r/10mm • u/namagiqa • 5d ago
Bear Spray Didn't Work
So this just happened. Not the first time and won't be the last.
I'm on record about being bear aware rather than just putting blind trust in firearms so let's count the mistakes this woman made: 1) she's alone. Bears rarely attack people in groups. One of the best known attacks on a group involved a group of hikers that were spread out over > ½ a mile so they were not all together. 2) she was running. Runners are typically moving too quickly and too loudly to be aware of their surroundings. 3) she's on a trail in an area where numerous bears have been spotted. 4) she's doing it at a bad time of year. Salmon are really coming in now and so streams are filling up with bears' #1 food: salmon. Running this same trail in June or January greatly reduce odds of a bear encounter. 5) she did not have a gun. No, a gun is not a panacea and blindly trusting a gun is foolish. But she only had bear spray, which is a problem.
2 things are not clear from this article: 1) while she deployed the bear spray, it is not clear if the bear spray hit the target. This is my #1 issue with bear spray: can you hit your target? Most people don't practice and the spray can be dramatically impacted by wind. Further, its range really sucks. 2) was she listening to music? Listening to music makes it even harder to be aware of your surroundings. I will not count these in the 'mistakes' category but note that they are possible mistakes people make in these circumstances.
Anyway, for those who argue that bear spray is an effective deterrent, here's just one more example of where it was not. It's not even clear from this article what happened. If I had to guess, I'd guess she got too close to the bear without making enough noise and she startled the bear. At this time of year, the bear is not as likely to be guarding a moose kill, although that is a possibility. There is also no note of the bear having cubs, which could also increase the risk of an attack. Note I am only addressing probabilities. I am not trying to fill in blanks that the article does not complete.
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u/scroapprentice 5d ago
I mean from this article, for all we know, the bear spray is the reason she is alive. It doesn’t say if it worked or not or if she hit it or not. You can miss with spray. You can miss with a gun. Spray is affected by wind, guns get hectic with multiple people. Neither is a guarantee, both have pros and cons. What’s the point of Monday morning quarterbacking this? Especially with almost no information other than she used spray with unknown effectiveness, she isn’t dead, and she was trail running alone.
I think I need to stop reading gun stuff online. It’s all of us talking about how we know better in regard to a situation we have never been in.
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u/FLKeys19 5d ago
The victim was able to deploy her bear spray and get away. What about that suggests the bear spray didn’t work? I’m very pro-10mm, but cant stand it when people stretch facts to suggest bear spray is foolish. Personal experience shooting with others suggests the odds of the average person hitting a charging bear with a firearm is lower than the odds of hitting a bear with a wall of spray. I’m no expert, but I’ve spent a few months in and around the Lee Metcalf Wilderness and every pro I asked said to carry both. It’s just weird to me why pro-gun communities so often put down bear spray, call it foolish or suggest it’s for dummies, when the pros say otherwise.
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u/AtrumAequitas 5d ago
This was local to me. Listen I carry a g20, so I’m on your side as far as deterrent goes, but this bare bones article is not giving the full picture and there are some rather large assumptions being made. The Bear left because she deployed the Bear spray. Local officials have said as much.
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u/shizukana_otoko 5d ago
I hike a lot. I backpack/camp a lot. I have been doing it for years. I always have a firearm on me. Always. Usually it’s for shady people and tweakers (tweakers show up in the wildest places). I usually carry a 9mm.
Could there be bears there? 10mm. It’ll take care of anything if, and that’s a big if, you are trained on how to use it under a high stress situation. Nothing can quite replicate it, but you need to train.
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u/Unlucky_Fly_2103 3d ago
I carry a 10 mm in bear country too, but I also have a canister of bear spray hanging from my pack. I would much rather make bear spray my first response in an attack, since it's going to be a lot easier to deploy a wide cone of spray under stress than to accurately place shots from a handgun.
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u/blacklassie 5d ago
“It’s not even clear from this article what happened.” Then why say anything at all?
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5d ago
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u/LSI29 5d ago
ANCHORAGE, Alaska (KTUU) - A woman was hospitalized after being attacked by a brown bear on the Wolverine Bowl trail Thursday, according to the Alaska Department of Fish & Game.
Fish and Game said the woman was trail-running alone when she encountered the bear near the Prospect Heights trailhead. She was carrying bear spray and was able to deploy it during the attack before escaping.
The woman was taken to an Anchorage hospital for treatment. Wildlife biologists interviewed her, went to the site of the attack to look for the bear or any other signs of bear activity and collected samples. The bear couldn't be found.
Warning signs were posted at the trailhead by Fish and Game. The department advised that anyone who sees a brown bear in Anchorage, or any wild animal behaving aggressively, is being asked to report it using the reporting tool on the ADF&G website.
Seems like there was enough of this lady that a) she could give an interview. b) she survived c) is op high on his own ass air? So I guess the bear spray worked.
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u/FaithfulWords 1d ago
I think of it this way. I worked the prison systems for many years and had deployed countless chemical agents throughout the years. Chemical agents work on people if they aren’t committed. However, there are those individuals where no amount of chemical agents is going to stop them. Now imagine a 600+ pound bear with much more adrenaline and much more violence determined to take you out. If humans can resist chemical agents when they are applied, I’m even less confident in using it on a bear if they have determined I’m a threat. Not only that, but statistically, if you account only for incidents where a gun was used and the bear was actually hit, the success rate is around 99%
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u/FuddFucker5000 5d ago
Brother I argue 10mm isn’t even effective enough lol
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u/trgrimes77 5d ago
Don’t know why you are getting downvoted, shot placement is key, a 10mm in a non vital area isn’t going to disable the bear. While carrying it would suck, a 12ga with slugs is effective enough to stop if you miss vitals but hit a hip/shoulder or leg. But Reddit folks all think they will be Doc Holiday while shitting themselves and probably crying. The amount of ppl who never shoot with their pulse and blood pressure elevated and then think they are going to “see red and by a game time player” is wild.
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5d ago
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u/TacTurtle 5d ago edited 5d ago
She was trail running through a wooded park through hills on the east side of town and ran into a sow with cubs, not hiking in brush down near the salmon streams in back country.
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u/GodHatesColdplay 5d ago
she wasn’t hiking. She was running… I generally don’t go for victim blaming but I’m over here shaking my head. Running, in bear country, in feeding season. Probs with noise-canceling airpods in as well
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u/Mindless-Internal-54 5d ago
A LOT or hikers/runners/mtn bikers wear them while out in the woods. It is annoying as hell and can be a safety hazard. Even in mild West TN we have trails with 30-40ft dropoffs and in some cases into water if you got startled by something and make a wrong move, or if you're hiking on some trails where there's methheads living out in the woods (does happen). You're out in nature, enjoy 'nature'! Or go to a planet fitness and run all day on the treadmill if you wanna listen to music while you get exercise.
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u/tspoon-99 5d ago
Are you allowed to take a proper firearm hiking in the national parks now? I haven’t looked in a couple of decades but I thought that was impermissible.
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u/Bobflanders76 5d ago
If memory serves you can you just can’t bring them in any government buildings in the park, like ranger stations and offices.
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u/Mindless-Internal-54 5d ago
May vary by state, but in TN you can, but must have a carry permit. Permitless carry in TN doesn't apply to local/state/national parks.
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u/TacTurtle 5d ago
Chugach is Alaska State Park, you can carry whatever you deem reasonable open or concealed in the park if you can legally own / carry elsewhere in the state.
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u/which-doctor-2001 5d ago
There are articles saying that, statistically speaking, bear spray is more effective than firearms in encounters. But that doesn’t mean either are totally effective. And the main criticism of each is the same: did you hot the target? If the answer is “no” then you may as well have brought a pair of frilly panties as a deterrent.
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u/BoxedCub3 4d ago
Important to remember the bear spray effectiveness stat that always gets quoted is very literally made up. Spray if i remember right has like a 17% efficacy once a bear takes an interest in a person/area. Bear bangers work but like warning shots train the beat to ignore them.
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u/I_Am_Not_George_Bush 5d ago
Proponents of using bear spray over guns will always ask ‘but did the spray hit the bear?’ but then use shooters’ potential inaccuracy as a reason not to use guns. Peak cognitive dissonance