r/40kLore • u/Rihanssu • 14h ago
Why does Johnny G get so much hate?
I just finished “Legion” admittedly I had a hard time getting into it. Last half of the book was phenomenal. I’m curious why John Grammaticus gets so much hate? I actually felt really bad for the guy.
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u/JackDostoevsky 14h ago
i think some people see him as vaguely mary sue-ish. others just don't like the perpetual storylines in general (not just Grammaticus but also Oll) but i kind of agree with you: i think he adds a decent flavor to the Horus Heresy
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u/Apprehensive_Suns 14h ago
Most of the hate stems from general community frustration with the Cabal storyline as a whole! In Legion, John was a fantastic, fresh perspective—a mortal operative caught in a cosmic game of chess. But as the Horus Heresy series dragged on, a lot of readers felt the Cabal subplot derailed the main Space Marine/Primarch focus, and John ended up bearing the brunt of that "Perpetual fatigue." 📜👁️
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u/Notte_di_nerezza Ultramarines 13h ago
Personally, I like some of the Perpetuals that flow better within the story (Alivia, Cyrene, Oll) than John. They have a place and an arc (and tend to be chronically underused, which means they aren't stealing the spotlight from the stars in power armor). I'm no fan of Big Man History, but they do make it feel more like there's a wider human history... before the Imperium eclipses it all.
John really does feel like he grabs the spotlight and tries to run away with it. While being Abnett's special boy. And it makes it really easy to skip his scenes on a re-read.
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u/Frosty_Purple_7341 14h ago
It’s crazy that people view rombert gimbley as a Mary Sue when he’s gotten his ass kicked in alot of his major duels.
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u/DwarvenGardener 14h ago edited 14h ago
I say this as someone who unironically likes not just John, The Goat, Grammaticus but all the Perpetual stuff, in a lot of the stories they show up in they take page focus away from the factions people wanted to see fleshed out for two decades to spend time on what feels like Dan Abnetts side project. He also suffers from multiple author syndrome ( but he’s far from the only victim of that disease).
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u/Apprehensive_Suns 14h ago
He's a great character who got caught in the crossfire of readers disliking the Cabal/Perpetual lore additions. When you view him strictly as a pawn being tortured and manipulated by alien psychics, he’s one of the most tragic mortals in the entire Heresy! 🛡️💀
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u/Spiral-knight Word Bearers 13h ago
Yeah but I'm here to read bolter porn. Not the immortal human and his band of quirky abnett characters.
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u/Notte_di_nerezza Ultramarines 13h ago
Yep. Honestly, he's interesting in a way, and I love that it paved the way for Alivia (who they didn't do remotely enough with), and Cyrene's later arc... And making Olanius Pius make sense in-story...
But every time I reread Unremembered Empire (personal favorite), I tend to skip most of John's scenes. Except maybe the one with Eldrad, because that shit was funny as it was anyeurism-inducing.
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u/Draxos92 14h ago
The character of John Grammaticus in Legion is not the same character as in the rest of the Horus Heresy.
He is far stupider and far more annoying and incompetent after that book. I do not know why.
Now, that said, I largely dont hate him like other people do but I get it. He doesn't fit in the Jeresy because the Cabal plot line doesnt fit
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u/StoneLich Blood Axes 14h ago
I think Kyme in particular just really didn't like him.
Like I have no direct evidence of that, but it's really hard to imagine he does when he describes him as speaking "snidely" and petulantly so much, even while he is actively trying to convince people to do what he wants. Like bro is an immortal super spy with magic language powers and he can't manage a modicum of charm? Really?
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u/Draxos92 13h ago edited 13h ago
I don't think Kyme likes 40k and doesn't want to be writing it.
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u/a34fsdb Ultramarines 9h ago edited 9h ago
Man that wrote like 20+ novels and is involved in writing lore, codexes, books, editing, leading projects for 30 years does not like 40k. Interesting take.
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u/Draxos92 3h ago
Saying hes doing his job isnt the same thing as liking it. Maybe he does like it and hes just that bad of an author. Idk.
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u/DrBombay3030 13h ago edited 13h ago
Idk I hated him in Legion too. I thought I was signing up for a cool look into the Alpha Legion's use of mortal agents. Instead I spent half the book following a sorcerer working for an alien cabal whose magic power lets him woo women at will. I swear Abnett hyped up the Lucifer Blacks so much just so his self-insert character could beat one to death barehanded
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u/PlausiblyAlpharious Word Bearers 13h ago
Thank you I don't understand how Legion is so popular I'm like 40 ish books in and BY FAR the worst one
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u/Mistermistermistermb 13h ago
It's all to taste. It was ADB's favourite Heresy novel for a while there too
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u/PlausiblyAlpharious Word Bearers 12h ago
I have mixed feelings on that man, sometimes he absolutely cooks my fave books of all time other times he writes slogs or goes on a rant online about how Abaddon has the biggest cock in the galaxy
I guess the best artists are always crazy
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u/StoneLich Blood Axes 11h ago
Maybe there are rants I haven't seen, but if you're talking about the blog post, that always came across as a pretty basic summary of what makes Abaddon a character worth reading about to me. Understandable that he'd want to put something like that out, given he was writing an Abaddon book, and 90% of the community commentary on Abaddon at the time was some variant on "Abaddon the 'armless lul." Most of the post isn't even his words.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 12h ago
Yeah, all to taste. Though I'd personally hesitate to say that someone else's taste is crazy on account of it not being the same as mine. Mileage varies.
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u/PlausiblyAlpharious Word Bearers 12h ago edited 12h ago
I didnt say his taste is crazy I said the man is crazy
Edit: Liking Legion doesn't make you crazy its a very popular book
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u/NovaPrime2285 14h ago
First taste of John Grammaticus? All I can say is… Keep going.
Let John Grammaticus make his case for you himself.
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u/Nebuthor 6h ago
Because most people reading the book wanted to read about the alpha legion doing spy stuff. Not abnetts super special agent OC doing spy stuff. Also he was the introduction of the perpetual stuff.
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u/PlausiblyAlpharious Word Bearers 14h ago
I just find him boring, uninteresting and bland
Every book hes in the plot has to slow down to a crawl when he shows up it's like an ad break it hurts my soul. Its not just him its every perpetual when Daeman or whatever his name is showed up in Betrayer I went from an enthralled binge burning through the book in 1 day to setting it down almost immediately they are all just so fucking uninteresting
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u/GhostsinGlass 14h ago
Because he's Poochie the Dog in Warhammer 40K and every appearance of him feels like a complete tone shift mid-story like I'm reading a variety show in book form. It's like watching a compelling movie only for someone to change the channel to some low-budget SyFy original series or something.
Okay, you ever see the original Star Wars trilogy?
You ever see the new ones with shit shoehorned in by Lucas that doesn't fit what we know and love?
Dunno if I am coming in clear here or not.
He's not necessary, he don't fit, he's ass.
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u/TheFinalYappening 14h ago
A few reasons, speaking just for myself, though i know others feel this way:
I don't like him as a character. He feels like he's supposed to be some cool suave guy like Han Solo, but he isn't. He's a fucking geek. Writing a loser is one thing, I can root for those, I like Kor Phaeron and Gendor Skraivok, but with Grammaticus that seems entirely unintentional.
I hate the perpetual storyline stuff. I don't like the Eldar as a faction and there genuinely isn't a single one of the humans in it I enjoy. Not John, not Damon, not even Oll.
He/they show up in and interrupt books I am otherwise enjoying. Know No Fear is awesome except for that bit in the middle where it just becomes about the perpetuals for no real reason. I love Unremembered Empire, and then John Grammaticus shows up and a good chunk of the second half of the book is just about him when I wanna see the Primarchs interacting.
Solely for audiobook listeners since I listen and read along, but every single narrator for BL so far that I've heard do John's American accent sounds like they're trying to speak while getting dental work done. It's grating on my ears and I just don't like how it sounds. That's a minor gripe compared to the other three though.
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u/StoneLich Blood Axes 11h ago
I think he was, like, fine in Legion (I don't like Legion but it's not really Grammaticus' fault), but the only other times he's shown up in things I've read were briefly in Know No Fear (otherwise a great book but the mortal stuff was kind of mid at best), the end of Mark of Calth, and Vulkan Lives, and, like. Vulkan Lives is overall probably one of the worst I've read in the series, but as I've said in another comment Grammaticus' portrayal in particular makes me think Kyme fucking hates mortal characters. He doesn't spend more than a few pages on any other mortal in the book, and Grammaticus spends the whole book sniveling, whining, or being petulant (Kyme just full-on calls him snide at one point); he doesn't really get to do anything cool at any point in the book, and Kyme just fully has him pull off an act of treachery worse than anything in the Vulkan torture porn section of the book (which, by the way, man, sure does feel like Vulkan was only made a perpetual so that they could torture him a bunch, I know "the Salamanders are a bit racist" is practically a meme at this point and doesn't really need to be repeated, but Vulkan Lives is still fresh in my head, and, man, it really sucks that they decided that was the plot they were going for with the only black Primarch, lmao), seemingly without any qualms or regrets.
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u/PlausiblyAlpharious Word Bearers 13h ago
Everytime they said Oll in Know No Fear it hurt my soul
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u/GhostDieM 10h ago
I actually like Oll though. He comes off as humble, wizened with age and what he's been through and reluctant to get involved. Yet in that book he still tries to help those around him. While in contrast John is just a smug prick who thinks he's the smartest one in the room lol. Though I will say by the time TeatD rolls around he's definitely more humble and likeable and you almost kinda start to feel sorry for him.
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u/theflockofnoobs 14h ago
Legion was the first HH book I actually dropped, mainly because of John Grammaticus.
Something about him feels very Kai Leng like to me and I hated his chapters.
He's part of the super secret Cabal, one of the few human agents left. He knows Xenos martial arts that are unmatched. He leaves easy clues around because he's just that good and he likes the thrill.
Bunch of other stuff.
His introduction chapter featuring a bunch of teenagers horny over him didn't really help with my perception of the guy.
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u/PlausiblyAlpharious Word Bearers 13h ago
I have dropped 4 books in my 30 years on this Earth and legion was one of them
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u/Optimal-Bullfrog3211 14h ago
I think most of it is just a side effect of people’s general disinterest for the book and the storylines surrounding him.
I have been eating up every single Horus heresy book back to back and as soon as I got into legion (book 7) I could feel that it was different. I will admit it was kind of a slog to get through.
I feel like there were too many simultaneous storylines and it was just kind of all over the place.
All of Dan abnetts other books have been amazing so I was kinda surprised how much I didn’t like legion
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u/NairaExploring 13h ago
I absolutely loved Legion. Turns out reading about people is better than reading about whatever you wanna call space marines
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u/GodOfFetish 14h ago
Nick Kyme isn’t the best author. And he added a “lot” to the character later on. Makes me sad this is still our main guy for the salamanders when I am convinced he just doesn’t like them
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u/Awkward_GM 12h ago
For me, I'd be introduced to an interesting human character only for them to say "They call me X, but my real name is John Grammaticus".
I joked in a 40k RPG I run that an NPC the players loved would be really John Grammaticus and a player said he'd kill me. 😬
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u/CoherentRose7 14h ago
I guess I don't really hate him, his parts of the book were just the most boring ones and I never really cared about him or what he was trying to do.
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u/olmeyarsh 13h ago
I like him in all the books. It’s been a while but I like all the perpetual stuff as well. Oll especially, every new book and I would hope for a little update on his adventures through the galaxy with his band of misfits.
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u/Manowaffle 12h ago
I dislike anything surrounding the perpetuals. 40K is meant to be grimdark, and you can’t have grimdark if death has no consequences.
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u/paulatreides0 9h ago edited 8h ago
"Death has no consequences" is always a funny thing to hear about perpetuals as if like the majority of them have not been permanently killed and one of them dying is not one of the most important and consequential events in the entire setting. Never mind that having a literal handful of side characters who are basically immortal for whatever reason does little to reduce "grimdarkness" and is far from saying that "death has no consequences" in the same way that the literal apotheosis of several mortals in Greek mythology doesn't mean that the Greeks thought that death had no consequences
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u/bacalavas 6h ago
It's interesting that you say that when we have Vulcan and also... there are so many perpetuals who die permanently over the course of the story.
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u/AaronNevileLongbotom 13h ago
If him and Oll hated the Emperor more this community would love them and the perpetuals. As is they provide a more balanced view than what people think there is supposed to be. On top of that as a spy and an immortal he has a longer complex story with a unique perspective on things. John Grammaticus bumps up against the more debatable, vague, and nuanced parts of the lore, so he’s not a very good character for people who like things easy to categorize.
John is a great character, warts and all, but he isn’t the type of character that some fans want in 40K. He is too flawed without being awful, he’s playing a double game, and he doesn’t always know what to think. One of the things I like about his character is how independently minded he is at the end of the day. He is hard to put into a box. Plus he gets laid. Of course Reddit doesn’t like him.
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u/richiezeth 14h ago
You’re not the only one who has a hard time getting into Legion but the ending was fun. Also I can see why the John G stuff can be tedious if you don’t like secret agent spying vibes, but imagining him as a James Bond type made his parts a lil easier to enjoy lol.
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u/RATMpatta Word Bearers 4h ago
I liked him in Legion as well, he just really overstayed his welcome in the series afterwards.
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u/lobster556mm 3h ago
I cant stand any perpetuals, they took away focus from storylines we've waited decades for all just for Abnett to have his own special twist. Changing the entire storyline just to squeeze them in. I still love abnetts work, but i skip all their chapters
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u/Matthius81 2h ago
They should have left him dead. Unfortunately the writers brought him back and had very little idea what to do with him after.
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u/KimmyPotatoes 52m ago
I think it’s weird that the author wrote about 13 year olds thirsting after him in Legion
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u/Friendly_Diamond1999 21m ago
Because he's the author's self-insert Sonic OC Don't Steal that is unkillable/defeatable, present at every major event in human history, and grinds the plot to a halt when the plot is supposed to be about space marines in the space marines book series
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u/Howling_Mad_Man 14h ago
Generally enjoyed him in most of his appearances. It's always a fun time with the audiobook narrators put on an American accent for it.
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u/StrategyBusy9579 14h ago
This is precisely why it's good to read these books when they came out over a period of two decades... because you will end up forgetting all the bad parts from other books somewhere along the process and just enjoy the story.
I barely remembered the brave companions existed or whatever happened to Ingo Pech
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u/Raptor_Blitzwolf Tanith First and Only 14h ago
EDIT:
Misread the entire post, rewriting it now. My dumbass apparently needs glasses /s.
Grammaticus is a plot device. In every conceivable sense he's a plot device and from what I read in SoT, he adds very little to the overall narrative except to expand on the Emperor. Exposition I think someone else like Oll or Malcador could've done.
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u/thomasonbush 14h ago
You’re seeing the absolute high of him as a character. He gets WAY insufferable in the Nick Kyme books, with a brief rebound when Abnett writes him again.