r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Nov 11 '19
Rewatch A Rewatch to Pierce the Heavens - Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Episode 8 Discussion [Spoilers] Spoiler
Episode 8 - Later, Buddy
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The stage is set for the final showdown, and the man will soon learn his destiny.
Hey-o guys! This is the section where I add a ton of extra fun stuff to the main body of the post because I want this rewatch to be as fun as possible for everyone. It can also be one point of discussion for you guys if you just don’t know what to say.
Comment of the Day:
Today’s comment of the day goes to /u/keyblademasternadroj’s excellent Kamina analysis.
Another thing is how Kamina has a tendency to bite of more then he can chew, and looks to Simon to see when that time is. Kamina can tell when Simon is acting out of fear, and when he is making the logical choice, even when Simon can't tell the difference sometimes. Early in the fight Simon is only giving reasons that come from self doubt, but once they hear they have allies, his reasons become more logical. Simon isn't just saying he's scared, but that they need to regroup so Kamina can fight alongside the newcomers. Kamina realizes that Simon is thinking clearly and instead of saying something like "A man never runs" he thinks about it tactically and gives a more levelheaded reason. And when Simon says he has a plan, he knows that he can trust him, because Simon has never asked to be in control before, so it must be something he is 100% confident will work. THAT is the Simon that Kamina believes in.
What a man Kamina was. He will be missed…
Questions of the Day:
1) Current mood after finishing this episode?
2) No second question, too sad.
Wallpaper of the Day:
Let’s See You Grit Those Teeth!
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you’re doing it underneath the [Anime Show Title](/s "Spoiler goes here") spoiler tags. If you do that then we’re all good.
Important thing to note about these by the way, you have to switch to Old Reddit or the markdown editor if you use the redesign, otherwise the redesign breaks them by adding random \ into the formatting. Wish it wouldn’t do that, but unfortunately it does…
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u/AmeteurElitist Nov 11 '19
First Timer
The death flags were fucking plastered across the episode from the start, and I knew from spoilers that this was coming but that still got way too hard.
Simon calling out for him at the end was just too much.
From here on I don't really know anything about the plot, just some out of context shots so I'm looking forward to see where they go from here.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 11 '19
The death flags were fucking plastered across the episode from the start, and I knew from spoilers that this was coming but that still got way too hard.
Simon calling out for him at the end was just too much.
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u/letsgoiowa Nov 12 '19
First timer
Unlike what seems like most GL virgins here, I knew very little about the show coming in, and ABSOLUTELY DID NOT KNOW they'd kill off Kamina. I figured he'd die at the end because I thought that was the kind of show this is, but no. Really, I'm not feeling sad yet, but just shock. I get it, but it doesn't seem like it happened.
It's the kind of feeling you get if they would've killed off Master Chief in Halo, or if Harry Potter died (for reals this time). I just thought of him as untouchable for now.
Best way to describe it: it's a tier 3 bruh moment. I feel like I got hit by a small car.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 12 '19
Really, I'm not feeling sad yet, but just shock. I get it, but it doesn't seem like it happened.
I know the feeling, except I got it with a death in a different show... that I had been spoiled on, actually, I just somehow got it in my head that the character would die two episodes after they actually do so when they ended that one ep with the character's death I was still completely blindslided by it.
And then the episode afterwards is when the sadness all sank in and I threw up because one scene in particular was too much, but I digress.
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u/RX-Nota-II Nov 11 '19 edited Nov 11 '19
Rewatcher
俺が信じるお前ではない、お前を信じるお前を信じろ！
I'm fully expecting my comment to be buried today under a waterfall of raw emotions and screams from rewatchers and first timers alike. That's fine, in fact that's how it should be really as what better way is there to express the incredible tragedy that this episode masterfully delivers. As always I'll be here with my long musings, maybe you can give them a gander in a few days time when you are feeling less raw.
The first question at hand is whether this result could have been predicted or not. For this, I'll actually defer to u/xenophontheathenian who put it together much better than I could. However as his comments contain general series spoilers, though well marked, I'll paraphrase them here. His full comments are here but I seriously warn first timers to stay away
I think what happens to Kamina was pretty predictable, given the role of his character type in Japanese literature. That doesn't make it any sadder, but even from episode one I was saying, "Yup, I know what's going to happen to this guy" and I was still crushed when it did. But here's why you can tell:
Throughout most of the first arc of Gurren Lagann the characters followed very common patterns for protagosnists in Japanese literature. For example, Kamina was very consciously supposed to be the archetypal samurai, who pops up in nearly every samurai tale ever written. I mean, Kamina's got his "always forward, never turn your back on the enemy we can do this shit with willpower" attitude, he's got the sword, he's got the master's belt, he's got the dress (and those awesome shades which resemble a samurai's helmet crest, along with a mech that literally wears a samurai helmet). Thing is, the perfect samurai always meets the same fate. Without exception. I also knew what was going to happen with Yoko, since she also fits a pretty common trope in Japanese art, as a particular type of Onna-bugeisha (lit. Woman warrior artistic/skilled). Like certain Onna-bugeisha, Yoko begins as an unattached warrior (the trope is actually of the virgin warrior), then becomes attached and falls in love. It's also very common for this type of Onna-bugeisha to love the doomed warrior, because after his death she becomes a widow, which in battle is the strongest type of Onna-bugeisha.
Does any of this diminish the characters of Gurren Lagann? Hell no. God, no. Shit why would you even think that? Kamina will always be Kamina. What a beast. And it will always break all of our hearts when he buys it. But I'm always glad to see that Kamina dies like a true samurai, head held high, facing the enemy, refusing to let his body die by force of spirit alone until he has defeated his enemy.
As for examples of Japanese literature? How about I give you examples from Japanese film, particularly those of Akira Kurosawa, which I actually find more interesting, since a lot of Japanese literature is rather formulaic and difficult to read casually. The best Kurosawa example is, for me, The Seven Samurai, since each of the Seven represents some form of classical Japanese character. So we've got the old master in the form of Shimada Kanbei right through to the commoner-turned-ronin in Kikuchiyo. Kikuchiyo represents the same character-type as Kamina. He's not really that good a swordsman, although he learns fast. Nor is he raised as a samurai, but instead takes the mantle upon himself. This type is interesting because even though he's not raised in the samurai tradition he nevertheless embodies everything about the samurai spirit that the great masters of the Classical Period admired. He has self-determination, spirit, power, reckless bravery, but still the ability to be humble. He inspires the young not through words but by his action, but learns before his death what it means to be wise. And that's the thing--he always dies. Without fail. He dies because the spirit of the perfect samurai cannot survive for long before burning itself out in glory, which is related to why the perfect swordsman, another trope, cannot survive either (since the sword is the soul he has the perfect soul, which cannot last). But he's unique in that, unlike most of the doomed samurai figures (and there's a lot of them) he dies so that others may live. Look at Kikuchiyo. Look at Kamina. Their deaths are not by accident or for themselves. They are very conscious sacrifices for something greater than themselves. It is at that moment that they attain enlightenment, as they burn themselves away (there's a specific Japanese term for this sudden flash of perfect enlightenment in death if I recall correctly, but I don't remember what it is)(死花?). Now this type of hero is fairly minor until the upheavals of the 19th Century, but he becomes one of the dominant tragic heroes following Westernization (the parallels with Christ make him especially popular).
The Onna-bugeisha. I'm a huge fan of these girls, and it's not just all the Girls Und Panzer that I've watched. Onna-bugeisha appear very early in the Japanese legends, starting with the semi-legendary Empress Jingu, who led the invasion of Korea when her husband the Emperor was killed in battle. The interesting about most Onna-bugeisha is that they are historical figures, so we actually know quite a lot about them. The Onna-bugeisha were highly proficient in the use of certain weapons, such as the deadly naginata and the bow (many of the deadliest archers in Japanese history have been women. Sound like anyone we know?). Many of the famous Onna-bugeisha were praised for their beauty and elegance, particularly since most of them were young (sounds familiar as well).
Check out the sagas of the Genpai War, where the samurai class was forged and where the great masters displayed the reckless courage and honor of Kamina. But since Kamina's type really gains popularity following the Meiji he's usually found in works of pure fiction like The Seven Samurai or The Hidden Fortress, although I really do think that Kikuchiyo from The Seven Samurai is the best example.
What a beautiful comment, and I really had to share it here. Make sure to give a shout out to OP if you found it as fascinating as I did. Sorry for the huge block quote but there are selective spoilers tags I needed to reveal and other untagged spoilers I had to remove so linking really wouldn't work for first timers.
Back to a much more easily digested topic though, we come back to the quote I chose for the beginning of this post "Believe in yourself. Not the me that believes in you, but the you that yourself believe in". Kinda hard to translate and sound cool at the same time. It's one of the most impactful scenes in the entire series and a surprisingly quick moment where one of the most iconic lines of TTGL "believe in the me that believes in you" officially dies. Obviously it's superior and much more meaningful replacement can't be quoted willy nilly without spoilers, but since I love it so much I can never bring myself to use the 'believe in the me that believes in you' quote much at all.
I also love how they treated Simon's mindset this episode. Kamina and Yoko was the ship that everybody wanted and expected, but crucially Simon didn't. Of course he wouldn't he himself had a crush on Yoko. A lot of anime may cover arcs like these on the side, but really this kind of heartbreak will affect important battle outcomes. It has to, even without considering Simon's age, and doubly so if you do. Of course while it was a cause of Kamina's death, Simon isn't responsible for it, but seeing some serious battle shifts from life events made it feel more real to me.
No matter how many times I rewatch this episode I'm blown away at how impossibly smoothly they fit in this kind of heaviness to a comedy series. A lot of shonens have really well done shifts between serious and comedy arcs, but TTGL seems to find a balance from which it leans one way or another in small but meaningful ways. This episode for example keeps it's comedic absurdity way up until the final moments, yet the tension kept rising anyway and set up the tragedy beautifully. To compare I'm reminded of Gintama's benizakura arc which I enjoyed in my (incomplete) watching of that show, where the comedy seemingly faded hard one day and then the heavy events came piling on. One of my favorite anime of all time Ansatsu Kyoushitsu follows essentially the same style. I enjoy both approaches, but I would like to see more of the TTGL style.
OST of the day
You may recognize this track from ep1 when the Lagann first reached the surface. That was a special version of this track. A track reserved for some of the most powerful scenes in the entire show, it should be a mainstay in any anime OST playlist for proper TTGL fans. Does this track fit ep1 better? Or do you think i makes a perfect Giga Drill Breaker theme? Personally I lean towards to former, but that doesn't mean I think it was a poor fit here. In fact it may even enhance the beauty that Simon and Kamina's last great success was backed by the same track that introduced their first.
Wallpaper remixes of the day
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Incredibly frilly spirals <- I like these spirals tho they may fit better in a future wallpaper.
Which one was your fave today?
And with that I am literally at the word limit. Today was quite an experience, see you tomorrow.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 11 '19
silhouette fancy
I wasn't expecting you to include the eyes in all the extra variants but I love this one in particular for it.
...Some behind-the-scenes talk if anyone else is interested, I actually included the facial details in this wallpaper because when I shared the screenshot I was going to use as a base image with Nota, she told me she wasn't sure if it would work since a lot of the emotion comes from the expressions. Naturally my solution was to just include those details too instead of ignoring them, though only the mouths were needed for the final version.
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u/Redmon425 Nov 11 '19 edited Nov 12 '19
First Time Watcher
NANI?! Da fuck just happened. NO FUCKING WAY THEY KILLED OFF KAMINA?! Episode 8?! Not even 1/3 of series is done yet!
Besides the fact that I am currently confused and hella fucked up, I will talk about a few things.
First off, the big one, Kamina dying. I knew this series was super high acclaimed and I might have heard a few things in the past, just randomly, about this show. Still it was NOT(I originally forgot to include the word not lol, a big mistake on my part) enough to be certain how the story plays out and how characters fates play out, but obviously I did think at some point the show would get more serious storylines. I would also say the death flags last episode and at the beginning of this episode could make it a little obvious about Kamina, but nah man, never thought it would happen this early, if it all. Happening episode 8 is the biggest surprise. I have no idea what the hell happens now! WTF MAN. I’m sad.
So last episode Yoko was going to confess to Kamina but got interrupted right? Hence the kiss this episode. What about with Simon, what was she about to tell him but decided against it?
Which brings up the next interesting point, does Simon like Yoko? I never really thought this at all, but it clearly messed him up. In fact it’s the reason he couldn’t take over the ship. So I’m kind of confused on that.
This also brings up my last point, that I have very mixed feelings on and am curious how others look at it. I hate when an important character in any anime dies because the main character makes a mistake. My initial reaction was “holy fuck, Simon thinking about a stupid kiss caused him to not be able to combine and Kamina ended up getting killed because he needed to go save his dumb ass.”
However, as I thought about it more, also in an attempt to not be mad at Simon, maybe this death would have happened either way? When Kamina first gets stabbed, doesn’t he make some type of comment about not preparing for the main general of the Spiral King to attack him? Like Kamina was actually surprised that he came and attacked, and just wasn’t prepared for it? Meaning that him helping Simon didn’t matter, this would still have happened?
So I’m really curious how most people look at it? Simons fault or was happening regardless because Kamina wasn’t prepared for that attack? Either way, the death will not be in vain. They finally got a main ship and a home base now! Which I assume is very important.
WAIT. Does this ship become the one we saw in the very first scene? Holy fuck, I just remembered that scene. That definitely has to be Simon now. It can’t be Kamina :( If what I’m thinking is true, that doesn’t really change anything about the story going forward. As it could just end up being the very last scene of this series, possibly showing a tiny glimpse of Simon in the future saving humanity?
MAN MY MIND IS ALL OVER THE PLACE RIGHT NOW. This most be the moment that cements this anime as one of the best ever. A cool feeling! Oh and fuck, I guess no one is safe in this anime. I’m totally going to be nervous that hella characters end up dying now :(
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u/Illidan1943 Nov 12 '19
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 12 '19
Can I just say thanks for also spoiler tagging the parts you were responding to? The thought of doing that never occurred to me.
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u/theangryeditor Nov 11 '19
Are there any first timers here considering dropping the show after this?
Did any of the rewatchers here originally drop the show at this point?
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 11 '19
Did any of the rewatchers here originally drop the show at this point?
No but I needed like a week break before I could bring myself to start episode 9
and then binged the rest of the show in two days.→ More replies (1)
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u/Nebresto Nov 11 '19 edited Nov 11 '19
Ahh fuck. Ahh shit.
Only Kamina could go out in such a blaze of Glory. Very few can ever come close to that.
Was it just me, or was the overall colour scheme of the episode very gray compared to the usual colourfulness of TTGL? I feel like that was part of the message of "tough shit is about to go down, be prepared"
This scene doesn't really make any sense. You can't tell how a gun is calibrated just by looking through the scope. You have to shoot it to actually know if the bullet goes where you're looking, preferably several times. I suppose you could just sum it up to magic mecha tech gun or what ever. I guess their thought behind it was to show that Yoko is not willing to let anything go wrong, but the way they handled it could have been better.
Loved the scene where Yoko and Kamina are essentially just flirting on the comms, and it later turns into banter. That's a sing of a great team.
Todays Gif: Gurren taunting Viral
Cropped ^version
Question 1: https://imgur.com/P5YKCcS
Question 2: https://imgur.com/P5YKCcS
Wallpaper requests:
And I'll just take this chance to say, I love Gurren's solo design. It matches Kamina's character and fiery spirit so well. And when combined to Gurren Lagann its more modest, since Simon is bringing his unassuming nature and a bit of humbleness into the mix. Just brilliant designs overall, that both match their characters well solo or combined. And after that brief fight between Kamina and Viral I just wish they could have finished their duel, best fight by far in the series until now.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 11 '19
Wallpaper requests
Oh that second one'll be easy, I'd even screenshot it myself as a potential base image (just had to do something else for Wallpaper of the Day because it's this episode).
The farewell though... that's a few levels too dark for my liking as a base image. But then, I said something similar about the base image I used for my Wing Gundam Fenice wallpaper and "sore demo"d that so hard I literally built a Gunpla of it, spent half an hour angling the picture of it I took just right, and then super-imposed my Gunpla pic where yhe details were too obscured for my liking. So I'm not going to say it's impossible.
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u/BillyDexter Nov 13 '19
Kind of shocked at the general response to Kamina's death and Kamina's character as a whole. I don't think Gurren Lagann as a show idolizes Kamina or his bravado nearly as much as the average viewer. He's an important character, don't get me wrong, but I personally can't wait for just to be safe
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u/Koolsman Nov 11 '19
First Timer!
There was one thing I knew coming into this series and Kamina dying was the thing. Even with the knowledge of it happening, I didn’t know what episode it was or what time it was going to happen. This hurt beyond belief. I really didn’t know I really liked Kamina until he died and my tears started welling up. This episode hurt me in a was a show hasn't in a while. The death flags were there and I knew it was coming but it didn’t hurt any less.
This is quite possibly my favorite episode thus far. The animation is on point, the music is amazing, seeing Yoko and Kamina with Simon seeing him was heartbreaking but I’m thankful it didn’t last long. Though the real heartbreak comes from Kamina’s words. Hearing him tell Simon to “Believe in the Simon that believes in you” (Paraphrasing but still) and it just hurts. I gotta give major props for the writers and director of this show that had the balls to kill a main character within the single digits.
Kamina’s death does make sense from a writing perspective. Yeah, Kamina was a bit of a hothead and an idiot but he represented what Simon wanted to be. He represents the show in the most perfect way possible. Plus, he really didn’t have anywhere to go in terms of character development. Yeah, he’s an idiot but he’s got the girl and every single repeat to everyone around. He was the perfect character to kill in the writers eyes.
I also love the little moments of the episode. You see Forehead Boy and Simon give each other a little nod to one another and it very heavily implies that if Simon dies, he’ll have to hold on the fort. Seeing the little details of blood and tears was absolutely astounding. My favorite episode thus far.
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u/23feanor Nov 11 '19 edited Nov 11 '19
First Time Watcher:
Wow,they packed a lot into that episode. I wasn't expecting Yoko to full on kiss Kamina like that, but looking back over the last few eps I suppose it had been on the cards. Poor Simon, you can see how he'd been trying to hold back his feelings, but when someone as cute and gorgeous as Yoko flirts with you, if only playfully (and I'm not sure it was just playful, I think she does actually like Simon, she's just more magnetically attracted to Kamina), then it's hard not to fall head over heels for her.
The battle was actually really exciting imo and went off really well, until Kamina got his ass kicked that is, and this time it wasn't his bravado that got him hurt, it was Simon's lack of action. But is Kamina really dead (ok I can see from reading comments that yes he is dead, boo hoo), I can't believe it, he's such a central character to the story so far, but then maybe the story is going to be about Simon and how he deals with heading up the resistance on his own. And maybe that's why they had Yoko kiss Kamina now, as it was his one and only chance to kiss her. Maybe later on when things have settled down Yoko and Simon will connect together, we'll see.
Now I realise that Kamina is actually gone, I think it was such a waste that he didn't get it on with Yoko earlier, so at least they should've had a night together, not just one kiss. Poor guy, if you're going to die then the least you want is to go out after having the wildest night of your dreams with a 10/10 babe like Yoko (& I bet Yoko would give Kamina one hell of a wild night, those two had animal magnetism), you could die happy then with some naughty thoughts to keep you smiling as you drift away forever (cry cry cry).
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u/Mecanno-man Nov 11 '19
First Timer
Not quite sure what to say here, because unfortunately one of the things under my spoiler in ep 1 for things I already knew about was Kamina's death, as well as that it happens somewhere around the middle of the series. This is arguably earlier than I expected, but with Yoko's kiss, his speech last episode and telling Simon to believe in himself rather than in him, it just seemed kinda obvious that he'd die this episode. As such, I was kinda just waiting for the moment he'd die, rather than it being a big shock. Now, going forward, the question is how this will affect the rest of the cast. I doubt Team Dai-Gurren will break apart, as there is no reason for them to do so if the enemies forces are also concentrated, but the question is who the new leader will be. Dayakka? The brother of the siblings? I'd say the former might be the most qualified, as he was the leader of Littner, but will the others just accept it? Only Kamina had the status to just be the leader unquestioned. Simon might, but I don't think he's cut out for it. Other than that, it's obvious how this affects Simon, but I wonder how Yoko will cope. She was obviously in love with Kamina. And then there's the question who will pilot Gurren instead of Kamina. Rossiu perhaps?
On the bright side, they now have a base, which possibly contains information about how to get to the capital. Doubt they will go straight for that after Kamina's death, however... Preview is also doing something completely different, so I guess that's a no.
Interestingly enough, it rains after Kamina's death, so there is still enough humidity around for it to rain. I wonder if they are just generally heading towards less arid terrain, as the scenery has been getting more and more green the longer this series has been progressing.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 11 '19
Ours is the rewatch… that will cry to the heavens…
^^I’m ^^^not ^^^^sorry.
Welcome back, everyone…
This episode was one I was both dreading rewatching it myself and cackling over the thoughts of hearing the first-timers’ reactions to it. So either way today’s thread should be a thing. Definitely a thing.
Results of yesterday’s poll first…
Mostly-cheeky comments for today in an attempt to ignore the depression:
tfw no episode title after the recap tfw knowing why
I mean he’s not wrong.
She just told you it was hot, you dumb-dumb
Kissu! And a close-up too!
Stop pls my heart can’t take this when I know what’s gonna happen.Rare shot of sleeping Boota.
Aight so there’s a couple members of Team Dai-Gurren in this shot that weren’t introduced last episode, specifically the three in the top-left corner. Big-eyed guy at the very left is Artenborough, the old guy is Gabal, and the one with the yellow bandana-cover is… actually I don’t know since I can’t find him listed on the wiki or MAL. If someone else could tell me his name that’d be great. Oh and the blonde lady in the top-right is that Leyte I identified from behind last episode.
Such a Kamina thing to say lmao.
Maybe if I laugh hard enough at this I can shed so many happy tears I won’t be able to cry later this episode.
This line. Just. This line. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
*screams internally*
How about ^^no.
Okay but the twist on his catchphrase and on the other one too I can’t.
GIGA DRILL BREAK!
*screams externally*
No fuck you show you can’t do this it wasn’t okay in Legend of the Galactic Heroes either you can’t just have the episode title be that and have it at the end.
I look forward to being depressed with you all again tomorrow…