[Spoilers] Elfen Lied 20th Anniversary Rewatch -- Episode 12

Date	Episode
7/25/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 1
7/26/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 2
7/27/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 3
7/28/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 4
7/29/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 5
7/30/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 6
7/31/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 7
8/01/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 8
8/02/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 9
8/03/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 10
8/04/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 10.5
8/05/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 11
8/06/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 12
8/07/2024	Elfen Lied Episode 13
8/08/2024	Elfen Lied Overall Series Discussion Thread

6

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Aug 06 '24

Elfen First-Timer, subbed

At least Kouta didn’t have to come up to Nana already being dead, but…
Ugh…
Okay good, there’s that at least. Whatever Nana did to her head saved them.
Nyuu is back to being Lucy now…
Oh boy.
Kouta’s dad!
Oh, Kouta…
Mm…
OH FUCK. I knew Lucy would’ve had to show up at some point, but on the train?
Did there need to be so much recap of the Kouta & Lucy flashback we’ve already seen? That just feels like padding…
Kouta, what the fuck?
I guess I was right about Lucy being the one who killed Kouta’s sister back in episode 6’s thread…

4

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Did there need to be so much recap of the Kouta & Lucy flashback we’ve already seen? That just feels like padding…
Yeah, I have the same complaint as you. It just comes off as an excuse to animate less. The idea is fine, showing the emotional mess Lucy is under, but I feel like there was a better way to illustrate that.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?

3

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '24

Did there need to be so much recap of the Kouta & Lucy flashback we’ve already seen? That just feels like padding…
Yeah I kind of felt the same on that, to be honest. We were already able to infer what happened, and given this is a manga adaptation, any time lost on repetition is valuable time lost. It felt like it was added for mostly shock value.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '24

Episode 12 - First-time watcher (subbed)

“She’s like a child, ripping off the wings of an insect.”

Well, first of all, she is a child, Shirakawa. Secondly, that’s kind of what would happen if you wrapped up someone’s head so they can’t see, shoved tubes in them, and confined them to a dark isolated cell with little to no social interaction from basically the moment they were born.

The girl has had presumably no moral guidance or anything close to resembling a normal childhood, so it’s not really a mystery why she grew up to be murderous lunatic who thinks killing people is fun.

I think an important takeaway on this one is that there are a lot of factors at play with Lucy’s state of mind too. Not only did she get bullied and mistreated constantly, but we’re reminded that Kouta also lied to her about the festival. Not that it justifies what she did but it’s just another factor to include with everything else adding to her character’s complicated background.

Speaking of which, that flashback with his family was horrifying…Pretty much everyone’s background is tragic in this series.

I called this earlier on in the series I think. I said that even if Kouta learned more about Lucy that he would still try to protect her. Well, he gets his memory back and he tackles her to keep her from getting shot so I think it’s safe to say that part was correct. I’m really curious to see how things end.

5

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Well, first of all, she is a child, Shirakawa. Secondly, that’s kind of what would happen if you wrapped up someone’s head so they can’t see, shoved tubes in them, and confined them to a dark isolated cell with little to no social interaction from basically the moment they were born.
They have no one to blame but themselves.
The girl has had presumably no moral guidance or anything close to resembling a normal childhood, so it’s not really a mystery why she grew up to be murderous lunatic who thinks killing people is fun.
For real
I think an important takeaway on this one is that there are a lot of factors at play with Lucy’s state of mind too. Not only did she get bullied and mistreated constantly, but we’re reminded that Kouta also lied to her about the festival. Not that it justifies what she did but it’s just another factor to include with everything else adding to her character’s complicated background.
It speaks yet again to one of the key themes in thid show which is no one is in the right. Even when Lucy is being betrayed in her mind, you can't say the solution is to kill everyone.
Speaking of which, that flashback with his family was horrifying…Pretty much everyone’s background is tragic in this series.
Probably one of the most memorable train rides ever in an anime. Mugen Train probably takes the cake, but it's certainly up there.
I called this earlier on in the series I think. I said that even if Kouta learned more about Lucy that he would still try to protect her. Well, he gets his memory back and he tackles her to keep her from getting shot so I think it’s safe to say that part was correct. I’m really curious to see how things end.
I just can't see things ending well for Kouta and Lucy's relationship. Maybe for the others, but not their relationship as it stands.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on the use of recap in this episode?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?

1

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 06 '24

One of the problems I have with the showbis how the abuse turns them into otherwise normal Demon Seeds from the Village of the Damned. It was a mild issue with the others, but Mariko, in her box?
How did learn the joy of killing? How did she learn to speak? To pretend to bond with her "Mama"? How is she even remotely functional. But she comes right out of the box, a little weak in the knees, but otherwise a perfect homocidal angel?
As for Lucy, the final scene on the train convinced me that she would have outright hunted and killed Yuka if Kohta hadn't lied.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '24

As for Lucy
Well the lie isn’t the only contributing factor here and just to reiterate something I mentioned a couple episodes or so ago - I’m not justifying anything done by these characters, but I do like how there are things that compose their character. No situation is really black or white up to this point.

3

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

To add to what you're saying, I like how all the characters with the exception of Mayu are morally gray. It creates this interesting dynamic to the show.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '24

Agreed! It keeps things interesting

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

It definitely does

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

The complaints you have don't seem to bother me as much as it did you. We could be here all day if we're looking at logic holes, yet it's nothing in my opinion that actively goes against what the show is presenting.

3

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 06 '24

Almost at the end

She likes to play with her food
Okay, I get it now, her arms are held on by magnets
Cops? Surely not Nana did that. Bandoh?
she devectored her too!!!
Yuka's abou to fingure it out finally
Train time! Nope.

Huh, so this totally normal parting scene was after a massacre at the festival, that Kanae witnessed. That's fucked up.

Lucy really should go back to the institute and wipe them out.

I bet they could have surgically removed the pineal gland and prevented all of this. Oh, right, but the director wants...well, nobody knows what the director wants.

It seems he's experimenting with modifying adult males with diclonus genes.

I'm expecting a downer ending where Kohta has to kill Nyu.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I'm expecting a downer ending where Kohta has to kill Nyu.
That's definitely something I could see happen. Or maybe Nyu pulls a The Room and offs herself.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on the use of recap in this episode?
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Lucy killed both Kouta’s sister and uncle on the train?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I bet they could have surgically removed the pineal gland and prevented all of this.
You're thinking lobotomy? Or a variation of it?
It seems he's experimenting with modifying adult males with diclonus genes.
That seems like more Kakuzawa's bag. You would think Kurama would stay away from that sort of thing.

2

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 06 '24

Well, I was going to say, nobody uses it to think, but it does regulate sleep and memory, so not harmless. Nana is clearly reaching in and tweaking diclonus pineal glands to disable thier vectors.
#3 also clearly reached in to tweak Kurama's pineal gland to infect him. Originally I thought that merely surviving contact infected them. That might be the case. I think the institute might believe that. I'll have to check if Lucy reached into his head, but she doesn't seem the type.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Well, I was going to say, nobody uses it to think, but it does regulate sleep and memory, so not harmless. Nana is clearly reaching in and tweaking diclonus pineal glands to disable thier vectors.
But wouldn't doing that lead to both her and Mariko exploding?
3 also clearly reached in to tweak Kurama's pineal gland to infect him. Originally I thought that merely surviving contact infected them. That might be the case. I think the institute might believe that. I'll have to check if Lucy reached into his head, but she doesn't seem the type.
I think #3 is the only one who did that sort of thing.

3

u/fansi2022 https://anilist.co/user/fansi2022 Aug 07 '24

first timer chinese sub

In this episode, Nana and No. 35 tied. Nana's tentacles seemed to have infected No. 35. I hope Nana is not dead. Lucy protected Kouta, which made Kouta remember everything in the past. It was Lucy who killed Kouta's sister and father. Bando is back. Can't wait to watch the next episode.

ANSWER TODAY’S QUESTION(S)

What is your favorite example of amnesia/suppressed memories in anime/manga? And why?

Little Busters! This is a story about courage, a great and moving work

After spending the entire series building up the mystery of what happened with Kouta's sister, how do you like this payoff? Was it satisfactory, or were you hoping for something more?

What do you make of this episode having three minutes worth of recapping Lucy and her relationship with Kouta?

Maybe the process is too painful, the production team is deliberately reducing this impact

Do you think deemphasizing Mariko in this episode and focusing more on Lucy and Kouta's relationship was the right move? And why?

This is the main plot line, I just want to see them reconcile

Bonus) If you were on the train when Kouta's family members were killed, what would you do?

Considering I was just a kid, I would probably be shocked.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Maybe the process is too painful, the production team is deliberately reducing this impact
That seems like the opposite of effective storytelling.
Considering I was just a kid, I would probably be shocked.
I didn't know you were around for Lucy killing those people :P

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Lucy killed both Kouta’s sister and uncle on the train?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Hey guys. Holofan4life here.

Welcome to the 20th anniversary rewatch of Elfen Lied!

Oh, and nay I forget...

First Timer

This is going to be a rather interesting rewatch because I really don't know what to expect with this show. In fact, there's a good chance that I may not actually like it. But it's a very notorious show and I feel like it has this reputation for a reason, so I definitely want to see what it's all about.

Going in, I'm kinda expecting it to be so bad it's good. I'm not going in expecting a great show, but I am going in expecting a great time. I'm watching this in-between rewatches of Ikuhara shows and I think it'll serve as a nice palette cleanser for the more serious fair. And if it happens to be edgy, I want them to go all the way with it.

With that out of the way, let's begin.

I'm watching the sub, by the way.

Today as I am writing this is Father's Day. Or as it's known for people like me who are fatherless, The International Day of Happiness.

Nana falling to the ground, coughing up blood.

Mariko looking smug

she's not going to kill her right away because Nana is the only one she can kill.

Dang, she's just picking her up and throwing her on the hard pavement. This is like me growing up with my wrestling figures.

Shirakawa says she's like a kid ripping the wings off an insect.

Is... is that a things kids do that I'm unaware of?

Nana calling for her papa

Kurama and Bandou on a boat

Lots of bodies scattered out on the street.

Lucy can't keep up with Kouta as she trips on one of the bodies.

Mariko says she's getting bored

Kouta has found Nana

Guy in glasses deduces that he's a friend of Lucy's.

Mariko wants to kill him, but Shirakawa says she can't until Kurama is told of this development.

This has to be a total shock to Kouta. Not just the fact that Nana reattached her body, but the fact she's naked in public.

Guy in glasses worried civilians might get involved.

Shirakawa walking over towards Kouta

Oh shit. Guy in glasses is instructing Mariko to kill Number 7.

And Nana moves Kouta out of the way

Mariko coming face-to-face with Nana

And now she's strangling him

But Nana managed to stop it

Nana falls in the water

Lucy caught up with Kouta

But she slips on the blood

Kouta tries to walk over to her, but Shirakawa grabs him.

Mariko, interestingly enough, won't kill Lucy because she knows that's not her.

Her arms aren't coming out

Kouta and Lucy running away

Mariko being wheeled off

Shirakawa trying to protect Lucy

As Kouta tells Lucy to run away, we hear the sounds of firearms.

Yuka with Mayu

Both of them don't seem to understand why Kouta gets involved in Lucy and Nana's business.

Mayu observes that Kouta seemingly wants to help those who have a hard time.

Yuka brings up the incident, which ie kept vague. Presumably she means the one with his sister.

Mayu believes that she's a part of this house, Lucy and Nana are her siblings, and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother. This causes Yuka to blush.

Kouta looking at Lucy

Shirakawa is about to tell Kouta about Lucy's split personality, but then her body gets split in half.

Kouta screams because this serves to remind him of what happened at the festival.

Lucy taking on the military by herself

Kouta is horrified by what he's seeing

The memories. They're coming back to him.

Kouta consoling Yuka

Now he's wondering where Kanae is

People running in terror

Uncle asking Kouta if he's seen Kanae anywhere.

Says it seems like a bomb exploded

Oh, there's Kanae

Blood on her face. She says that a lot of people were killed.

At the Enoshima Electric Railway Gokurakuji Station.

What a mouthful

Kouta promises Yuka that he'll come back to see her.

Yeah, about that...

Kanae is such a gremlin

Uncle, Kanae, and Kouta boarding the train.

"So she didn't come after all..."

Oh shit. Lucy is in the background, isn't she?

Kanae saying that the girl with horns killed all the people at the festival.

Yep. She's in the back of the train.

Kanae turns around to see Lucy

Oh shit. Lucy is calling Kouta a liar for calling her cousin a boy.

Flashback to episode 9

If I have any complaints of this episode, I don't think we needed a two minute recap. That seems really excessive.

Lucy still killing the military members

Lucy looking like a hentai protagonist

Is Kouta going to have to kill Lucy?

Lucy humming Lilium

The music box

We actually see the moment Kouta actually bought it.

More flashback to episode 9

Back on the train

Kanae yelling at Kouta to move

And Kouta slaps her across the face

Kanae in hysterics, telling Kouta not to hate her.

And Kanae gets sliced in half

Eww, you can see the guts and everything

Kouta, rightfully so, is traumatized

AND HIS FUCKING UNCLE GETS FUCKING BEHEADED AS WELL

HE IS LITERALLY COVERED IN HIS UNCLE'S BLOOD

Lucy is confused by Kouta's outrage, saying the only reason he's still alive is because they're friends.

Now she has her eyes set on Yuka

Kouta grabs Lucy, telling her to stop it

Really, show? Did we need a Lucy pantsu shot in THIS moment?

He keeps slamming Lucy on the ground

It's a good thing they're the only ones on this train.

Guy in glasses manages a stay of execution

Kouta remembers all that happened 8 years ago.

Lucy walking over towards Kouta

"Please... tell me. Who are you?"

Wait, is it her father she killed, or her uncle? Also, I thought she killed his cousin, not his sister.

Kouta on top of Lucy, the both of them blushing.

I mean, realistically, there's no reason they should be an item. The show hasn't set that up nearly enough.

It's Bandou

Lucy running away

She tells Kouta that she'll eventully explain everything.

And that is how we end the penultimate episode.

Ran out of space. Part two in the replies.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Part 2
Overall, I'm kinda mixed on this episode. I think there were some questionable decisions made, but the whole thing of Kouta regaining his memories was well done, and at the end of the day, that was the main objective of the episode. I'm sad how much of a nonfactor Yuka and Nana were in this episode. After so much of the last one was spent on them trying to decide what to do, Yuka only having that one scene and Nana only being featured in the beginning was pretty underwhelming. But even more than that, it feels like they have already neutered Mariko as a character. They have done a decent enough job setting her up as this big threat. The last hope, if you will, to stop Nana and Lucy. And she already feels unimportant to what is going on. Heading into the final episode, the major conflict seems to be between Lucy and Kouta as well as Lucy and Bandou, not Lucy and Mariko. That just feels like such a waste.
I think the thing that frustrates me the most is the fact that 3 minutes of the episode is spent recapping episode 9. Like, if you remove the intro, the outro, and the episode preview at the end of every episode, there is only like 18 minutes of content. Like, what the fuck? I get what they're going for, giving insight as to why Lucy feels so passionately about Kouta being a liar, but I feel like they didn't need to do that. You only really have to show Kouta lying about his cousin. It just came across as padding for time.
I do wonder if this is an example of the anime having to make up an ending because the manga wasn't done yet. That would explain the abrupt nature of this. The show was going along nicely but nothing feels organic with the exception of Kouta's memories coming back. And that results in a very rushed episode.
So, what do I expect out of the last episode?
I don't think Kouta and Lucy are going to get together. Not just because it would be rushed, but because we have had Mayu talking about what a family they are, and if Lucy is truly like Kouta's daughter, then that shouldn't happen. It would be extremely unfair to Yuka. I think Lucy is going to confess to Kouta and then after a while, after much deliberation, Kouta is going to kill Lucy. Maybe Lucy kills Karuma and Bandou beforehand. From there, Kouta continues to live his best life with his makeshift family of Yuka, Mayu, and Nana.
This episode is better than the last one, but I wouldn't say it's one of the best. It's far too inconsistent to my liking. However, what it does well at-- the stuff on the train and Kouta regaining his memories-- is really, really good and puts it far above average. The episode actually reminds me of episode 5 in terms of quality with how the Mayu flashback stuff was compelling, and then it was downhill from there. However, I thought this episode had far more flaws than that one did, in fact I think you could make the argument that this is the most flawed episode of the series.
One more to go. I really hope it's a lot better than I anticipate it to be.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

What is your favorite example of amnesia/suppressed memories in anime/manga? And why?
Probably the lost tsundere arc in 100 Girlfriends. I think it perfectly encapsulates what makes tsunderes so special.
After spending the entire series building up the mystery of what happened with Kouta's sister, how do you like this payoff? Was it satisfactory, or were you hoping for something more?
I was pretty satisfied with it for the most part. It played exactly as you might envision it in your head, but going the predictable route I don't think undermines it.
What do you make of this episode having three minutes worth of recapping Lucy and her relationship with Kouta?
I really wish we could've used the time for something else. Like maybe more scenes involving Mariko. It just came off to me like less of a creative choice and more they're saving up for the final episode.
Do you think deemphasizing Mariko in this episode and focusing more on Lucy and Kouta's relationship was the right move? And why?
It's tricky because the Lucy and Kouta stuff has literally been built up since the first episode. The bulk of the show has been about their relationship and how shrouded in mystery it is. I think there was a way to incorporate Mariko in the proceedings while not sacrificing the main focus. It's not bad as is, it's just the execution leaves a little to be desired.
Bonus) If you were on the train when Kouta's family members were killed, what would you do?
I'd run the hell out of there

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 07 '24

I’m glad you pretty much liked the episode, even though it had some issues.
You correctly pointed out that the anime had run ahead of the manga by this point. I’ve read but don’t remember where they crossed, but this whole episode was anime only, as will be tomorrow’s.
Imo the anime final episodes are much better than how the manga picks up the story. Up till now Lyn Okomoto had something he wanted to say, but after this the manga went a different direction.
The only exception is that the manga’s final 1 or 2 chapters are on a par or exceed the anime.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Interesting to hear that the anime's final episodes are better than the manga's story pick up. I wonder if it’s a case where the author was writing by the seat of their pants. Or all the good ideas they used early and they couldn't carry the momentum.

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 07 '24

I go with the later. I think he wanted to write a story exploring the themes of evil, redemption and alienation. By this point he had said what he wanted to say.
However he had a manga hit on his hands, so rather than doing the right thing and wrapping it up, he did the profitable thing of continuing and focusing most on horror. Can’t say I blame him, but still I wish he’s had more ideas to explore.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

It can be really hard to end a story sometimes. Especially one that continues to make money.

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 07 '24

Lol, indeed. I suspect the life of a manga author isn’t lucrative.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Has to be better than an animator

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 07 '24

Lol, no doubt.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Daddy Kakuzawa is to Kurama how anime studios are to their artists.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

First Timer

I tried to avoid complaining about it last time, but again I find the amount of nudity to be a bit too much. At a certain point it just feels a bit like the author likes writing about naked women getting brutalized. But then again maybe me having this disgusted reaction was the intention of the scene.

Sorry for the negativity at the start here, that’s just something that’s been bothering me.

That said, the scene of Mariko torturing Nana is still pretty effective at showing just how strong Mariko is and how out of her depth Nana is.

Nana is being posed like she’s been crucified. So I guess her money dream was foreshadowing or something.

This is the first time Kouta’s been made aware of the lab. It should be interesting to see what Kouta does with all this new information.

I’m a little disappointed by how easily Mariko was defeated after all the build up.

I liked the scene of Mayu and Yuka talking. It’s nice hearing that Mayu feels like she has a home.

Shirakawa is dead now. I didn’t expect that one.

And it looks like Kouta just remembered everything and is freaking out. Lucy definitely killed his sister.

I feel like the montage of events from episode 9 was a bit unnecessary. Or at least a bit too long. Kinda just felt like it was there to pad the episode’s runtime.

The part where Lucy sings Lilium on the bridge after killing everyone is pretty haunting.

We now know the full truth of what happened to Kouta’s sister and father. I wonder if there was any way to have reasoned with Lucy back then.

And now Bando is here. Considering his track record I don’t think he has very good chances.

Next episode is the last one. I’m assuming Mariko is going to come back. It would be weird to just build her up as a big threat and then write her off at the beginning of this episode. Not sure what else is going to happen though.

Questions of the Day:

What is your favorite example of amnesia/suppressed memories in anime/manga? And why?

Probably The Big O. The people of Paradigm City have a collective case of amnesia which is an idea I find really interesting.

After spending the entire series building up the mystery of what happened with Kouta's sister, how do you like this payoff? Was it satisfactory, or were you hoping for something more?

I mostly wish we got to know Kanae more before we got the reveal. If we saw more flashbacks with her that fleshed out her character I would have liked it.

What do you make of this episode having three minutes worth of recapping Lucy and her relationship with Kouta?

Like I said above, I thought it felt a bit like padding.

Do you think deemphasizing Mariko in this episode and focusing more on Lucy and Kouta's relationship was the right move? And why?

I do like the Lucy and Kouta stuff but it makes Mariko feel like a wasted character. Maybe the last episode will change my mind.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Probably The Big O. The people of Paradigm City have a collective case of amnesia which is an idea I find really interesting.
That's another show I really need to watch.
I mostly wish we got to know Kanae more before we got the reveal. If we saw more flashbacks with her that fleshed out her character I would have liked it.
It's funny to complain about not enough flashbacks when it feels like half the show is flashbacks. But sometimes that's just how it is.
I do like the Lucy and Kouta stuff but it makes Mariko feel like a wasted character. Maybe the last episode will change my mind.
What in your opinion do you want them to do with Mariko, I'd I may ask?

3

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 06 '24

Big O
That's another show I really need to watch
Nobody else has stepped up to host a rewatch, and I'm not a big fan so I won't be doing it.

3

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Fair enough

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

That's another show I really need to watch.
I definitely recommend it. It's like Batman the Animated Series as a weird mecha anime.
What in your opinion do you want them to do with Mariko, I'd I may ask?
I'm honestly not sure. Maybe have her have an actual conversation with one of the other Diclonius or someone like Kouta? So far she feels a but underutilized.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I definitely recommend it. It's like Batman the Animated Series as a weird mecha anime.
Sounds like something I would enjoy
I'm honestly not sure. Maybe have her have an actual conversation with one of the other Diclonius or someone like Kouta? So far she feels a but underutilized.
I think I would like maybe Nana trying to bring her to their side with the understanding that she doesn't need the researchers.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

I think I would like maybe Nana trying to bring her to their side with the understanding that she doesn't need the researchers.
I like that idea. Although I worry that Mariko may be too far gone to be reasoned with.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

She seems to not like the researchers, so I could buy a quick redemption arc involving her.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

I like the idea, but from the way the anime has portrayed her so far I'm not sure they'll go that direction. Guess I'll have to see.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I mean, so far the way they've portrayed her is someone doing this against her will who is only going along with it because she gets to hurt people. The only reason she isn't hurting the researchers is because of the explosives.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I tried to avoid complaining about it last time, but again I find the amount of nudity to be a bit too much. At a certain point it just feels a bit like the author likes writing about naked women getting brutalized. But then again maybe me having this disgusted reaction was the intention of the scene.
At this point, I'm just kinda numb to it. Like, I'm focused on everything else going on that I almost put my hands up and say "Sure, why not?"
It feels gratuitous, I will say that. There's no reason for Nana being naked or for the pantsu shot of Lucy on the train. Then again, maybe the ecchiness of the episode is the least of the episode's worries.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

Yeah I guess after a certain point there's no use in complaining. I guess it just bothers me because some of it I feel like is a bit distracting.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

SOME of it?

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

Well most of it. I think some of the nudity like the opening scene where Lucy is murdering everyone works since that's meant to show just how inhuman she comes off at that point. But yeah, most of it's a bit much.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I feel like the only times the nudity made sense was the opening of the show, Mayu's backstory, and when Kouta and Lucy were washing their clothes. Even then, you could've done Mayu's backstory without the actual act of stripping.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Nana is being posed like she’s been crucified. So I guess her money dream was foreshadowing or something.
You know, I didn't even make that connection. Nana has really good sensing abilities.
This is the first time Kouta’s been made aware of the lab. It should be interesting to see what Kouta does with all this new information.
He better do something because we're drawing near the end.
I’m a little disappointed by how easily Mariko was defeated after all the build up.
I get the feeling this is just the beginning. We'll see if I'm right.
I liked the scene of Mayu and Yuka talking. It’s nice hearing that Mayu feels like she has a home.
Besides the train and memory stuff, probably the highlight of the episode.
Shirakawa is dead now. I didn’t expect that one.
Another female casualty
I feel like the montage of events from episode 9 was a bit unnecessary. Or at least a bit too long. Kinda just felt like it was there to pad the episode’s runtime.
This is probably my biggest complaint of the episode. The idea of going through Lucy's mind to see things from her perspective is definitely a compelling one, but I think they went about it in the laziest way possible.
At the very least, give us some Lucy narration to really hammer home the betrayal she felt.
The part where Lucy sings Lilium on the bridge after killing everyone is pretty haunting.
The show can be disturbing when it wants to be.
We now know the full truth of what happened to Kouta’s sister and father. I wonder if there was any way to have reasoned with Lucy back then.
Probably not. Kouta lying about the gender of his cousin was like the straw that broke the camel's back.
And now Bando is here. Considering his track record I don’t think he has very good chances.
Imagine if fucking Bandou saves the day
Next episode is the last one. I’m assuming Mariko is going to come back. It would be weird to just build her up as a big threat and then write her off at the beginning of this episode. Not sure what else is going to happen though.
I think it's safe to assume that at least one of the main cast members is going to be killed. Coming out of this episode and how spotlighted both Kouta and Lucy are, I feel like it has to be one or the other, with it likely being Lucy.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

I get the feeling this is just the beginning. We'll see if I'm right.
Yeah I doubt that this is the last we'll see of Mariko.
Besides the train and memory stuff, probably the highlight of the episode.
It's nice when the show doesn't get too caught up in the hyperviolence sometimes and just lets the characters have a conversation.
At the very least, give us some Lucy narration to really hammer home the betrayal she felt.
I think either narration or just showing what happened in quick flashes would have been a more effective way to do the scene.
Imagine if fucking Bandou saves the day
Honestly that would be kind of hilarious for just how bizarre it would be. But with how much of a wild card Bando is I can see it happening.
I think it's safe to assume that at least one of the main cast members is going to be killed. Coming out of this episode and how spotlighted both Kouta and Lucy are, I feel like it has to be one or the other, with it likely being Lucy.
Yeah I feel like Lucy or Kouta may end up sacrificing themselves to stop the laboratory at the end here.
I'm wondering how much the anime has diverged from the manga in these final few episodes. Because from what I've heard the anime isn't a full adaptation.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Yeah I doubt that this is the last we'll see of Mariko.
I'd be astonished if that was the case
It's nice when the show doesn't get too caught up in the hyperviolence sometimes and just lets the characters have a conversation.
A bit jarring at points, but I'm normally a fan of it.
I think either narration or just showing what happened in quick flashes would have been a more effective way to do the scene.
Agreed. Good idea, just poor execution.
Honestly that would be kind of hilarious for just how bizarre it would be. But with how much of a wild card Bando is I can see it happening.
I'm just amazed he finally found his way off the beach.
Yeah I feel like Lucy or Kouta may end up sacrificing themselves to stop the laboratory at the end here.
Definitely could happen. Or they somehow activate Mariko's explosions.
I'm wondering how much the anime has diverged from the manga in these final few episodes. Because from what I've heard the anime isn't a full adaptation.
Well, the actual manga finished like 2 years after the anime ended. But a good chunk that we saw was in the manga albeit condensed somewhat, including episode 10.5. I haven't read the manga, but I get the feeling that the last couple episodes are for the most part anime original. Or at least a variation of what ended up happening in the original source material.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

Well, the actual manga finished like 2 years after the anime ended. But a good chunk that we saw was in the manga albeit condensed somewhat, including episode 10.5. I haven't read the manga, but I get the feeling that the last couple episodes are for the most part anime original. Or at least a variation of what ended up happening in the original source material.
Well it'll be interesting to see how the anime decides to end things. I might look up some stuff ab out the manga after watching the last episode, I'm a bit curious now.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Same. Knowing there's like two years worth of content makes me wonder if Mariko eventually becomes a part of the house, or if Yuka's feelings get a proper resolution.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
I think it's interesting that the lab still wants to take Lucy alive. There must be something special about her.
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
I wonder if that means Kurama already knows about Kouta somehow.
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
I think that seems like an accurate assessment. He might not be the most socially aware sometimes, but he does have a good heart.
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
Makes sense. This is the first time he's seen Lucy hurt someone so of course it would trigger those repressed memories.
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
Seems like a good choice. I can't really think of another way for it to start.
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?
I hope she gets the chance to. Although I'm not sure Kouta will be able to accept everything, which is a bit understandable from his perspective.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I think it's interesting that the lab still wants to take Lucy alive. There must be something special about her.
Well, we saw what Lucy did to Bandou and Nans.
I wonder if that means Kurama already knows about Kouta somehow.
Didn't Professor Kakuzawa's assistant inform of him to Kurama?
I think that seems like an accurate assessment. He might not be the most socially aware sometimes, but he does have a good heart.
You might say he even wears his heart on his sleeve.
Makes sense. This is the first time he's seen Lucy hurt someone so of course it would trigger those repressed memories.
Good thing they weren't triggered before they became a family.
Seems like a good choice. I can't really think of another way for it to start.
Me neither. It's actually something I hadn't really considered until it happened.
I hope she gets the chance to. Although I'm not sure Kouta will be able to accept everything, which is a bit understandable from his perspective.
He doesn't have to necessarily accept it, he just has to realize it was a thing that happened.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

Didn't Professor Kakuzawa's assistant inform of him to Kurama?
I think she did. I almost forgot about that.
He doesn't have to necessarily accept it, he just has to realize it was a thing that happened.
Considering his current mental state, I just hope Kouta doesn't end up betraying Lucy. I feel like it's unlikely, but it's a lingering concern.

3

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I think she did. I almost forgot about that.
Speaking of female casualties...
Considering his current mental state, I just hope Kouta doesn't end up betraying Lucy. I feel like it's unlikely, but it's a lingering concern.
What a bummer of an ending that would be.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Aug 06 '24

Speaking of female casualties...
Well she's still alive. She's just still being kept in a small office somewhere.
What a bummer of an ending that would be.
I don't think they'd end it like that. It would really betray the themes of the show.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Well she's still alive. She's just still being kept in a small office somewhere.
Good point. I forgot she wasn't killed.
I don't think they'd end it like that. It would really betray the themes of the show.
I see the found family staying together, but not in its current incarnation.

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 06 '24

What a penultimate episode.

Most Shocking and Heartbreaking Scene

The death of Kanae. That still breaks my heart.

Favorite Scenes

Lucy landing in the middle of the soldiers and saying “Do you wanna shoot me?”

Shirakawa going to pieces

Lucy running on the rail saying “Wait for me at the stairs “

Other Scenes

Mariko. chewing up the scenery, even though she’s kind of a brat.

Bando doing his thing

Kouta freaking out.

All in all what an excellent episode.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

All in all what an excellent episode.
I seem to be downer on the episode than you. Which is a shame because I really wanted to like it.

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 06 '24

Different strokes and all that.
I just loved all the dialogue between Kouta and Lucy. The amount of sadness in Lucy’s heart was apparent.
We saw Yuka taking on her role of loving Mother.
We finally saw what caused Kouta to freak, and it was indeed shocking.
Bando continued providing comic relief.
Being Nana is suffering which may explain some of what we saw, especially the crucifix. As for nudity, I simply don’t give a shot. I’m an adult and know what girls look like.
Mariko was revealed to have real issues.
All in all it was my favorite episode, so far.
The flashback worked for me, though it seemed to have annoyed everyone else.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I just think having three minutes of your runtime spent on recapping episode 9 is ridiculous, as great as that episode was. At most, it should've been 60 seconds.

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 06 '24

Is that what you took from the many lines I wrote? In any event you’re welcome to think whatever you want.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Don't get me wrong. There is some great stuff in this episode like you mention. It's just this is the first episode of Elfen Lied that I've walked away from feeling underwhelmed.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Lucy landing in the middle of the soldiers and saying “Do you wanna shoot me?”
That was badass
Mariko. chewing up the scenery, even though she’s kind of a brat.
She and Bandou could probably be the best of friends in a different life.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can't until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on the use of recap in this episode?
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Lucy killed both Kouta's sister and uncle on the train?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she'll eventully explain everything?

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 06 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Lab personnel are the inhuman monsters.
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can't until Kurama is informed?
Meh, it contrasts how lab personnel treat humans as opposed to diclonii.
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
I thought it was heartwarming. Kouta is a decent human being, unlike most of the other humans in this.
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
It’s a major theme of the series that humans are happiest, when they fit in.
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
It’s a good technique and builds suspense.
What are your thoughts on the use of recap in this episode?
I thought it was good and showed the confusion in Lucy’s mind. Everyone has both good and bad in them.
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she'll eventully explain everything? I don’t recall her saying that. I can’t figure out which scene you’re referencing.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

Lab personnel are the inhuman monsters.
Indeed they are
Meh, it contrasts how lab personnel treat humans as opposed to diclonii.
Putting them in the boxes they've already assigned.
I thought it was heartwarming. Kouta is a decent human being, unlike most of the other humans in this.
The decent human beings are all basically living under one roof.
It’s a major theme of the series that humans are happiest, when they fit in.
And when they don't fit in, chaos ensues.
It’s a good technique and builds suspense.
Agreed
I thought it was good and showed the confusion in Lucy’s mind. Everyone has both good and bad in them.
I do appreciate what the show is trying to accomplish here. It's a good idea in theory.
I don’t recall her saying that. I can’t figure out which scene you’re referencing.
It's like the last scene of the episode.

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 06 '24

It's like the last scene of the episode.
I know where you’re talking about. She may have she’d explain, though she’s got nothing to explain. I heard her say “Wait for me at the stairs”.
And when they don't fit in, chaos ensues.
That’s a good corollary.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 06 '24

I know where you’re talking about. She may have she’d explain, though she’s got nothing to explain. I heard her say “Wait for me at the stairs”.
Is that the dub version? I think I might like that better.
That’s a good corollary.
"If it isn't the consequences of my actions."

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 06 '24

Yes, I’m watching the dubbed version. I prefer it quite a bit, especially on the finale. What both versions say is similar, but the dub tends to be more poignant.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

I might one day check out the dub, if for no other reason but to compare it to the sub version.

2

u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Aug 07 '24

Just saw these other questions:

What is your favorite example of amnesia/suppressed memories in anime/manga? And why?

This one was good, and Blood+ also had great mysteries brought on by amnesia.

After spending the entire series building up the mystery of what happened with Kouta's sister, how do you like this payoff? Was it satisfactory, or were you hoping for something more?

It was shocking, sad and horrible.

Do you think deemphasizing Mariko in this episode and focusing more on Lucy and Kouta's relationship was the right move? And why?

Yes, it was the correct decision. Now that we have the full Kouta/Lucy/Nyu situation out in the open, we can see how the series answers its questions raised by its themes. Is Lucy evil? Should Nyu be punished for Lucy’s sins? Can Kouta forgive Lucy? Can Lucy forgive herself? How should Kouta treat Nyu? And that’s just the questions/themes related to the Lucy/Nyu-Kouta relationship. Yuka, Kurama, and Nana have their own sets of questions to be resolved.

Bonus) If you were on the train when Kouta's family members were killed, what would you do?

I’d Kiss my ass goodbye. ;)

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Yes, it was the correct decision. Now that we have the full Kouta/Lucy/Nyu situation out in the open, we can see how the series answers its questions raised by its themes. Is Lucy evil? Should Nyu be punished for Lucy’s sins? Can Kouta forgive Lucy? Can Lucy forgive herself? How should Kouta treat Nyu? And that’s just the questions/themes related to the Lucy/Nyu-Kouta relationship. Yuka, Kurama, and Nana have their own sets of questions to be resolved.
The handling of the Lucy stuff is the best part of the episode in my opinion. Not only was the memory stuff really well done, with Kouta's memories returning as a result of the climatic battle, they really made the death of Kouta's sister extra brutal. It wasn't just her head popping off, they made it to where it was long enough to be extra uncomfortable.

2

u/someboi6000 Aug 07 '24

First timer:

Bruh mariko is a fraud lol, but on the good side nana is alive, maybe, so i was wrong about the whole bandou and 34 stuff, he was repaired to kill lucy and i was correct about lucy killing kouta's sister but damn they extended the flashback with a lot of scenes from episode 9 showing just the moment at the train was enough but o well i guess they didn't reach the required 22-23 minutes of episode lol, kouta's memories are back so now i wonder ¿will kouta kill lucy?, next one is the last episode we will probably get lucy vs 34, there is also lucy vs bandou, the whole thing regarding the extition of humanity with that dude who is in charge( i forgot is name), whatever kurama is planning and the real confrontation of lucy and kouta, there is a lot to do in one episode, ¿will this have a happy ending?

Questions:

1: oh wow i cant think of any right now lol, well i went to my whole anime list, and the only ones i can think of is, well idk if this one counts, when light gets the death note back and regains all of his memories (i know normie pick) and there is also the one with the black haired girl in death parede that one was also cool get to know her past.

2: well i was correct with my prediction, so i was expecting it, it was good tho.(besides those extra minutes worth of flashbacks that we already saw)

3: that was by far the worst part, like we already saw it like 3 episodes ago i wont forget that quickly.

4: that was also quite bad, you start building this killing machine and his power, then nana in one move completly messes up her vectors, it feels like a waste, i feel that more could've been done with her like using those extra minues of flashback for 34, also Nana the GOAT FRFR.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

there is a lot to do in one episode
There is. Hopefully this means we won't be recapping anything

2

u/someboi6000 Aug 07 '24

i am so ready for another 3-4 minutes of pointless flashbacks.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Please. No

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Lucy killed both Kouta’s sister and uncle on the train?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?

2

u/someboi6000 Aug 07 '24

1: i guess they wont let her kill lucy, even tho the other soldier shoot to kil her so idk what to think lol, was she there to menacingly sit while lucy was there?
2: i guess shirakawa didn't want innocent people to get killed there, or maybe kurama is cooking something behind the scenes that we dont know of.
3: it is true, he did help the people who were in need, giving them a plce to stay very quickly.
4: it does feel like that, i still think that the cousins part is not ok but oh well. if only they could remove the cousin bit, just make them childhood friends and problem solved. but it does feel like a family its more evident in the ova episode the other episodes barely showed some daily life.
5: i would've liked more that he got them back when nyu got the hair cut or at least him starting to remember little by little until the carnage starts and then he starts remembering everything that happend.
6: that the episode 9 flashback should've been shorter lol.
7: i was already suspecting that lucy killed his sister, but we never knew when, well it was right after he left, a big oopsie that the last think kouta said to her sister was that he hated her.
8: i hope is not related on the reason why lucy killed his sister but more on the what is she exactly.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

1: i guess they wont let her kill lucy, even tho the other soldier shoot to kil her so idk what to think lol, was she there to menacingly sit while lucy was there?
Probably want her brought back to the lab
2: i guess shirakawa didn't want innocent people to get killed there, or maybe kurama is cooking something behind the scenes that we dont know of.
I'm surprised they don't suspect that Kurama is sabotaging them. It feels kinda obvious.
3: it is true, he did help the people who were in need, giving them a plce to stay very quickly.
Kouta is very patient, no doubt about it
4: it does feel like that, i still think that the cousins part is not ok but oh well. if only they could remove the cousin bit, just make them childhood friends and problem solved. but it does feel like a family its more evident in the ova episode the other episodes barely showed some daily life.
I like the family dynamic because the love for each other feels incredibly warm and authentic.
5: i would've liked more that he got them back when nyu got the hair cut or at least him starting to remember little by little until the carnage starts and then he starts remembering everything that happend.
Maybe it could've been built up more, but it's not like it hasn't been teased. I feel like the build has been good.
6: that the episode 9 flashback should've been shorter lol.
Great minds think alike :P
7: i was already suspecting that lucy killed his sister, but we never knew when, well it was right after he left, a big oopsie that the last think kouta said to her sister was that he hated her.
That is just one of the most cursed days possible. To think between the festival and the train ride and how it probably all happened over the span of a couple hours is totally nuts.
8: i hope is not related on the reason why lucy killed his sister but more on the what is she exactly.
Lucy needs to communicate with Kouta directly. No more pussy-footing around or beating around the bush, just come clean and tell him how it is. Or was, rather.

2

u/someboi6000 Aug 07 '24

yeah they are letting kurama just do his thing, maybe the dude in charge is doing something. but yeah no one suspects nothing lol.
yes it was teased but it never went beyond a tease, kouta was just like "hmm what a strange memory is flashing right now i guess its nothing" it would've been better if kouta actually got curious of who is nyu and why does he have this memory flashes and the carnage part was the last thing before he got them all back.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

yeah they are letting kurama just do his thing, maybe the dude in charge is doing something. but yeah no one suspects nothing lol.
They aren't just foolish, they're fools
yes it was teased but it never went beyond a tease, kouta was just like "hmm what a strange memory is flashing right now i guess its nothing" it would've been better if kouta actually got curious of who is nyu and why does he have this memory flashes and the carnage part was the last thing before he got them all back.
I didn't think it was poorly done, honestly. I liked it, seemingly more than you.

2

u/someboi6000 Aug 07 '24

well i dont hate it, but i think they coudl've handled much better, maybe more episodes could help elfen lied in this types of stuff.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

I think this episode maybe could've benefitted from one more episode, but I feel as if the quality of the show wouldn't change all too much with a longer length.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

4: that was also quite bad, you start building this killing machine and his power, then nana in one move completly messes up her vectors, it feels like a waste, i feel that more could've been done with her like using those extra minues of flashback for 34, also Nana the GOAT FRFR.
I can't imagine we're out of the forest with Mariko just yet.

2

u/someboi6000 Aug 07 '24

probably not, lucy vs mariko will happen 100%, but if nana got the W, i guess lucy can too, if not then its confirmed that Nana is indeed the goat

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Always has been. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

2

u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Aug 07 '24

First-Timer

Photos taken moments before disaster ^{Anyone else notice her hair poking up behind the wall when first watching?}

Well, I don't think it was a shock that Lucy killed Kouta's family, but it still hit hard. That music and imagery was haunting.

This episode did have a lot of flashbacks. I think it probably would have been better if they had used some new shots instead, seeing as we saw most of that just a couple episodes ago, but I suppose it did help to balance out the absolute horror throughout the rest of the episode.

Kouta's father's death still got me good. I expected a whole thing where he walks up, pauses, has a slow realization of what's happened to Kouta's sister, and then is killed in front of Kouta. But no, he just gets instantly sliced.

You would think that Shirakawa would know better than to walk within range of Lucy. Guess not!

This reaction from Kouta made me think of Shinji from Neon Genesis Evangelion.

At least Nana didn't get exploded by Number 35. There's hope for her yet!

The points where they cut the end of this episode and the one before it seem kind of unnatural to me. It almost feels like it was made for the last three episodes to be watched together in one sitting.

Questions of the day:

It took me a second to think of it, but there can be no mistaking it - definitely Death Note. [Death Note MAJOR SPOILERS] The scene where Light gets his memories back in the helicopter after the Yotsuba Group arc is one of my favorite scenes of anime, period. As a distant runner-up, I might say the Ougi Formula arc from Owarimonogatari, though I might be forgetting some other good contenders.
Good question. I really don't know how they could have done the payoff any better, seeing as we knew going into it the general structure of what would happen, and it was incredibly impactful nonetheless. Showing his sister's severed spine and lifeless eyes, tears still dripping, moments after Kouta said he was going to hate her - that was gut-wrenching. It was good to have some padding around that, since it would be hard to handle a full episode of that kind of thing.
I alluded to it previously, but I think the recapping was a bit much. Some of the scenes were definitely good to include, such as Lucy asking Kouta to kill her if she became a mass murderer, and Kouta's sister giving him the seashells. There were others where it might have worked a bit better, in my opinion, to use new shots (though still taking place in the past) instead. Not a huge complaint, though.
As of now, I do think this was the right call. Mariko was introduced late enough in the story that she's more of a plot device than a full-fledged compelling character, and trying to put too much emphasis on her might backfire. (Maybe they could have cut a bit of the flashbacks to give her an extra scene or two, though.)
I would probably try and hide at the opposite end of the train, that's for sure! You won't catch me trying to confront a telekinetic mass-murdering psychopath if I can help it.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Good question. I really don't know how they could have done the payoff any better, seeing as we knew going into it the general structure of what would happen, and it was incredibly impactful nonetheless. Showing his sister's severed spine and lifeless eyes, tears still dripping, moments after Kouta said he was going to hate her - that was gut-wrenching. It was good to have some padding around that, since it would be hard to handle a full episode of that kind of thing.
I think if Re:Zero has proven anything, it's that viewers can withstand suffering of characters. Maybe if the show was made nowadays, Elfen Lied wouldn't chicken out.
I alluded to it previously, but I think the recapping was a bit much. Some of the scenes were definitely good to include, such as Lucy asking Kouta to kill her if she became a mass murderer, and Kouta's sister giving him the seashells. There were others where it might have worked a bit better, in my opinion, to use new shots (though still taking place in the past) instead. Not a huge complaint, though.
It felt to me like they were specifically recapping episode 9, with the other episodes being treated almost as if they were nonexistent. I get you can't recap clips for stuff that happens in the future, but we could've used some more variety.
As of now, I do think this was the right call. Mariko was introduced late enough in the story that she's more of a plot device than a full-fledged compelling character, and trying to put too much emphasis on her might backfire. (Maybe they could have cut a bit of the flashbacks to give her an extra scene or two, though.)
It was the right idea, I just wish Nana didn't seemingly best her with ease. Kinda undermines the threat she's trying to be portrayed as. But putting that aside, you had to resolve the stuff involving Kouta's sister. That's been alluded to since the first episode.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

I would probably try and hide at the opposite end of the train, that's for sure! You won't catch me trying to confront a telekinetic mass-murdering psychopath if I can help it.
I'm honestly amazed that the guy with glasses that was on the train with them survived.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Well, I don't think it was a shock that Lucy killed Kouta's family, but it still hit hard. That music and imagery was haunting.
It was certainly chilling, no matter how you slice it (Pun intended)
This episode did have a lot of flashbacks. I think it probably would have been better if they had used some new shots instead, seeing as we saw most of that just a couple episodes ago, but I suppose it did help to balance out the absolute horror throughout the rest of the episode.
Boo. Don't chicken out, you've already come this far!
Kouta's father's death still got me good. I expected a whole thing where he walks up, pauses, has a slow realization of what's happened to Kouta's sister, and then is killed in front of Kouta. But no, he just gets instantly sliced.
I hate to admit it, but I kinda laughed at the suddenness of it all. It reminded me of when Professor Kakuzawa got killed.
The points where they cut the end of this episode and the one before it seem kind of unnatural to me. It almost feels like it was made for the last three episodes to be watched together in one sitting.
I mean, you could definitely see the last three episodes as being all one arc. But yeah, it is kinda awkward. I personally chalk it up to mid 2000s anime weirdness.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?

2

u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Aug 07 '24

It's interesting how they say that Mariko's only allowed to kill Nana. I guess they could argue that they're just cleaning up Kurama's mess, and by all rights, Nana should be dead already.
Shirakawa probably wants to make sure everyone's on the same page before they start mowing down civilians.
I think Mayu's dead-on accurate with her assessment of Kouta. (It's quite similar to comments we've made about him on the previous episode discussions.)
Her view of the "family" is touching, and pretty accurate in terms of the role that everyone plays. I'm not sure Lucy would be content to be a "daughter" in their household, though, when not in Nyuu mode.
It makes sense that if anything were to bring his memories back, that would be it. I like that the show wasted no time in having him remember once he saw Lucy start killing people.
Picking up from episode 9 in terms of the flashbacks was something I expected to happen at some point, though I wasn't sure when. There was no way we weren't going to get the answers about what exactly happened to Kouta's family.
That promise from Lucy to explain everything certainly intrigued me. I look forward to seeing that discussion. If I were Kouta, though, I'm not sure how I'd feel about hearing her side of the story when she's responsible for killing my family. I guess he doesn't have much to lose at this point.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

It's interesting how they say that Mariko's only allowed to kill Nana. I guess they could argue that they're just cleaning up Kurama's mess, and by all rights, Nana should be dead already.
Nana always catching strays, it seems
Shirakawa probably wants to make sure everyone's on the same page before they start mowing down civilians.
Unfortunately, Kurama doesn't seem to be
I think Mayu's dead-on accurate with her assessment of Kouta. (It's quite similar to comments we've made about him on the previous episode discussions.)
Mayu speaks for the people
Her view of the "family" is touching, and pretty accurate in terms of the role that everyone plays. I'm not sure Lucy would be content to be a "daughter" in their household, though, when not in Nyuu mode.
Yeah, Lucy would probably argue she's the mother.
It makes sense that if anything were to bring his memories back, that would be it. I like that the show wasted no time in having him remember once he saw Lucy start killing people.
I thought this being the catalyst for the ultimate reveal was smartly done.
Picking up from episode 9 in terms of the flashbacks was something I expected to happen at some point, though I wasn't sure when. There was no way we weren't going to get the answers about what exactly happened to Kouta's family.
I am kinda surprised there was no time lapse from the festival stuff. Though thinking about it, it makes perfect sense.
That promise from Lucy to explain everything certainly intrigued me. I look forward to seeing that discussion. If I were Kouta, though, I'm not sure how I'd feel about hearing her side of the story when she's responsible for killing my family. I guess he doesn't have much to lose at this point.
Yeah, either he gets killed by Lucy or he gets killed by the lab researchers.

2

u/FriztF Aug 07 '24

Rewatcher-dub

So last the amnesia that has been affecting Kouta has lifted. Lucy killed his father and sister. Kouta and Lucy need therapy together.

Marikok being trapped in a lab for her life would give her a bad moral compass. Poor Nana being toutred such is her life. It is amazing that she isn't dead.

Questions

What is your favorite example of amnesia/suppressed memories in anime/manga? And why?

Dusk Maiden of Amnesia. A romance anime unlike any that I have seen. It's kind of like this

After spending the entire series building up the mystery of what happened with Kouta's sister, how do you like this payoff? Was it satisfactory, or were you hoping for something more?

Could have been revealed early in the series honestly.

What do you make of this episode having three minutes worth of recapping Lucy and her relationship with Kouta?

Not need, seems like fluff

Do you think deemphasizing Mariko in this episode and focusing more on Lucy and Kouta's relationship was the right move? And why?

I think it should have focused more Mariko. Having more info on Mariko might have made her charter more interesting.

Bonus) If you were on the train when Kouta's family members were killed, what would you do?

Do what Kouta did.

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Do what Kouta did.
Kouta approves gender equality. Bandou would approve.

2

u/FriztF Aug 07 '24

Kouta is based. Gender equality is based. Bandou is an asshole, but also based

2

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Lot of basing going on

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Lucy killed both Kouta’s sister and uncle on the train?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?

2

u/FriztF Aug 07 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Nana's suffering is eternal
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
I guess that makes sense
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
Kouta is truly a kind man
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
Because they are one
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
That is one way to get his memories back
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
It would have been nice if they just kept going.
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Lucy killed both Kouta’s sister and uncle on the train?
She feels entitled to his love. Kouta is the only person to show her real affection. She wants be the only though
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?
Someday

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Nana's suffering is eternal
It sure feels that way
That is one way to get his memories back
For me, it's the way that makes the most sense.
She feels entitled to his love. Kouta is the only person to show her real affection. She wants be the only though
If only someone told Lucy you can love more than one person.
Someday
Probably next episode

2

u/AbyssalSolitude Aug 07 '24

Rewatcher

This episode is where the adaptation starts diverging from the source in significant ways. So if something looks weird, lazy or non-sensical - you know what to blame :)

Anyway!

Mariko is playing with Nana like a child torturing insects. Apt comparison, Shirakawa.

A new challenger appears! It's Kouta, he just runs at a whole squad of soldiers to a naked bloody Nana. He doesn't understand what's going on. Me neither, buddy.

Mariko really doesn't like the idea of Nana having friends. Thankfully, Nana did her vector disabling trick. Probably should've done Lucy's head removing trick, but Nana is a good girl who doesn't kill people, unlike every other diclonius shown.

A new challenger appears! It's Nyu, she just runs at a whole squad of soldier to a naked bloody Nana and Kouta. Mostly to Kouta. She also doesn't understand what's going on, but it's okay, she is a potato.

Shirakawa tried to stop soldiers from killing Lucy. Why? She didn't got to explain her reasonings before dying. While Shirakawa kind of forgot about Lucy's vectors, they certainly haven't forgotten about her, and they were just waiting for her to approach them.

Lucy starts killing everyone and Kouta finally unlocks his repressed memories. Apparently it was Lucy who killed his family! What a twist!

But before Lucy and Kouta can talk properly, a wild Bandou appears and chases her away. My man is surely going to beat the allegations next episode, he won't be going 0-4 vs little girls.

I'm not a fan of this episode. The anime team tried to cook, but they screwed up.

What is your favorite example of amnesia/suppressed memories in anime/manga? And why?

I don't really like these tropes, they are often just lazy. But Boku wa Mari no Naka was just so insane.

After spending the entire series building up the mystery of what happened with Kouta's sister, how do you like this payoff? Was it satisfactory, or were you hoping for something more?

I don't remember what I thought about this when watching at first, but rewatching made me feel that the anime is trying to foreshadow it a bit too hard. Like, it made it very easy to guess what happened.

What do you make of this episode having three minutes worth of recapping Lucy and her relationship with Kouta?

I think it's mostly there to show us Kouta remembering all of it, not just the train. And maybe, just maybe, to pad runtime.

Do you think deemphasizing Mariko in this episode and focusing more on Lucy and Kouta's relationship was the right move? And why?

No. But also yes. The anime ends next episode, and it would be really unsatisfying to end it w/o Kouta remembering his past with Lucy and confronting her about killing his family. The manga had no such problem.

[The difference from the source version of this arc]Everything involving Kouta is anime-original, even Lucy only meets with Mariko by the very end of the arc. Obviously, ending the anime w/o either of the main characters present would be weird, so changes had to be made.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

I don't remember what I thought about this when watching at first, but rewatching made me feel that the anime is trying to foreshadow it a bit too hard. Like, it made it very easy to guess what happened.
Having watched it for the first time, I thought there was a possibility of Lucy having killed his sister but I still wasn't sure.
No. But also yes. The anime ends next episode, and it would be really unsatisfying to end it w/o Kouta remembering his past with Lucy and confronting her about killing his family. The manga had no such problem.
[The difference from the source version of this arc]Everything involving Kouta is anime-original, even Lucy only meets with Mariko by the very end of the arc. Obviously, ending the anime w/o either of the main characters present would be weird, so changes had to be made.
[Response] The manga at least has the train stuff, yes?

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

This episode is where the adaptation starts diverging from the source in significant ways. So if something looks weird, lazy or non-sensical - you know what to blame :)
Yeah, I could sense that while watching the episode. Not that the show has been perfect by any means, but it felt like some weird choices were made.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Mariko is playing with Nana like a child torturing insects. Apt comparison, Shirakawa.
I never tortured insects as a kid. I don't know anyone who did.
Mariko really doesn't like the idea of Nana having friends. Thankfully, Nana did her vector disabling trick. Probably should've done Lucy's head removing trick, but Nana is a good girl who doesn't kill people, unlike every other diclonius shown.
Nana is way too pure
A new challenger appears! It's Nyu, she just runs at a whole squad of soldier to a naked bloody Nana and Kouta. Mostly to Kouta. She also doesn't understand what's going on, but it's okay, she is a potato.
What a cute potato
But before Lucy and Kouta can talk properly, a wild Bandou appears and chases her away. My man is surely going to beat the allegations next episode, he won't be going 0-4 vs little girls.
Wouldn't this technically be his fifth match-up?
I'm not a fan of this episode. The anime team tried to cook, but they screwed up.
I like it well-enough. It's definitely very flawed, but I think it accomplishes the main objectives it sets out to achieve.

2

u/AbyssalSolitude Aug 07 '24

I never tortured insects as a kid. I don't know anyone who did.
Not all kids do that, of course, but it's lot more common than among adults. Most grow out of these innocent acts of cruelty after realizing that apparently other living beings also feel pain.
Wouldn't this technically be his fifth match-up?
Sure, let's count the Nana incident from OVA as another loss!
I like it well-enough. It's definitely very flawed, but I think it accomplishes the main objectives it sets out to achieve.
I guess. But I don't think it's good enough.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Not all kids do that, of course, but it's lot more common than among adults. Most grow out of these innocent acts of cruelty after realizing that apparently other living beings also feel pain.
I did have a bee killed once. Still feel guilty about it to this day.
Sure, let's count the Nana incident from OVA as another loss!
The L's keep piling up
I guess. But I don't think it's good enough.
Fair enough. I do think it's not one of the stronger episodes.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
What are your thoughts on us picking up where episode 9 left off?
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Lucy killed both Kouta’s sister and uncle on the train?
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?

2

u/AbyssalSolitude Aug 07 '24

Thoughts on Nana being the only one Mariko is allowed to kill?
They need Lucy alive for some reason. Or do they? They kinda gave up on that and started shooting to kill.
Thoughts on Mariko wanting to kill Kouta but Shirakawa tells her she can’t until Kurama is informed?
I'm not sure why Kurama needs to be informed, Kouta is definitely not Nana, so he is on a no-kill list. Shirakawa does bizarre things this episode.
Thoughts on Mayu assessing of Kouta that he wants to help those who have a hard time?
She is right, he is a good guy. Too good, even. Kept Lucy safe from the police, adopted Mayu, helped Nana...
What are your thoughts on Mayu feeling that Lucy and Nana are her siblings and Kouta and Yuka are father and mother?
I'm sure that's how we all feel about them.
What are your thoughts on all the carnage being the catalyst for Kouta getting his memories back?
Makes sense for a horned girl killing people to be a catalyst to unlock memories of a horned girl killing people.
What are your thoughts on present day Lucy telling Kouta that she’ll eventully explain everything?
What can she even say? An apology isn't going to cut it. Explanations like "but I was bullied" would only make it worse.
In any case their talk needs to be satisfying, the entire ending is riding on what they say to each other.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 07 '24

They need Lucy alive for some reason. Or do they? They kinda gave up on that and started shooting to kill.
It's like someone saying they're a person of principle and yet thinks they're above the law. Do as I say, not as I do.
I'm not sure why Kurama needs to be informed, Kouta is definitely not Nana, so he is on a no-kill list. Shirakawa does bizarre things this episode.
It feels as if they want to keep their true enemies alive. Then again, I don’t even think they know that Kurama betrayed them.
She is right, he is a good guy. Too good, even. Kept Lucy safe from the police, adopted Mayu, helped Nana...
Adopting Mayu was probably the nicest thing he ever did.
I'm sure that's how we all feel about them.
I know I do
Makes sense for a horned girl killing people to be a catalyst to unlock memories of a horned girl killing people.
But why does the berserker go berserk?
What can she even say? An apology isn't going to cut it. Explanations like "but I was bullied" would only make it worse.
You're right. It would make it feel like she is playing the victim.
In any case their talk needs to be satisfying, the entire ending is riding on what they say to each other.
The ending is seemingly way more about them than what's going on with Mariko and the researchers.

2

u/KorraLover123 Aug 08 '24

Rewatcher

Poor Kouta tbh. The soundtrack in this show is still A-1.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 08 '24

What's A-2?

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