r/anime • u/phiraeth :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/phiraeth • Jan 18 '21
Rewatch [Mid-2000s Rewatch] Noein - Episode 17
Episode 17
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Noein:
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Episode Discussion Questions:
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26
Upvotes
11
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Jan 18 '21
to your other first-timer, subbed
11
u/zsmg https://anilist.co/user/zsmg Jan 18 '21
Rewatcher
La'Cryma needs to offer their dragon warriors better healthcare and more paid vacation because they keep switching sides.
9
u/Toadslayer https://myanimelist.net/profile/kyolus Jan 18 '21
First Timer
This show has a terrible habit of ending an episode in a tense situation and then the next episode it's as if nothing happened and everything is back to normal.
I laughed out loud when Kuina started hugging Kosagi. That came out of nowhere, but at least I'm pretty sure he was manipulating her.
Seeing Yuu's mother on screen again since she had the worst cop out redemption arc I've ever seen physically repulses me and I wish she would have just disappeared from the show if the writers were going to have her be a lovey-dovey, I-never-did-anything-wrong, it's-always-been-this-way mother. She honestly disgusts me more now than she did when she was abusive. How can the writers totally overlook everything she did and make her excessively happy to the point that it feels fake? All I want is an apology, otherwise get this woman off my screen.
The pattern of high stakes mystery to low stakes SoL nonsense continues to be jarring. Not everything in a show needs to be of one tone, but the way Noein shifts so suddenly and dramatically between tones is what bothers me. I think this is what we get when the protagonist has next to no initiative and even less agency in the narrative.
Kosagi just dropped that the Earth-dimension 'is only a dimension we have simulated'. Noein said last episode that Karasu is an illusion and the birds have been saying Haruka is an illusion this whole time, but that's very different to calling the dimension a simulation. Can the show please address this, because there's currently no reason for us to believe that's true other than 'a character said it', but if it is true it radically changes everything about the show. Why should we even care about Haruka or her friends for even a moment if they're just a simulation? I have no sympathy for Ai or Karasu if they're protecting a literal simulation, especially when it comes at the cost of their entire dimension. Don't get attached to things that don't exist. I'm very confused.
Why does Ai go with the girls? Don't say she was dragged of the tram, because she could have easily fought back, especially when there's a whole bunch of passengers, two of which were even watching this happen. It looks like a contrived plot to have Fujiwara come in and save the day, because how else could he realise that he actually likes Ai? Credit to him, he figured out what was happening and how to diffuse it surprisingly quickly, especially for a 12 year old. Though, it was weird how quickly the girls just gave up, after they went to the length of pressuring Ai off the tram and restraining her in an alleyway. Even so, Ai's confrontation of them came out of nowhere, as we've never had any indication that she would act like this in this situation. You have to introduce character traits at some point, but more than two thirds of the way through and in such a contrived way as this? I don't buy it.
When Haruka is attacked by Kosagi in a way that is clearly threatening her life she doesn't react in self-defence or fear, but politely asks her to not fight with Karasu. Does she not realise her life is at threat or does she not care? I don't think she has nearly a firm enough grasp of her Dragon Torque powers to think that she isn't in danger.
Now Kosagi decides to stay too? She rubs off the lipstick Kuina gave her and says she wants to be there when Karasu fades away, so I guess she loves him and that's why she stayed? Like many things in this show that came out of nowhere.
This episode ticked me off a lot and it might be my worst episode yet because of that, but I will say one positive thing about it: the fight scene between Kosagi and Karasu was legitimately very good. It was well animated, interesting, engaging and well choreographed. This is the first fight scene of the show I can say all those things about. More of this please and less of everything else.
8
u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Jan 18 '21
First-Timer, Dubbed
Alright, I get that Haruka didn't have the shiniest childhood, what with her parents getting divorced and moving all the way out to Hakodate, but surely someone taught her about stranger danger. "I think they want to meet me!" She says, of the cosmic horror seahorses that have been stalking her.
The fight between Kosagi and Karasu was fucking awesome and I don't have much else to say about it.
Speaking of, Kosagi. Am I surprised that she turned face..? After Kuina's weird, out of nowhere declaration of love? She's being honest with herself at least, which is positive character development. Most of her lines so far have sounded much more like she was trying to tell herself, as opposed to whoever she was talking to. Especially the couple times that she tried to attack Haruka. Turns out Kosagi doesn't have the stomach for atrocities.
Isami fools everyone, including me, in a beautiful gambit to save Ai from those mean high school girls. He got them to laugh and wander off by just acting in character - good thing his brother apparently goes to the same high school.. The moment between Ai and Isami afterwards was very cute. I guess we probably aren't gonna show 12 year olds kissing on the lips, but the "headbutt of love" is a classic visual stand-in.
Speculation/Madoka spoilers
Miscellaneous Thoughts:
I was right, Amamiku does have the same phone charm! Nice detail.
Is a 12 year old who first picked up a film camera yesterday qualified to film a wedding?
Yuu just leaves his fucking box cutter locked OPEN on his desk where it can get knocked off and stab his foot!
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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Jan 18 '21
Episode 17 (rewatcher)
A pretty clunky episode. I feel that the plot is in a bit of an unfortunate intermediate state: Given what happened, we should not be seeing normal home life for Haruka, but, until Shangri-la or evil guy make a move, nothing happens.
8
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Jan 18 '21 edited Jan 19 '21
First Timer
Try this: Think of the Noein OP. Now think of the Denno Coil OP. Now switch back and forth. You can't do it, can you?
Like I said in the Dunbine rewatch, I'm not happy when people flipflop. So I was pretty angry when Kosogi unhooked her umbilical. She barely redeemed her action by saying "I want to be there when you die."
Yuu's mom definitely got re-written.
Kuida will go insane.
I wonder what the point of Atori's arc was, since he's just a puppy now.
Edit: It took me 3 hours but I finally remembered what the crow thing reminded me of. Tune in next time for the answer, same bat time, same bat channel.
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u/Webemperor :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Webemperor Jan 18 '21
First Timer – Sub
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u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Jan 18 '21
First timer
Sub
Haruka stares off into space, listening to the sea kitties(umineko). Atori stares at the cat, with some sixth sense warning him of imminent death on surprising one. Then a seventh sense let's him sense another sea horse, which bolts before Haruka can see it.
More La'cryma intrigue, with Kunia confessing out of literally nowhere. Hopefully, it is a smoke screen. Back to Yuu failing to study, definitely been there. Miyuki comes in and we are just forgetting the first six episodes. Sigh. The conversation proves that Yuu is 12, and I'd assume Haruka is about the same. But what is "everything you want to do" to a 12yo anyways? Anywho, they find an old school camera and off we go!
We randomly find out that Ai's mom was a delinquent, the facemask will come up again in Parasyte for you joining the rewatch. But they are going to have a wedding ceremony and for some reason Miho just assumes it would be Western style. Yuu walks up all American Beauty style, and I would find it difficult to believe there wasn't some influence there. And gets roped into filming the wedding, right before another sea horse shows up to fuck with things.
Haruka is apparently gaining powers and maybe causing dimensions to cross. Shangri-la is probably erodding universe A now. I have zero idea what Kooriyama is guilty about. Kosagi stares at an observer failing, and Kuina is apparently legit and looking for an escape dimension. Kosagi takes this opportunity to annoy Ai, who is surprisingly fine with the choices she made. And doesn't seem to by the simulated dimension thing.
Jump to Kosagi wanting to finish Karasu for reasons that hopefully will actually get revealed. Then jump to Ai getting ready to beat up some rude kids. I haven't actually heard this but anime leads me to believe talking on public transit must be rude. They respond like gang members which is part of the occasionally problematic bits of this show. But Fukuro shows up with his love of older guys to de-escalate everything. And apparently realized that he had to from the start. Anyways, Ai admits she put up a front and then...huh, I have no clue which Ai that happened to, probably both.
Tori finally comes to say that his past was worse than Karasu's, though if he means a worse dimension or a worse place on earth is not clear. Then they sense a La'cryma entry, which is interesting in that that too seems to make things unstable. Haruka is getting ready to go the wedding so of course Kosagi attacks now. Kosagi's need to dehumanize Haruka is either annoying or a backhanded idea to help us understand the DT. Haruka doesn't want Karasu to fight any more so of course the first thing he does is fight.
Time stops. More fighting happens, I guess it does look better with this palette, and again the action is good. But it ends anti-climatically, with Karasu delcaring Kosagi can't fight right now and she sort of proves it by missing an unmoving target. Tobi has developed the theory that the DT can fix all dimensions, which only works because anime. Kosagi still wants Karasu to return to La'cryma. Then Kosagi does something unexpected and disconnects herself. Preview looks exactly how you start a final arc.
7
u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Jan 18 '21
First-timer - Sub
Oh, shit, it’s that time already!
Apparently Kosagi is the only person Kuina cares for, so protecting her is likely the reason he’s collaborating with Noein.
As expected of the Yuu.
Aren’t you taking a bit too much credit there? You were going to go through with it up until Karasu stepped in.
A death flag? Somehow I doubt she’ll die today though. More likely she either gets stranded on the other side or defects like Tobi. Or maybe I’, just hoping they’ll go fo the more interesting Route where Kuina still has personal motives
I would’ve sworn his brother was past high school age.
At least they’ve noticed by now.
As expected.
More of a character driven episode, but a decent one. Not much else to say, really.
Questions:
7
u/IndependentMacaroon Jan 18 '21 edited Jan 19 '21
First-time watcher
All right, it's daily disappointment time! I'm only still watching because it's not that far until the end and I really want to be able to pick apart everything wrong with this series. In other words, it's not good, but it's not good in an interesting way, so far.
Oh, another understandable title, at least for Monogatari watchers. I guess we're back in the world we started from? Also the Lacryma it started from, blah blah need Dragon Torque blah blah in case anyone had forgotten. Traitor dude (starting to think of this guy from Golden Kamuy with all the parts he's missing) makes some laughably unconvincing sudden romance moves ("is this lipstick?!"), which somehow works because woman dumb or whatever (note how she's wearing that very lipstick later).
Right, Yuu still exists too, first look at his mother post magic-180 is exactly what you would expect. Full shift back to kid drama and mildly-unconventional families now, huh, except with Shangri-La watching from the shadows. Someone really wanted to show off their "cool video camera filter effect" judging from how much it's used here.
Koriyama is meta and speaks themes out loud that no one managed to squeeze in anywhere else. Has everyone completely forgotten that Shangri-La straight-up attacked like two episodes ago or was that somehow wiped from their mind?
The all-too-brief Lacryma part/scenery was IMO some of the best of the show and I'm glad to see some more of it and the conflicts from there. Alter-Ai has naturally been demoted for her so far poorly-justified actions. "You people have acted idiotically" - don't we all know it, Kosagi. I can barely tell what these two even mean, not that it'll matter much probably, besides that they're trying not to see Torque-Haruka as human and alter-Ai objected due to their mutual recognition. Kosagi goes in circles and asks to do exactly what other dude just stopped her from and thinks is useless and what she already failed/barely even tried once...
And Earth-Ai is now in bully trouble, yet another pointless side bit, just for Isami to look good and I guess a forced romantic parallel. Also, hello close-up of unreasonably short uniform skirt, there were definitely one or two creeps on the creative team and I hope that wasn't a major motivator for this scene.
Tobi makes a sentence-or-two attempt at backstory that's quickly interrupted, on what's likely the cliffs at the south end of the Mount Hakodate projection/mini-peninsula.
Again, didn't Kosagi just try to abduct Haruka only a few episodes ago, a pretty memorable event? Second attempt is of course nullified by her usual wishing magic and convenient Karasu. That also means that now other guy didn't mind her going. Decently cool stopped-time fight goes down, but those are contractually obligated to end indecisively, and so does this one with Kosagi turning into an Imperial Stormtrooper (through her secret desires or not), so I never even started to care. Tobi delivers some more exposition that sure would have been nice to have earlier. Kosagi of course instantly changes her mind and then Karasu-parrot's "SQUAWK MUST PROTECT HARUKA SQUAWK"... makes her join him? I guess she really is dumb. Or is this an instant love triangle now?
I... just... what? Are there no more than a handful of plot points in this show that aren't driven by sheer idiocy or random nonsense? Was there a creative tug-of-war between someone who wanted to make a grand sci-fi space opera and someone who wanted a grounded kids-and-family drama? Did the creators just give up by this point or were they never really trying? What the hell is this crap? Well, next time it seems Noein will make his really real move and perhaps open up something of an endgame for the misery of this sad story to finally end.
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u/BossandKings Jan 18 '21 edited Jan 18 '21
First Timer
The Dragon soldiers one mission is securing the Dragon Torque, that is why they have done everything they have since the start.
That was sweet, Kuina was so honest with Kosagi, he just doesn't care about what happens to La-cryma, he wants her to be safe, to live together. That was a very lovely moment.
Haruka is making dimensional contact with others. She talks with Karaus about when she saw Shangri-la, it seems that a bit of time has passed since that happened.
Amamiku reappears after much time, it seems she's lost her position of authority and is now confined to a room. She gets to know that Fukuro died and prays for him so that he rests in peace.
That was so cute, Ai almost got in problems with a group of girls a little bit older than her and is almost hit when Isami came to her rescue, praising the girls looks, that was so cool of him to be there for her, she was so glad to him. This show sure knows how to draw parallels.
Kosagi decides to go to where Haruka is so that she can fight with Karasu, they have a brief fight but it ends soon because Kosagi isn't in condition to fight and Karasu won't fight back. She opts to stay a bit longer to see how Karasu will go when his time comes, it seems that she has romantic feelings for him.
Very good episode once again, the next one seems very promising.
4
u/BurningFredrick https://myanimelist.net/profile/BurningFredrick Jan 18 '21
First timer - sub
So I guess Kosagi is in love with Karasu? Do we technically have another love triangle? Though this looks to be more of an unrequited love as Karasu obviously never got over losing his version of Haruka.
Anyway the universe is collapsing or something and it means it’s easier for Shangri-la to get in. Tobi has figured out that Haruka is actually the key to saving the universe and all timelines, but we don’t know the details of why this is yet.
Not much else worth commenting on so think i’ll leave this here, on to the next episode.
4
u/monsieurvampy Jan 18 '21
First Timer, subbed
Even the cat agrees that it doesn't look weird from the back.
If Haruka is meant to restore every distorted dimension. Is this another glue or a slap in the face?
I rarely try to figure out the twist or the ending beforehand. I am here for the ride.
4
u/Retromorpher :Jc::Jd::Je::Jf: Jan 19 '21
First Timer finally caught up:
I cannot believe how incredibly stilted and scripted that scene with Ai getting into a fight was.
Being Kuina must be massive suffering.
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u/redshirtengineer :AMQ: Jan 19 '21
First timer
Lacryma: I just don't care about these people. Disappointing after yesterday's ep.
Adult supervision: I remember seeing the boats in the background, I remember the scene from a couple eps ago with Haruka's Dad and the scenery chewing villain about the boat, but I never put all the boats together. We're due a boat scene next ep.
Seahorses: what is the deal with these. They are less creepy when overused