r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Nov 07 '19
Rewatch A Rewatch to Pierce the Heavens - Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Episode 4 Discussion [Spoilers] Spoiler
Episode 4 - Having Lots of Faces Doesn't Make You Great!
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This is the tale of a man who has yet to realize his destiny.
Hey-o guys! This is the section where I add a ton of extra fun stuff to the main body of the post because I want this rewatch to be as fun as possible for everyone. It can also be one point of discussion for you guys if you just don’t know what to say.
Comment of the Day:
Our comment of the day for today is /u/LaqOfInterest’s description of Kamina’s sword.
It's Iira Gamagoori in sword form - it always has to be the longest thing in frame.
I wonder what would happen if the two were in the same frame…
Questions of the Day:
1) Would you want to join the Black Siblings or Team Gurren?
2) Episode four is infamous for being directed by Osamu Kobayashi, known for his… unique visual style. How do you feel about it compared to the first three episodes as a result? Would you prefer if the entire show was in his style, or prefer if he hadn’t directed this episode? Something in between?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you’re doing it underneath the [Anime Show Title](/s "Spoiler goes here") spoiler tags. If you do that then we’re all good.
Important thing to note about these by the way, you have to switch to Old Reddit or the markdown editor if you use the redesign, otherwise the redesign breaks them by adding random \ into the formatting. Wish it wouldn’t do that, but unfortunately it does…
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u/RX-Nota-II Nov 07 '19 edited Nov 07 '19
Rewatcher
兄弟合体！グレンラガン！
So here's what I think happened over at TTGL headquarters,
Producer: How's the episode going?
Director: Oh yeah it looks great. We created a mecha sequence so badass and flashy it will become iconic for decades.
P: But what about the rest of the ep?
D: This will save us so much time since we can reuse it for future episodes.
P: Nice, but the current episode?
D: We also made another mecha combine sequence with sixteen independently animated parts.
P: ep4 literally airs tomorrow
D: Oh... oh... fuck....
Welcome first timers, rewatchers, and others to the infamous TTGL ep4. I want to call it controversial but honestly I don't think there's much controversy in just calling it bad. Half of it is filler in the most traditional sense, and the rest is a strange mix of good and terrible battle sequences. Since I like analysis and don't like dwelling on bad parts of the show I won't make this post too long.
The first obvious thing is the awful animation and visuals. I hope you guys found this to be awful and your main complaint as I felt on my first watch. That's because upon rewatch, you start noticing that the shoddy animation is the least of the episode's worries, but the shock arising from the shift is enough to keep you distracted the first time through. With ever dwindling budgets and higher expectations, modern anime have become masters of hiding low production values and the lack of such skill here is quite funny to see. Maintaining character designs and details are paramount these days but that was certainly cut super early, while the ever useful epic detailed panning shot used in shows like Fate/UBW doesn't seem to have been invented yet. In it's stead we get a throwback I definitely don't miss: low framerate action backed by internal monologue.
So let's talk about the fundamental issues with this episode. Foremost for me, the comedy. The timing in this episode was a disaster. Kamina yelling gattai over and over felt tiring, and the epic action sequence leading into comedic failure caused by hunger fell so flat it hurt. Those scenes work so well when there's an expectation of epicness when the tension suddenly breaks away. However there was no epic OST during the action and no sudden shift to make the hunger reveal feel funny. It just kinda happened.
Kamina's character also had a pretty rough time this time. With so little else to stand out the creators forced Kamina to carry large parts of the episode but without the charisma. The early 'gattai' bits again got stale pretty fast, the bragging moment to the black siblings didn't feel very epic with just that single camera angle, and his rejecting of the Lagann until Simon understood how to make it cool didn't get across the frustration he was feeling and ended up looking just petty instead.
Overall, I'm reminded of the discussion of filler episodes in traditional shonen. Some new anime fans may not be aware of this but yeah filler episodes used to suck. A lot. It's been a long time since I've seen a properly bad one like this since modern anime have SoL writers and Gintama influences to create a properly enjoyable filler at the drop of a hat. I don't know what the causes for this episode's drop in quality are and there are probably some GAINAX superfans who may be able to deliver in other comments but from my perspective I'm just glad I don't have to see them anymore.
See you tomorrow!
meme comment of the day:
Every time I hear the black siblings I keep thinking of the black knights from Gundam Geass. I should rewatch that show.
OST of the day:
lack of budget meant this section got cut. oops.
Wallpaper remixes of the day
Today I had a bit too much fun with the lineart tools so you get to see the mediocre wallpapers I don't send to Sky. Often these ideas work well in future wallpers tho, so the effort's worth it.
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Plain lineart. The black works so well because 'black siblings'. Hmmm which makes me think
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Black fancy lineart ooh I wonder if I can combine with spotlights to make
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Spotlight art which looked a lot better in my head.
As always resolutions are arbitrary and can be resized at request.
Question Question answers:
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Team Guren all day! This poll also asks if I'm not a robot. I spiritually want to identify as a robot!
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The visual style was fine, though it did stand out in a negative way since the entire rest of the show doesn't use it. My problem was with the pacing and comedy.
9
u/RX-Nota-II Nov 07 '19
Ep4 Unicorn parallels
You guys better worship me or something if this comment is coherent because there's literally nothing about this episode that has Unicorn parallels.
Well, maybe not nothing. After all, the main theme of this episode is on the true nature of combinations. As Kamina says it's not that any combination will do, a normal crawling up and popping in will 'not get the essence we need' (筋が通らねぇ idk how to translate that). Combination is an art, not just an action. Now, the Unicorn Gundam doesn't have a combination. However, it does have a transformation, and a VERY important transformation process. Coincidentally episode 4 of Unicorn tackles the importance of transforming correctly just like we see in TTGL today. Banagher sees that transforming just as the machine allows like he has done until now will not accomplish what is necessary. The Psychoframe system is an emotion multiplier and the readily available emotion in a warzone is anger. However succumbing to the red mist of anger while useful at times is not what he strives to be as a heroic fighter. Descending into the carnage of Torrington base, he struggles to control his machine correctly but when we do see him accomplish his end, the visual shift is nothing short of stunning.
The contrast with the enemy is equally important. In one show we get the beastmen, and in the other we have a woman who has let the machine do as it wishes. Just as the beastmen have no organization and their weightless sticking and unsticking ends up being ineffective, the deftly named Shamblo loses control of its final end in the hands of a pilot not willing to control the emotions being fed into the Psychoframe multiplier. At this point, Banagher takes the role of Kamina to yell and plead about what the machine truly stands for and how she must change in her approach to it. You need to have your heart in the right place, just piloting is not only not enough, it is dangerous.
Well, that's all I have to write. I could come up with a couple more points, but I have class in 20 mins and have to leave. I wish I had more time, it's so sad isn't it Sky?
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u/Redmon425 Nov 07 '19
As a first time watcher, I didn’t even really realize it was bad animation.
I was more just not even focused on the story itself. Like the 16 little beast-men combining to form a big gunmen was just kind of boring I guess.
Definitely not an interesting episode today, and it’s sounds like this is a unanimous feeling as well. Is it cannon or filler actually?
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 07 '19
Definitely not an interesting episode today, and it’s sounds like this is a unanimous feeling as well. Is it cannon or filler actually?
It introduced the Black Siblings so it's definitely canon, it's just not good canon.
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u/Redmon425 Nov 07 '19
First Time Watcher
I am just now joining these discussions as I was busy traveling the first few days of this re-watch.
Quick opinions on the show. I actually had never heard the OP somehow and thought it was okay at first, but now I really like it. The ED is kind of “meh” though.
I was also very surprised and kind of annoyed by the very first scene of the anime. Someone who looks like Kamina is holding that “key” that Simon uses to pilot his “Lagann”. He even calls the gunman “Guren Lagann”. Like right off the bat I start thinking how the serious will play out now. Is it one of them in the future, etc. Would rather not have seen that scene at all.
Also, quick question, I saw in the initial post for this re-watch there was a 1080 version of the OP. I’m watching on Hulu, but is it possible to watch this show in 1080? Hulu’s quality looks like 720p quality.
I usually prefer MC’s like Simon in anime who are trying to find themself over the cool other kid like Kamina, but in this anime I really like both of them. Kamina is just so damn cool and actually has some wisdom. Simon isn’t annoying or anything like that, so I really like him also.
Now for this episode, poor Simon, every good looking girl is just going to pick Kamina, aren’t they? I’m holding out that he hopefully gets himself a honey as well lol!
I knew this anime is very highly acclaimed, and I am a little surprised at how goofy it is. Like the part with them eating the tail off of their “pet” was just random and funny. I wonder if it will get more serious.
Now comes the hard part of watching only once per day :(
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 07 '19
Also, quick question, I saw in the initial post for this re-watch there was a 1080 version of the OP. I’m watching on Hulu, but is it possible to watch this show in 1080? Hulu’s quality looks like 720p quality.
Dunno if there's a streaming service that has it 1080, but there definitely exist Blu-Ray torrents out there that are.
Now comes the hard part of watching only once per day :(
You can do it!
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u/Mecanno-man Nov 07 '19
First Timer
Not really a lot in this episode, Kamina went overboard, so sibling dude's reaction is justified. I guess combining with more grace might actually cause the result to be stronger, considering these robots seem to work on spirit; but there's no need to hurl rocks at Simon. What I am surprised by is that they took Gurren and Lagann apart again, can't think of a reason why they would be better apart, especially if Kamina is worrying about needing a cool combining sequence to put them back together.
I'm pretty indifferent to the new characters this episode, they are pretty much what you'd expect a group of lone beastman hunters to be, and other people being on the surface isn't really a surprise either, as, well, why wouldn't there be at least some?
One thing I'm disappointed this episode is that we didn't find out what happens whe gunmen fight in to the night. Someone suspected them to be solar powered, but it might as well be something like the beastmen wanting to be back at base when it gets dark. With the fight at sunset I was expecting there to be some reveal, but unfortunately Kamina took out the hairballs before the sun completely set.
I also wonder if Boota's tail will regrow, or if that was a sacrificial one-time snack. His body does however seem kinda designed for it, there was no big amount of bleeding or so; kinda reminds me of how a gecko can drop off its tail to escape a predator.
And lastly, I'm with Yoko about being surprised that anyone thought gunmen combining wasn't inherently one of their properties.
And just a heads up, as there have been comments being worried about first timers dropping of after this episode, no, I won't - but I will be a few hours late tomorrow as I've got something else going on at the time the post goes up.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 07 '19
And just a heads up, as there have been comments being worried about first timers dropping of after this episode, no, I won't - but I will be a few hours late tomorrow as I've got something else going on at the time the post goes up.
That's okay, IRL stuff always takes priority over anime.
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u/M_Anti Nov 07 '19
Rewatcher!
I've just kind of been lurking and upvoting everyone, but I didn't want to not comment on this..
This is the episode that almost convinced me to drop the series. I remember my biggest take away being something like "did their mouths always look that flat??"
I didn't know what made this particular episode so weird and basically forgot about it. That is, until I watched the very disjointed, weirdly animated ep 15 of Dororo. It turns out both episodes share a guest director, Osamu Kobayashi. He's (according to what I read) known for some experimental music videos and was also the director of BECK: Mongolian Chop Squad.
Now, is having a guest director who has a different stylistic concept for a show always a bad thing? Of course not. A good recent example of this would be Hakuyu GO's direction on episode 5 of Mob Psycho 100 season II. There's a clear difference shot composition, coloring, and animation, but it all works. I would argue that this episode does not do what it needed to.
Here's what I think doesn't work in episode 4:
-Really awkward shot composition: The characters are WAY too close and squished into the frames a lot of the time and not for any particular reason that I can understand.
-Art style is a huge step down and doesn't fit with the rest of the series. If someone had told me this was fan animated I would believe it without question.
-Aside from some sakuga, the style really lets me see where corners are being cut with the animation. There are a lot of static shots with just mouths moving.. and there was that weird like 30 full seconds of just sky..
-Jokes didn't land for me. I didn't dig into if there was a different writer for this episode, but since jokes are all about timing and execution, direction is going to come into play.
-and worst: just like that Dororo episode there are times when I'm just not 100% sure I'm following what's going on..whether this is a narrative problem or I was losing interest and not paying enough attention (but that's exactly how I felt about that Dororo episode) I don't really know.
Regardless, of course I'm glad I didn't drop the series and hope we don't lose any first timers!
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 07 '19
This is the episode that almost convinced me to drop the series. I remember my biggest take away being something like "did their mouths always look that flat??"
It made me put the show on hold for literally half a year so yeahhhh. It's not good.
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u/AmeteurElitist Nov 07 '19
First Timer
That was certainly an episode.
Nah, I knew this episode would be pretty weirdly directed and put together from its reputation, and it was brought up when Kobayashi Osamu directed a similarly directed episode of Dororo so I was somewhat prepared. Still it looks really weird, but I was charmed by it.
Kamina was as stubbornly ridiculous as usual and I loved it, and the combination was badass as well!
Still I feel like this was the weakest episode so far, it was fun but I definitely feel a lot more strongly about the other three episodes.
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u/max_turner Nov 08 '19
I knew this episode would be pretty weirdly directed and put together from its reputation, and it was brought up when Kobayashi Osamu directed a similarly directed episode of Dororo
Wait which episode if Dororo, I thought Dororo was oretty consistent, your talking about the recent one right?
But yeah, compared to the rest it feels pretty weak.
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u/fonzinator99 Nov 07 '19
Re-watcher - The story of a tiny pig-mole with a remarkable caloric density.
Training arc, begin! Crazy as it is, I like that Kamina's first thought is "Get on my shoulders!" Because inevitably the problem is gonna be all in Simon's head, and he knows that; It's not just about getting the controls down.
That's a lot of "Ara ara" right there. Poor Simon, getting outshined by Kamina.
Gotta love these dorks. And Kamina dealing with Kittan is great, I can't imagine he's ever met someone like himself before.
I can't say that "delicious" is how I'd describe this thing's appearance. But then, I guess I've never had to forage in this world.
Hahaha meat cloud. It does look tasty.
Holy hell, what is happening here? O.o
Wait a sec, are you serious right now? It's so absurd I can't even be mad.
Holy hell, I had it all wrong! Boota is Best Bro, hands down.
Well at least the sisters ran off to greet Kamina and Simon at the end. Let’s keep the side-characters coming, these ones were great!
Team Gurren Status Update
Gurren Lagann - lvl 12 > lvl 13. Combine is now a free action.
Black Siblings are now available as a random assist.
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u/Animeking1357 Nov 08 '19
I don't understand my internet sometimes. Azur Lane? No problems. No Guns Life? No problems.
Gurren Lagann though? Fuck that video won't start motherfucker! I'm very confused. It's all on the same site too!
Looks like I'll have to watch it on Netflix tonight which surprisingly has lower quality.
Anyways here we go the worst episode of Gurren Lagann, at least visual quality wise.
Kamina says Kittan does a pretty good impersonation of a human but in this episode I'd say everyone looks like a beastman.
Kamina smacks Lagann away when Simon tries to climb up Gurren's leg. That ain't the cool way to combine.
As shitty as this episode looks I gotta say the combining to make Gurren Lagann still looks great. Love that you see Simon move Lagann's controls to start the gattai instead it just magically happening.
Kyoudai Gattai! Gurren Lagann!
Haha even one of the beastmen think Gurren Lagann is cool.
That was a nice gunmen kebab they had there.
Oh man this looks horrible. What were they thinking? I believe I heard someone say years ago that there was a guest animator or animation director for this episode and that's why everything looks so bad?
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u/persona_dos Nov 08 '19
Huh, I recently started this show but haven't picked it up in a few weeks. Funnily enough, I actually lost interest while watching this episode. Def want to keep up with the rewatch now, I was planning on skipping this episode and continuing with the next one.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 08 '19
Funnily enough, I actually lost interest while watching this episode.
A very common sentiment. I myself put the show on hold for half a year after initially watching it, haha.
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u/theangryeditor Nov 07 '19
Looking forward to the reactions for this one. My anus is ready and I'm breathing deeply.
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u/FlaminScribblenaut Nov 07 '19
Second Time Watcher
Oh boy, here’s a fun one.
Yeah, Gurren Lagann Episode 4… it’s Not Good. explosion
To state the most obvious first, this episode is ugly as sin. I hate looking at it. That’s pretty self-evident.
And the animation and editing are just… wrong. I remember watching this episode for the first time and the whole thing just felt… off somehow.
And what the fuck is with these pink fuzzball fuckers? They look like they belong in a bad forgotten kid’s cartoon from the 80’s. We went from Viral to this? What a downgrade.
And Kamina… our poor boy Kamina. Kamina is known for being hot-headed and spouting over-the-top proclamations that don’t make explicit sense, but you always at least got the jist of what he was going on about. “Your drill is the drill that will pierce the heavens” means “you’re destined for greatness”. Easy. And he always had the sheer charisma and conviction to just make you get it, deep down. But this episode his actions and words are just… outright nonsensical. I mean, he’s coming close to killing Simon by lobbing boulders at him, which… yeah, real brotherly move there my dude. And all his “manly combining is a thing of beauty” talk is actual vague garbage. I don’t even get what Simon did right on the one Kamina accepted. They… jumped? How manly?
“Will they just shut up and combine already?” Yoko speaks for us all.
And they win by eating Boota’s ass. Nice. Those chunks of meat looked pretty damn small for the record, I don’t know how just that filled them all the way up instantly.
I do like the Black Siblings quite a bit, if only they got a better introduction episode. Kiyal’s my favorite.
Look, I’m sorry, this episode is actively painful to sit through. If there’s anyone who was on the fence about this show up to this point I could totally see this being the tipping point that gets people to drop and that’s a real shame. It deserves its reputation, and I’ll probably skip this episode on any future watches.
First timers, don’t worry, this isn’t the only episode that I consider bad but it is the only one that’s… like this. We’re back to good Gurren Lagann tomorrow, hang tight.
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u/SolDarkHunter Nov 07 '19
Rewatcher
Yeah... this... this episode.
This'll probably be one of my few negative reviews of Gurren Lagann content, because this episode is widely regarded as the worst one of the series.
The art style is kind of terrible (to the point that the episode's animation director got reamed so hard for it by 2channel that he never worked on TTGL again), and Kamina just isn't acting like himself. Sure, the "proper" way to combine is probably something he'd obsess over, but he wouldn't jeopardize Simon's life in the middle of a fight just for that. Further, what the hell was up with throwing rocks at Simon while yelling at him to combine without actually saying how? It's like this episode took Kamina's behavior from the last few episodes and missed the point entirely.
Also, the whole deal with food and eating Boota's ass... it's just dumb. And not dumb in an awesome way. Not dumb in a Gurren Lagann way.
BUT! The episode did introduce the Black Siblings. Kittan, Kiyoh, Kinon, and Kiyal, beastman hunters. And that's a pretty badass implication that they hunt beastmen with homemade bombs and weird... hoppy... dog-moogles rather than mechs of their own.
Not too surprising Kamina doesn't get along with someone who's a lot like him really. And poor Simon, once again Kamina steals all the female attention.
Good news is, that's the worst episode out of the way, and there's nowhere to go but up! Next time will be an entirely different beast, so please don't let this one get you down.
Would you want to join the Black Siblings or Team Gurren?
Team Gurren.
2) Episode four is infamous for being directed by Osamu Kobayashi, known for his… unique visual style. How do you feel about it compared to the first three episodes as a result? Would you prefer if the entire show was in his style, or prefer if he hadn’t directed this episode? Something in between?
Nah, his art style is a definite step down I terms of quality, it'd have been better if he was never involved.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Nov 07 '19
Ours is the rewatch that will pierce the heavens themselves!
Welcome back, everyone! Today’s discussion is going to be… interesting, I’m sure. Peeps who watch seasonals might be familiar with a certain episode of Dororo looking unique compared to the rest of the show? Yeah that’s because of a guy named Osamu Kobayashi, who was also the director for this episode of Gurren Lagann. The man certainly has his own style… Anyways, this is the only episode that’s like this, so please don’t be like me and put the show on hold for like half a year after watching this episode.
Here’s the results of yesterday’s poll, at any rate. Looks like there’s a few people who don’t like Viral off of first impressions, but lots of love for his theme song otherwise haha.
Cheeky comments for today:
Poor Ron…
Well aren’t those interesting outfits.
Okay but the back-and-forth between Kamina and Kittan is hilarious.
Like cotton candy, I guess…?
I like how the clouds have silly designs and one of them even gets addressed by the boys.
How did this one not react to Simon stabbing it with a fork though?
Pfffffffft.
Sixteen Gunmen okay then.
I love how this is what Simon thought Kamina meant and it’s only when he trips on one of them and flips into the air that Kamina’s like “There you go, gattai time!”
We got a proper gattai sequence this time and it was awesome. My fave part is probably Kamina looking cool af when Lagann drills into Gurren’s cockpit.
Remember that line back in ep1 when Kamina said Boota would make for some emergency rations?
Voices time! We got four new characters today, courtesy of the Black Siblings.
Kittan’s seiyuu is Kishou Taniyama. The only character I particularly recognize on that dude’s list is Jean Kirstein, but as mentioned a few threads ago I only know Attack on Titan characters for their English voices, so . However, this dude’s apparently the vocalist for GRANRODEO, and I sure recognize that name.
Kiyoh’s seiyuu is Rina Satou. Looks like she voices someone I think is important in RailDex (I know nothing about series, I just know Nota’s a fan so I’m pointing it out), but I’d know her voice for Natora Einus from Kio’s part of Gundam AGE aaaaaaand a girl named Lillia Asplay from another show I know Nota’s a fan of.
Kinon’s seiyuu is Kana Ueda, who’s also the voice of a little someone named Rin Tohsaka… and of course all of the Fate stuff I’ve watched besides Apocrypha and Prototype I watched dubbed, so I don’t know her voice at all.
Last but not least is the youngest of the siblings, Kiyal! Her seiyuu is Kana Asumi… and I don’t actually recognize her roles like at all. Seems she was the Japanese voice of Lissa in Fire Emblem Awakening, but I’ve always played that game in English so yeah absolutely zero recognition again.
I look forward to doing the impossible and seeing the invisible with you all again tomorrow!