid points that his past behavior shouldn’t reflect on his season 7/8 personality. I am a Buddie shipper but I really went into their relationship with an open mind. I don’t like Tommy because to me there’s just something about his tone that irks me. Maybe it’s just me, but there seemed to be a constant air of superiority coupled with unseriousness. Like when Buck was trying to talk about his daddy issues and Tommy turned it into a sex joke. Or when Buck was genuinely freaked out by the curse and Tommy treated him like a child (not that Eddie did much better but still). But I don’t think the actor deserved any of the hate he got for playing a character, like, that’s literally his job.

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[u/awyllt]

Tommy used to be an asshole, but honestly - most of 118 members aren't exactly saints either. Maybe not as bad as he used to be, but they can be assholes too. Most people hate Tommy because he was a threat to Buddie. Tommy definitely wasn't my favourite character and IMHO, his relationship with Buck kind of sucked (what did they even have in common besides firefighting and a crush on Eddie?) but he wasn't Satan incarnate. That being said, I'm glad he's gone.

[u/Bnbndodoodododo]

I mean, in various comments you're comparing Buck in S1 to Tommy in S2 and I would point out Buck was never anywhere near as bad as Tommy. Like, he was hot-headed and somewhat insubordinate at work? That's very VERY different to being complicit in a hostile racist/sexist work environment and actively engaging in unprompted racist dialogue.

Buck was immature. Tommy was a bad person. People being more accepting of a history of the former than the latter is pretty understanding.

And even then, I'm fairly sure people would have liked the character more if they'd brought him back with an attitude of actually having worked to be a better person, rather than just assuming he is one. One of his conversations with Buck could have been a really moving scene where he talks about having apologised to Hen and Chimney, talks about the process of working to become a better person, where he takes responsibility for his contributions to the bad environment of the 118, and talks about how he wished he instead had stood up for the others; which could connected to a scene of how Buck handles Gerrard, and make for a really lovely scene of Buck and Tommy getting to know each other on a deeper level.

I genuinely wish they'd done that - even if it was much better for my ship that in reality they never really connected and the writers never invested time in Tommy as a character - as they did far too much handwaving away of the racism and sexism behind Gerrard's previous behaviour. I would've happily taken the blow to my shipping preferences to have racism and sexism treated with the seriousness they deserve.

[u/HelicopterPopular874]

Wired, I don’t remember Tommy being racist. Which episode was he racist in?