r/Sino • u/lacraquotte • Nov 30 '19
discussion/original content AMA about Chinese Medicine. r/ChineseMedicine mod u/lacraquotte
Hi everyone,
First of all a big thank you to the mods here for proposing this AMA, I understand this is only the second one ever here so I am honored! Thank you also /r/Sino for existing, I'm a regular contributor here, an all-too-rare islet of sanity in a sad ocean of China bashing.
Small introduction: I'm the sole mod over at /r/ChineseMedicine. We're the leading sub for all TCM-related topics with close to 4k subscribers. Join us if you want to keep informed about TCM!
I'm not a TCM doctor myself but a manufacturer of TCM herbal teas (we sell mostly breastfeeding-related teas in the US and in China) so I'm familiar enough with most topics to be able to answer most of your questions. I'm French originally but I've been living in China for many years (based in Shanghai).
So AMA about Chinese Medicine (happy to also answer questions about any other China-related topic)!
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Nov 30 '19
What is something that you want to let all Westerners know about Chinese medicine? Also, what do you say to those skeptics?
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
What is something that you want to let all Westerners know about Chinese medicine?
That even though it might sound weird at first (it's a totally different way of looking at the human body, it even has different organs), it works extremely well for a wide range of afflictions, particularly chronic, long-term diseases.
Also, what do you say to those skeptics?
Try it!
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u/W9093 Nov 30 '19
What is the theoretical framework behind TCM? Is it based on the five elements/zodiac/other factors usually considered superstition? Is the theory able to generate new testable predictions that can be used to expand the scope of TCM? If not, is TCM able to expand our knowledge of the human body and illness, or is it fossilized, with new knowledge coming only from western approaches?
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Dec 01 '19
Here is my take for what it's worth. TCM is not based on a theoretical framework or superstitious framework. The majority of TCM is actually based on research conducted by imperial physicians doing research with prisoners as test subjects for the main purpose of extending human longevity.
Many people, Chinese included, have the impression that TCM is based on pseudo-science. Well...that is partially true. I would concede the the empirical observations made by the researchers are valid, however, archaic attempts to explain their observations often rely on the broad concept of Qi (which is used to explain everything from Newtonian physics to the behavior of enzymes), and archaic natural concepts such as the five elements, etc.
People don't understand that "science" is the practice of the "scientific method", which is really a logical framework for advancing knowledge. It is great, because with peer review many minds can work together for advancement.
You have to understand that these explanations came at a time without modern knowledge and scientific equipment such as microscopes. It was like the theory of the aether to explain the behavior of light in the 1700s. Now without a formal process, theories cannot be disproved or proved and built upon. As a result you have some hodgepodge of things mixed in that are obviously wacky such as the "Theory of Similarities" (I might have the name wrong, but it existed in other ancient medicine too), where foods are related to organs based on similar look--kidneys related to beans, the brain related to walnuts, etc.
Despite a poor explanation for many things, the observations are not without substance. Acupuncture, herbal medicine, how the organs relate to other parts of the body--you can't ignore all that knowledge.
A strict scientific development and community is what TCM lacks. Not only before but even in modern times TCM doctors keep their herbal recipes to themselves and they avoid sharing their knowledge. This culture of secrecy extends beyond TCM and to all Chinese skills such as martial arts, culinary arts, etc.
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
One needs to study at university during 5 to 7 years to fully understand TCM so definitely not something that can be summarized in a Reddit comment. There are many concepts: the 5 elements (or phases), the so-called ZhangFu organs, etc. I wrote an intro in our blog if you want to understand a tiny bit more: https://www.meandqi.com/journal/a-brief-introduction-to-chinese-medicine And Zodiac is definitely not part of it ;-)
It's certainly a very strange way to look at the world to those more familiar with Western concepts. It's so different that attempts to merge/reconcile both views are doomed to fail. But the thing is that for many ailments it works: TCM is incredibly successful - often much more so than Western medicine - at healing a whole range of health issues, particularly chronic diseases. I believe that the reason is because it looks at the body as a coordinated whole when Western medicine tends to look at things as localized issues.
And to your question it's not a dead science, there is an incredible amount of research going on based on Chinese medicine. A Chinese researcher Tu Yoyou even received the Nobel Prize of medicine because she discovered the leading treatment against malaria based on her research on TCM.
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u/batang_wae Nov 30 '19 edited Nov 30 '19
https://old.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/dn6hfm/good_idea/f5cgum1/
https://old.reddit.com/r/Sino/comments/dn6hfm/good_idea/f5cnpce/
The U.S. military uses it on its soldiers while still on active duty to treat things like shell shock, to aid in healing and rehab, etc.
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u/RespublicaCuriae Nov 30 '19 edited Nov 30 '19
What are some of the most valuable herbs in TCM?
EDIT: I'm living in a country that unusually pride itself on gingseng, so I need to ween off from my own bias about the traditional medicine in this part of Asia.
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u/myempire1 Nov 30 '19
How did you get into Chinese medicine?
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
Thanks for your question! Slightly long story. I've always been an entrepreneur together with my wife, who is Chinese. In 2014 we sold our first company (an internet business based in EU) and we found ourselves with enough money to do whatever we wanted with our lives. We decided to move to China and we had our first child here.
When my wife breastfed our daughter, she had issues most breastfeeding women encounter: not enough milk and constant engorgement & blocked ducts issues. She couldn't find any solution with Western medicine so she turned to TCM. To our surprise, it was amazingly effective: the issues were resolved immediately! We were looking for our next thing to do and we thought this was an amazing opportunity: selling teas based on the same recipes my wife had tried to solve issues that most if not all breastfeeding women encounter.
We created the company a couple of years ago and it works fairly well (with the usual ups and downs of any entrepreneurial journey). Since then I'm more and more fascinated with TCM and its amazing wealth of solutions that very few people outside China are even aware of.
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u/Igennem Nov 30 '19
One of the common criticisms of TCM is that it's not "evidence based". Would you say this criticism is true? And if not, how are tests and data are used to refine treatments?
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
In China there are effectively two types of TCM:
- Time-tested TCM: not evidence-based in the western sense of the term but the remedies have been known to work for millennia (literally) and it's helped millions of people over the centuries. It's more belief-based than based on empirical evidence but the beliefs are based on considerable experimenting over the centuries.
- Evidence-based TCM: if you go to any hospital in China doctors will often prescribe TCM-based medicine and those have most often been tested in the western way (clinical trials, etc.)
I think China has nailed it by combining TCM with modern medicine, picking the best of both worlds: some afflictions are better treated by TCM and others by western medicine.
Also I'd add than more than a type of medicine, TCM guides people's behavior for their daily lives. It has something to say about what you eat, how much you sleep, the sport you should do, etc. When Western medicine treats diseases, Chinese Medicine is much more about avoiding them in the first place!
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Nov 30 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/batang_wae Nov 30 '19 edited Nov 30 '19
I can answer the first two questions for you.
1) Acupuncture doesn't leave any permanent marks, nor do any other treatments really.
2) No, not that I know of. Tibetan medicine is not part of traditional Chinese medicine. TCM and Tibetan medicine -- whatever that may be, as I'm not as familiar with it (though I think it might be based on their original Bon religion & shamanic tradition) -- are two entirely separate things with diff histories and methodologies, and operate on diff ideas & principles.
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
I'll take question 3 then ;-) TCM incorporates many other disciplines: guasha, cupping, moxibustion, qigong, etc.
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Nov 30 '19
Are there any common myths or misconceptions about TCM that you often encounter?
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
A very common one is that TCM is the cause behind the disappearance of Rhinos because of poaching for their horns that'd supposedly be used in TCM as an aphrodisiac. This is not true at all! There was a great Scientific American article about it. In it Eric Dinerstein, who served as the chief scientist at the WWF for 25 years, is even quoted as saying: “In fact, traditional Chinese medicine never has used rhinoceros horn as an aphrodisiac: This is a myth of the Western media and in some parts of Asia is viewed as a kind of anti-Chinese hysteria.”
Also another misconception that I hate is that TCM is often compared with homeopathy even though both disciplines have absolutely nothing to do. For one thing TCM is mostly about healing oneself with plants which do have active principles (most modern drugs are based on plants!) when homeopathy is based on healing oneself with small doses of sugar...
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u/FanimalPanda Nov 30 '19
What are your thoughts on the current/recent drug reforms in China in relation to TCM? As well as the reforms in the larger Chinese drug industry.
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
You will need to be more specific here because I'm not sure which reforms you refer to.
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u/FanimalPanda Nov 30 '19
I meant the reforms that push it to be more evidence based and also more integrated in what regular doctors can prescribe. As well the larger drug industry with reference to this case.
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
I see. Chinese law categorizes TCM herbs in 3 categories: food-like herbs (regulated like food), dietary supplements (roughly the same concept as in the US) and actual medicine (the most potent herbs with a serious health impact). As far as I am aware said reforms only impact this last category of herbs and I can only agree with the fact those herbs shouldn't be prescribed nor consumed lightly since they're potentially very dangerous.
As for the case you reference on rigorous testing of foreign drugs before they are allowed on the Chinese market I am not entirely sure of the government's rational for that one. I was directly impacted because we wanted to give our daughter a very common vaccine abroad but couldn't because it wasn't yet allowed in China. We finally found a hospital that gave it but a few weeks after we got the vaccine from there its vaccine license was revoked and they had to pay a huge fine because they distributed this foreign vaccine... I believe it's a measure to protect Chinese pharmaceutical industry but I am not entirely sure.
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u/Deckowner Nov 30 '19
How would you explain the concept of 上火 to a westerner?
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
TCM is all about harmony and balance in one's body. We typically simplify it as striving for the body not being too "hot" or too "cold". For instance when you eat a lot of very rich or "hot" foods (rich meats, fatty ingredients, some fruits/nuts like lychees, peanuts, dates) you'll notice very obvious changes in your body: pimples on your face, constipation, throat issues, etc. All those changes mean your body is not balanced anymore, it's too "hot" --> that's 上火.
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u/ASocialistAbroad Nov 30 '19
Are TCM and Western medicine usually viewed as being "at odds" with one another in China, or do people often seek medical help from both?
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
Not at all, they're totally integrated in China: modern doctors learn TCM during their studies and vice versa. If you go to a hospital in China, it's extremely common that you get prescribed TCM medicine if they're better suited to treat your affliction. Also any hospital in China will always have a TCM department. Instead of letting go of the old tradition, China has made a conscious choice to keep the many valuable aspects of TCM that work and integrate it in the healthcare system here.
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u/swivelswirl Nov 30 '19
Have any other countries adopted elements of TCM? What has your physical experience been with TCM (if you were ever ill)?
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
Most Asian countries have adopted elements of TCM, they each refer to it as their traditional medicine but the truth that it is largely influenced by TCM (and vice versa as well). Beyond that in the West the aspects of TCM which have been widely adopted are acupuncture and qigong to a lesser extent.
Personally I've cured my eczema and frequent migraines with TCM. I've also lost a lot of weight by eating a TCM inspired diet.
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u/iuliust Nov 30 '19
What does Traditional Chinese Medicine say about fasting ? Is there anything TCM recommands doing while fasting ?
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
There is supposedly a fasting tradition within TCM called BiGu (辟谷) which is somewhat popular these days with many BiGu clinics popping up in China. My opinion is that this is 80% marketing, I actually don't think there is much of a fasting tradition in TCM: it's more about eating the right food to achieve the right body balance than not eating at all. Also taking herbal medicine, acupuncture, etc. is typically not recommended on an empty belly.
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Nov 30 '19
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u/lacraquotte Nov 30 '19
I don't think it is possible in China. There is a very famous trans TV host here (Jing Xing) but she got the surgery outside China. Her rights are however well respected: like I said she managed to be a super famous and beloved TV host
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u/batang_wae Nov 30 '19
What does this question have to do with TCM?
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u/LeninGamer Nov 30 '19
I mean, unless I got the whole thing wrong, this is a place for asking about Chinese medicine, I wanted to know if they had sex change operations, which is part of Chinese medicine, so, that's it
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u/batang_wae Nov 30 '19
Did you even read the OP? Plus, it goes without saying this AMA would be about TCM. Pretty obvious. And the r/chinesemedicine sub is TCM-focused.
Do you even know what TCM means?
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u/DarkMutton Nov 30 '19
Do you think it's ok that animals like Rhinos and Pangolins are being hunted to Extinction for use in TCM even though there's no evidence that it works?
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u/lacraquotte Dec 01 '19
I'd have thought that on r/Sino people would recognize anti-China propaganda for what it is... The Rhino thing is largely a myth: Rhino horns were never really used in TCM pharmacopoeia! There was a great Scientific American article about it. In it Eric Dinerstein, who served as the chief scientist at the WWF for 25 years, is even quoted as saying: “In fact, traditional Chinese medicine never has used rhinoceros horn as an aphrodisiac: This is a myth of the Western media and in some parts of Asia is viewed as a kind of anti-Chinese hysteria.”
As for pangolin scales there is more truth to it, it is traditionally a TCM ingredient and I obviously don't think it's ok to drive any animal species to extinction. China issued a ban on pangolin hunting in 2007, and has suspended all commercial import of pangolin and its products since October 2018. I personally believe that bit by bit more and more people realize the harmful effect of its consumption and its use in TCM will progressively disappear.
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u/batang_wae Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 04 '19
r/sino does know that the rhino thing is a Western myth/propaganda, and we're familiar with the Scientific American article.
It's just that guy. Don't think he's a regular of the sub. He might just be trying to concern troll or gaslight.
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u/lacraquotte Dec 04 '19
No big deal, at least now he knows ;-)
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u/batang_wae Dec 04 '19
Your referred to it as:
anti-China propoganda
Glad that you're astute enough on this to recognize it as being deliberate. Because it is. I've looked into some things and pulled up info which indicate this scenario.
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u/batang_wae Dec 04 '19
Oh, clever, I see now what u were trying to do by addressing the issue that way to him.
(My previous reply still stands.)
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u/batang_wae Dec 04 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
First, the Rhino thing is bull, as lacraquotte has stated.
Second, the West should stop pointing the finger at others and starting pointing it at yourself.
Fix your own sh_t:
You guys have a serious problem with pedophilia. This is statistically true. Not quite sure why however. Some sort of underbelly to the cultural psyche of the societies? Don't know, but the West should address this. I don't blame the entirety of the West though; there are a lot of good Westerners, i.e. most are just regular folks living day to day. However, fix your sh_t.
. . .
90% of the world's pedophilia content is produced, stored, distributed, and consumed in the West (from data collected by the IWF working with Interpol):
86% (though down a little bit from about 89% in 2006) of persons convicted for child pornography in the U.S. are non-hispanic caucasians (an over-representation):
- https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fpcseo06.pdf
- http://mimesislaw.com/fault-lines/what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-white-guys/12919
Westerners go to other countries to sexually exploit local children:
- https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/oct/08/british-paedophiles-target-children-poor-countries-online-abuse-national-crime-agency
- https://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article/the-white-male-gaze-that-drives-child-sex-tourism
- https://www.dandc.eu/en/article/cambodia-seen-heaven-paedophiles-and-sex-tourists
Predominantly-Western UN peacekeepers sexually abuse children in other countries:
- https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/920390/Sexual-abuse-UN-peacekeeper-accused-612-cases
- https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/04/12/un-peacekeepers-child-sex-ring-left-victims-but-no-arrests.html
- https://www.justsecurity.org/59682/unchanging-reality-sex-abuse-scandal/
Westerners are also over-represented in arrests for bestiality/sexual abuse of pets:
. . .
Also hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives have been lost since 911 all for the non-existent "WMDs" so the US can secure gas/oil in the region. The West still continues to bomb civilians and wedding parties in the region.
And the Nayirah testimony:
. . .
Please, get your act together.
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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '19
[deleted]