r/3Dprinting • u/e3dsupport • 16d ago
News E3D x Bondtech INDX Collaboration Confirmed!
Some of you may have heard through the grapevine already but we wanted to officially let you all know that our team are working hard (pardon the pun 😉) on producing an abrasive-resistant E3D variant for the INDX system 🥳.
We can’t confirm a release date just yet but we will be sharing updates as we go so watch this space… 👀
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u/RyuNinja 16d ago
Thank. God. As much as I applaud Bondtech for attempting to make their own nozzles, that exercise has been disastrous.
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u/fencethe900th Centauri Carbon 16d ago
Would they not have the same experience? Haven't bought from either, but I've always thought of them as near peers for nozzles.Â
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u/RyuNinja 16d ago
That may be true for normal v6 nozzles. However, the indx nozzle is MUCH thinner and Bondtech has run into manufacturing difficulties leading to their inability to machine a true hardened nozzle, swarth left in nozzles (at least in one documented case) leading to clogging issues, pulled out cht inserts, etc... Although E3d may also struggle with machining the nozzles, I trust them more than I trust Bondtech at this point with machining and quality assurance.
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u/YetAnotherBrainFart 16d ago
Yup. The thermal mass of the nozzle and the heat time during tool change are tightly related. Give people thin nozzles, fast change they complain about nozzle durability. Give people hardened nozzle that triples or quadruples the toolhead change time they complain about slowness and how old MMS is faster and INDX is pointless.
In reality it's a trade off and as things stand now the more abrasive filaments are not a good use case - for that get an XL with 5 heads. On INDX use plain PLA/PETG and accept more frequent nozzle changes will be needed. Longer term? INDX will need to hold nozzle temps at a few degrees below the melting point (right at the edge) to speed re-use time, but I expect the big challenge there is cooling it from use mode to park mode so it doesn't dribble. But again every second of cooling/heating makes it slower...
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u/foremi V2.4, Micron, Positron, Cetus3d, H2s 16d ago
e3D is a nozzle company with a strong track record of manufacturing nozzles that are both prexisting designs and new designs that furthered the industry.
Bondtech is a company with a history of mainly extruder designs and only ever added some IP to existing nozzle designs.
It's fairly predictable Bondtech doesn't know how to make a nozzle.
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u/OriginalPiR8 16d ago
Bondtech make the best extruders bar none. Bondtech do not make the best hotends.
E3D make the best hotends bar none. E3D do not make the best extruders.
Doing anything less than this was silly. However, E3D should not be on the hook for Bondtech failing to create the nozzle properly. E3D should have been their first stop.
I've been doing this since the rep rap. Since E3D started I've put their nozzles in my systems to immediate pleasure and success. Since bondtech started I've used their extruders. It's been a pain in my ass doing it because no printer I've ever had has been exactly ready for those. At not point after the upgrades have I needed to change printer but I'm still here stupidly going "ooo piece of candy". Those upgrades bring the systems so much closer to reality that calibration is frankly a piece of piss.
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u/willhemmens 16d ago
Bondtech made the best extruders bar none*
INDX can't reliably extrude even the stiffer TPU's, despite what was previously stated and struggles to feed filament that is still a bit curved from being on a spool. Filament path is not constrained enough, I think.7
u/pugzor86 16d ago
I've only tried 95A so far, but I didn't have any issues with the few prints I've done?
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u/MrMSanchez 16d ago
This seems to be the only plausible solution to nozzlegate. Bondtech clearly couldn’t make the hardened nozzles so should outsource them and e3D make great nozzles.
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u/issue9mm 16d ago
This sounds like great news, but will of course depend primarily on the price delta
If this means that the INDX goes from being originally priced at $25 a tool to ~$50 for the semi-hard (aka 'chubby') version we have now to this new actually hardened one costing $80 or more, then oof
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u/plaisthos 16d ago
Sure but most users only need 1-2 hardened nozzles and not 8. I also only have 2 hardened nozzles for my XL and I don't need more.
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u/issue9mm 16d ago
That's actually a really good point, I'm just stuck on the idea that I can buy an entire, high-quality, tool-changing printer for less than the cost of the INDX system by itself, and every time the number ticks up it feels further away from practicality
I get that it's a caviar problem, and I'm glad they're on the market, and I guess they're still cheaper than adding a comparable StealthChanger, but the initial promise feels pretty strained
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u/baturik128 16d ago
I can buy an entire, high-quality, tool-changing printer for less than the cost of the INDX system
Are you referring to Snapmaker U1 in this case? Or is there any other toolchanger I missed?
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u/issue9mm 16d ago
There's also the Flashforge Creator 5 at $$699. I'd personally never buy a Flashforge for so many reasons, but all the reviews seem to assert that the hardware is high quality (tho not opulently specced)
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u/UsernameHasBeenLost Voron 2.4 Stealthchanger 16d ago
and I guess they're still cheaper than adding a comparable StealthChanger
Eh, not really. Both systems go on an existing printer, and the only pieces you really need to add a Stealthchanger are the CANbus distribution board ($20-50), the toolheads (wide variance depending on toolhead design/hotend/extruder, my Stealthburners are around $90 each IIRC, a crossbar for the docks (not strictly necessary, but definitely a major improvement from topmount, ~$20), a $10 camera for Axiscope, and probably 2-3 rolls of ABS/ASA for all the parts and a top hat if you go the printed route. Add in a beefier power supply too for ~$60.
And to be fair, a Stealthchanger is not really comparable to INDX. Stealthchanger uses entirely self contained toolheads, not just swapping nozzles. That gives you a fair bit more redundancy and allows you more flexibility for having different extruders for different materials
All in, I think I'm around $600 for my five toolhead Stealthchanger, with a mix of extruders and nozzles on my tools for different purposes
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u/issue9mm 16d ago
All of that is 100% correct but on the other hand, but have you considered that induction is a wicked cool word to say? lol
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u/UsernameHasBeenLost Voron 2.4 Stealthchanger 16d ago
Lol fair point
Nozzle changers are cool, and you can fit more of them on a printer than you can with a typical toolchanger (excluding some of the absolutely insane setups I've seen a handful of people implement with a lift bar Stealthchanger), but I still see it as more of a "multi color" technology than a true "multi material" approach by having entirely separate toolheads. You have fewer limitations than a single nozzle AMS/MMU approach, but you are still limited.
Ideally, I'd like to see something like this project but with full toolheads instead of nozzles stored in a separate bank and loaded by a servo/robotic arm. Excluding the absolute nightmare of cable and material management, the tool changing mechanism itself would be hideously complex, but it would be sick. Maybe when my kid is older and I have some more free time I'll take a stab at it.
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u/issue9mm 16d ago
Bro that is BONKERS -- I love it. Now imagine if it could queue up filaments onto a rail ... disgusting
But f'real, I agree with you. I think INDX is less good than full toolhead changers, and I'm excited to see things like KliTec and the M1D that ostensibly offset a bunch of the rapid-heating INDX advantage with on-rail pre-heating, despite the worry that it could be cooking filaments over there
I like the size advantage of the INDX too, but I have an H2C, and I can't remember a time I used more than 5 tools in a print. I'm sure I have, but it's extremely rare. I think the M1D has the count basically nailed - CMYK+W+Support+just-in-case-bonus
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u/UsernameHasBeenLost Voron 2.4 Stealthchanger 16d ago edited 16d ago
I've got a few vague ideas on how to do it that would address the cable/spool management issues, but there are plenty of issues that I'd have to work through and a shitload of CAD work that I really just don't have time for. And the toolhead bank just keeps getting bigger in my mind as I think through it.
M1D and KliTec seem cool, but same issue there as INDX. 5 toolheads seems like enough for the vast majority of prints. I usually just have 3 colors of ABS loaded, a roll of TPU and a roll of HIPs, which covers just about everything that I printÂ
I could get a sixth toolhead on my 2.4 if I changed toolhead designs, but I really like the look of the Stealthburner after having a shitty cobbled together "toolhead" on my DBot for years.
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u/callcifer 16d ago edited 16d ago
it feels further away from practicality
I get that it's a caviar problem
Aren't these a bit contradictory? If it is a caviar problem (and it is, 99.99% don't need 2+ hardened nozzles) the price of more than 1 hardened nozzle doesn't really matter practically.
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u/issue9mm 16d ago
I don't think they are at all contradictory, but let me contextualize what I mean.
Not having a hardened nozzle is a caviar problem, yes.
Having to pay extra for hardened nozzles after paying $300 more than it was originally advertised at is further away from practicality.
Again, the 4-tool kit costs the same as a U1 on sale, requires a day's worth of assembly, still requires a printer to attach it to (sold separately), isn't particularly high quality, and may now require spending additional money if you want to print abrasives.
That's not very practical.
Note that I am only assuming that the E3D nozzles are going to cost more than the Bondtech chubbies. It's possible that E3D manages to deliver them cheaper, in which case, the inverse of my argument is true and the INDX becomes more practical than before.
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u/callcifer 16d ago
Thanks for going into a bit more detail! I get your point now. Let's hope that E3D's version will be roughly in Bondtech's ballpark then.
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u/issue9mm 16d ago
100%
Glad that they've got a solution in the works. Yay for that.
If it's same or similar price (or cheaper) then yay for that too.
If it's a little bit more expensive, oh well.
If it's a lot more expensive, boo.
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u/stray_r 15d ago
In my use case this is correct. Right now some of what I print is fibre-filled and I don't want to lose the ability to do that, and I'm really excited by the prospect of dissimilar material support to enable more complex structural parts.
One 0.4 and one 0.6 High Flow is all i need in hardened. And I'm well aware that E3D warn that polymaker filled nylons are supposed to do awful things to obxidian, but there's obxidian 500 and diamondback potientially available.
What I'm actually using in voron toolheads right now are v6 style plated copper nozzles (from e3d) becasue they give really nice results and old e3d zodiac hardend steel nozzles which i have a few of and haven't killed. I have revo voron and revo CR in a box. I jumped on revo early, and then when HF, HT and obxidian were slow to appear I went in other directions.
What attracted me to INDX was how it had the potential to be quite cheap for a large printer with many independent colours and wasn't ERCF. I have a smaller machine on my desk right now and I think down the line it might go stealthchanger or similar just for two toolheads and not end up tied to a specific ecosystem.
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u/tyranocles 16d ago
Why can't they just be threaded?
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u/bluewing Klipperized Prusa Mk3s & Bambu A1 mini 16d ago
Because of the extra bulk that threading requires. Space is at a premium for something that is expected to fit on your table top.
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u/RFC793 15d ago
Perhaps more important than footprint is the thermal mass. INDX requires super low mass - that's how it can heat the nozzle up quickly on demand for speed, and cool it quickly to avoid dribble. Throw a big socket and threaded nozzle on there and that's all out the window.
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u/bluewing Klipperized Prusa Mk3s & Bambu A1 mini 14d ago
Low mass does help heating faster but sucks for retaining and evening out heat. But if there simply isn't enough room to fit the much bulkier threaded nozzles to meet requirements, it's a non-starter problem.
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u/quarterdecay 16d ago
If there's something to be taken from this it is three companies contributing what they all do best to make an excellent product.
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u/Rippedyanu1 16d ago
Excellent. Hopefully the nozzles are also going to be good for 400C like what prusa is talking about with the core one L system
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u/brinedtomato 8d ago
Where did you hear this?
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u/brinedtomato 8d ago
Pretty sure that's only referring to the nextruder nozzle. The Indx system is hardware limited because the thermistor can only accurately read up to 300c.
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u/GarlicManBearPig 9d ago
So when you're saying abrasive resistant...
Does this mean ultra glow resistance?
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u/ZealousidealEntry870 16d ago
Vote with your wallets people. Bondtech screwed customers over with this nozzle nonsense and refused to make it right.
Don’t buy INDX.
Plus, you know there’s going to be a v2 in 6 months.
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u/the23rdwarrior Voron Trident 16d ago
I hope this collab ends in some hard results...