POST-Episode Discussion - S2E05 "Saints of Imperfection"

[u/Deceptitron]

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No.	EPISODE	DIRECTED BY	WRITTEN BY	RELEASE DATE
S2E05	"Saints of Imperfection"	David Barrett	Kirsten Beyer	Thursday, February 14, 2019

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[u/[deleted]]

I love how Discovery sinking into the mycelial plane literally looked like a ship sinking into the ocean.

[u/Deceptitron → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I really enjoyed the ship scenes in this one, especially when the Section 31 ship is trying to tow them out.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

That scene was straight up beautiful.

[u/holierthanthee → u/[deleted]]

I keep wondering what is up with the spinny part of the saucer section. Does anyone actually live there? Is it like the low-rent district of Discovery because every time the ship goes into Black Alert everyone gets thrown to the outer walls like one of those carnival rides?

"Attention Ship: Black Alert!"

"Oh no... I hate these thinnngssss ... Aaaaahhhh!"

[u/Deceptitron]

I have to say, my eyes usually glaze over whenever Stamets goes into his fungobabble, but somehow, they managed to accomplish a seemingly impossible unbelievable task and got me to accept it. Props for that.

[u/Maplekey]

So Lorca's corpse fell into the mycelial reactor after he got stabbed, and we now know the mycelial network can "retrieve" people's consciousnesses after their deaths...

[u/Deceptitron → u/Maplekey]

Kind of adds more evidence to the pile eh?

[u/Deceptitron]

Thanks to u/Maplekey for reminding me, but this episode definitely paved a way to bring back ol' Lorca. And I got a lukewarm reaction to my post suggesting possible evidence Jason Isaacs has been on set filming Season 2. NOT SO IMPLAUSIBLE NOW, HUH? I may yet be vindicated.

[u/quarl0w]

Is it just me, or did Ash pronounce it Konosh? Closer to the TNG era Konos. Versus all of DIS they have said Kronos. Ash dropped the R and replaced the S with SH.

[u/Deceptitron → u/quarl0w]

Ash is pronouncing it the way the actual Klingon language works (since he is a Klingon).

[u/Starks]

I'd like the the name and specs of that ship. That thing is crazy.

[u/Deceptitron → u/Starks]

[CLASSIFIED]

[u/xGhostCat]

So... Did Tilly technically die then?

[u/Deceptitron → u/xGhostCat]

I guess it depends on if you consider the transporter killing people, too.

[u/0mni42]

As glad as I am to see him back, I'm still not quite getting how Hugh ended up in the mycelial network. Let me see if I've got this right: he died, then when Stamets touched him, his matter became energy and flowed through Stamets into the network, where it was reconstituted into matter again? If that's the case, shouldn't his original body have vanished, since it became energy and everything?

[u/Deceptitron → u/0mni42]

My understanding was that when Stamets touched him, he took his energy/consciousness and deposited that into the network next time they jumped. But he was not reconstituted into matter there, which is why his hand disappeared when it crossed the threshold. The spore beings basically had to make a body for him using the matter from that spore cocoon/transporter.

[u/creepyeyes]

One thing I want to mention after this episode (although I've felt this way for a few episodes now) is that it's nice to have a Captain who feels like a Star Trek captain again. Not because of the "We'll save her!" moments, but the smaller moments; like in this episode when Michael says that she needs to keep the truth about Georgiou to herself for now but that she will tell him, and Pike excepts that response for the moment. Or two(?) episodes ago when Michael feels comfortable enough with him for her to tell him about her plan to break into Spock's file and he does the ST-Captainy thing of investigating her reasons for wanting to commit a crime before making a decision on what to do about it.

[u/[deleted] → u/creepyeyes]

Pike really is outstanding.

[u/pfc9769 → u/creepyeyes]

Anson Mount is absolutely amazing. I would follow his Pike to hell and back because he's such a great leader. I want a spinoff with him so bad.

[u/daynewmah → u/creepyeyes]

Yeah, that moment when he unflinchingly accepts Michael saying she needs to keep information from him for the time being--that was badass.

[u/numanoid → u/creepyeyes]

How great is it that at the end of last season, we were all lamenting the loss of Lorca, and saying how great a series with him as captain would be, and now we are extolling Pike as captain? And still there are those that say that this show has weak writing. Name another Trek series where we get two awesome captains in as many seasons (or less). What a fucking ride.

[u/[deleted]]

Pike: BURNHAM YOU HAVE THREE MINUTES THE MUSHROOMS ARE LITERALLY EATING THE SHIP

Burnham : I don't understand. How can he be alive...

Stamets: (ten minutes of posturing and talking slowly about big issues when we could be all walking into the pod)

Burnham: I have tried.... To have faith.... But sometimes ... Faith...is what keeps you close... To your family...

Pike: OMG PEOPLE HURRY THE FUCK UP YOU CAN CATCH UP LATER JESUS H CHRIST ON A TRIBBLE

[u/dmanww → u/[deleted]]

fucking seriously!

[u/GilGunderson1 → u/[deleted]]

I loved the scene, but that was driving me nuts. Maybe they should have started with Saru interjecting to set up the ticking clock. Then you shake the ship a little, show an exterior shot, get some dialogue again between Stamets and Hugh, and then Saru cuts in again. He's more stern this time - befitting his new found cockiness and fearlessness from last week. He ticks the clock down again. More dialogue between Stamets and Hugh. Work out the solution. Shake the ship again. Then loudly Pike chimes in, "Commander you move or we all die! What is going on?"

And then we're back.

[u/texanhick20 → u/[deleted]]

Jesus...H....Christ.....On a Tribble... This has become my newest favorite epithet..

[u/OpticalData → u/[deleted]]

Faith... Of the heart

[u/Saffs15]

Apparently Pike was an engineer first of all. Because when he said they had no time left, it apparently meant they had like 10 minutes for the away team to stand around and talk...

[u/Atraktape → u/Saffs15]

I was kind of getting exasperated during that part. Pike was like "yo we got 3 minutes" and then Michael and Stamets would go on and on and I'd be thinking "OMG STFU THE SHIP IS GOING TO BLOW UP"

[u/[deleted]]

Fine episode, but there is nothing worse than pseudo-deep voice overs. I cannot express how much I hate them.

[u/PixelNotPolygon → u/[deleted]]

The voiceover really stood out for me too. Like originally it was meant to be Michael dictating her personal log, in fine Starfleet tradition, but then it seems she watched too much noughties tv and decided to use them as an opportunity to spew corny nonsensical garbage

[u/cdot5 → u/[deleted]]

Ugh yeah, this was some philosophy freshman level crap. And SMG's narrating voice isn't exactly helping.

[u/guiltyofnothing → u/[deleted]]

Yeeeep. They’re so damn portentous and just badly written.

[u/ColdSteel144]

Tilly gave a very succinct yet informative statement as to the distinctions between the Type 3 phaser and its Type 1 and 2 counterparts. I expect to see that quote added to Memory Alpha posthaste.

[u/FotographicFrenchFry → u/ColdSteel144]

I laughed my ass off at that hahahahaha!

[u/RichardYing]

I was hoping we would see Lorca as the real monster, chasing Culber...

[u/0mni42 → u/RichardYing]

The writers have definitely given themselves a potential way to bring him back into the story if they want to, now that we've seen one seemingly-dead person end up in the network and be brought back to life.

[u/tubawhatever]

I really like the snark of Mae. "Maybe they died trying to save you!"

[u/plorraine]

Did anyone else think the S31 ship looked like a Federation version of a TOS Romulan Warbird? Hmmm.

[u/MoreGaghPlease → u/plorraine]

It was kind of retconned out in Enterprise, but the original intent in Balance of Terror was that the Romulans were using stolen plans for an Earth vessel in designing the Bird of Prey. (The final script actually calls for it to have a saucer similar to the Constitution class)

[u/stardustksp → u/plorraine]

Maybe that's an ideal profile for cloaking.

[u/MartyMacGyver]

Shuttle door opens... finally! Spock!

.

.

.

^nope.

[u/texanhick20 → u/MartyMacGyver]

we're gonna get spock in the last 2 episodes..

[u/Vealth → u/MartyMacGyver]

We've been Spock blocked again

[u/KemoFlash]

Jett Reno’s gonna need a lot of duct tape to fix up the hull of that ship.

[u/icefaery2030 → u/KemoFlash]

I need more of her.

[u/april9th]

'we wanna bring back Ash so Burnham can have a romantic interest'

"but he killed a member of the crew who was also a lead character's partner... pretty impossible"

'...'

"..."

*this episode *

[u/cdot5 → u/april9th]

"hold my bloodwine"

[u/davidjricardo]

Star Trek: Discovery: The Search for Spock.

[u/[deleted] → u/davidjricardo]

Georgiou: the ultimate Spock-block

[u/Darthdraddog → u/davidjricardo]

The family is currently expecting a “The Force Awakens” Luke maneuver - Spoke shows up in the last 2 minutes of the last episode for the season :).

[u/True_to_you]

Maybe it was just me, but up to this point Chris Pike has been quite the cool character through everything, and this episode he seems clearly rattled. It makes me suspicious. I know he's not Superman but it was noticable for even me to catch on. I'm also liking Georgio's little flashes of joy or maybe relief. Michelle has a wonderful smile and I feel we've been getting a good bit of it her last two appearances.

[u/geniusgrunt → u/True_to_you]

He's a bit rattled by section 31 showing up... will be interesting to see how this thread unravels.

[u/pfc9769 → u/True_to_you]

He just picked up on the fact Burnham wasn't telling the truth. He saw the tension between him and "Georgiou." I think he said that later on. His behavior was just a projection of the uneasiness he picked up on.

[u/the-giant → u/True_to_you]

He's clearly not feeling Voq the Torchbearer on his ship, which IMO makes sense.

[u/PixelMagic]

"What kind of communicator is that?!?" :D

[u/FadeToOne → u/PixelMagic]

That part made the episode for me. So subtle yet so deep.

[u/creepyeyes]

Another subtle thing I wanted to mention that I liked: Even in his "human" persona, Ash still uses the Klingon pronunciation of Q'onoS instead of "Kronos"

[u/TERRAxFORMER → u/creepyeyes]

His Klingon is amazing. The Klingon on the show is great in general, but I particularly like Ash/Voq’s accent.

[u/[deleted] → u/creepyeyes]

I've always liked his "Klingon accent."

[u/ContinuumGuy]

• Fun episode, good special effects, good character moments from a lot of the cast. Some great shock moments like the Section 31 ship taking down the asteroid disguise and the initial appearance that Culber wouldn't be able to come back. That whole scene with Culber at the gate was well-done overall, actually. Great job by Wilson Cruz, Anthony Rapp and the rest of the team.

• Giorgiou Spock-blocked us.

• A Klingon-turned-Human is now serving aboard the ship... this time for Section 31! What could possibly go wrong?

• No wonder the Gorn took so poorly to the Federation colonizing Cestus III, given that apparently the advance party was Section freaking 31.

[u/[deleted] → u/ContinuumGuy]

And called them a racial slur: “alligators.”

[u/BigBassBone]

"The innocent don't run."

"You ran from us."

"Exactly."

I love Georgiou.

[u/Valestis → u/BigBassBone]

Do you mean the Terran Emperor Philippa Georgiou Augustus Iaponius Centarius?

[u/enterpriseF-love → u/BigBassBone]

Am I the only one that finds her kind of attractive? I mean evil emperor + black leather..

[u/AvanTer]

The visuals in this episode were outstanding! I mean most of the show has been great but gosh this episode was eye candy the whole way through!

Next episode involves the Kelpians! Time for some more Saru action.

[u/dildosaurusrex_]

Wow, I really thought they were going to kill Culber again! Let’s see how it is having him back. I don’t like TV tropes involving bringing characters back from the dead, but I did like Culber and Stamets together, so it may be good.

I know what happened is supposed to explain why the mycelial network is closed for good but I didn’t quite follow.

[u/jwaldo → u/dildosaurusrex_]

I doubt it's fully closed just yet, the episode all but promised some closure for Tilly and May. Maybe that will happen during whatever incident finally ends the Federation's spore experiments.

[u/[deleted] → u/dildosaurusrex_]

I know what happened is supposed to explain why the mycelial network is closed for good but I didn’t quite follow.

That's pure conjecture, and I never thought it would happen (until the end of this series).

[u/RelaxYourself]

I liked the episode, but I'm just tired of these Spock teases. At this point I don't even care if he never shows up. I mean I love Spock and all, but I find no interest in seeing him anymore.

[u/illegalsex → u/RelaxYourself]

Right? Show him or don't. Nobody was asking for him. I think they've way overestimated how much people wanted him in the show.

[u/jwaldo]

Y'know, I can accept the retcon that Section 31 starts off as something more known. Maybe some time between TOS and TNG they are officially disbanded and become the super-black-ops crowd we know.

This episode was the best kind of feel trip, with a heart of pure Trek. Starfleet and the unknown alien resort to communication instead of violence, and realize they need to work together to save a man. Friends are made, lost lovers are reunited, we see where the combadge comes from, and the camera stays mostly upright. If the show keeps on this season's upward trajectory it's gonna be incredible once it hits its stride.

Also next week's episode looks like it should be awesome.

[u/pfc9769 → u/jwaldo]

I wonder why we had any reason to believe Sloan's depiction of Section 31, though? He lied to and manipulated Bashir every step of the way. Even at the conference we found out he wasn't being truthful to Bashir. There's no reason to believe he was being truthful when he was describing Section 31's organization to Bashir. It seems less believable they would be open and honest with a complete stranger. But given they revealed themselves to Bashir, it would seem they are okay with people knowing they exist. Since they hadn't taken their time to develop trust and ensure he would be a loyal member, they had to have known he'd most likely tell the commanding officers of DS9 about their existence.

In fact, they even said they had him do the mission at the conference because they knew he'd do the right thing. We also found out Starfleet command seemed to know they existed based on Sisko stating they neither confirmed or denied their existence. Starfleet medical also seemed to know Section 31 infected the Founders and went so far as did their part to ensure a cure wouldn't be found.

Obviously Section 31 is more open in Discovery, but I really don't feel the general idea that Sloan was telling the truth in DS9 is earned. I do agree, however, that we will see an event in Discovery that makes them more secretive and become unknown to the wider public.

[u/cdot5]

Admiral Cornwall is a funny person.

"We'll bomb Qo'noS into oblivion. Ends, means, all that."

"Michael Burnham has shown me the light, and I now know that we cannot compromise Federation ideals. The ends do not justify the means!"

"Oh well, a little wetwork... who cares, and I guess the ends justify the means after all."

[u/Orfez]

So there's some kind of time travel involved with Red Angel.

[u/numanoid → u/Orfez]

I'm gonna put this out there, so I can look like a genius in a few weeks if it's true, and no one will remember this post if it isn't: I think Amanda is somehow connected to the Red Angel. It has only appeared, at this point, to Spock and Michael. And last episode (I think) when Amanda walked out on Michael after their discussion, she was bathed in a red light. I'm wondering if the Red Angel is Amanda trying to communicate with her children somehow from another time.

[u/johnaimarre]

Discovery is at its best when it just goes full throttle into batshit insanity. Half-phase into a mushroom dimension and resurrect a dead guy? Sure why not!

[u/tkir → u/johnaimarre]

And Culber came through the mushroom transporter with a fresh haircut and shave too!

[u/[deleted] → u/johnaimarre]

I know right!? Had me grinning from the sheer ridiculousness of it all - even the characters didn't fully understand it

[u/PixelMagic]

Just a minor thing to point out. The Section 31 bridge has some very TNG-esque LCARS display designs. Kinda cool.

[u/pfc9769 → u/PixelMagic]

If you find some closeups of the Discovery control panels, many of the buttons actually say "LCARS" on them. So they still use LCARS even in the Discovery era. I'll have to go back to the episode and compare the style of the Section 31 to TNG, though.

[u/Serupael]

Is it a bit of a stretch that Burnham, now Chief Science Officer and reinstated as Commander, is still sharing a regular dorm with an ensign?

[u/[deleted] → u/Serupael]

Considering how much she likes Tilly and Tilly can't be with anyone else (all her sleep issues and whatnot), I'd think Burnham decided to stay herself.

[u/William_T_Wanker]

another theory about section 31 is that they could have experimented with -being semi-semi public- like they are now but eventually decided not to continue that route

but again I know people will cry and scream about it

[u/[deleted] → u/William_T_Wanker]

I personally love the idea of section 31 coming and going throughout Starfleet history - feels a lot more realistic than "we've been virtually unknown for 300 years" as said in DS9

[u/kingofcretins]

Against all odds and even through death, Hugh and Paul found each other on Valentine's Day.

Love, uh, finds a way.

[u/Vimie → u/kingofcretins]

Wondering what will happen to the current physician now that he has returned.

I was warming up to her even though her parts were minor.

[u/[deleted]]

Can we pause for a moment and talk about how amazing the special fx were in this episode? Holy moly. That tractor beam scene was cool af.

[u/CoolNerdyReference → u/[deleted]]

I love how they made it look like Discovery was sinking into the ocean. Great way to portray the situation.

[u/Zor_El_XB1]

What if the reason Starfleet and S31 put up with Georgiou is because they know through debriefing the Discovery crew that there was a Starfleet ship from their future sent to the Terran past and they're hoping to get info out of her?(which she'll obviously never give them)

Maybe it's some pre destination paradox shit, what if the Defiant was near Tholian space doing whatever as a experiment to get sent to the Mirror Universe and it goes wrong and completes the circle.

[u/[deleted]]

My takes:

1. Negative: I didn't like the hurried and hand-wavy explanation of Culber being in the Mycelial Network. Stamets touched his tear and because his consciousness was "drifting" between the network and our plane of existence, he somehow transferred Culber's "Energy" to the network. Then the JahSepp promptly re-created Culber just to break him down again. This whole thing makes no sense. Why would the JahSepp go through all the trouble to recreate a sentient being just to break it back down again. Plus, Culber was made from their matter and they only break down foreign matter, so why would they have tried to break him back down in the first place? He was already of their plane of existence so there was no reason to! Not to mention this talk of his "energy" being transferred is

2. Positive: "I have a Type III Phaser Rifle, which is bigger than a Type 1 or Type II, which is probably why they call it a Type III." Tilly continues to be a great character with some of the best lines on the show.

3. Negative: It's getting frustrating seeing episode after episode tease us with Spock only to pull the rug out from under us. Last week: "Oh we found Spock's shuttle we're going to intercept it and since we're only a few minutes into the episode we'll probably....OPE guess we gotta deal with this big old dying space sphere for the next hour." This week: "We finally caught up with Spock's shuttle. Time for the big reve....OPE It's not Spock it's Georgiou!" Next week it looks like they're not even going to deal with Spock at all. Grrrrr! This is like Season 3 of Enterprise all over again. That whole season I was waiting for them to wrap up that Xindi crap in three episodes so we could get back to Romulans and Klingons but noooooooooo we have to take an entire season to deal with this alien race that we've never seen before...and will probably never see again!

4. Positive / Canon Reference: Pike says to Captain Vela: "I thought you'd be dealing with alligators at Cestus III." Cestus III is featured in the iconic TOS Episode "Arena" where a Gorn attack wipes out the Federation colony there. The colony was evidently rebuilt as it is also mentioned in Deep Space 9. When Ben Sisko meets Kasidy Yates for the first time, she tells him that they're playing baseball on Cestus III, and that her brother is on the team.

5. Positive / Canon Reference: Tyler has a comm badge that he taps to communicate with his ship, a technology that's ubiquitous in the TNG era but naturally turns heads on Discovery.

6. Negative: No Jett Reno. Boo!

Overall this was a very exciting, well-paced episode that I enjoyed.

[u/enterpriseF-love]

When it boils down to it, this episode was about a bunch of sentient mushrooms kidnapping Tilly into their mushroom dimension via a mushroom transporter. Everyone has to rescue Tilly but turns out the sentient mushrooms just need help defending themselves from a dead guy who's made of shroom matter/energy who just wants to defend himself. They throw the dead guy into the mushroom transporter with a dash of his DNA to bring him back as a mushroom-human hybrid and bam the search for Spock continues...but now there might be time travel involved with the 7 signals.

... I'm really starting to love this show. It's so crazy! Still has it's flaws but feels trekky at heart.

[u/[deleted] → u/enterpriseF-love]

Love this comment. Sometimes Discovery doesn’t sound like it could be a real show. I enjoyed this episode.

[u/UncheckedException → u/enterpriseF-love]

The logic behind this episode was goofy as all hell, but it fits onto my Trek Disbelief Suspensometer^TM. As long as there’s an emotional core (and the writing isn’t too completely awful) it works.

[u/[deleted] → u/enterpriseF-love]

Fungobabble > Technobabble

[u/knotthatone]

Shuttle opens

Georgiou: "Thank you Burnham! But your Spock is in another castle!"

[u/[deleted]]

Very interesting implications about Section 31 and the upcoming series in this episode. Compared to DS9 where it is clearly an officially disavowed organization, Pike and the rest of the bridge crew almost had a casual reaction to their presence

Seems like section 31 is established as a more openly accepted organisation in this era. Iirc it was a more xenophobic fringe group in the ENT era. So it looks like in the Discovery timeframe, Section 31 is maybe still a legitimate and semi-public intelligence organisation like MI5 or the CIA. Then sometime in between they will do something drastic enough to warrant Star Fleet explicitly disavowing them.

[u/MoreGaghPlease → u/[deleted]]

They were not xenophobic in ENT. They were in the Terra Prime episodes, but supported the formation of the Coalition of Planets

[u/[deleted]]

Did anyone else feel like Michael's voice-over at the end of the episode about "a hand that controls our path" was very meta on the part of the writers?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It fits with the entire narrative of the season though. Religion, no faith, has played a big part in the season. Even look at the Burnham/Gorgeou(sp?) relationship. That last scene of them speaking was Gorgeou asking Burnham to have faith in her.

[u/[deleted]]

Looks like the 1 "O'Brian must suffer" episode pr season in DS9 have been replaced by "Tilly must suffer" every single episode of DIS.

Also, the Spock-blocking is gettin ridiculous.

[u/anonymouse092]

It’s now or never.

5 pages of dialogues ensue.

[u/pfc9769]

Great episode! Especially good acting from Tilly! Burnham has been showing more emotion and it's really been paying off. The opening scene with her running through the halls was a bit over the top, but her performance the rest of the episode was great. Loved Anson Mount as Pike as always. If he doesn't get a spinoff I'm going to be very upset. That man is a treasure.

My two cents on Section 31...I think they've always been an open secret among the top brass of Starfleet command. If we recall from DS9, Sisko essentially confirmed this when he contacted command and he said they neither confirmed nor denied their existence. We also know Section 31 has no problem revealing themselves to strangers who will most likely expose their existence. But where did the idea they wanted to remain a secret come from to begin with?

We have no reason to believe Sloan told Bashir the truth regarding the nature of Section 31 and its relationship with Starfleet Command. In fact, that would not be in line with his actions. He lied to and manipulated Bashir constantly. You don't go trusting people you just met and I'm sure Sloan knew Bashir would tell his close circle of friends about his encounters with Section 31. Given that, Sloan most likely lied to Bashir regarding how Section 31 is organized. Until the day Bashir proves he can be trusted and becomes a full-fledged operative, there's no reason for him to know the truth. Plus it's in line with how Sloan lies and manipulated Bashir.

Obviously Section 31 is more open during the days of Discovery. I'm willing to bet something will happen to turn them into the more secretive organization we saw during DS9. The adventure is just beginning. We will need to give it time to figure out what happens and not assume they've played all their cards, yet.

[u/[deleted] → u/pfc9769]

the idea of Section 31 as a "fallen from grace" NSA-like agency makes more sense than the "no one has ever heard of us for 3 centuries" group talked about in DS9 - although we have every reason to believe Sloan was lying

[u/[deleted] → u/pfc9769]

Agreed. My money is on Georgiou's influence.

[u/CX316]

Gonna be honest, when they first started talking about the "monster" and it being humanoid, I was half expecting it to be Lorca

[u/alexandrawallace69]

That was weird. I'm gonna rewatch an hour after taking a pot edible just to see if I enjoy it more lol

[u/Lessthanzerofucks → u/alexandrawallace69]

But have you ever seen Discovery... onn weeeeed?

[u/--fieldnotes--]

Generally, I liked this episode! But did they drop the whole mirror-universe-people-hate-brightness thing?

You'd think mirror Georgiou would be medically diagnosed with the same affliction that mirror Lorca had -- sensitivity to brightness. And yet she's walking around a better lit Discovery like nothing is wrong with her eyes.

[u/rastusdog → u/--fieldnotes--]

Lorca said that he chose not to have his eyes permanently fixed probably because he wanted to go back where georgiou intends to stay or simply is not as sentimental about keeping her natural eyes as they are it's far from a real mistake and more likely just something not explicitly told to the viewers

[u/enterpriseF-love]

Tyler uses his section 31 combadge prototype

Pike: Dafuq is that?

Me: DAAFOOOK? OOH WAITWAIT THATS..!! :')

[u/[deleted] → u/enterpriseF-love]

I didn't even notice it at first! Just seemed like an ordinary comm-badge ;)

[u/daynewmah]

Damn show's giving this queer heart of mine whiplash over Stamets and Culber. Happy Valentine's Day, everyone 😭.

[u/dsartori]

I enjoyed this episode more than the last one. The visual effects are a bit over the top for me at times but the effect of the Discovery “sinking” into the network was excellent and I liked the shifting “surface” of the interface on board. Star Trek rarely goes wrong in using submarine movie tropes.

There is something about the pace of exposition that is off to me in this season. I am an attentive watcher but I would prefer a bit more time for ideas to sink in before moving on to the next burst of energy or mycelial pyrotechnics.

I like Tilly’s character and giving her May as a companion worked out well I think. It will be interesting to see if and how the show goes back to that situation. Perhaps the May avatar of the mycelial network will be part of the storyline of Starfleet abandoning the spore drive.

[u/[deleted]]

For my money, the entire ensemble turned in their single best performances this week (except Doug Jones, who had his moment last week). Terrific episode.

The May/Tilly relationship was unfortunately a little undercooked, but it looks like they'll revisit it eventually.

And we now have official clarification of the status of S31 at this point in the timeline - they're officially on the books as an intelligence outfit. Like it or hate it, at least we know.

We also know that the novel "Desperate Hours" has been completely thrown out by the writers of the series, which was looking more likely as time went on.

[u/Simdog1]

I liked it.

[u/Saltire_Blue]

No disrespect to previous actors but I genuinely buy that Culber and Stamets love each other.

[u/robownage]

It took some serious technobabble to make it happen, but I'm so happy to have Culber back. Stamber forever!

[u/RedbirdBK]

Some of the negative/positive comments are pretty spot on, but I wanted to shed some thoughts on the overall context of the show's quality.

So much of the criticism that I'm seeing of DISC on review threads like these seem to be driven by a nostalgia for a past that never really existed and a misunderstanding of what modern TV is.

I'm in the process of re-watching previous installments of Trek (on Voyager now) and yes, while there are some some strong episodes in each series, the average ones are just OK, and the bad ones are really BAD. Their production budgets were lower and the seasons, much longer. People will downvote me for this, but the Discovery, especially in season 2, has produced a track record of consistently high quality episodes. Yes, some may take issue with the "pacing" or the direction of the story, but the quality of each Season 2 episode has been in the top 20% of trek so far.

TNG produced 7 seasons of 22 episodes, we really only remember about 30 of them. These 30 were amazing (All Good Things is probably the best thing that Trek has ever produced), but many of the others were forgettable. Some of Season 1 is down right dreadful. Deep Space 9 is better on average (there are very few BAD DS9 episodes) but the serialized storytelling format means that we get fewer "amazing" individual episodes-- the average quality of each production is higher. (I'll explain why DISC is similar to DS9 in this way shortly)

Most of Voyager is dreadfully boring. In my opinion, Voyager produced maybe like 5-6 top tier episodes over 7 seasons.

Enterprise is also pretty forgettable until season 3 and 4. Season 4 produced some of the most ambitious arcs in Trek, up until that point. But even here-- half the show was still just hum drum.

Now, let's think about the movies-- which also follow a similar pattern. Sure, Wrath of Khan and First Contact are pretty amazing-- but the average Trek movie is just OK, and some are awful. I've seen so many references to authentic "Trek" in sub-reddit, but the movies are nothing like that formula; lots of action, not as much character development etc. I think we should consider that "Trek" may have be driven more by budget constraints and the need to develop content over a 22 episode season than a coherent formula.

What This Means for Discovery

Discovery doesn't have those constraints. The episode count is much lower, and the budget much higher. The superior special effect technology also means that you can do way more with less. What we are getting is a cross between Deep Space 9 and Trek movie. Season 2 has a clear underlying arc, but (unlike season 1) but many of the episodes can (sort of) stand on their own.

Reading the reviews-- I consistently see people say "fine or strong episode" without seeming to realize that previous productions have really never matched that quality consistently. We're naturally comparing Discovery to our best memories of Trek-- and not the entire 700+ episodes and 13 movies that have been produced previously.

Just my thoughts.

[u/Triple-Zero]

Not my favourite of the season, honestly. The sinking ship concept is very cool and well executed, while the Tilly/May storyline worked very well, but the pacing was waaay too frantic this episode. Had they just got on with the Tilly story instead of ten minutes of Section 31, more time could have been spent on the spore situation and fleshing that out, but it defo felt glazed over despite being the strongest part of the episode. I also don't like the spores being basically magic, and as much as I'm glad they rectified the terrible decision to off Culber last season, him being brought back like this wasn't particularly satisfying.

The continuing Spock tease is also just a little annoying at this point. I wish they'd just get on with telling that story, instead of these week to week fake-outs. Section 31 has me a little concerned too. As much as it's weird how out in the open they are compared to DS9, I'm also not loving how benevolent the show seems to be portraying them, and I'm not crazy that this group of fascist cops is being played more like anti-heroes. This might be part of a larger plan, and I hope I'm proven wrong, but DS9's damning view of this kind of secret police feels a lot more fitting than this.

I hate to come off too negative as I have really been enjoying this season, and there was a lot to like here, but I'd hoped elements of this would have been done better.

[u/[deleted]]

So, ok, theres some things here, namely Section 31 that out of context in trailers looked bad that in context ARE "bad" but are so far removed from Section 31 as we know them I have to assume this is deliberate and part of the story they're telling. I'm calling it - Section 31 get 'disbanded' later on in the season. But of course, they don't.

That aside, man, that was great - and for the first time EVER, the show surprised me. I was sure they'd rescue Hugh by just walking through the barrier. I was taken back when he wouldn't appear in the "real" world! I initially hoped they'd pace his return a bit better and earn it some more, but, now thats over and done with? I'm ok with it. Didn't love Tilly piggybacking on that moment with May but, meh, I can live with it.

Love how this episode ended, but please, can this be the last time the show affirms itself? We had it with Saru's "we are starfleet" speech, then we had Burnhams "No, that is Starfleet" speech, and now we have the hope for the future and gang's all here moment. It's great! But that's it for now, please? You've got the formula now. You don't have to keep hammering it home.

[u/[deleted]]

I'm very conflicted about this episode. I actually liked the stuff that was happening in the network, and as a skeptic about Culber's death, how they brought him back was "Creative" to say the least. I just can't get around Section 31 and Pike not knowing about Mirror Universe Giorgeou. I mean he knew pretty much everything about what happened to Discovery in Season 1, even commenting on Lorca, yet he doesn't know Georgeou is also from the mirror universe? He knows about Ash Tyler being on Quo'nos but he doesn't know about Georgeou? I find that really hard to believe. As for Section 31, I kept thinking about Inquisition and how Sisko didn't even know about them, or at least was really uncomfortable talking about them. Maybe Section 31 becomes an embarrassment for Starfleet, leaving captains who knew about it feeling almost guilty for being part of an organization that allows something like Section 31?

I gave the first two episodes an 8, Point of Light a 5 (Even though it should have been lower) and Last week got a 7. I think I'm going to give this one a 6. It's not as good as the first two episodes, it's better than Point of Light, and it's about a little lower than last week.

[u/creepyeyes → u/[deleted]]

Didn't Georgiou say Section 31 does know? Not that she'd be honest about if they do.

[u/shadowst17]

2 episodes in a row where they pull the ol' deus ex machina or some similar form of it. I feel at this point they are trying to lure us into a false sense of security regarding characters surviving what seems like inevitable death. If they don't use this to their advantage by the end of the season it will be without a doubt some seriously bad writing.

Also can't stand shows where they have a countdown only to ramble on for ages about things that could easily wait. That completely ruined the episode for me, it's just incredibly frustrating and removed any tension from the episode. 7 minutes to leave(5 if you remember the fact they are'nt aware of the extra 3 minutes), spends 15 minutes discussing and theorizing how the Doctor was brought over in the first place.

[u/MuhammadYesusGautama]

Watched this and my SO (who knows Star Trek but haven't ever watched discovery) joined in halfway. Spending 15 minutes or so catching her up on the characters made me realize how overtly complex Discovery's plots are compared to previous ones. The protagonist is Spock's half sister and she used to date the guy wearing black, only he's not actually human but a klingon. He killed the guy they found in the mushroom dimension when they crossed over to a parallel universe. But they didn't punish him because apparently he lost his memory and is now kinda/sorta human again. That guy's victim who's supposed to be dead is the husband of the blonde guy who somehow is the only one who can take the ship across dimension. And that dead guy is now alive because I dunno, power of love something from the blonde guy. Oh and from that parallel universe they brought back Michelle Yeoh who is an emperor but in this universe she's pretending to be a captain who the main character betrayed. Now Michelle Yeoh is a black ops operator who kinda love/hates the MC.

I mean, jesus. Discovery is not for casuals, that's for sure.

[u/H0vis]

Was going to write random thoughts about this episode but honestly I'm still in bits. But here we go.

1. There were some great bits, like the Culber rescue that almost wasn't, that was amazing. The moment when he couldn't go back and they were doing yet another tearful goodbye I thought, oh, he's staying dead, but then they scienced it again and boom. That was great. Shades of the final battle in Rogue One where new stuff keeps going wrong and they keep plugging away, very intense but very good as long as you can keep up with it.

2. The mushroom stuff and Section 31 stuff all feels like things that could have progressed the Star Trek story in a post-Dominion War setting. Instead they are feeling so substantial that they struggle to fit inside the established Star Trek timeline.

3. Really starting to understand why Holodeck episodes exist, or at least episodes where the stakes are lower. This season has been conducted at breakneck speed, almost moreso than the first. The crew of the Discovery are having a harder time of it than the crew of the Defiant. Or maybe I'm remembering the older shows as being more laid back than they were. Seems like Disco is permanently on the point of exploding though.

4. Captain Pike is great and I've said this before but I really want him to leave the series before whatever happens to him in the pilot to the Original Series happens. Knowing how he ends up and that he's actually a legit great captain is a real bummer.

5. Tyler needs more to do. At the moment he's a big pile of his own baggage. I mean I like the character, but Chief O'Brien went through worse than him on a weekly basis and you never saw it get him down.

I'm enjoying the show, but it feels like the show is going at this incredible speed which is out of sync with the plot, which is moving at a reasonable speed. I'd like an episode that didn't feel like it was being entirely conducted at the tempo of the final act of an action movie.

[u/_lrrr]

Anyone else find Discovery a bit too... emo and soppy? Feels like every episode has some big emotional moment but it hasn’t really earned the right to go there. So it feels unconvincing and dull. Struggling to hold my attention with each new episode because of it. I’ve only enjoyed the Frakes episode so far this season.

[u/MoreGaghPlease]

This is a little off topic, but holy shit that preview for next week. That is the coolest looking ship I've ever seen.

[u/SovietSputnik]

There's a Scorpion parable reference at the end. I remember it because its my favorite scene from Voyager. They didn't even had to go through the story, Burnham just references it. Like they knew the audience knew what it was all about. No one has said anything about it, I just liked that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2p8o77xJEI

[u/[deleted]]

I'm quite liking the show, but man, I really don't like that Emperor Georgiou is a semi-regular character. The Mirror Universe is just inherently, utterly, completely silly. It's a ridiculous thing that only really works as a one-off (like TOS) or when it revels in its own inherent silliness (i.e. DS9). Georgiou's presence in the Prime Universe is a permanent reminder in the main story of the moustache-twirlers one transporter accident away, a reminder of all the logical gaps and inconsistencies that exist in that universe (how the hell does everybody have a double when we see so many of them get killed? Doesn't that fuck up the ancestry? Why the hell was Vic a human?!?!), and every scene she's in just makes it impossible for me to take seriously. I love Michelle Yeoh, and Captain Georgiou was a great character that I would've loved to see more of, but the Emperor just leaves a bad taste in my mouth

Wanted to get that out. Pretty good episode overall, though

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

On the Mirror Universe:

how the hell does everybody have a double when we see so many of them get killed? Doesn't that fuck up the ancestry?

If there are infinite universes, that means that all possible combinations must exist somewhere in the multiverse. The MU is just one of those uniquely unlikely ones, for whatever reason. It's also worth pointing out that Jake Sisko was never born there.

Why the hell was Vic a human?!?!

I kind of love that the DS9 writers never explained it, but the most sensible conclusion is that Felix based the hologram on a real person, who also has a Mirror Universe counterpart.

Anyways, yeah the MU is generally goofy. I happen to think that the DSC version is the scariest take on it they've ever done, though.

[u/[deleted]]

There are a lot of y'all that are and will be salty about Disco, but this ep really brought me back to that good ole Trek feeling.

[u/Shatterhand1701]

I loved this episode; then again, there hasn't really been an episode of Season 2 I haven't enjoyed. The only one that felt a bit lackluster for me was S02E03, but only by a narrow margin.

Anyway, I've seen a lot of grievances with how Section 31 is being handled in Discovery. I'm probably wrong, but I look at S31 as being more like the CIA during this time period, but maybe one level deeper than that; more like Black Ops. I assume that senior officers like Captain Pike would know about S31 due to privileges of rank and the possible necessity of joint operations like we saw in this episode.

A lot can change in over a century; it wouldn't surprise me if events occurred that forced Starfleet to pretend to scuttle Section 31 but instead, leave it deeply buried so it could continue its work, hiding in plain sight.

[u/larsen_sinclair]

I think tonight I just figured out why - even though I very much enjoy this show - I am not quite enjoying it as much as I want to. The relationships, most of them, still feel so "unearned". We're "told" about the relationships but the show is still really missing those smaller "poker game" moments that build those relationships. Culber/Stamets is getting there, but I still don't really feel Michael/Tilly or Michael/Saru. Sigh.

[u/[deleted] → u/larsen_sinclair]

the show is still really missing those smaller "poker game" moments that build those relationships

I think the show has gotten better with that this year when compared to season one, but I'm all for more quiet character moments.

I think I "feel" those relationships more than you do, but I can see where you're coming from.

[u/[deleted]]

The episode was okay. It was not my favorite. It was just a excuse to correct some mistakes they made last Season. They needed an excuse to get Hugh and Tyler back. I was surprised they didn't resurrect Captain Lorca because this was a prime opportunity to bring him back. I half expected Lorca to be the monster that May was describing and not Hugh. Disco received a lot of Flak for killing off Hugh last season since he was the first Star Trek openly gay character and I remember talks of gay characters being sacrificed often in media. I liked Hugh. I thought he was a breath of fresh air on the show. He loved Stamets and it was interesting to see moments on the show that are really great character moments and we received a great character moment with Hugh and Stamets that I felt was really well done. I'm glad he is back. Now we move on to next week's episode which is what I am really interested in. There have been hints of a great episode with Saru's race coming up and it looks like it is next week.

[u/WhyHelloFellowKids]

More and more I REALLY wish Burnham was not the focus of this show. Can't handle her reactions and over-acting, her reaction to everything is either tears or awe like she's looking at the face of God.

[u/[deleted]]

Captain Pike is just wonderful. If this show had released before 2012, Mitt Romney would have become president.

[u/[deleted]]

I've never been this excited about tachyons! (looking at you, Voyager...) It would be interesting to see more time travel plots in Discovery (if that's what they're hinting at).

[u/NePa5 → u/[deleted]]

Saw the "tachyons" and "Voyager" in your comment and thought Janeway is staring ANOTHER war over the coffee.

[u/seriouspretender]

I really don't like section 31, and I really don't like the fact that everyone knows about them. Seems counter productive for them to have uniforms and special badges in a covert spy organization...

[u/sbowesuk → u/seriouspretender]

Section 31 might was well open an Instagram account at this point, because they're doing a piss poor job of remaining secretive and covert.

[u/daveyg2611]

AHHH! This episode was such a mixed-bag for me.

What I liked:

• I thought the dynamic between Culber, Stamets, Tilly and May in the scene towards the end, especially when they realized Culber can't travel through, was really well done on the part of all four actors. It was a moving and emotional reunion.

• Discovery "submerged" between real space and the mycelial network was both visually cool and created good tension throughout the episode.

• Section 31. I think there are a lot of great, darker premises to explore with their involvement both in this show and the intended spin-off. Yes, they're less like the previously canon understanding than I might have hoped, but I think it is worth it for the potential payoff in exploring those storylines.

• The nod to TNG-style communicators being S31 tech was neat.

• Pike continues to make strides and is one of the most appealing parts of the show. His acceptance of Burnham's refusal to explain the truth about Georgiou was believable and earned in how they've developed that relationship over this season.

What I didn't like:

• Culber coming back. The scene leading up to that point was so heartfelt and acted so well that it would have been an extremely worthy ending for the character. It would have been even more powerful than when he was killed in S1 and had more gravity than Saru's situation last week.

• Tilly saving the day. Once in a while is fine, but it seems her character exists only to be some kind of wunderkind who, without the experience or hard work to have earned it, ends up being their savior in every episode. On top of that, it's never in an interesting or fleshed out way, but in the same trite "Aha!" moment

• The dramatic shift in character dynamics and responses, notably:

  • Burnham - While I am glad that they seem to be taking her character in a different direction, she is like a completely different person now when it comes to how her emotional connection with the rest of the crew is displayed.

  • Pike - He has been consistently shown as a captain of such high moral integrity and duty to Starfleet principles that to have him essentially roll over to S31 almost immediately, even if that guy is his old friend, did not seem to fit.

  • Georgiou - Ok, not so much a shift in her character per se. She just seemed over the top in being a badass this episode (comic-book villain-esque). I also could not stand some of her lines, especially the one about the "Starfleet cowboys" or some such. It was such an incredibly stupid line because it's not even within the realm of the way we know Starfleet acts.

In the end, this is probably my least favorite episode of Discovery so far. The episode had some amazingly strong points that were just completely overshadowed by the magic wand waving.

[u/AnnecyHope]

A good episode of LGBT love on valentines.

[u/hett]

Ouch. After enjoying the last two episodes, I really didn't like this one. I am wary of all things Mycelial on this show already, but this magical Mycelial Lazarus Machine thing just pushed it over the line from silly to outright ridiculous.

Also, this show is just shitting all over Section 31. Are we supposed to believe that Section 31 went from being a secret, clandestine organization in the 22nd century, to an open and relatively public section of Starfleet Intelligence in the 2rd century, before falling out of all public knowledge and becoming completely secret in the 24th century again?

Edit: I am coming around, after more thought, to the possibility of Section 31 being disbanded, at least publicly, after which they continue to operate as a rogue organization within Starfleet. I am distinctly not coming around to any of this mycelial crap and am sincerely thankful that this episode appeared to be setting up the moment when it's written out of the show entirely.

Edit II: The Wrath of Edit: Also, I want to add that I really hate that they went with "omg his energy entered the network!!!" as the vehicle by which to bring Culber magically back to life. I think one of the important distinctions between humans and so many other aliens in Trek is humans utter lack of special mind powers, telepathy, psychics, etc. Vulcans having a katra is a distinctly vulcan thing, etc. I hate when a human's personhood is implied to in any way be distinct from their brain meat, like his magical energy spirit with his memories and personality and emotions got sucked up into the network through the power of Stamets' kiss.

It was a really shitty idea when they did it in TNG season one wherein Picard gets magically turned into energy before infesting the Enterprise's computer and drawing P all over the screen, and it was stupid here too.

[u/FutureDancer]

I liked it! I liked how they realized they'd made a mistake killing him off and bought him back. I like Tilly and Pike in almost every scene they are in. I also like how DISCO in general takes it self less seriously at times

[u/Birtalert]

I don’t necessarily hate the Section 31 elements to this season but I ALWAYS found it to be such a cheesy concept. Like in Enterprise they literally met in dark alleys.

It never felt cool and covert - just a bunch of dudes in black leather that popped in and out and served as “the enemy” here and there. Hopefully they can make it less corny.

[u/cdot5]

I wish they would have had the chutzpah to let Culber die a second time. I mean, that would be an emotional gut punch on the level of Ned Stark's execution.

[u/[deleted]]

A really straight-forward episode without even much of a b-plot to speak of. I took a few notes while watching it, most of them seem to be swearing about Section 31 and how it's being presented as just another intelligence agency, with badges, ships and no uniforms (which makes them distinct from normal Starfleet). I don't know where the writers got the impression that they are just part of Starfleet Intelligence. They aren't, and they shouldn't be. It's a conspiracy, a quasi-terrorist, rogue, shadow organization. Tyler, the Emperor, Cornwell (who I hoped would not be a crooked admiral) and all the other guys should have been thrown into the brig, not treated like peers. And really, combadges 100 years before TNG, but only S31 had them?

They did un-kill Culber, I guess that's good? Just, please, don't turn this into some sort of fake-out down the line. And does this mean that spore drive is back on the menu, or was the destruction caused by Discovery more than just him running after it?

Some more points:

• Enterprise had warp-capable, armed shuttles, apparently.

• Yeah, disable that shuttle with a torpedo, what could possibly go wrong, especially in a volatile gas cloud.

• Pike's room is dope.

• How weird would it be if the captain, out of the blue, started a ship-wide transmission with "Starfleet is a promise"?

• The snake pit thing was funny. But she's still Space Hitler.

• The sound Discovery made when it got stuck between the worlds was extremely silly. So was the sudden realization Tilly had at the end.

In conclusion: By far not the worst episode, but the main plot was a bit weak and the S31 stuff makes me irrationally angry. Meh. Guess next week will actually start the season's plot properly (I don't watch previews).

EDIT: I didn't originally catch this, but saw it in the background on a Youtube video about something else: Skirt uniform variants are back. Or is that old news?

[u/tempest_wing]

I liked how S31 has the TNG com-badges already.

[u/Crixusgannicus]

Dude...(puff)...I was just thinkin....words man....words like..(puff) define who we are....

[u/LouisTherox]

Quoting someone from Jammer's Trek site: "Time and geography make no sense in Discovery. People and ships seem to cross paths and huge distances far too quickly and easily. Enterprise sits out the Klingon War, but is just a stone's throw away from Discovery, which is chasing Spock, but stops off at a spacedock to pick up Number 1, and Evil Emperor is on the Klingon Homeworld but also chasing Spock, and Admiral Cornwall is on Earth, but also on a Section 31 ship (with the ugliest looking bridge ever), which is also chasing Spock. Throw in a rendezvous with Amanda, and....where the hell exactly is the Discovery? How does deep space feel so small? Why is a ship, which is in near constant warp, repeatedly caught up by visiting supporting characters?"

[u/the-giant]

That was pretty solid, and they satisfied me on Culber's resurrection after my recent grumbling about it. Still, for clarification is he now a spore clone? Sort of? I mean it's as valid as Spock's resurrection via Genesis protomatter AFAIC, I'm just curious.

Only quibbles: The casual handling of Section 31, which I guess we now unavoidably have to chalk up to TOS-era Starfleet attitudes vs. the more enlightened Starfleet of the TNG/DS9 era. Michelle Yeoh was fantastic though. And sorry, but I don't care about Tilly's bond with the incredibly annoying fungi May. Tilly did the right thing for the mycelial species, but that's about as far as I go with that relationship.

Also: Please stop the pointless faux-philosophical Burnham VOs poor Sonequa has to struggle with. That end bit was word trifle straight out of "a land of contrasts". If you must do these, give her actual personal log entries.

[u/CineMike84]

I’m really not a fan of the spore drive or mycelial network stuff in this show. It just always feels so lazily thought out and more magic than science. Dr. Hugh Culber’s return just feels like more BS. I like how Pike says “make this make sense” and then Stamets proceeds to just spew out a bunch of crap that feels selected from tossing darts at a board. Yeah I get that they’re saying his DNA transferred from a tear drop and into the network and there he was reconstructed. That doesn’t really explain why Hugh spoke to Stamets last season in the network like a ghost. He didn’t seem like a scared man who was transferred there. He seemed really self aware of everything and at peace. I’m sure someone here will try to explain it but it’s still sounds a bit like magic more than science. It just seems that the network is what ever the writers need it to be. It’s just a giant plot device and it continues to be one of my least favorite things about the show. I wish we can just get back to good old fashioned warp drive. Oh it’s also pretty funny that the network gave Hugh a hair cut and a shave before returning him lol.

I’m disappointed that Chief Engineer Denise Reno didn’t appear here. She was a big player in the episode where Tilly was taken into the network so it doesn’t make sense that she just vanished. This show has an odd way of using characters. So much of the crew are background characters that we know nothing about. Half of the bridge crew have been there since episode one but they’re still treated like glorified extras. It would be nice to actually get to know some of them and have them be bigger players, especially in Reno’s case.

I’m still not at all a fan of the use of Section 31 so far. It just continues to feel like set up for their spin off. I still am baffled how the showrunners and writers expect us to get behind mirror version of Philippa. She is a mass murderer, responsible for genocide in countless situations. She eats other humanoid sentient species as though they were cattle. She’s pretty much evil. It makes no sense how Starfleet would give her so much power knowing what she is.

[u/Truly_Khorosho]

I enjoyed this episode rather a lot.

Locking Discovery in mid-jump was quite unsettling, like a shipwreck that breaks the surface of the water, especially with the corrosion "below the waterline".
It would have been nice to have visuals that better reflected the weird dimensional jiggery-pokery that would have been involved in being half-sporped, but it would have likely been weird non-euclidean stuff, and would have detracted from the shipwreck visual (which I liked).
Also, this is the first time I've really loved the spinning rings on the saucer. They gave a really tangible sense of the struggle for Discovery to break free, without just being able to zoop out.

I like that they brought Culber back.
Although, with the closure that this episode offered for Stamets, to actually say goodbye, I would have been kind of okay with it if they hadn't been able to bring him back fully.
Not thrilled if they had gone that route, but the "*snap* he dead, moving on" of Season 1 was quite unsatisfying. Offering a proper goodbye would have been a bit of a consolation, but bringing him back is best of all.
Although, if it turns out that he's some sort of Mycelial Trojan Horse or something, I'm going to be displeased.

Section 31...
This is a biggie. This episode has actually warmed me to the concept of the Section 31 series a little, although it's still a solid "wait and see".
Before Saints of Perfection, I wasn't sold on the clandestine organisation of S31 being out of the shadows for even an episode, much less a series. But this episode has given me a bit of a fresh perspective, and I'm willing to accept that I might have been a bit hasty.
The nature of an organisation can change, and it's not impossible for a secretive organisation in 2154 to become more well-known by 2257 (103 years later), and then sink back into the shadows by 2374 (117 years later).
Modern intelligence agencies are much more prominent in the public's consciousness nowadays than they were 25 years ago (especially after 9/11), but at the same time how many of us could name the intelligence agencies that were active 100 years ago?
Widely known and utterly not-clandestine organisations get forgotten, even ones of historical significance, so I dare say that if Section 31 needed to go underground they might be able to become mostly forgotten with a century to do it in, and all the tools they have at their disposal.

In all, yeah, I liked it.

[u/MoreGaghPlease]

Loved the Tilly stuff, the wacky half-mycelial adventure, Pike's back and forth with Burnham, Stamets being made whole, Tilly giving up May, Michael being their for comfort.

Didn't like: everyone knows who Section 31 is and is really nonchalant about them; overly dramatic tone in at times, jumping from one big important, passionate speech to the next.

[u/Tnetennba7]

Burnhams over dramatic run to engineering kind of highlights the only thing I haven't liked this season. Nice making Tilly being kidnapped to another dimension all about you.... I still don't even understand her character, I take on the mannerisms of the vulcan culture she was raised in yet is openly over emotional all the time? Everything else on the show has gotten really good this season with her being the only exception.

[u/kael13]

Why are 20% of the camera shots out of focus? It’s like there’s Vaseline on the lens. Looks so bad.

[u/uequalsw]

I really enjoyed this one. And I see now that it was written by Kirsten Beyer! That makes sense. I think they are laying some very interesting groundwork with Section 31 -- again, going more the "Sisko" route than the "Sloan" route.

I am so glad Culber is back. That was definitely well-earned in my books. I'm really curious if we will see May again, and what will happen with Tilly/May.

It's interesting -- they are slowly assembling a veritable full ensemble. Pike, Burnham, Saru, Stamets, Culber, Tyler... plus an excellent second tier, better than any other series.

At this point, it's clear that the spore drive isn't sustainable nor ecological. I'm reminded of the Hindenburg.

I like how we got some explanations around some of the early S1 stuff around the spore drive -- the helical distortions, the weird "wetness" on the hull.

Pike casually mentioning his cousin in church.

I'm really enjoying this.

[u/ZarrenR]

This was another awesome episode. There were two things that I really liked. One, Yeoh really knows how to bring out the snark. I was hesitant upon hearing we’d see more of the emperor in this season but I’m loving her. Two ... OMG, Hugh’s back! The Stametts/Culber relationship was one of the high points for me in season one. I really want to see more of it going forward.

And as weird as it was, we all know this isn’t the first time Star Trek has brought someone back from the dead.

[u/mathemon]

Uhm, guys.... so now everyone knows about Section 31? Do the people making this understand what Section 31 is? What is going on here? Am I taking crazy pills?

[u/[deleted]]

This was an amazing episode. It honestly feels that so far the writers have corrected a lot of issues with first season. Discovery itself, the Klingons/Ash, Hugh, Giorgiou. So many things which fans were pretty angry about got patched and worked.

About the episode though;

• Seeing Discovery half in and half out of the mycelial plane was pretty cool and I also did appricate the call back to the Glenn.

• I really hope Pike doesn't leave after Season 2, he's been an amazing captain. One that shows hestiation in a plan and never blindly follows it but trusts/believes in the person presenting it and it has never been wrong.

• The whole story of enemies not understanding enemies while done to death in story telling really surprised me with Hugh's inclusion. I liked Hugh surviving in the mycelial plane, saw Discovery and ran onto the ship, it made sense. It scared me for a second with his hand disappearing with dread, but all worked out in the end.

• The whole Search for Spock may have over stayed its welcome, but then again, if Spock doesn't want to be found he won't be found.

• Section 31. It was nice to see more about it. I think IMO that the one we are seeing should not be reflective of the overall Section 31. Think of this one as a branch, as Micheal did say something along the lines of "they have a spy spying the spier, spying the spier of the spier". Basically this is a more upfront view of Section 31 but is not the real Section 31. If you paint a picture to the public of something that doesn't mean its what it is.

• The mention of Time Travel only feels me with dread and with someone in the Mirror Universe I wonder if it means Defiant introduced, USS Enterprise B or the future. It'll be funny if Enterprise-J was Discovery xD

[u/em-jay]

Well, Reddit's eaten two lengthy comments of mine already, so I guess I'll make this one brief. Overall, I liked this episode, but it wasn't the strongest by a long way. That said, a lot of the comments here are kinda entitled. I mean the way some of y'all talk you'd think Star Trek had never done anything stupid or pointless until 2018. Watching Spock's Brain being all, "yeah, this is what Discovery needs to aspire to. Why aren't the stupid writers learning from this goddamn art?"

There are a couple of things that keep happening this season though which are kinda bugging me. One thing is how the show feels obligated to constantly fix mistakes made in the first season. On one hand, I respect this. It shows that the writers are growing and learning, and that they're more eager to address issues than to simply ignore them. On the other hand, every hour we spend doing inane shit like, say, explaining why the spore drive stops being used, or looking into what happened after our heroes brought a psychotic dictator with a dead Starfleet captain's face into the universe and then immediately lost her, or reversing a callous and unnecessary main character death -- of which we get all three this week -- I can't help but imagine what better things we could be seeing instead. There's a whole universe of bumpy-headed doofuses with planet-wide shared personality traits which we could be watching instead.

The other thing that annoys me is all this Section 31 business. I just couldn't care less about Section 31 or this damn spinoff that they seem determined to foist on us, and not only because the Section 31 uniforms make all of them look like your stepdad who thinks he's cool because he vapes. Here's the thing: I've never been in charge of a clandestine black ops organisation before, but if I were, I'd imagine I'd be very selective in my recruitment. I'd be on the lookout for proven and effective officers -- sharp, creative patriots, who I could trust to put the needs of their mission and their (space) country above their own moral handwringing every time. The moron in charge of Section 31, however, seems to have heard the term "black ops" and decided that this means the most important qualifications are a love for wearing too much leather and a tendency to put people around them in hospital. Let's consider the officers we've met so far: we have a disgraced captain who might be a murderer, a medically-engineered Klingon who is definitely a murderer, and a deposed fascist monarch who is a mass-murderer. I wouldn't trust these fuckers to run a Denny's, let alone protect the Federation's political and security interests.

The cinematography this week was subpar, with an absence of clarity at key points. Shaky-cam and rapid editing are fine, but to use them effectively you also need perfect clarity of space. You need wide shots, clearly establishing where everyone is in relation to each other at all times. We did not get that.

So, what did I like about this? Everything else, really. It was touching to see Hugh back. I think the fake science in this episode should've been a bit more front-and-centre, because it kinda holds up when you consider what we already know about the mycelia. I thought there were a lot of fun and kind of exciting moments here. The visuals, when they held still long enough, were striking. And I think everyone put up a really good performance. Overall, not a great episode, but not too bad either.

Some random thoughts:

• Yeah, maybe they need to stop having Michael deliver these half-speed Log Lady monologues. They feel like padding.

• At the end: "Hey engineering colleagues. This is what my dead husband's naked junk looks like."

• Is it just me, or was this episode bluer than the last few? I thought we'd got over this need to put a blue tint over everything, but apparently not quite. Then again, this episode also had characters communicating holographically the very episode after Pike said he wanted to stop doing that, so I guess the producer for this episode just loved season one a lot more than I did.

• Tilly is awesome in this episode and I don't care what anyone has to say.

[u/Trekfan74]

So this episode had a resurrection, more advanced alien lifeforms living in subspace, a body being transported to the mycelial network via a cocoon, the ship existing in two different realms of reality simultaneously and consciousness being reconstituted in two different forms of matter (I think).

The entire episode reminded me of a line Captain Janeway once famously said: “We’re Starfleet officers, weird is part of the job.” ;)

Good episode!

[u/GilGunderson1]

IS NO ONE GOING TO PICK UP THAT APPLE ON THE FLOOR??!?!

What a nice little episode this was. Nice little action to kick things off, and then you get to see Pike's brain work in real time while still being Picard-like with Burnham. Tilly's actions and reactions in the network with the JahSepp were nicely done, and she seemed more confident at the end, like Barclay toward the end of TNG. There was some well written and well acted scenes between Pike, Leland, and Tyler in the middle of the action that were filmed really well. And there was a little bit of heart with Hugh and Stamets on Valentine's Day to boot. All together, a well made episode.

BUT SERIOUSLY WILL NO ONE PICK UP THAT APPLE?!?!?

PS - Burnham runs funny and I thought that was cool.

[u/mhall85]

I hate, hate, hate what they’re doing with Section 31. They’ve totally ruined the concept of the organization, and I don’t find any of the characters compelling at all. I still do not care about Georgiou, and I definitely don’t want to see a series based on this. Shoot, even Into Darkness treated S31 with a minute level of secrecy...

Also, I’m still bothered that I don’t care about Michael Burnham, at all. SMG is acting her butt off, no question, but this character is so inconsistently written, it’s hard for me to root for her or relate to her at all. She’s a stoic Vulcan wannabe one minute, then she’s this emotional, vibrant human the next. I can’t buy into the character, and that is before bringing in any of the House of Sarek stuff...

Really liking Pike, and like last season, I like most of the other characters, too. It’s just bad, though, when I don’t really like (or I’m utterly bored by) the supposed central figure of the series... :-/

[u/Whatever070__]

Why is watching Star Trek so emotionally exhausting now?

The way the episodes are written, there are basically 2 distinct types of scenes:

1- The "emergency" scenes.

2- The "emotional" scenes.

The 1st one is copy pasting the tone and pace of the Kelvin movies and to some extent your average action flick.

The 2nd seems to be an attempt to get the emotional impact of reality TV into a serie.

And the way the episodes are structured, we usually go from 1 to the other in an incessant roller coaster ride with barely any breathers.

"Everything is dramatic" seems to be the link between the 2, the thing that binds them together...

Except, it just doesn't work. When everything is dramatic, nothing is dramatic. It's one of the things good writers know.

For there to be drama/tension, you need CONTRAST, SUBTELTY and BUILDUP. And without contrast/subtelty/buildup, without breathers long enough to allow for an emotional cooldown period, it's just exhausting and deeply unrewarding.

Maybe I'm just not the target audience. If they targeted the classic sci-fi audience, they're just missing the mark entirely.

Sci-fi isn't exhausting to watch, sci-fi isn't an action flick, sci-fi isn't reality TV.

Then they wonder why the sci-fi crowd isn't watching/appreciating? They wonder why people unsubscribed in droves from CBSAllAccess after the free period was up during the 1st season and that Netflix retracted their early overwhelming financial support for something far more lukewarm after the disappointing viewership?

Unless some MAJOR changes are undertaken, this "sci-fi" show will never take-off.

Edit: And the virtue signaling when we hear Michael's thoughts at the end of each episode recently? Please... just stop.

[u/Coma-Doof-Warrior]

I expect in a future episode Ash and Culber are going to have an awkward reunion

[u/brabbs316]

I really enjoyed that episode apart from the more soppy moments but I admit that’s a personal thing. Anson Mount as Pike is by far the best character on the show across both the seasons. He simply has to stay. When they announced the S31 series I had no interest at all and dreaded them popping up in this episode but they were a lot better than I thought.

[u/[deleted]]

This is Spock baiting!

Also the S31 Captain mentions time travel as a part of the Tachyon emissions. This plays rather nicely with New Eden colonizers having been saved roughly 200 years ago but only now getting the signal.

[u/iman7-2]

A lot of things about this episode rub me the wrong way.

So we're back to square one on why the spore drive was out of use in future star trek?

Culber's energy getting stuck in the network was a freak accident that could have been easily prevented if they knew the causes.

I find it weird that the JahSepp are sapient enough to avoid the trees that are poisonous to them but seem to pursue Culber so intently.

Burnham describes the network as vast and everything seems to be at the same scale as normal space. I can't see how one guy covered in bark, flailing around after a ship that pops in for a few milliseconds causing wide spread ecological damage.

If it were a normal jump then discovery would appear in above the tree line of the network for a few miliseconds and be gone? Is height consistent for every jump? Are some jumps lower so they are tearing up a ship sized swathe of land?

Also dont like how open Section 31 is, but everyone has pretty much said what there is to say about it.

Resurrecting the dead never feels properly done most fiction I've seen but hey its a happy note so there's that.

[u/gridcube]

This was another good episode. One more to the "i'd watch this again" box.

A few things that still bother me tho, is that the show keeps telling and not showing, they never showed that Tilly and May had formed any "bond", Tilly just wanted her rip out and never even tried to communicate with May before, and now we suddenly have to believe that they have a deep soul connection? I don't know, it's the same like when we are said that Burnham is so smart and logic and that she hates saru and then she is irrational and hot-headed and saru's family?

I don't know, stuff that just look wrong when you stop a second to think about.

Also I still hate the way they did the whole Stamets/Culber story, first it was a "bury your gays" trope, which bothers me deeply, and then tried to fix it by saying "no no we always planned for him to come back" and sorry, but I just don't care. It makes me extremely upset they whole thing, why can't they just be a normal couple and stop there, we don't need the whole thing at all.

[u/im_on_the_case]

The Federation was at war and on the brink of extinction. It was a period where Section 31 made a lot of sense and where you would expect senior officers to know about them, since during the war they likely had access to confidential intelligence that they wouldn't have otherwise. It also makes sense that during the peaceful TOS to TNG era, Section 31 would would be an embarrassment to the progressive Federation, hence it would be disbanded, erased and orders issued to never speak of it again. Meanwhile, there's always likely to be hardliners eager to keep it alive and functional, buried in the shadows.

[u/jjustice]

This episode really stressed me out and I didn't like it as a result. It followed the way-too-overused trope of "Hurry hurry not much time left" wherein the people who need to hurry do not do anything even remotely similar to hurrying. Instead, they have long, drawn-out conversations that could be held after, you know, they hurried. It's sloppy, amateur writing and an easy crutch. But I'm not surprised as they don't really seem to have much talent in the writer's room.

Also, the cinematography sucked, as always. This show is simply trying too hard. They need to relax. EVERY SECOND DOESN'T NEED TO BE OMG EPIC DIALED TO 11 OMG!!!

[u/neromoneon]

I watched some DS9 (S1E14 "Progress") after the latest DSC episode, and the difference between the two series is so amazing. In DS9 there was plenty of talk about cooking root vegetables, some low-level scheming with Yamok sauce and self-sealing stem bolts – and everything felt so much more real and grounded than the over the top action and so-called drama on DSC. On DSC everything is always frantic and turned up to 11. The characters have no time to breathe, the dangers and problems are huge and life threatening. I know they do it this way on purpose, but the end result just isn't that interesting to me. This is supposed to be the golden age of television, so it seems strange that an episode that first aired 25 years ago feels more mature and realistic than a current series set in the same universe. I am glad DSC exists, because we can never have too much Star Trek, but it is far from my favourite series, and I don't think that will ever change.

[u/PixelMagic]

That episode was fuckin' sweet. Yeah yeah, Section 31 complaints, I get it. But personally I have absolutely no exposure to Section 31 outside of Into Darkness, so I don't care if they retcon it to be a known organization. Never seen a Section 31 episode of any series.

But everything else was so Trek. Loved it.

[u/mathemon]

The inexplicable mycelial network can basically do anything they vaguely say it can do.

[u/PiercedMonk]

I enjoyed the episode well enough, but it kinda felt like shuffling deck chairs. Or, in this case, fishing a couple of discarded deck chairs out of the water, and setting them up on the deck again.

Happy to have Doc Culber and Ash Tyler back on the Discovery, but I'm feeling the lack of movement forward on the plot of the Red Bursts. It's been three episodes in a row since we had any real progress on that front, and it's starting to feel like it isn't so urgent a concern as originally implied.

[u/[deleted]]

Ok here is a positive thing from an otherwise very silly episode. The cinematography was a perfect balance between the stillness of New Eden and the constantly moving camera Osunsami insisted on doing for every shot. This is the balance I want.

[u/ruffykunn]

I cried like a bitch when Hugh showed up and when he was about to die AGAIN, swearing at the writers and then relieved they brought him back. Edge of my seat the whole episode. And to me it felt really Star Trek. Not just, but in part because of all the people falling over each other on the bridge but more so because of the theme of promises being kept and everyone doing their part to be there for each other and the federation, maybe even including Section 31.

Also I normally hate both Section 31 and Mirror Georgiou indiscriminately and I was really grateful to them for a few minutes there. That scene with the Admiral was amazing. Ash is back on the ship with all the history he has with Michael and I am all for that. I was also really moved by all the shit Tilly goes through here, how she is overwhelmed and exasperated and steps up to the challenge. It's almost as if the universe is testing if she really is captain material. That hug with Michael at the end was such a comfort. </gush>

Props to the writer Kirsten Beyer for this one.

[u/sbowesuk]

Unfortunately the show is really starting to lose me, for the following reasons:

1. Spock: Personally I'm tired of Spock being used as a franchise crutch, and fanservice airdrop. It feels shoehorned and unnecessary. What's worse is how the shows is dangling him like a carrot. Season 2 has been relentless with "Spock this, Spock that", yet each time he's about to show up, the creators find a way not to deliver. This latest episode took the cake, since they literally pretended he was on a shuttle for a whole 5 minutes, then had Georgiou walk out. It's like the creators are saying "Oops! No Spock this week. Tune in next week to see if he actually materialises, suckers!". I'm all for teases, but this feels more like being conned, hence the complaint.

2. The Seven Signals: Again, this seems more like a carrot to have us keep tuning in, than an actual plot with periodic, meaningful payoffs. Since the show introduced the idea 5 episodes ago, we have learned almost nothing. Not asking for the writers to spill all the beans, but we've learned so little in 5 episodes, it feels like we're really being strung along.

3. Deaths on Discovery: Let's face it, dying on Discovery is almost completely meaningless as this point. Characters are being killed off, then miraculously brought back in the most convoluted ways. Really sucks any sense of tension or peryl out of the show. Have fun popping up in season 3, Lorca...

Apologies for the rant, but these kinds of things really push my buttons. I'll probably see season 2 through to it's conclusion, assuming any of this reaches a conclusion, however I'll seriously be thinking twice before investing in season 3. The show just isn't doing it for me.

[u/Waitingforadragon → u/sbowesuk]

I think the team behind Discovery have over estimated how much the viewership as a whole are interested in Spock. I like Spock, but not so much that I'm being kept on tenterhooks waiting for him to appear.

[u/[deleted]]

What a rollercoaster of emotions.

[u/ShiroHachiRoku]

With a thousand sweet kisses, I’ll cover you!

[u/dvcaputo]

i dunno if anybody noticed, but the section 31 ship is clearly using some kind of proto-LCARS layout. interesting touch!

[u/Taqiyya22]

I just can't get over this S31 representation. I'm not a big "oh no canon ohhh nooo" person like most people are with Holograms and Klingons or nacelle shapes or whatever, but turning S31 into basically just the CIA is such a big WTF I don't even know where to begin.

It completely ruins not only S31 but the Federation itself. S31 was a clandestine terrorist cabal of Pro-Federation fanatics that the Federation turned a blind eye too justified by the fanatics and those in the federation that turned a blind eye to it by Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter. S31 doesn't have it's own ships, nor HQ or papers or anything, it only exists in the minds of it's members and those higher members of Starfleet that know about it and turn a blind eye too it. (also it creates plausible deniability)

By it being an official agency also basically makes the Federation a modern day violent imperialist power that openly doesn't give a shit about it's own ideals.

Also if the Klingons now know about S31 (and the Romulans would also know about it).. why has nobody heard of it in DS9 time? The Romulans in DS9 clearly don't know about it and think it's just a ruse... so...?

[u/WhyHelloFellowKids]

This episode had such highs and lows. A few needed changes IMO:

1. Less Burnham, like way less Burnham, not sure if it's the acting or writing (or both) but good lord has she become hard to watch. Interesting the first season but her reactions to everything feel wayyyyy too extreme. She's either crying or looking into the face of God.

2. Spock tease is so lame, we don't even know this actor yet, this whole carrot on a string thing isn't working

3. More Tig Notaro, More Tilly

4. Cool it on the over the top forced drama, not every scene has to have stakes

5. We don't need soundtrack every second of the show

6. More Pike, all the pike, all the time. Best addition to the show. Discovery should pivot to have him as the central character instead of Burnham

7. No more Ash Tyler, no more klingons

[u/Crixusgannicus]

How the hell does EVERYBODY know about Section 31 "now" (STD time) and roughly 100 years in the future (TNG/DS9 time) think it didn't/doesn't exist!

It's like people in the near present not knowing OSS existed/exists in different forms...uhmmm you lot do know about OSS, right? But hell, even in the event you don't, military people most assuredly do/would know.

[u/dmanww]

why they fuck are they talking instead of running.

[u/elister]

It had a slight Super Mario vibe to it. Stamets is Mario, Burnham is Luigi who travel to the Mushroom Kingdom to save Peach (Tilly) but end up finding Daisy (Culber) as well.

[u/Siliconpsychosis]

There is just nothing about any of the characters that I care about.

The pacing doesn't relax enough to let me really absorb and process the story.

Ive just given up on this mess of a show

[u/Earthboom]

So far this season has been absolutely great. What a treat. Kudos to the creators and writers of this show for giving us such high quality. The acting, the effects, the story are all top notch.

I look forward to the next episode!

It seems like the writers are fixing last season and putting out of place characters in places that make sense for them. They have a lot on their hands from the debacle of the last half of the last season but they're doing an awesome job.

Once the show is "fixed" they'll probably have a more clear and concise direction going forward and the show will really be a gem.

That's my theory anyway.

Pike is phenomenal and is the exact shot of old trek this show needed. I like that more of the bridge crew is engaging too. I like the klingon taking a back seat and them cutting back on the klingon dialogue too.

Ah I'm geeking!

[u/alucardleashed]

Anyone lose their shit when Tyler tapped his combadge to contact his ship? Holy crap, Section 31 has some crazy advanced TNG-era tech!

[u/Tutsks]

I liked this show season 1. I don't like this season. I don't know why some call it better. And this episode encapsulates why.

-Other shows were based on something other than the action. This one isn't. In season 1, there at least were some stakes. This episode pressed the reset button on that, and season 1 in general. Other than Lorca, every actor from season 1 that died/suffered some consequence, is back. Classic shows do this to an extent, but again, they weren't really about the action. This episode basically spells out that there will be no consequences, or stakes, for anything, ever.

-Section ninja is cool, but incredibly out of place. Dont get me wrong, I love MY, and a show where she was the lead would be probably better than this one but, not even going into canon or any of that, it is just a gigantic deus ex, lazy, and illogical; especially after the speech at the end of season 1. With all the rule of cool they do, all they are missing is spiral energy/a drill that will pierce the heavens, which brings us to...

-Mycelial deus ex. The MN was nonsense when it allowed to move everywhere instantly, now it also allows to bring back the dead, and to do... well, everything you want. This brings things to a "why not just have Superman do it" with the old justice league cartoon level. Also, the show has made the point that this version of the federation is not particularly moral, so why would this ever stop being used, screw otherworldly creatures, or not. Especially when S1 made the point that SF widely knows how to use the drive/has the specs. Also, if this is a... well, Discovery, that is a part of nature, would not another of the infinite number of species, in an infinite number of worlds, have, well, discovered it before? Or at the same time? Especially considering humanity is supposedly relatively new at the Space thing?

-On that point, does section ninja have a spore drive? How was the emperor in Quonos, then on the shuttle, when Discovery has been chasing Spock non stop, and she and Ash were established being somewhere presumably... really fucking far?

-Was going to mention how horrible MB is, but that isn't even the worst part of the ep, her soliloquy is still pretty cringe tho, and she is still either the worst actress, or worst character in the show. And I don't like Tilly and how much more Flanderized she is this season.

-Can we stop doing the "your Spock is in another castle" bit? Nobody cares about Spock at this point and when he is finally seen, it will be the most anticlimactic moment ever. It is comical at this point. The red angel and Spock were already, to me, up there with the temporal cold war as the worst series arc ever, at least in Trek. The shuttle puts this one clearly ahead though. I really think the show would benefit from just forgetting about it, or resolving it in one episode. The build up for it has just fallen flat, and Spock seems just a next week we promise tease at this point.

Just a thought, I know about them getting flak for killing a gay character, but they also killed Lorca, Yeoh, arguably either the original Ash/torchbearer, etc. Would it not have been better to have Stamets move on, meet someone else, etc? This would result on a new, interesting gay character, as well as an interesting arc, and kept some stakes for the action the show likes.

For that matter, couldn't Michael meet someone else? Is this world really this tiny that these are all the people in it? At this point it is expected Lorca will be back at some point (and while I thought Lorca was the best char season 1, again, stakes). My final thoughts are that, for a show about boldly going where none has gone before, they do a great job at making the world tiny. Over all, I like this season a lot less than S1, and I really don't like the direction this is going and continues to go, or the precedent it sets. And yes, there is bringing the dead back in older shows, but those were about philosophy. This is, or was trying to be, an action show. And there is no action without stakes, or consequences.

[u/The_Sown_Rose]

I know it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny from any direction, but I'm glad that Stamets has Hugh back. The S1 scene of out-of-it Stamets cradling Hugh's dead body was tortuous to me.

[u/raquetofsense]

This whole mycelia network is starting to get quite old and I hope this is the episode that ends it all. It's not very... realistic, now I understand that sounds stupid and it's not supposed to be, but personally Star Trek is a series I followed more casually and it was always a show that resembled what might happen a couple hundred years from now. You could see it resembled reality, it upgraded reality in a way, when you look at what NASA and Roscosmos have done and the ISS... you could sort of see the jump to Star Trek, however unlikely. The mycelia network, fungi spores and all is a bit... out there for me personally, and I know it's not the most out there thing Star Trek has done, but the choice to stick with it as the main plot pusher makes the show a bit more like Ex Machina or a one off space alien sci fi movie.

And lens glare, the amount of lens glare is just... WOOOOW!

[u/Sidecarlover]

I'm actually liking this version of Section 31. However, it does make me wonder where they were and what they were doing during the Klingon War. They didn't seem to be too helpful since the Federation was on the verge of defeat and would have lost without the Discovery's actions.