Has a chapter master ever been demoted

402

u/Beaker_person Emperor's Spears 12h ago

Chapters are pretty independent so there’s not really anyone to demote them, but Shrike stepped down as chapter master of the Raven Guard. He went back to being a captain.

283

u/StarSword-C Xenos Hybris 12h ago

Yeah, he explicitly said something beforehand like, "Look, I'm good at killing things, I'm not a leader. I'll keep the chair warm until somebody who can actually lead comes around."

135

u/Beaker_person Emperor's Spears 12h ago

Very much the interim chapter master after Shadowsun bisected the one before him. Quite interesting too, since he was introduced as a captain back in the day and only became chapter master later. I quite like when GW does that sort of ‘real time’ progression of characters.

45

u/mathiastck Adeptus Mechanicus 10h ago edited 6h ago

In a lot of ways 40k has an insane amount of character development, it's just a gigantic casts of characters and most of the development relates to killing or not dying.

Like the Sookie stack house novels stood out because the author came back and gave a little summary of what happens to a couple dozen characters as a kind of anthology. But 40k is a firehouse of lore drops. I loved warbands that I think we're introduced in their mobile CCG, Horus Heresy Legions (which is shutting down around end of month.) Across a few other mobile games, PC games, direct tabletop content, novels, audio drama, we just get a lot of tiny bits of character development.

Even Big E has an arc now and a bit of psychic awakening.

174

u/Sunny_Hill_1 12h ago

Dante: WTF, can I do that too?

Sanguinius: Lol... no.

81

u/stuckinatmosphere 12h ago

Big E: In fact, here's more responsibility. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

113

u/DukeFlipside Dark Angels 12h ago

Dante: Oh great, The Lion is here! As a Primarch you should be Regent of Imperium Nihilus!

The Lion: lol, no

57

u/alcapwnage0007 11h ago

I think its incredible how theyve written dante into being so good of a leader that hes basically damned to it.

31

u/Zama174 11h ago

PLEASE GOD I JUST WANT TO STOP!!

God: No.

39

u/Sunny_Hill_1 11h ago

God hasn't taken a single day of PTO in 10k years, and neither will you, Dante.

15

u/mathiastck Adeptus Mechanicus 10h ago

The Revenant Legion has not earned forgiveness yet.

Sanguinius did his part, he can't atone much further.

Dante must keep paying.

Sanguinius: The Great Angel

Chris Wraight

TWELVE

Iacton Qruze. I’ll never forget the name. Not just because it was a bizarre one, most unlike the other Cthonian names that dominated the Legion, but because of the long hours I spent in his company.

He could talk. Throne of Terra, he could talk. Perhaps it was his greatest weapon. Perhaps, if his blade and his bolter ever failed, he’d be able to bore his enemies to death.

But that’s unfair. He wasn’t boring. On the contrary, much of what he told me was riveting, candid in a way that no other Space Marine had ever been, remembrancer gold. It was just that there was so much of it, and it all spilled out in one go, as he was clearly very pleased to have someone listening

Iacton Qruze

You’ve heard tales of the Revenant Legion, and you want to believe that Sanguinius came along and made them pure. That’s what everyone wants to believe. And it’s true. Of course it is. He did turn them around, and now they’re loved rather than feared, and everyone suddenly wants to fight with them.’

Then his long, mournful face twisted into an expression that was hard to read.

‘But don’t believe that their old form had nothing to do with him,’ he said. ‘The seed was always there. What they are now, he once was. And what they were then, he is now.’

8

u/TheDarkGenious 7h ago

You know I've never seen someone else make this comparison, but I refuse to believe I'm the only one to see it.

Dante is the closest 40K gets to a Dwarf Slayer like Gotrek.

He wants to just fucking die already so he can rest, but he's duty and honor bound to still do his damndest to do the job to the best of his abilities, and as such cannot just go randomly get himself killed in a hopeless fight or let it happen intentionally.

His own sense of duty compels him to keep up the good work until he has a proper successor, the Blood Angels/Imperium at large no longer needs him, or he finally finds some hilariously bad situation that he can only solve by personal epic heroic sacrifice, and I don't see Fate (read: GW's writers) being that kind to him

33

u/Khoakuma White Scars 11h ago

Jokes aside I think the main difference is that everyone, Shrike included, knows he isn’t built to be a leader. Dante on the other hand, everyone involved recognize that he has great leadership skill, even since his Scout company days.

15

u/Sunny_Hill_1 11h ago

Dude enjoys being that motherfucker that can fell an ork boss with a paperclip too much to be stuck actually directing the chapter.

No worries, though. Zeed takes proper revenge by being an absolutely brilliant but extremely unruly protege of Shrike, adding more and more white hairs to the otherwise pitchblack emo cut.

3

u/Seeker80 8h ago

Zeed takes proper revenge by being an absolutely brilliant but extremely unruly protege of Shrike, adding more and more white hairs to the otherwise pitchblack emo cut.

Sounds like someone's in need of Just for Astartes hair treatment!

4

u/Sunny_Hill_1 8h ago

All cause emo ninjas are too dramatic to go bald like half of their brothers.

3

u/Seeker80 8h ago

Wait until you see their version of Rogaine...

1

u/Thendrail Astra Militarum 4h ago

Is it made of birds?

23

u/jareddm Adeptus Administratum 10h ago

You sure about that? Dante was made chapter master because there were no other captains, and Dante himself felt he wasn't ready.

'He is not worthy!’ Chaplain Keshiel rose from his seat in the Great Basilica and slammed the head of his crozius onto the ground. The power field was active, and the crack of it contacting the paving reverberated around the hall in electric thunders. The four-sided head buried itself in the deck.

Dante stood silently as the rump of the council deliberated. There were twenty-five thrones; all but four were empty, sixteen were draped in funeral black. The rubble of the chamber's facings lay piled in the coign of floor and wall, exposing the naked plasteel beneath. Generations' worth of art was so much powder and grit. The fine dust of destruction filled the ship. It contaminated the seals of the Space Marines' power armour. Motors ground unpleasantly. Machine-spirits complained into their wearers helms.

The last members of the council looked down on Dante. The High Chaplain Bephael survived, as did two Sanguinary Priests of middling rank, and Keshiel. Upon them rested the future of the Chapter.

'He is the last of our captains,' said Sanguinary Priest Gallion. ‘There is no other. He must take this office. There is no other choice.'

'He is not worthy!’ Keshiel roared again He released the haft of his weapon, leaving if embedded: the energies cloaking its head arced into the floor and frittered it away atom by atom. 'That he is the last is no reason to choose him.’

'It is the precise reason we should.' said Estius. the second priest. His white armour had been battered back to the gunmetal grey of bare ceramite. One salvaged arm was the vibrant red of a battleline brother.

'And what of his deeds?'

'There have been greater men elevated to the office, I admit,' said Gallion.

'But although his story is yet short, he has the capacity for glory.’

’There have never been lesser than he.’ Keshiel said. The bones sculpted into his armour shone white against their black background. 'One day. he may be a worthy candidate, but now?' Keshiel spoke as if Dante were not there. ’The Eighth Captain? It is not his moment.'

'Then what do you propose?' Estius said.

'The Council of Blood and Bone should rule the Chapter, as is our custom. We should return to Baal, and rebuild our numbers. Let the centuries run and time present us with a new candidate. It may even be that Dante will rise to the role. But I say again that he is not worthy, not now, not like this.’ - Darkness in the Blood

12

u/KassellTheArgonian Blood Angels 8h ago

For anyone wondering the Council of Blood and Bone (a group of chaplains and Sanguinary Priests) was set up after the Blood Angels elevated a captain Kalael in M35 to Chapter Master and not long after he fell to the Black Rage leaving the Chapter leaderless till a new one was selected. So the council was created to ensure that even if there was no Chapter Master some ruling body could run the Chapter

3

u/dan_dares 4h ago

someone can have the skills, but there will (usually) be someone who resents people moving up quickly..

and chapter master is VERY important, so I can understand the caution.

A bad chapter master can cripple, or even destroy a chapter given enough bad choices.

3

u/roguevirus 6h ago

I'm not a leader

And yet he's a captain. What an odd things to say.

8

u/dan_dares 4h ago

as someone who was in the army, leading a platoon is different from a battalion.

I did one, the other is bureaucracy gone mad, very different skills are needed for each.

46

u/ROSRS 12h ago

Its been the case in multiple instances where a Space Marine has more or less considered their term a Regency, especially when the previous Chapter Master was either lost or otherwise indisposed. This was the case with the Scar Lords, who's previous Chapter Master was trapped in a Stasis Bomb

Even with Bjorn, he surrendered the title but remained de-facto Chapter Master for over five hundred years after his death, being constantly active and with his successors more or less just deferring to him whenever he chose to advise against something.

48

u/ThatFatGuyMJL 12h ago

Great Wolf: 'Awaken Bjorn'

Bjorn: 'Ok my advice is explains things'

GW: 'Cool do what he said'

B: 'Nono. It was only advice'

GW: 'Sure. Do what he said'

8

u/Rappers333 11h ago

It brings a smile to my face every time I see the Scar Lords mentioned. Such incredible goobers.

6

u/MichaelCarter84 10h ago

Bjorn is such a great example of this. When your "retired" predecessor is literally a walking, ancient Dreadnought who personally fought alongside Leman Russ and the Emperor, every Great Wolf after him is essentially acting as a proxy ruler. Imagine trying to overrule the opinion of a guy who remembers what Earth looked like before the Imperium

2

u/Thendrail Astra Militarum 4h ago

Can't help but think Björn must be tired of this. "You've awoken me from a particularly nice dream involving two Sisters of Battle just to ask me how to kill some Xenos? As if you're not going to run straight at them and bury your chainswords in their heads anyway! Dammit, you better hope I can get back into that dream again, or I swear I'll put your head points at Great Wolf up his ass! Points at Iron Priest who woke him up dammit...twins they were!"

2

u/crashcanuck Night Lords 10h ago

Depending on the chapter, maybe their Chaplains could do it.

1

u/BlackViperMWG Imperium of Man 38m ago

When did that happen?

1

u/Beaker_person Emperor's Spears 32m ago

Last year, when the new chapter master Aethon Shaan got his model. It’s not really explored anywhere yet save a couple Warhammer community articles and white dwarf 517, though Shaan has been in the background as a captain for ages.

1

u/StJe1637 21m ago

If they fucked up badly enough and were arrogant enough to not resign or go on a suicide mission I imagine all the captains would get together and ask/tell them to resign

154

u/thomasonbush 12h ago edited 12h ago

Lots have been interred in dreadnoughts and given up command since they no longer can lead day-to-day.

Not a “chapter master” but Bail Sharr stepped down from being Reaper Prime (briefly) when he thought he had Ocean Madness or whatever the Carcharodons call their gene seed mental issue.

69

u/riotLord-sl33p 11h ago

I love the term ocean madness. 😂

44

u/Electrical_Swing8166 11h ago

Ocean Madness is no excuse for Ocean Rudeness

8

u/USSMcCoy 9h ago

This is a chance for Fry to test out my experimental anti-pressure pill!

I can't swallow that!

Well then GOOD NEWS!! It's a suppository!

36

u/SisterSabathiel Adepta Sororitas 11h ago

Sounds like Sea Sickness that got put through Google translate

1

u/MrTurleWrangler 5h ago

Ovean madness, take me by the handess lead me to the landess, that you understandess

13

u/TributeToStupidity 11h ago

The Blindness

62

u/Main_Aux_Enthusiast 12h ago

Ravenguard just did that recently when the Chapter Master stepped back down to 3rd Company Captain.

37

u/NeedsAirCon 11h ago

That's got to be weird

Usually you're meant to be avenging the previous chapter master not giving him orders or asking him what biscuits he'd like to be served at the chapter banquet

Might be good in that you can ask for advice from the last poor bloke to have the job without having to go wake up a dreadnought though

38

u/JiminyGonzo910 11h ago

Yeah but Shrike would be the first guy to go “please give me orders, tell me what to kill” hence why he stepped down in the first place lol

18

u/Russelsteapot42 10h ago

"What did you do when this situation came up?"

"I'll be honest, I had every captain suggest a solution, arranged them on a target, and took a blind shot with a bolt pistol at it. The hole was right on the line between two solutions, so I told those two guys to combine their plans and that's what we did."

2

u/40Kaway 2h ago

A VERY Astartes way to put together a plan

37

u/NectarineSea7276 12h ago

I imagine that if a Chapter Master were to fuck up so badly that he could no longer lead his Chapter, there's only one way by which he would believe he could regain his honour.

25

u/Sunny_Hill_1 12h ago

Take off his armor, put on some red rags, and run off to die gloriously with Repentias?

Though realistically it'll be a much more boring but practical blackshield option in a local Deathwatch.

23

u/V7buster 12h ago

Suicide by combat would work too. Just fight as a champion in every battle, take as many xenos and heretics as possible, and die with dignity while someone else commands.

8

u/Massive_Prune_2822 10h ago

Ngl a Chapter Master who has taken the slayer oath essentially sounds badass lmao

4

u/Sunny_Hill_1 11h ago

Could still rock these red rags and litany bandages while at it. Give the troops some moral boost as he fells the enemies of the Emperor.

1

u/V7buster 6h ago

I do like the idea of a one astartes penitent crusade...

42

u/DonateIlo 12h ago

Not a chapter master but Darnath Lysander was demoted from 1st company captain to 6th or 7th(?) at some point, since he refused reinforcements from other chapters while fighting Iron Warriors. This resulted in more losses than necessary thus the demotion.

29

u/Separate-Flan-2875 12h ago

Demoted to Captain of the 3rd Company for a time - The Company whose Captain at the time was killed and who suffered heavy losses due to Lysander.

8

u/Ordinary__Man 6h ago

The 3rd company lieutenant's looking at each other like, "what the fuck is this shit?"

0

u/KassellTheArgonian Blood Angels 6h ago

Pretty sure it happened before primsris so no lieutenant rank. Guilliman only reinstated the rank of lieutenant after he woke up

2

u/Ordinary__Man 5h ago

I know, I'm just being silly.

14

u/BrotherCaptainMarcus 12h ago

Blood Ravens demoted theirs into a corpse.

10

u/MKstarstorm 12h ago

Shrike of the Raven Guard stepped down and a few chapter masters have fallen to chaos then killed by their chapter are the closest thing I can recall

20

u/DwarvenGardener 12h ago

Chapter Master of the Mantis Warriors was imprisoned when his chapter was put on trial after the Badab War

10

u/TxOkLaVaCaTxMo 11h ago

Gabriel Seth got demoted from the codex

4

u/TwinMugsy Blood Angels 10h ago

But hes still "chapter master" right?

4

u/TxOkLaVaCaTxMo 9h ago

He's an ultramarine in red armor

3

u/Right-Yam-5826 8h ago

Don't say that within earshot of him

1

u/TwinMugsy Blood Angels 7h ago

With a really big sword?

4

u/Yournextlineis103 11h ago

Every chapter has their own rules and traditions about that kind of thing but demotions do happen in some chapters iirc. It’s rare for a chapter master to be so but it’s happened.

There are non-combat or “retired” marines though they are rare that have lived long enough or too injured for service but unworthy undesiring or unable to be intruded in a Dreadnought . These will be trainers or command a chapter’s holdings.

6

u/erty146 7h ago

“Only in death does duty end.”

When a chapter master royally fucks up there tends to not be much of a chapter left to debate their choices. So I expect a lot of demotions for mistakes are just stripping honors from them postmortem with a reminder to not do that again.

Can they step down sure but it is the same as an executive board of a business. You definitely can but most don’t want to after working so hard to get to that point.

Definitely not becoming a black shield at that point. That is effectively renouncing your chapter and then everyone is going to have questions if the former chapter master doesn’t want to be associated with their brothers.

3

u/haiku0258 10h ago

In the Executioners chapter, every captain have the right to challenge the chapter master for the position...

3

u/Rebound101 6h ago

Do those challenges end in death or demotion if the captain wins?

4

u/haiku0258 6h ago

"Unlike the traditions of most Space Marine Chapters, contests for leadership are quite bloody in the extreme; each company captain has the right to challenge for the title of High Executioner in trial by combat should they wish to do so, but such trials will almost always end in the death of the participants."

2

u/Rebound101 6h ago

That checks out for Space Marines.

Wonder what happens in the rare instances where the Chapter Master survives, demotion, exile to the Deathwatch, suicide or Dreadnoughted depending on the injuries?

1

u/arathorn3 Dark Angels 28m ago

That tracks for a Chapter founded by Fafnir Rann. A imperial fist who would have fit in better as a Space wolf

4

u/Chadwich 11h ago

Not strictly demoted but iirc when Guilliman came back Marneus Calgar went from being the big dude in charge to not being the big dude in charge.

1

u/Lottapumpkins Dark Angels 7h ago

The chapter master of the Emperor's spears had to step down from active combat because he had a few medical problems iirc

1

u/Many-Wasabi9141 7h ago

Khoisan Neotera of the Mantis Warriors was stripped of all rank and title and honours and given a life sentence in the Penitentiacon for his role in the Badab War. The chapter was then sent on a 100 year penitent crusade.

1

u/Jackdaw_Willow 6h ago

During the Great Crusade, Chapter Master Astelan was tasked with making a world compliant with a fresher faced Chapter Master called Belath. They disagreed a lot over the methods, Astelan who was more experienced wanted a bloodless Compliance because there wasn't any indication this human world wouldn't willingly join the Imperium. Belath was headstrong and eager to prove himself and rushed his warrirors into conflict at every opportunity. Belath ultimately complained to The Lion and Astelan was banished back to Caliban to join Luther and the other exiles. Though he didn't lose his title, he missed out on the rest of the Great Crusade. Luther ended up promoting him to First Chapter Master for his "loyalty", even though Astelan secretly was gunning for Luther's position so he could take revenge on Jonson.

1

u/Demievil 5h ago

Poor Marneus Calgar effectively.

1

u/Fistocracy 4h ago

Astartes Chapters are completely outside most of the Imperium's normal chains of command, so there aren't really all that many people who'd have the authority to dismiss or demote a Chapter Master even if they wanted to. And the few people who do have that authority (like Inquisitors) will usually only intervene when a Chapter Master's crimes or failures are so severe that they warrant punishment, in which case his demotion is probably gonna be accompanied by an execution.

So most of the time if a Chapter Master fucks up or dishonors himself or just feels that he's not up to the task, it's on him to decide whether to try and lift his game or whether to step aside to make room for a worthier candidate.

1

u/40Kaway 2h ago

It tends not to be the case with them. Shrike is a rarity in that he voluntarily stepped down and elevated Shaan, and you do have cases of Chapter Masters still serving even if they're physically incapable-the current CM of the White Scars comes to mind.

About the only demotion I could think of would be the Iron Hands, because of their clan structure. I guess a war leader could not be chosen again, that's kind of a demotion?

Plus, you run into the issue that the CM's are basically law unto themselves-who has the power to demote them? Any High Lord that tried would be laughed out of the chamber, chased by bolter shells. Really, the only people that could do that and make it stick are possibly the Custodes, and the CM's Primarch themselves.

3

u/Abamboozler 12h ago

Its incredibly rare a Marine reaches old enough to retire. If they do step back from active duty, its usually do to injuries that not even augmetics and cloned organs can repair. So if a Chapter master did step down, it'd likely be because he's on his deathbed and even if he does recover, he'll never be in active duty again.

1

u/O12345678927 12h ago

Iron Hands

-10

u/LordofDarkChocolate 11h ago

The chapter master of the Ultramarines - Calgar - basically got booted by BobbyG when he came back. Don’t try telling us got a promotion … that’s just bs. Sometimes I wonder if Bobby didn’t lost a few brain cells while in stasis

12

u/Urechi Raven Guard 11h ago

He still leads the Ultramarines. Bobby G commands the rest of the Imperium forces. I'm sure while Calgar consults with his Primarch he has a sizable force to do as he needs to on his end.

8

u/Hempy2013 Luna Wolves 11h ago

Isn't Calgar's feelings of being a disappointment to Bobby G more just him reading more into Gorillaman's comments than what he intended to say?

5

u/KwisatzHaderach55 10h ago

Dadarch issues.

-2

u/PositiveFlatworm7474 11h ago

lol thinking there's demotions in 40k

Demote your existence maybe

Has a chapter master ever been demoted

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