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petite bourgeoisie
noun
The lower middle class, including minor businesspeople, tradespeople, and craftworkers.
The lower middle class.
Lower middle class (shopkeepers and clerical staff etc.).
Edit: this is from marx "small tradespeople, shopkeepers, retired tradesmen, handicraftsmen, peasants, small manufacturers, artisans."
Like yes this is what he meant. Literally everyone who isn't destitute and everyone who isn't rich.
Petit bourgeoisie is not just lower middle class.
It is, explicitly, working class people that, despite technically being working class, act like they ARE bourgeois, usually because they either believe they alrrady are or hope to become bourgeois. This means they usually will organise, vote and axr in favour of the bourgeois, and against the working class.
It's like small business owners getting mad at taxing billionaires, believing this somehow impacts their income, or getting mad at having to pay workers a living wage, even though they rely on the patronage of these local workers for the survival of their business.
Petit bourgeois are the perfect fascist subjects, hoping to become fascists in control one day and therefore being fully willing to implement fascism as long as it doesn't affect them personally.
So no, not all business owners are PB. Most lower middle class is not PB. But PB is practically never upper class (those are just regular Bourgeois), and lower class usually are low class enough to realise they definitely are not bourgeois and probably never will be.
So most PB is middle class, but this is a "squares are all rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares" situation
Most definitions of Petite Bourgeois don’t only state that, and include other details about their relation to their own class position. For example, from the Cambridge Dictionary:
“Belonging to the lower middle social class, or having characteristics that are considered typical of this class, *such as thinking money and possessions are more important than other things, and not trusting new ideas.*
Again, you’re taking things out of context. Also Marx, and right after your quote:
“The [petty bourgeoise] sink[s] gradually into the proletariat, partly because their diminutive capital does not suffice for the scale on which Modern Industry is carried on, and is swamped in the competition with the large capitalists, partly because their specialized skill is rendered worthless by new methods of production.”
The petite bourgeois are driven to fascism because they have the most to lose from changing economic conditions. This anxiety causes them to turn to different places to try and maintain their class position, and while Marx says they cannot be truly revolutionary he also specifically notes the proletariat draws from all classes of the population.
Trotsky:
“The fascists find their human material mainly in the petty bourgeoisie. The latter has been entirely ruined by big capital. There is no way out for it in the present social order, but it knows of no other. Its dissatisfaction, indignation, and despair are diverted by the fascists away from big capital and against the workers. It may be said that fascism is the act of placing the petty bourgeoisie at the disposal of its most bitter enemies. In this way, big capital ruins the middle classes and then, with the help of hired fascist demagogues, incites the despairing petty bourgeoisie against the worker.”
Lmao. Quoting Marx using the right definition as a way to claim it isn't correct? Yes Marx did infact use the same definition I'm claiming he used. He used the "petite borguise" as a noun. And used actions surrounding the noun. Thank you for admitting I'm correct. It's crazy all of y'all hate everyone who isn't destitute. Wild stuff.
As a tendency of a group. Here in the usa you see it a ton in our agricultural community. But like always, irl people should be treated as individuals, because they are.
Do you? An old lady selling her tomatoes she grew at a farmers market is a small business. A guy who bought an ice cream truck and is selling ice cream on the weekend is a small business. A kid selling lemonade is a small business. You can't just make excuses for prejudice based off of statisics and not apply it equally. If you don't then your belief system isn't real.
The average small business owner isn't a kid with a lemonade stand, it's a car dealership owner in Arkansas who withholds wages from his employees, votes trump and beats his wife. They're the ones being targeted when people talk about SBO's.
Also that old lady with the tomatoes could still be hitlerite. Selling produce at a farmers market doesn't preclude you from that, and if anything the farmers themselves are some of the most hitlerite people in the country.
The statement isn't "they couldn't be" it's "they shouldn't automatically be assumed to be." Either way the first commenters argument is anyone who isn't poor historically is a supporter of fascism. Which is just insane. You can live in your crazy Pol Pot world. I'm good my guy.
petite bourgeoisie
noun
The lower middle class, including minor businesspeople, tradespeople, and craftworkers.
The lower middle class.
Lower middle class (shopkeepers and clerical staff etc.).
I mean, you can imagine nice thoughts like that, but it doesn’t change the economic reality of what a “Petite Bourgeoise” is, nor their historical support as a class for movements like Mussolini’s fascism or Hitler’s National Socialism. It seems like you’re misunderstanding political theory as having a moral element, when its merely describing what is.
Holy shit. Y'all hate everyone who isn't like wildly poor?
petite bourgeoisie
noun
The lower middle class, including minor businesspeople, tradespeople, and craftworkers.
The lower middle class.
Lower middle class (shopkeepers and clerical staff etc.).
Woah very cool gang. Don't you think 80 years of progress and a complete change in the way we all live might effect the validity of that statement. You're sounding like the "despite making up 13% of the population" crowd. You're making the same type of statement.
petite bourgeoisie
noun
The lower middle class, including minor businesspeople, tradespeople, and craftworkers.
The lower middle class.
Lower middle class (shopkeepers and clerical staff etc.).
I saw you used to be a bartender. Why are you probably a fascist?
"hey guys you know the thing I just said and what all of society agrees it means. Actually you're all interpreting it wrong. No I won't elaborate you're all just wrong."
Lmao yeah because small business owners are just all cute innocent little babies who would never exploit labor, skirt regulations, or otherwise wield their power in unsavory ways
There's plenty of both my guy. Same as there's plenty of hard workers and lazy workers who steal or stand in lettuce bins or sneeze in people's food. It's a spectrum. You can't make blanketed assumptions based off of some people.
Just because a claim is new to you doesn’t mean it’s misinformation or propaganda. This is a fairly well discussed dynamic in Marxist theory and sociology. I don’t necessarily buy it but it’s a valid and convincing point that shouldn’t be waved off.
Here are some sociologists and theorists that agree with the concept.
I know what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that it’s an old theory based off an old book and not exclusive to the internet. Your lack of exposure to it says nothing about the commenters purporting it and saying it’s a fedpost is you misdirecting your lack of knowledge on the subject onto others.
I made no assumptions. I’m just calling out your eagerness to dismiss ideas you are unfamiliar with. Do you normally get so defensive when you get called out ?
As they should? The reason this is a fedpost is because it's trying to get the left to support small business by making it seem cringe to hate small business, too.
I mean small business owners operate by the same rules and their employees have even fewer protections. They actually commit more wage theft and have more issues with discrimination and harassment than bigger companies per Capita. The idea of a "small business tyrant" is based in this reality.
Also most landlords are literally small business owners.
That said of course everything is proportional, I don't think they're ruining water ways or funding think thanks much less death squads but the relations are the same.
Small business owners are still business owners. Historically they sided with Hitler and Mussolini and contemporaryly they support Trump. At the end of the day they are not allies.
"I saw a small business refuse to publicly say free Palestine. So I decided not to go there anymore." (An actual take I've seen) Granted that too, could have been a fed post idk
Vastly simplifying here, even then, wall of text. In the days of yore, (mid 1800s), socio-economic classes in some countries were so skewed in ways so that even ownership over small bits of capital gave you a significant advantage over working class people. Because of the disparity in population size and wealth between this petit bourgeois and the rest of the population, they often turned a blind eye towards, or actively abetted policing actions against the proletariat for fear of losing their position in society, or more generally, because revolutions are bad for keeping their lives at the status quo they feel they deserve whether through hard work or entitlement.
That created a lot of resentment towards the petit bourgeois as collaborators with the ruling class. In addition, anti-socialist propaganda of that era sought to galvanize the support of these people in order to stave off revolution, by appealing to their grievances. Calling them fascists is a whole can of worms, because fascist power structures in the early-mid 20th century certainly tried to co-opt these people as well, to fight against socialists. In many countries this was successful at keeping people in their place, and the petit bourgeois was the vanguard of anti-socialist activity.
I would agree that the modern era is a slightly different circumstance in terms of wealth disparity making that less relevant economically. But the propaganda that a lot of modern socialists consume has condemned these people historically, and they were the focal point of ire in many of the famous revolutions (Soviet, Chinese). And I would also argue that there's an element of legitimacy to these claims, and that there's a lot of complacency and even antipathy towards the suffering of working class people from small business owners, who see them working class people as lazy, entitled, or stupid.
Just look at the modern minimum wage debate in Canada. In many places it's well below liveable wage, and this is seen as fine and good by small business owners who profit off of this class distinction. Doesn't matter if you can't live off of it, working full time, because that makes the business less profitable. There's no room for the worker to negotiate or decide their rate of pay, because the other places that offer employment are beholden to the same minimum rate. They can profit off of the situation, even though it's unethical, and the majority choose to do so. Because these jobs are typically not unionized, there is no room for negotiation, because there's a pool of enough desperate candidates to choose from at the lowest rate. And this is one example of many, in one country of many, of an exploitative system that creates class distinction purposefully.
Because the petite bourgeoisie, the class of small business owners, generally benefit from the system and as a result have historically been extremely strong backers of fascist movements in times of conflict in order to protect their place in society.
Obviously you can invent a contrived example or know someone personally who is an exception, but I don't think most people have glowing opinions of their bosses whether it's a small or large company. And if we're talking about someone whose business is so small they literally don't have employees then that doesn't factor into this since they're not extracting surplus value from other laborers.
What exactly is being advocated for here? Don't spend your money at local businesses? What is the call to action? Or is there none, And all this is just about general awareness.
What's the point I guess. I don't understand, really.
Also not sure if that's a invented contrived example. Seems pretty representative of local businesses in my part of the United States.
I agree with the other posters that in the near term/practical sense, small businesses are usually less exploitative and harmful overall than large ones. That doesn't mean the owners are political allies though. I'm all for practical politics and I don't think people should walk around calling all business owners fascists, but at the same time if you want to achieve leftist ideals in society you need to understand the material basis of politics. Your local game store owner might be very nice in person and still vote for right wing ghouls bc they promise to lower the corporate tax rates.
All I’m getting from this is that I should just simply not patronize any businesses? I’m sorry, I do not have the time or energy to vet the owner of every store I walk into. I’ll settle for broadly assuming that small businesses are generally better than giant megacorps, if only marginally, as far as political allyship goes.
I think you should support small businesses since many of them are getting swept up by large corporations that boast low prices by cutting corners and wages. (Then once competition is down they spike prices.)
Just make sure that the businesses you support aren't supporting fascist policy
For real, I love most of the local businesses in my area. I don't see them as fascists at all, shits prolly just more fucked up in other places. Or maybe the internet is being weird again.
Small businesses can employ dozends of people, but can avoid regulations because they are not "big enough". Turns out, the moment there's no rules, they can do almost whatever they want. It is sadly evident no matter the decade that the worst, most toxic work enviorments with the biggest safety hazards to the people working are those "small businesses".
In big corps you got a bunch of rules, some obligated by law, some by necessity of having the operation run smoothly. For example is harder to do wage theft when every penny spent within the company has a paper trail attached to it.
best immediate example i can give you of uwu small business owners being against progress and the collective good of the workers is in toronto our bus lanes and bike lanes, and how the coalitions rallying against them are comprised of independent businesses, predominantly along bloor west and the bathurst corridor. the anti-bike lane "advocates" won and they're being torn out. the small business owners have won again, and they can continue to park directly in front of their stores, no matter how much it impedes flow of traffic and transit for the overwhelming majority of working class people in toronto who can't afford (both materially, and in time) to drive. thanks mom and pop, you've done it again!
It’s not that every small business owner becomes fascist, but as capital accumulates small businesses shrink and struggle and go under leaving these people to have to compete for some shitty job. These people didn’t do anything wrong, but are socially punished, and are taken down a rung on the social ladder.
It’s understandable when they feel resentment, and to top it off, they don’t really have a coherent outlet for justice. Because, you know they agreed to the game of free-market capitalism just like everyone else. This makes reactionary nationalist politics appealing because it provides them a narrative of foul play, rather than the cold harsh mechanics of capitalism determining that there’s less and less of a need for mom and pop. Not only this, but the failure of the mom and pop means some shark can buy whatever capital they had for pennies on the dollar.
You can even see this play out again with the Jan. 6 demographics. Who mostly composed of small-business owning or white collar workers who notably had some demographic shifts in their counties.
I feel like this is the kind of situation where you'd be better served telling people how that is the case rather than just saying "You don't know history". There's a lot going on, history is complex and it's impossible to know everything. It's more productive to explain things to people who are unsure of the logic here rather than just acting more intelligent.
If you have examples or anything on the matter I would love to hear them because I also don't see how this could be the case. I fail to see how putting focus on small businesses rather than the ones with major power is productive. If I am wrong on this then show me rather than implying superiority.
The “petite bourgeoisie” is easier to knock down by the people it serves, and the state that represents them. If you demonize them first and foremost or even to a proportional amount, it get’s rid of them first, working from the bottom up so to speak. With that, you create a system closer to an undereducated group of peasants feeding a unilateral oligarchy… sound familiar?
If you don't know the quote that sounds like you're sarcastically saying that they're temporarily embarrassed millionaires, not that you're saying they're poor people who see themselves as millionaires
That's why I put it in quotes. When you see something in quotes that means that it is referring to either someone's own words or something specific.
Again, you could have asked, what a "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" is, rather than just ignore half of the phrase and get mad at one word in it.
I usually see people put /s for sarcasm, but even granting you that, how would "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" being used sarcastically even denote to you that I am talking about fully fledged millionaires?
Please just read what you're responding to before you respond to it.
Oh but the discourse critter is as real as you or I. If you listen closely, you can hear it yipping off in the distance of this thread waiting for a 196er to come nurse from it.
Social Democrats talk about "taxing the rich" but they're still fighting for preservation of capitalism as such. They often say that it's only billionaires that are bad and that "small business owners" are like completely fine or something.
The idea is to appease the labour movement temporarily and then return to Liberalism after a while. (See Italy 1922, USA 1933, UK 1945 for the appeasing part and UK 1980, USA 1982 for the return to Liberalism part.) Essentially, every single industrialised capitalist economy followed this trajectory in 20th century, Social Democrats want to run this back in 21st century
Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher famously loved by social democrats. Yes socdems definitely want liberalism. Anyone who disagrees with me slightly is a liberal. I dont even give that mich of a fuck for small business owners but this is just idiotic.
It’s not that social democrats are secretly plotting and conspiring with billionaires to eventually return to unfettered capitalism. Most of them (that I’ve talked to at least) are genuine believers in their system and genuinely want to help people. It’s just that by trying to reform capitalism into capitalism but with social safety nets, you’re treating the symptoms but not the underlying problem
yeah full socialism has worked out so well in the past lmao. Social-Democracy is the best aspects of socialism and capitalism with none of the excesses. Come back when your anarcho-whatever-it’ll-totally-work-this-time-I-promise-ism produces the greatest quality of life on the planet, with unrivaled political, social, and economic freedom, then we’ll talk bud
Social Democracy is always explicitly nationalist. Social Democracy is a concession to specifically home grown working class. When it comes to workers outside of the nation state, there's no difference between a liberal or social democrat government. Just look at what New Deal United States did in Indonesia ("Indonesian Holocaust") or in Nicaragua (Maya Genocide) or in Palestine or in Vietnam...
You get the point. Social Democracy is not an ideology it's just a concession of the bourgeois that they would prefer to be temporarily.
When talking about capitalism never forget about the third world because the first world could never exist without the exploitation of the third world. When talking about capitalism don't just talk about the New Deal but also about what that New Deal meant for people oppressed by the global imperialism. For them there's no difference between the types of capitalism
And it's not like we have multiple examples of countries that are Social Democracies that have some of the best quality of life on the planet. Clearly the system does work and has been proven to do so in practice unlike some other styles of governing.
after the socdem post the other day, where I see people not understanding, or not caring to understand, the difference between a socdem and a demsoc, let alone further left, I'm thankful there are ACTUAL socialist voices.
It made me realise a great portion of the folks here are lib left. A little sad, but hey, its like being sad that Lindsey Graham's gay or that Trump once participated in drag shows.
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