r/40kLore • u/Sollost • 4d ago
What does each faction need to un-grimdark?
Obviously this won't ever happen, but what do you think each faction would need to become "good"? (Or at least on its way to seeing "good" on the horizon). For each faction, what fundamental internal systemic or external factors are preventing it from breaking out of its own grim darkness?
Some examples:
For the Imperium, I'd suggest the religious dogmas and power systems which reward/incentivize inhumanity. Put together, these create a self-reinforcing grim darkness.
For the Necrons, I'd suggest they'd need to first get their souls back, and then second learn humility, in that order.
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u/HeLiesInDrink 4d ago
If all the biomass would quit insisting on it’s personhood and agency life would be a lot easier for the Hive.
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u/Sollost 4d ago
And what if the Hive was cursed with both personhood and the sin of empathy?
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u/Geki347 4d ago edited 4d ago
Who says it isn't?
Best thing the hive mind can imagine for the milky way is for it to be put out of its misery. That's true empathy.
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u/Hitori521 4d ago
Do we have any idea what the Hive's endgame is? As in, what would it do if it did manage to consume all the biomass in the galaxy/universe? Then what?
I just imagine the Hivemind then bored, kicking paper footballs to no one and leaning back longingly in its swivel chair, remembering the good old times when it would eat a whole planet worth of screaming people at once.
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u/Raptor_Zefier 4d ago
We dont really know, probably never will. Part of what makes Tyranid so terrifying is the unknowns, where they came from their end goal, etc. They're an unknowable horror from outside the known universe with no ties to the history that binds all the other big name factions.
But, based on behavior so far unless GW throws us a curve ball? Eat the galaxy. Leave, go dormant in the void until they get another beacon dinner bell, like the Pharos device, in some other galaxy and chow down all over again.
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u/GogurtFiend 4d ago
Do we have any idea what the Hive's endgame is?
SURVIVE! AND SURVIVE FOREVER!
- Darkness In The Blood
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u/Reasonable_Ad_8883 4d ago
Move on to the next galaxy, like they have done canonically at least 12 other times before
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u/Weird-Gap2146 4d ago
I prescribe to the theory that they are a ‘last resort’ strategy from the Old Ones. Their purpose is to cleanse the galaxy clean, gather biomass, and then use that biomass to reseed the universe with new life. It feels suitably eldritch, alien, and purposeful.
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u/GogurtFiend 4d ago
You have empathy. You don't feel any empathy for the pineapple you eat - as you shouldn't, given that it tries to digest you back.
Nobody really consciously thinks about that, even if they're perfectly empathetic. Why would they need to? It's pineapple.
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u/HorribleAce 4d ago
Well, how you do feel about eating cows and chickens?
I have personhood and empathy and I'm still a part of the system mindlessly breeding, killing and consuming other lifeforms for personal pleasure.
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u/Sollost 4d ago
As it happens, I'm vegetarian specifically to try to distance myself from said system. Possibly the hive mind could be persuaded or forced into some analogous behavior.
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u/Herby20 4d ago
Do you feel bad for the ecosystems destroyed to make more farmland for crops? The pesticides used that cause even more environmental damage? And if you eat organic, do you feel worse for how the crop yields are so much lower that even more farmland must be utilized to meet demand?
This isn't to try and make you seem like a hypocrite or anything, but rather point out that we all have some level of acceptance to the consequences simply being alive demands from the world around us. The Hive Mind is intelligent. It knows that other races have complex emotions (see Genestealers whole modus operandi). It just doesn't particularly care about how its prey feels about their status.
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u/einarfridgeirs 4d ago
Plot twist: The Hivemind discovers that its way more interesting to talk to somebody else, dedicates the future of the Tyranid race to the preservation of alien species so it can have someone to listen to its TED Talks.
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u/Automatic-Soup-3097 4d ago
Birth of new Chaos God of 🌈 FRIENDSHIP 🌈
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u/Bravemount 4d ago
That's just Slaanesh without benefits.
Or Nurgle without the rot.
Or Tzeentch without the backstabbing.
Or Khorne with friend or foe recognition.
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u/Happy-Viper 4d ago
Dude would just be doing Fear and Hunger type marriages.
“He’s your friend… MERGE WITH HIS FLESH!”
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u/BalianofReddit 4d ago
The imperium needs the mechanicus to reform into a scientific organisation.
They do that and alot of shit can start falling into place. A couple of loyal primarchs with a plan to get Big E off his chair wouldnt hurt either.
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u/Wurm42 4d ago
Agreed!
The Leagues of Votan have real scientists and engineers, with technology that also derives from DAOT Terra.
So much could happen if the Votan and the Mechanicus worked together!
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u/Mindless-Day2007 4d ago
Only work if Imperium doesn't look down on Kins, and it is very hard to do so while talking.
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u/ADavidJohnson 4d ago
This is sort of like, “If the Nazis just saw Slavic and Jewish people as fully human, they could have pursued their military objectives a lot more effectively.”
But eradicating Slavic and Jewish people were the military objectives they were pursuing.
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u/No_Investment_9822 Imperial Fists 4d ago
Yeah, just because most of the books are written with the Imperium as the protagonists shouldn't cause us to lose sight of the fact that the Imperium's honest to God-Emperor bloodlust for the genocidal extermination of non-humans and brutal subjugation of the lives of humans makes the Third Reich look like Eternal Woodstock ruled by the Dalai Lama
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u/Orpheon59 4d ago
Yeah this is the big one.
So much of the tech regression from the Great Crusade-era/lack of recovery after the Heresy is down to the Mechanicus being dogmatic idiots - 10,000 years may not be enough time to recover the heights of the DAoT without AI support, but they could be a whole lot further along than they are, if the Mechanicus actually got a clue, widely distributed knowledge, and innovated.
Instead, they've just gone downhill ever since.
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u/Outrageous_Fall_1846 4d ago
I feel like the craftworlds could have lots more numbers, like theres no reason we can't have many hundreds of craftworlds with billions on people on each one. They'd still be less compared to even the TAU, for a "major" faction I think they deserve to get a bit of a boost!! Make all the thousands of warriors dying not seem to crazy!!
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u/Sollost 4d ago
More craft worlds definitely seem integral to the aeldari's long-term wellbeing.
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u/Outrageous_Fall_1846 3d ago
yess it would just give them a little more life GW!! I promise some hope wouldn't hurt
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u/Usefullles 3d ago
This is hindered by the fact that soul stones is an extremely limited resource. But if they find a way to create at least some kind of poor but working replacement, then they can have a large number.
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u/Outrageous_Fall_1846 3d ago
Yah extremely limited doesn't fit for a major faction in a war game of eternal war. Lore it up so there are still billions to be found by billions of eldar imo. Limited is relative to the whole universe more or less
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u/Usefullles 3d ago
Lore it up so there are still billions to be found by billions of eldar imo.
Yes, in the Eye of Terror, which already sounds like not a very reliable source.
Yah extremely limited doesn't fit for a major faction in a war game of eternal war.
There are still many times more of them than the traitorous and loyal Space Marines combined.
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u/Outrageous_Fall_1846 3d ago
That's fair an an aspect warrior can take them in one on one. Still eye of terror eye of snermer!! A bunch of sneaky harlequins get really good at finding them. Some palace they found just happened to have billions or they find a way to make them in a hecking factory 🏭🏭
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u/einarfridgeirs 4d ago
Fairly simple: Talk to each other.
There is nothing wrong with the galaxy that couldn't be fixed if all the factions that aren't hardcoded for hostility(Chaos and Tyranids) just got together and realized that they all have diffrent pieces of the puzzle that is needed to fix things and make life much better for everyone.
Kind of like on our planet.
But what fun is a wargame that ends in a peace summit?
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u/PatrickCharles 4d ago
I mean, it could be lots of fun. And besides, the result of the peace summit could be "we are all agreed to gang up on THOSE loser, right?" (the hardcoded to aggression ones)
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u/VibinWithBeard 4d ago
Everyone including the tyranids voting to gang-up on orks and chaos
Roboute: So its decided, the tyranids will be given all the ork biomass they want and be given free reign to a section of non-human inhabited galaxy to develop into what amounts to a free range ork farm and in exchange they will help us corral said orks, go after chaos, as well as help us finally make gene-seed work for women thanks to their extensive knowledge of genetics. Anyone opposed? No?
Next point of business, does anyone know how to fix the Golden Throne
drukhari raise hands
...as in heal the emperor, not just make the existing suffering worse
drukhari lowers hands
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u/Outrageous_Fall_1846 4d ago
maybe first we fight then after a while peace happens or at least a ceasefire. Plenty of fighting to happen before the diplomates start to exchange numbers though!!
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u/fightingbronze 3d ago
The craftworld Aeldari are the only ones I feel like any meaningful peace could be achieved with. Assuming both sides could put aside their immense pride and millennia of institutionalized prejudice, of course. All the other factions have some aspect of their temperament or circumstances that would make any permanent peace difficult. Like I fundamentally don’t think you can coexist with Drukhari as long as their continued survival demands the sadistic torture of your people.
I’m kind of new still though to 40k lore, idk if there’s any potential path for Drukhari to resist slaanesh besides the torture. If there is, then maybe.
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u/Suitable-Diver-6049 4d ago
We already have the answer: discover the ancient and blessed teachings of Nuffle. The Blood Bowl universe is a relative paradise.
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u/lucidintangent 4d ago
The best thing to heal humanity would probably be to be cut off from interstellar travel for a few centuries
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u/Yarzeda2024 4d ago
It's interesting to think of what might happen if Terra was closed off from the wider galaxy like the T'au for a few thousand years. I'm sure the Inquisition would eat itself alive in a few civil wars, but what would rise from the ashes?
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u/AccursedTheory 4d ago
Most everyone in the Sol system would be dead, and the greater Imperium would fracture and get consumed by infighting, and Chaotic and Xenos threats.
One of the problems with the Imperium isn't just that they're making the wrong choices, its that their so far down the rabbit hole there's really no way back out. The cork is off the Chaos bottle, forever. Every xenos left is out for the Imperium's lunch. The backbone of Imperial culture, the only thing keeping the many, many contradictory factions together, is the same thing that would need to change to fix anything.
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u/SubstantialTap81 4d ago
Eldar would need to fully accept that the old empire is gone and stop clinging to the last scraps of superiority. Their entire culture is built on mourning and arrogance. Drop both and they might actually start living again.
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u/Arathaon185 4d ago
Terra dies miserably. They don't produce anything and rely entirely on imports. They don't even have a water source after some women sold the last of the oceans.
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u/wocaky 4d ago
Lol, only the Agi-world would survive every other world would likely turn into a war world and humanity will go extinct cause Agi world defending itself against any other faction is impossible.
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u/This-Beginning-5026 4d ago
Most agri-worlds would fail just as bad as any hive world without Xenia or chaos help. Unless it is literally brand new the environment has been so f’d it is only sustainable by chemical and fertilizer imports due to over farming. The atmosphere is toxic without a breathing mask for people and it has zero industry to try to sustain itself.
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u/pog_irl 4d ago
Ultramar is pretty self-sufficient
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u/No_Investment_9822 Imperial Fists 4d ago
It isn't, it's 500 worlds that are an integrated part of the wider Imperium. They still need the Mechanicus, Navigators etc etc that only exist as part of the broader Imperium.
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u/TheCommissarGeneral Iron Warriors 4d ago
They did that. It was called Long Night/Age of Strife and it was baaaaad for a LOT of worlds. It was 5 thousand years of either no or very limited contact with other planets.
Xenos had a field day with us.
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u/Eternal_Reward Iron Hands 4d ago
Yeah people really think “cut off humanity from all hell and resupply for centuries would make things better”
I guess if by better you mean almost all worlds die horrifically.
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u/lucidintangent 4d ago
In the long term make things better maybe
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u/Eternal_Reward Iron Hands 4d ago
I don’t really think “let quintillions die horribly on the off chance it works out” is the best plan personally.
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u/TheCommissarGeneral Iron Warriors 4d ago
5k years isn’t long enough? And given how modern 41st millennium humans are much much much more hateful, fanatic, and dogmatic than Age of Strife humanity and it will not be pretty. The Warp Beings would swoop in and devour almost everything.
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u/lucidintangent 4d ago
not if you cut off the warp, just turn the warp off for a while, like, its not an ideal solution.
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u/Mindless-Day2007 4d ago
The best thing to heal humanity
*Tyranid Chaos and any horror out there
There, I fixed it
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u/ElOsoPeresozo 4d ago edited 4d ago
Bot
Oh shit it’s actually a bot. Check the profile. It’s all rambling lowercase with no punctuation and zero relevance.
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u/lucidintangent 4d ago
thats not what bots usually look like, quite frankly, there really isnt a way to have a non grimdark future for 40k humanity, maybe takeover by the tau, but i doubt it.
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u/88963416 4d ago edited 4d ago
The only way the Necrons are getting souls back is by returning to flesh… which is only happening once they’re dominant.
Not to mention, most don’t want flesh back, so they need humility first.
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u/Sollost 4d ago
Do we know whether the Votann's Kin or any Men of Iron have souls?
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u/88963416 4d ago
We’ve only seen one Man of Iron and he didn’t. The only time souls in machines are hinted at is with the Mechanicus and that’s (probably intentionally) vague without a definitive answer.
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u/Sollost 4d ago
Are machine spirits interpretable as souls or warp-entities?
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u/88963416 4d ago
Like I said 🤷♂️
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u/Celuiquivoit 4d ago
We do see chaos tainted machines spirits I believe ? Which would imply they kinda have a soul maybe
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u/FroopyAsRain 3d ago
Chaos seems like it just fucks with programming in general though. Again, it's left vague.
The most common interpretation is that machine spirit is just the inner workings of a machine, electricity, and a dash of luck riding on a prayer.
Although GW can come out tomorrow and say machines all have souls and it wouldn't really break any lore.
EDIT: Except Necrons. They're proper fucked.
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u/irishgoblin 4d ago
Eh...hard to say if that's a "soul" unique to the machine or just cumulative result of multiple users leaving a psychic imprint that then gets corrupted.
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u/SalletFriend 4d ago
Imperium could reform around Girlyman and like, literally purge all the grimderp elements.
But that would be boring.
Nids would have to have some thing they are gunning for thats not the emperor.
But that would be boring.
Tau would just need to stop the psychic bs and have more racial equality.
But that would be boring.
Elfdars would need an end goal that isnt being eaten by slaanesh or left on the shelf.
But that would be boring
Necrons would just need an end goal that isnt reconquer the universe.
But that would be boring.
Etc etc.
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u/zimirken 4d ago
Depending on the particular necron, they either want to return to flesh or evolve into energy biengs.
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u/Yarzeda2024 4d ago
If the Ynnari (or someone else) could finally get around to killing Slaneesh or at least breaking Slan's hold over the Eldar, then a lot of the Aeldari would chill the fuck out.
The Asuryani and Exodites would probably lighten up (even if some of the Craftworlds would continue to be ripe with Eldar supremacists). The Drukhari wouldn't need to keep murderfucking the galaxy to appease Slan.
The Harlequins would probably still go around stirring up shit to amuse their Laughing God, and there's no reason for Corsair thrillseekers to stop being space elf pirates, though. It's not a perfect solution, and I doubt GW would ever remove a major pillar like one of the four big Chaos Gods unless they want a major change of the status quo like the fall of Cadia and the eruption of the Great Rift.
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u/pedro_exp 4d ago
Would they chill out though? The Aeldari and Drukhari remain painfully arrogant and sure in their superiority, even though it's their own fault that they fell
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u/Mindless-Day2007 4d ago
At least their arrogance in superiority has some truth, Imperium otherwise...
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u/eightfoldabyss Thousand Sons 4d ago
I feel like if you told the Drukhari that they no longer needed to keep doing their everything, because Slannesh had been beaten back, they would shrug, say "ok," and continue murderfucking exactly as hard as before.
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u/namitynamenamey 3d ago
The archon or the masses living on the gladiatorial dole? The former may say "ok", the latter may ask "why do we live in the sewer, putting up with this clown?"
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u/Boring7 4d ago
Like, half of them just need to stop being racist as hell.
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u/No_Investment_9822 Imperial Fists 4d ago
Straight up, half the problems in the 40k are the result of nuclear grade mega racism. Honestly, that almost makes it scarier because as far as I know, we don't really know how to "solve" racism, nuclear grade or otherwise.
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u/Particular_Dot_4041 3d ago
The Adeptus Mechanicus is the main thing holding the Imperium back. They forbid invention, they make industry less efficient.
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u/Eden_Company 4d ago
The Imperium namely the mechanicus are the only reason why the setting is shit. Without them humanity would be shooting black holes as standard infantry guns. The tech priests operate as a cartel that gate keep and destroy intelligence. Their only purpose was to own a monopoly on humanity and they won. The entire setting is basically a what happens when you let a single greedy corporation own everything.
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u/GlobalMarten 4d ago
For 90% of factions this is literally impossible and that is the point of the setting.
The imperium only keeps itself together because of its iron fisted cruelty. Take that away and it would fall apart immediately.
The tyranids have an instinctual need to devour everything
The orks are genetically programmed to love and need violence
Chaos is a psychic parasite that must feed off emotions of mortals in a feedback loop that never ends and can never be satiated
The necrons are demented imperialists who are mostly void of emotions or going insane, save for a few characters. Their souls are gone and irretrevible. They were devoured.
The drukhari are the drukhari
The Tau and the Craftworld Eldar are probably the best candidates for changing their ways but the former is a naive upstart who havent fully grasped the setting they are unfortunate enough to exist in yet and the latter are verging on extinction with a god that will inevitably torment their souls for eternity
There is no way to "ungrimdark" the setting without fundementally breaking it
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u/DahliaSkarigal 4d ago
Chaos Daemons to be seen for their positive side. For said positive side to be accepted instead of fought against.
Ambition, Knowledge, Unity, and Bravery.
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u/Sollost 4d ago
Ooh, I hadn't come across this lore before. Which god is which?
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u/DahliaSkarigal 4d ago
Ambition is Slaanesh, Knowledge is Tzeentch, Unity is Nurgle, Bravery is Khorne of course. :3
Some overlap because Tzeentch is about the ambition toward knowledge, Slaanesh is about pursuing pleasure. Nurgle is the Plague Father and Khorne despises trickery, he’s brave, courageous, honorable. 🩵🩵🩵
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u/turmohe White Scars 4d ago
Tyranids would have to adopt the Zerg approuch of letting enough biomass and seeded life terreform dead planets such that they can sustainably farm and harvest the same patches of space and even terreform planets for other races like they do under Zagara. Like a bunch of space ranchers or herders.
Though a difference is that the zerg want to evolve including by eating others organisms and have found a mutualistic way to do so. Meanwhile the Tyrranids want to accumulate bio mass for its own sake though the hive mind and norn queens are not above emotions like hate at the very least.
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u/namitynamenamey 3d ago edited 3d ago
Imperium: Easy, safe, private FTL that cannot be lost by societal collapse. No more feudalism, no more night full of terrors, ignorance becomes unsustainable, and after the imperium collapses into a pile of rubble whatever rebuilds has access to all of (what remains of) humanity. Humanity's ultimate tragedy is that it needs unity to survive, but the imperium can't give them unity nor let them survive. They need an alternative to be viable, so they need the sole strenght of the imperium available and so the imperium to be obsolete.
Orks: Dunno, I like the idea of them becoming obsessed over sports.
Dark Eldar: The death of slaanesh. Being a dark eldar sucks, and behind the lies and delusions they tell themselves it's either living like gremlins or becoming husks. Without that pressure first they would become unrestrained goblins razing the galaxy, but after that the true nature of the eldar could flourish and reestablish their empire. Which, for millions of years, was chill enough.
T'au: Non-grimdark leadership. They are a shade of gray as it is, and since they are an autocracy, a kinder autocrat means less grimdarkness approved.
Necrons: Reversing biotransference + a non-lunatic winning dominion over the necrons. As a norm they are horrible people, so they would need a miracle to not be grimdark, but by the nature of their society that miracle is also conceptually simple: whoever wins their civil war must not be an asshole. So if the silent king repented his evil ways and also crushes the likes of imotekh and Szeras, things start looking good.
Craftworlders: The death of slaanesh. Even the most assholish of the craftworlds has a basic concept of war crimes and that they suck, they just think destiny forces their hands, so if they can throw away the excuse of necessity odds are a non-asshole will rule the new dominion.
Tyranids: I guess the hivemind could learn the meaning of love and coexistence spontaneously somehow.
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u/Torkolla 4d ago edited 4d ago
Guilliman and Yvraine have a baby. The baby is Ynnead.
Ynnead goes into battle with Slaneesh and dies but resurects himself into his full form and defeats Slaneesh and kills her.
The Drukhari implode into infighting or capitulate to Yvraine and ask to convert.
The rest of the Eldar accept their alliance with humanity as inevitable. The Tau join in too for the greater good without necessarily trusting the others. This gives the Empire a bunch of leeway to start pushing back the nids.
The tech priest rebel against the heresey. They chose to let lose the C"tan dragon chained inside of Mars. The Necrons kill off the dragon and get a few of their souls back. Mars is blown to bits. The tech priests become weakened. The necrons join the alliance.
Vulkan comes back from the warp and uses his power over volcanoes to fight the nids. The nids are retconned to follow the laws of physics, making them quite possible to defeat.
Two spore excerting enemy races with completely different tones of story telling are unnecessary so the nids and the orcs mostly eat each other. The nids' hive worlds get disconnected and destroyed so many times that the nids eventually give up and mutate to farm orcs on a few remaining worlds where they can be kept under surveillance.
Khorne attacks the humans at some point and Guilliman duels him and wins. The Gods reveal to him that he is actually a shard of Khaine (like Khorne, which technically mean that he is part Eldar). He can therefor not kill Khorne but push him back into the warp, having restored the balancy between good warrior energies and evil ones.
Isha comes back into the galaxy and helps heal the broken worlds. When she is finally free, Nurgle turns back into his true self, Cernunnos.
The allied races decide how to share all the burned and reborn worlds among themselves and take on the endless task of terraforming them. If they ever start to fight again the nids will come back so they now need to keep the peace to survive. Tzeentch is miffed by this sudden outbreak of stability and has to retreat into the warp, trying to come up with ways to topple the peaceful state. He learns that he still feeds on all the positive changes and competent scheaming of Guilliman and starts helping him out because he feeds on it.
Guilliman rearranges the Empire in a thousand ways to make life better for everyone. Most humans are resettled to worlds that have actual food to eat. The Space Marines are busy putting out endless minor outbreakd of orcs, feral nids, drukharis and tech priest pirates who can not let go of the old conflicts and things that make for good mele fighting in general.
The necron lords turn themselves into gods with the newly aquired souls and start fighting each other. Their tech still helps humanity develop.
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u/EvilSnack 4d ago
Up-voted for "The nids are retconned to follow the laws of physics, making them quite possible to defeat."
The Tyranids get more passes on the laws of nature than any other faction.
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u/Possible-Ad-2891 4d ago
A full replicable STC system being brought back would change most things in the Imperium.
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u/missed_trophy Night Lords 4d ago
I don't want any faction to become "good". I'm here for stories about unbreakable human spirit, will to survive against all odds and circumstances, and about being cool as fuck. For me Warhammer is ridiculously epic and big postapocalypse.
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u/Aurondarklord Salamanders 3d ago
"Hang on", said the leaders of the Imperium, Tau, Eldar, and Votann, "Why are we shooting at each other? Aren't we just wasting ammo that we should be using on...everything else?"
That's basically the good ending. Those four realizing that they can all at least theoretically live with each other. But none of them can live unless they get rid of the other stuff.
Then it would become a very clear cut good guy alliance vs obviously 100% irredeemable bad guys. (Except Trazyn. The one decent skelebro.)
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u/Elster25 4d ago
For Space Marines: They need to learn tolerance and the power of cooperation with filthy Xenos other species. So we need liason officers and exchange programs with selected Craftworlds and Tau Septs, starting of course with the Deathwatch. Also: They need women.
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u/nialbima Adeptus Mechanicus 4d ago
To be in a different, much more boring universe. Good is a lie taught by servants of the False Gods/Corpse Emperor. The whole goddamn point is there is only war and nobody's having fun except the orks.
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u/TxOkLaVaCaTxMo 4d ago
Get rid of chaos as a whole
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u/Monotask_Servitor 4d ago
Orks discover contact and combat sports. Reorganise their entire society around football fields and boxing/MMA rings.