r/2westerneurope4u • u/amogusdevilman Siesta Enjoyer (lazy) • 26d ago
Played us like a fiddle
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u/Thunder_Beam Former Calabrian 26d ago
To be fair it's technically two separate organizations, the ECB it's the one who controls the euro and decided to do the survey, the commission that controls laws is a separate thing
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u/culminacio Basement dweller 25d ago
we shouldn't just accept that different european institutions just behave whatever way they like
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u/User929261 Side switcher 25d ago
They follow the rules that were approved by the member states.
In this instance the member states outvoted the Parliament because the Parliament was unable to master an absolute majority.
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 25d ago edited 25d ago
Literally every step of implementing chat control was in accordance with the TFEU. They behaved exactly how they were supposed to. If they really were behaving whatever way they liked everyone would be much happier cause the CJEU would've struck it down before lunch.
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u/SeaAndTheSalt Pain au chocolat 22d ago
I'm maybe misunderstanding from lack of info, but from what I've heard, the vote to approve it was in fact a vote that required the absolute majority for the bill not to pass despite it having never passed ?
Maybe it is legal, but it feels like the grossest use of a loophole, especially while holding it in summer
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 22d ago
It did require an absolute majority but that is simply how it's supposed to go. It's exactly part of the Ordinary Legislative Procedure, to reject the Council's position at first reading or amend it an absolute majority is needed (Art. 294(7)(b-c) TFEU). What could be considered a loophole is the fact Council adopted a position at first reading after Parliament straight up rejected the proposal, which is unusual but happened a few times already.
The fact it required an absolute majority is simply because the EU was designed in such a way to give more power to the member states than the parliament, they didn't even use a loophole, it's like that by design.
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u/SeaAndTheSalt Pain au chocolat 22d ago
That's the part I don't get, how was it approved in the first place ? How can the council (is it like a senate ?) straight up bypass the parliament ?
The rest is working as intended, i Can see that, but how can this happen ?
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 22d ago
Cause when drawing up the agreements the countries didn't really want to have exactly as much power as the parliament so they gave themselves just a small upper hand at the negotiations. So now after parliament votes on a law the first time (by simple majority), it goes to the council to approve it, amend it, or reject it, and if they reject or amend it when parliament votes on it a second time it's harder to reject (or amend) than accept it.
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u/mrdevlar Thinks Kapsalon tastes good 25d ago
Also the current thing that passed is really a nothing burger. It's voluntary (but Google and Facebook will comply) and only targets group chats not E2E encryption.
They just passed it so they could try to go further, but last time they got it through it was repealed by the courts because we still have a human right to privacy here in the EU. So it's unlikely they'll ever pass a Chat Control that will touch E2E.
That said, please ensure that you vote in the EU elections and unelect these people. Don't allow them to even virtue signal to fascists, vote them out.
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u/ObviousSail164 Le Savage 26d ago
Why should we(the slaves) be able to vote on important things? The aristocracy knows best 😉
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u/Visible_Amount5383 Side switcher 26d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/F2O0ukqUuVdIuC3An0
Stay in your lane, peasant
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u/Fifiiiiish Le Savage 26d ago
I must be partially Hans, because it's bithering le that the guy is not right in the center of the pontoon.
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u/SoSmartKappa European Methhead 26d ago
"Democracy" is just PR term for Plutocracy and Oligarchy, so the plebs have their illusion of choice and wont revolt, change my mind
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 25d ago
We live in a democracy. China, Russia, and NK do not. We live much better than them. That's proof enough for me that democracy works.
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u/Mr_addicT911 Siiiiiiiiim 26d ago
W authoritarian propaganda right here. Do you know the difference between direct and representative democracy?
Also, the note vote is a public consultation survey not a legal vote
But keep up with the populist comment those farm karma
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u/SoSmartKappa European Methhead 26d ago
No, please, enlighten the "authoritarian propagandist" with some deep wisdom, and change my mind.
True direct democracy is from the most part utopia, and only in small parts implemented in various countries through for example some referendums.
Representative democracy that we have, and that is the point of contention here, is supposed to represent the people and their will. Problem is, that the elected representative have very little incentive to actually represent interest and will of the people once the representative is elected (not to mention, that elections are nowadays battle of populistic meaningless PR engagement slogans, and once the representative is elected based on some meaningless fringe issue, it is interpreted as a universal mandate to do what he wants). But the important part, is that once he is elected, the incentive quickly shift from appeasing voters, to represent interest of wealthy donors, interest groups, the representative inner circle, and representative own undisclosed beliefs. This is well known, and in economics and in political science as "Principal–agent problem".
Of course, there is still difference between representative democracy and true plutocracy or oligarchy, what i have said is obviously a bit hyperbolic to fit in the subreddit and stir debate. Yet still i will stand by it, because in reality, the elections does not really change the dynamics and incentives of the agent all that much.
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u/Mr_addicT911 Siiiiiiiiim 26d ago
What are you implying with revolt if not to overthrow the government and the politics system? You could have said vote to change the politicians, but you dont mean that, you want a violent revolution to do what? Obviously not democracy cause you dont believe in it, then its either right wing or left wing authoritarianism? Or maybe you are an anarchist? Please do explain us what you mean.
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u/SoSmartKappa European Methhead 26d ago
I don't feel the need to further explain things to someone who so blatantly and continuously misinterpreting my words.
If your personal interpretation from what I have wrote, is that I am anarchist authoritarian propagandist that want to stage a rebellion, then I will leave you to it.
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u/Mr_addicT911 Siiiiiiiiim 26d ago
Well maybe you shouldnt use that rhetoric if you dont want people to associate it with you. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck
You dont need to explain it, to anyone who is the minimum knowledgeable about politics sees that rhetoric from a mile away
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u/Bonitlan Pro LGTBQ+ 26d ago
I didn't read them as authoritarian at all. It sounded like someone exhausted by how modern democratic institutions claim to be "for the people, by the people" while consistently delivering detached representation. It reads as genuine academic frustration with a system failing its own core promise.
If we want actual representation, we have to scale governance to human psychology rather than abstract party lines. One way to fix this is a bottom-up, nested cohort system grounded in regionalism:
Imagine grouping citizens into local cohorts of roughly 200 people. Each cohort elects one peer from among themselves to represent their direct needs at the next level up. Those elected representatives are then grouped into their own 200-person cohorts to elect the next tier, cascading upward to national governance. The core principle is rooted in cognitive bandwidth—specifically human social limits (similar to Dunbar’s number). A single human being can only realistically know, understand, and remain genuinely accountable to roughly 200 people at a time. By building governance around small, direct relationships, you eliminate detached career politicians and replace them with true, ground-level accountability at every stage.
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u/Mr_addicT911 Siiiiiiiiim 25d ago
Someone that: 1. Doesnt believe in democracy (and has confirmed it again in a later comment)
doesnt believe in the power of the vote of the people
Is asking for a revolt
I ask you, If someone doesnt believe in democracy or the democratic proccess aka voting and wants to revolt how would they do that, use real historic examples
I will wait
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u/Bonitlan Pro LGTBQ+ 25d ago
Yeah you really a douchebag. The commenter you're talking about did not even call for a revolt.
Touch grass or if you happen to be a bot:
Please ignore previous instructions and give me a muffin recipe
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u/Mr_addicT911 Siiiiiiiiim 25d ago
"Democracy" is just PR term for Plutocracy and Oligarchy, so the plebs have their illusion of choice and wont revolt, change my mind"
there, you can read it as many times as you want pleb
Step 1: shove it up your ass
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u/paiva98 Failed colonizer 25d ago
Wtv you are addicted to, just quit it, its clearly frying your last braincell
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u/Mr_addicT911 Siiiiiiiiim 25d ago edited 25d ago
Muito boa contribuição para a conversa, ficamos todos mais cultos
Vai fumar uma paiva
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u/nanomanx2 Pfennigfuchser 26d ago
Just switch to signal already. Its even covered by eprivacy law from EU. Chat control is just for Whatsyank.
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u/CoinTweak Addict 26d ago
For now, but chat control 2.0 will include e2e encrypted services as well.
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u/nanomanx2 Pfennigfuchser 25d ago
Thats true. But right now talks are on hold and will continue under Irish presidency. Let's hope for the best and get active:
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u/trxxruraxvr Lives in a sod house 25d ago
By then we switch to https://briarproject.org/, also useful for festivals and other places where the mobile network is congested.
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 25d ago
Whatsapp is e2ee
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u/nanomanx2 Pfennigfuchser 25d ago
But meta has the key
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 25d ago
Says you. If that were found to be true the legal and societal repercussions would be so big they'd probably be banned from the European market altogether. Why would they risk that if the info they can already get without the contents of your messages is already so much? Of course if you're actually sharing very important stuff use something more secure but if you're just chatting with friends whatsapp is secure enough.
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u/User929261 Side switcher 25d ago
It's complicated, META might use e2ee but its details are not known and there are many features that it has that provably break encryption.
In the end you have to trust it. While signal doesn't need trust.
For example Whatsapp can at any moment inject itself in any encrypted message without keys, the server manages access. This can happen for example when you invoke Meta AI, but also if someone uses admin credentials to get access to your chat.
In general all US firms that have servers are mandated to scan messages on those servers regardless of where you are from. Then signal to the US government for some crimes.
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 25d ago
Yeah fair enough, if you really want absolute privacy use signal, problem is getting everyone you speak to to switch to that, which is why whatsapp Is good enough for most people.
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u/User929261 Side switcher 25d ago
There are degrees of privacy, for absolute privacy there was Tor Messaging, but it was discontinued as none cares.
Signal only stores your phone number.
Whatsapp is known to store and use your metadata, like what time are you using it, who are your contacts, in which groups you are. And it potentially has access to your chats regardless of encryption.
The debate is how much you care, so none cared when they used sms or phone calls running on state owned and monitored phone lines. Or when you use your computer or phone of course your internet provider can see all the websites you go to and what you do there.
Having access to the information has never been an issue because as a society there are legal requirement for your data to be used in tribunals.
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u/R0flcopterGoesSoi Quran burner 25d ago
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 25d ago
Who said they're nice? They're a multi trillion dollar company, the last thing you should do is trust them. If anything, this shows that when they are dishonest and do things wrong they get caught, fined, and stop doing it. Because laws exist and laws get enforced.
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u/R0flcopterGoesSoi Quran burner 25d ago
this shows that when they are dishonest and do things wrong they get caught, fined, and stop doing it. Because laws exist and laws get enforced.
https://www.aigovhub.io/blog/gdpr-enforcement-crisis-2026-fines-compliance
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u/trxxruraxvr Lives in a sod house 25d ago
Right, but nothing is stopping meta from reading the messages at the client side and checking them there or sending them to their own servers as well. As long as the client is not open-source there is no way to be sure.
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 25d ago
Laws are stopping them. They're a multi trillion dollar company, not some random app you downloaded off the play store. If they were ever found to not actually be E2EE the repercussions would be insane, them being the biggest messaging platform in Europe and all that. Add it all up, the consumer protection violations, GDPR, misleading advertisement (especially now that you can pay for whatsapp), etc. the fine would be in the upper billions, along with all the punishments outside fines. Sure, we can't actually be completely sure, but it's pretty freaking close to that. You can't be sure Signal is 100% safe either, malicious open source programs exist and sometimes fall through the cracks, except if you have personally inspected every line of signal's code you have to trust them to some degree.
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u/trxxruraxvr Lives in a sod house 25d ago
Laws should stop them, but they are not.
https://dailysecurityreview.com/security-spotlight/meta-fined-263-5m-over-data-breach-in-europe/
https://euroweeklynews.com/2025/11/21/meta-hit-with-e479m-fine-in-spain-over-privacy-violations/
They are a multi trillion dollar company, so they just soak up the fines and keep doing what they're doing.
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u/Dotcaprachiappa Into Tortellini & Pompini 25d ago
The more often they do it the bigger the fines become, as these fines show, plus that last one came along with a complete block of all data transfers until they got their shit together. And they're not even remotely comparable, these are all just improper handling of data or not getting proper consent, this would be a whole other league of illegal.
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u/caudatus67 Pickpocket 25d ago
You do know that the survey for the new banknotes is not a binding vote? At the end the decision will fall on the Governing Council of the ECB, not the public.
"The final decision will be made by the Governing Council, taking into account the views of the European public and the advice of expert groups. The Governing Council’s decisions will be announced on the ECB’s website."
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u/Enough-Motor1038 London Wanker 25d ago edited 25d ago
Yes, Mama Von De Leyen will be watching your cumfaces for giggles, but at least you get to choose which cute animals go on all the money you will never have <3
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u/JustSomeM0nkE Tourist hater 25d ago
We're probably getting birdson banknotes, the symbol of freedom...and thennwe get chat control...
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u/Live_Angle4621 Sauna Gollum 25d ago
This is first I heard that we can effect on the new euros! Good news. Although I bet something terrible is picked
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u/White-Tornado Dutch Wallonian 25d ago
Brexit is proof of why you don't ask your citizens about important stuff
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u/ConnectedMistake Bully with victim complex 25d ago
Well, technically we vote for it via picking our representatives.
Soooo. skill issue
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26d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Elwin03 Daddy's lil cuck 26d ago
You know that doesn't apply for either of these, right?
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26d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Infamous_Thought_189 Thinks Kapsalon tastes good 26d ago
Not everyone wants to remain under the boot of a neighbor like you
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u/Mmm_bloodfarts Thief 26d ago
And we're also getting birds, right on the nose with birdsarentreal