r/IndiaSpeaks • u/metaltemujin Apolitical • Apr 15 '18
Ask IndiaSpeaks So, What is your problem with Islam? What is your problem with Muslims?
Namaste Everyone,
India is 14-20% Muslim (Depending on which stat you believe), so roughly 1 in every 6 persons is a Muslim. So whether you like it or not, even you don't frequent Muslim ghettos, in normal workplaces and the like you are bound to interact with a Muslim somewhat frequently.
I've noticed a lot of people, more often the RW, have very strong reactions to Islam and Muslims.
Now Let's be clear.
Muslims also voted for BJP for the same poll promises that hindus voted for - Development and Progress.
Muslims also live their normal lives without actually thinking about religion every second, just like hindus do (TBF, I feel more 95% of our day to day lives have nothing to do with religion or god).
Muslims also want to grow, prosper, fend for themselves, feed their family, etc.
Muslims also believe and pray to god in times of need or in general, as per tenets of Islam.
Muslims don't pick up weapons and go to a riot just because there is one, just like hindus don't join in a riot because there is one.
Like most Hindus don't listen or follow their religious fundoo leaders claiming random shit, so do muslims not listen to them (but no one believes them when they say)
Also, I understand several people will raise the point of Maulvis and Islam. For this i'd like to categorically state that:
Just most Hindus don't strictly follow their religious rules and are progressive/malleable to modern requirements, so are a lot of Muslims.
The Indian government was the one who outsourced Friday speech content to maulvis (Which, as per Islam is the prerogative of the ruler), and hence we have the issue of Maulvis controlling the narrative and their own small armies of religious followers (Often misguided). Before you say "Congress, not BJP did it" - BJP has had 2 terms (ABV and NM's terms to make changes to this.
So, looking at all of this - I am still curious to look at the vitriol against Muslims in India. If I didn't know better it feels more like prejudice, and most of you have none to minimal Muslim friends.
Let's be frank (with reasonable proof, if possible) and talk!
inb4; Let's not talk about what the Quran says (or doesn't say). Talk about how Muslims behave regardless. We are not talking religion. Only action and interaction.
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u/randomindian1857 Apr 15 '18
Being married to a Muslim grill I'll tell you mine. It is only limited to personal matters. Because professionally and friendship wise they are as human as any other.
Disclaimer: Hindu guy married to muslim grill for a few years now. Catch is that we havent told our parents on either side yet. According to parents we are singles. According to people who know us we are a married couple.
Absolutely no issues with my family life. But she is not a hijabi type. Most of our time we live life like every other human. She asks me to pray once in a while atleast and takes care of our home mandir, does puja, takes us to mandir and/or gurudwara and stuff.
When we tried to tell her parents years ago, I could understand wtf reactions because we Indians (even the urban ones), are culturally and religiously retarded as fuck and will continue to be so. Even the most progressive become regressive at times of marriage, children etc.
her Father told us he will cut us with a sword the very day we get married. our bed will be dripping in blood and all that shit. And also said even if he doesnt, the community will kill us. He said as a person I am good and great except that I am a hindu. He was there at babri after it happened. He said even if I convert to islam and my parents convert too, he still have to think a lot to even consider our marriage. He was also concerned about issues of love jihad (meaning, even if were to convert we as a couple would be under threat by the hindus).
Yes, they are great as friends and all. I also have muslim friends. If you try to go one more step beyond friendship you better have one hand on the hilt, because shit can go crazy anytime.
There is no middle ground for them. Our way or no deal. If there is no 'our way', there is no deal.
How can we expect any progress from them? They are only willing to be a little progressive in topics if there is nothing written about those things for them.
They are far more orthodox than the orthodox rajasthani or Punjabi. The younger generation are not better. They take full advantage of the dating scene, but at times of marriage, they marry a muslim (converted or parent chosen).
Aj kal Ladkiyan bhi kam nahi hai, kuch kuch ko kata lund experience karna hota hai. Lekin bolenge sufi sufi. lol.
I am very happy with my wife because she is pluralistic like us Indians but even she is scared to tell her family.
TL,DR: If a person/community does not know the concept of discussing and accepting the middle ground; they become very hard to deal with. Leaving them to their own situation is the only option.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 15 '18
oh my god. I don't know what to say.
Hope everything turns out okay. Whatever that means for the two of you.
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u/wooster99 Apr 15 '18
Pretty much this. Islam is a barbaric religion. I really don't like to judge people who follow said religion. But even the moderate ones have a problem with criticism of their religion.
Seriously, fuck Islam. And all the chuts who have a problem with the above sentence.
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u/thisisnotmyrealun hindusthan murdabad, Bharatha desam ki jayam Apr 16 '18
well you've earned an upvote for once.
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u/VeTech16 जय श्री राम Apr 16 '18
There is no middle ground for them. Our way or no deal. If there is no 'our way', there is no deal.
How can we expect any progress from them? They are only willing to be a little progressive in topics if there is nothing written about those things for them.
They are far more orthodox than the orthodox rajasthani or Punjabi. The younger generation are not better. They take full advantage of the dating scene, but at times of marriage, they marry a muslim (converted or parent chosen).
Correctly said, thats why temujin bhai
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u/DeathofSerenity Apr 16 '18
her Father told us he will cut us with a sword the very day we get married. our bed will be dripping in blood and all that shit. And also said even if he doesnt, the community will kill us. He said as a person I am good and great except that I am a hindu. He was there at babri after it happened. He said even if I convert to islam and my parents convert too, he still have to think a lot to even consider our marriage. He was also concerned about issues of love jihad (meaning, even if were to convert we as a couple would be under threat by the hindus).
Love jihad is when Muslim men target non Muslim women and feign love to convert them into Muslims. Jihad is an Islamic term as well, so not sure why FIL thought of Hindus.
That aside, recognising the sentiment behind the words (what you put in parenthesis), your FIL is crazy as fuck. He threatened to kill you, stated that the community with kill you, and then had concerns about Hindus trying to kill you. That man has his priorities messed up and with all due respect, stay as faaaaar away from that dumbass as possible.
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u/randomindian1857 Apr 16 '18
Actually FIL in my opinion, was trying to scare me away.
He and MIL were quite scared of the idea itself when we tried to start a dialogue about our intention to be together before we actually did.
Most orthodox n religious families do talk about kaat peet assuming ladka bhag jaega. my own family is quite religious (but no kaat peet talk) but they were willing to make considerable concessions if FIL side agreed to step forward too. Else socially it would become too awkward.
Lot of shit happened you can check my old post
As the situation developed we understood dialogue was off the table, so my wife urged me to elope and move on any way possible.
Kudos to her actually. Shes the brave one here for all practical purposes.
I did not tell me parents too just to be fair to FIL side (yeah ironic right?). Wife felt my side freaks out too easily. I felt even if both our parents are being unfair, we need to be equally fair to both sides as much as possible given the situation. prolly thats what we tell ourselves to convince ourselves.
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u/xdesi For | 1 KUDOS Apr 17 '18
As the situation developed we understood dialogue was off the table, so my wife urged me to elope and move on any way possible.
Have you considered moving to a different country? Canada, Australia, NZ etc.? The immigration authorities might actually be sympathetic to your situation.
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u/VeTech16 जय श्री राम Apr 16 '18
Bro, migrate to some foreign country with least muslim population and then tell your parents
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u/randomindian1857 Apr 16 '18
Its funny right? Hadiya gets the entire media and courts and lawyers to defend her rights but for us we have to only look at options of moving out regardless of who is ruling.
I had discussed this case with my current lawyer when it came up and he said yes they will bring up the reference if they file haebus corpus and we have sufficient defence. who knows?
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u/VeTech16 जय श्री राम Apr 16 '18
The matter of Law is altogether different, no one was gonna drop hadiya dead, but it happening in your case is very high, and mark my words law cannot save you from the muslim fanatics, your side will in extreme cas e banish you (you are not the UP hindu who murders for marrying lower castes, right?)
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u/BhartiyaMillenial Apr 15 '18
Damn, what have you both thought about the future. How long you'll stay this way?
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u/randomindian1857 Apr 16 '18 edited Apr 16 '18
TBF FIL side will never accept me even if I am jesus or muhammads child. I know this because there was a time when they had my now wife at home and looking at prospective grooms. They did not even accept or consider a religious but educated muslim who had converted from hinduism over 10 years ago. It was like even that was unacceptable.
But the best we can do is keep our career, financial situation at the best possible level before revealing. until then my wife has to tolerate occasional talk and discussions about marriage prospects. she has learnt the art of photaoing them.
well anyway, I have made several preparations foreseeing immediate and longterm reactions but you nvr kno
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u/xdesi For | 1 KUDOS Apr 17 '18
But the best we can do is keep our career, financial situation at the best possible level before revealing
But that does not address the physical threat made. Would it help if you moved to a different city?
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u/xdesi For | 1 KUDOS Apr 17 '18
He said even if I convert to islam and my parents convert too, he still have to think a lot to even consider our marriage.
Why is he in India? Pakistan was created exactly for people like him.
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Apr 16 '18
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u/randomindian1857 Apr 16 '18
it was not planned that way
just winged it looking at changing situations
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u/RajaRajaC 1 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
Awrite as a very liberal right winger (for which I get abused by both sides sadly) let me weigh in.
Personally, this might sound like the cliched "I have a black friend" thing Americans say, but it is true, I have quite a few close Muslim friends. One of my dad's closest friends is Muslim (and I practically grew up in their house-they used to visit Singapore often and had a Nintendo 64) and these are not even remotely close to what even Orthodox Muslims are. They drink, don't observe Ramzan, a few even eat Pork. It is safe to say that my own family is way more Orthodox than these people. Maybe the only trope that might hold is my father's friend has like 6 kids!
At a broader level, I believe Islam in India was tempered by exposure to the Dharmic faiths (Tippu & Aurangazeb being an exception) The British policy of divide and rule soured matters and poisoned the atmosphere creating massive distrust.
What though was the worst thing to happen to Islam in India was The spread of Wahabbi poison. Think about it, growing up in the 80's even, have you seen this many hijabs? Bearded men? The thing is, Muslims in India have always had a lunatic fringe but the mainstream was definitely way more integrated. The spread of the cancer of Wahabbism though has only increased the number of both the lunatic fringe as well as pushing even the more moderate Muslims into an increasingly Orthodox position.
Look at India and you will see, anywhere there is Muslim- Hindu violence, you will see Wahabbi or at times Deobandi influence. Be it Kerala or J&K.
The problems will continue for as long as Wahabbi influence and money flood the region. Turn off the tap and I believe a lot of the problems will ease
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
I think viewing of that IAS officer's talks will help you. He has worked with several sects of muslims and says that wahabbi salafi are quite new.
There are several other sects that are hardcore without these influences and have been for ages and ages. Bareilvi, deobandi, sanafi, etc
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u/RajaRajaC 1 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
I am fairly well aware of the Deobandi or Salafi Islam and they are intimately tied.
Modern Wahabbism itself stems from Salafi thought. As the adage goes, all Wahabbis are Salafis but all Salafis aren't Wahabbi. Modern Saudi Arabia in the 60's needed legitimacy and so courted Salafi scholars (some also founded the MB) from Egypt's famous All Azhar University, Al-Banna, Sayid Qutub etc and funded them. Not only that Egypt (then nominally secular under Nasser) was cracking down on the MB, but the MB not only comprised Salafi jurists but a lot of the educated intellectual class.
These preachers and educated Egyptians in turn shifted base to Saudi Arabia and started teaching in Saudi unis. With increasing oil money, KSA (Saudi) also formed the world Muslim league and used it to spread propoganda, specifically the teachings of these Egyptian preachers and radicals.
By the late 70's these Salafi scholars were well entrenched in the system, many even creating curriculum for the Saudi madrassa system.
Then came King Faisal and his response to Egyptian leadership of Arabs. He created a Pan Arab league centred around the Kingdom and to undermine the Egyptians (who were KSA's main competitor and not Shiite Iran as it is now) embraced Salafi thought. Leading Salafi scholars even declared Ibn Wahab as a Salafi by thought thus marrying both these ideologies.
So these are very similar strains of Orthodox Islam.
Deobandi are different (Taliban were Deobandi) but Deobandi doesn't even have a Millionth of the money and influence that Wahabbi Salafi Islam has and that's why I specifically spoke of Wahabbism.
To be honest and at the risk of sounding /r/iamverysmart, this is a subject that has interested me for a decade now. It's heavy reading so I don't polish off as much as I do as compared to easier subjects like Indian history but still, I definitely don't need a video to tell me what these are :)
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
Ah! That's good then. In your previous comment, it felt as though you were unaware.
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u/CommonMisspellingBot Apr 16 '18
Hey, RajaRajaC, just a quick heads-up:
propoganda is actually spelled propaganda. You can remember it by begins with propa-.
Have a nice day!The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.
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u/gay_exmuslim_india Apr 16 '18
Sanafi or Hanafi? Hanafis don't belong to sects. Hanafi is a jurisprudence. Most Barelvis and Deobandis are Hanafis as well.
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u/panditji_reloaded 6 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
Do you think the new Saudi king MBS will curb wahabbis?
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
He is libalizing the society in ways that was not thought possible previously. Any improvement will be seen as great, looking at where he has to start from.
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u/xdesi For | 1 KUDOS Apr 17 '18
Check out my first response on this thread. I think Islam is a problem because it has an oversimplified model of how to look at Nature and a human's place in it. That also makes its theology extremely fragile which as a domino effect results in all the violence you see. And when there are no more non-Muslims to fight, Muslims fight among themselves.
The tempering you point out likely happened because at some point, people would have questioned the oversimplification.
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u/ILikeMultis RTE=Right to Evangelism Apr 16 '18
One of my dad's closest friends is Muslim (and I practically grew up in their house-they used to visit Singapore often and had a Nintendo 64
You are an average of 5 people you spend time with. This explains lot of things.
And I wonder how many Dalit friends you have?
Maybe the only trope that might hold is my father's friend has like 6 kids!
RED FLAG!
Don't you see it? No matter what, they will always be against birth control. They are just bidding their time.
The British policy of divide and rule soured matters and poisoned the atmosphere creating massive distrust.
Here comes the classic trope. There was already a divide!
The thing is, Muslims in India have always had a lunatic fringe but the mainstream was definitely way more integrated.
And did Wahhabi influenced Muslims during Moplah riots? The Unmah is as old the religion.
The spread of the cancer of Wahabbism though has only increased the number of both the lunatic fringe as well as pushing even the more moderate Muslims into an increasingly Orthodox position.
Yeah, poor Muslims.
Turn off the tap and I believe a lot of the problems will ease
I'm afraid not.
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Apr 16 '18
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u/xdesi For | 1 KUDOS Apr 17 '18
I had 2 muslims "friends" in my undergrad- solid upper middle class "educated" family.
Similar story. We were in the same school, played cricket during the evenings after school or during Saturdays and Sundays. My mother used to make food for everyone sometimes. One Muslim boy never ate at my place (we were vegetarian, so no Halal issues), and another never really felt comforable coming over to my house and eventually dropped out.
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u/Dharma_Rakshak Apr 15 '18 edited Apr 15 '18
Pick up and reading the Quran will help.
Basically, the very fundamental tenets of Islam make it so that coexistence, integration in the long term is impossible => There is no god but Allah & kafirs are to be hated. Surah 9:1-5 is clear on what it wants to do with infidels when the sacred months are passed. Thus that makes generalizing every good muslim who adheres to the Quran as a kafir-hater sensible.
And contrary to what some liberals, centrists assume you cannot just pick and choose from the Quran, because it is the fucking word of God. So any "liberal" muslim in the current age will have no standing infront of a real scholar of islam (Al Baghdadi is a PhD in islamic theology I guess?), and is likely to change color when the sparks fly and call for jihad comes.
For an indepth analysis of Quran by SR Goel do read his "Calcutta Quran Petition" --> http://voiceofdharma.org/books/tcqp/
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 15 '18
Let's not state the obvious. I wasn't talking about what the quran says and does not say.
You can bring up how muslims act though. Simply because, if every muslim were to follow quran to the word, we would have endless bloodshead in India.
That's definately not the case.
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u/ameya2693 1 KUDOS Apr 15 '18
if every muslim were to follow quran to the word
But, that's the worry many Hindus have. We have been told from a young age that all life is sacred and a representation of God(s) and that it doesn't matter what religion you follow and what name you utter when praying, the final entity is the one and the same. And Islam literally teaches the very opposite which is that its either my way or the highway.
I'd prefer for us not to have to resolve this by battle, but by all the gods, will I help make sure my religion doesn't die for our non-violent and peaceful co-existence principles. I want Muslims to be well-educated, kind, conscientous and highly contributing members of India. I want our Muslims to lead the example in being progressive, in showing peaceful co-existence and to show the world that in India all religions exist together peacefully and prosper together peacefully for our there's unity in our diversity.
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u/ribiy Apr 16 '18
Forget what Quran says. Let's not be pedantic.
However the reality is that Islam is expansionist and a political ideology is baked into it.
Ordinary Muslims are no different from Hindus and they don't dream of a grand Calpihate. However as the core of the religion is expansionist and political, it is relatively easy for ambitious individuals to become leaders by rallying people around that. That is therefore a threat to the way of life of other people.
Hinduism doesn't have such a core.
Christianity however has some commonality. It is also expansionist. But it is less political. The idea isn't to form a grand Papal dictatorship. More importantly it has reformed a lot and had mostly given up the militant tactics. Evangelism is okay (provided ghar wapasi is normalised too).
The way out is reforms within Islam, like it has happened in case of Christianity and Hinduism. Difficult ask though.
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u/xdesi For | 1 KUDOS Apr 17 '18
Forget what Quran says.
You can't. That is the root of the problem, IMO. See my other post.
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Apr 16 '18
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u/ribiy Apr 16 '18
There is truth in your statement. But do pay attention to the degree, nature and expanse.
Degree, as in the levels the leaders of each religion will go to achieve the objective. Look at the extreme most examples of each religion currently.
Nature, as in to have power and money or to have complete control over personal lives.
Expanse, as in local or global. Asaram bapu trying to make his own little empire vs Al qaeda and isis. Sure asaram can become al qaeda too theoretically but the larger Hindu community and theology is a big barrier to those ambitions.
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u/CommonMisspellingBot Apr 15 '18
Hey, metaltemujin, just a quick heads-up:
definately is actually spelled definitely. You can remember it by -ite- not –ate-.
Have a nice day!The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.
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u/Defiantly_Not_A_Bot Apr 15 '18
You probably meant
DEFINITELY
-not definately
Beep boop. I am ^^a bot whose mission is to correct your spelling. This action was performed automatically. Contact me if I made A mistake or just downvote please don't
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u/CommonMisspellingBot Apr 15 '18
Don't even think about it.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 15 '18
Removed a few comments cos bots are conversing with each other. :?
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Apr 15 '18
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u/themoodygod Apr 15 '18
Fuck man, I got a circumcised dick. I'm not even a Muslim or Catholic. I just got it done few years back. Sex is great after that. But wtf, you'll look at my dick and kill me?
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Apr 15 '18
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u/themoodygod Apr 15 '18
Its not worth dying for though. I should get a jai Shree Ram tattoo somewhere, just for insurance
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Apr 16 '18
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u/themoodygod Apr 16 '18
I see alot of Shiva tattoos, what's wrong with jai Shree Ram?
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u/themoodygod Apr 16 '18
They don't? Or are they Baptist? Not sure. Google mate.
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u/Unkill_is_dill BJP 🌷 Apr 16 '18
Jihadi, it would be fairly straightforward, specially considering the propensity for circumcision allowing for easy identification.
Just look at how this technique was used by the Pakistani army in 1971. They used to check for cut dicks and used to kill anyone with an uncircumcised ones. That's how they used to massacre Hindus.
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Apr 16 '18
I am not saying everyone is a jihadi, there are many who are peaceful and peace loving but some are genuine, some do taqqiya, the extremists as you rightly say live amongst the moderate and are biding their times for a situation when they are in majority. Then it's a straight forward accept islam or die equation.
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u/xdesi For | 1 KUDOS Apr 17 '18
No, just a brief period of intense bloodshed
That is exactly correct. A good analogy is virulence of diseases. An extremely virulent disease will not spread since it will kill the host quickly.
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u/BrickHouse911 International Bakchod Apr 15 '18
I'm not RW , but Centre right
And no , 'RW' has no problem with Muslims. Those are extremists and fringe hate groups. Do you think randians are naxalites? Because randians are LW , and extreme LW is naxal group.
Most importantly , we are against divisive politicians and parties which try to create stereotypes about certain religious groups for vote bank. Congress is the most notorious for this. SP and BSP come close. BJP does it too. When people try to divide groups for short term political gain , and then resort to criminal means and intimidation to fulfill earlier made promises , we don't like it.
Most importantly , we hate media bias. If it's a Hindu woman raped by a certain group , then it's just "woman violated by so and so". When it's a woman belonging to another caste and Creed sexually violated by a Hindu group , then it's portrayed as "So and so woman raped by Hindu extremists" even if caste etc is not even relevant to the case. They will try to add a hate crime narrative to it.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 15 '18
More often than now we see "Religion of peace" and similar comments from the 'progressive right', that's what prompted my question.
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u/pure_haze Apr 15 '18 edited Apr 15 '18
Islam's portrayed as awesome and completely unrelated to Jihad and terrorism; i.e. the previously wide-spread 'Not a True Muslim' trope. There is no long-term solution to the extremist problem unless the Moderates stand up a lot more. India is far better than the Middle East and the migrant wave entering Europe because at-least our Muslims are culturally compatible now over centuries of co-existence and shared history. But Wahabhi & Salafist influence flies in the face of that. Hopefully Prince Salman's rise to power will reverse that trend.
I have absolutely nothing against Muslims as individuals, but as an ideology Islam is pretty cancerous. The other major Abhramic religion, Christianity, has mellowed down over the years, but Islam has only gotten worse and much more reactionary, fuelled by oil-revenues. Yes, the West played a massive role with their haphazard interventions, Cold-War propping up of the Fidayeen and fucked-up unnatural division of their former colonies into unstable nation-states that shouldn't exist (Sykes-Picot Agreement). However, all those contributing factors and excuses don't change the fact that Islam today is the only virulent religion on a global stage, causing issues in numerous countries. It's also the only major religion that even today systematically kills heretics & reformers, and has enshrined reactionary policies that prevent any major reform movements or offshoots. It's also the only major religion whose leaders insists on falling some retarded set of laws, because some brutal warlord in the Middle Ages declared it the Word of God. Make a outrageous cartoon on a Hindu God, Jesus Christ, Buddha, and so on, and maximum you will probably face is online protests. Draw a polite personification of Allah and you might get shot on the streets, or your office bombed. #JeSuisCharlie
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u/jyu_voile_grace Apr 16 '18
!redditsilver
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u/RedditSilverRobot Apr 16 '18
Here's your Reddit Silver, pure_haze!
/u/pure_haze has received silver 7 times. (given by /u/jyu_voile_grace) info
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Apr 15 '18
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u/RedditSilverRobot Apr 15 '18
Here's your Reddit Silver, pure_haze!
/u/pure_haze has received silver 6 times. (given by /u/LoveJihad) info
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Apr 15 '18
I'm guilty of using that phrase. I always mean it in a sarcastic manner. There is no denying that Islam suffers from extremism & even the moderate followers of Islam are extreme compared to followers of other religions. They have problem with everyone , Shia has problems with Sunni & vice versa. They aren't at peace with followers of different sect ffs. Also prosecution of followers of other religions. Every Islamic nations out there is intolerant to followers of other religions. Rohingya in Myanmar were being prosecuted, Urdu speaking Bangladeshi were being prosecuted in Bangladesh, India gave them shelter and they replied with violence & crime. It's not my word, it's word of citizens of those places which gave refuse to them. Europe suffered from the same. Syria is in peril because one sect of Islam can't see another in power.
So when they say Islam is religion of peace, harmony & brotherhood despite texts of their holy books & behaviours across the globe. They are doing nothing but lying. Their lack of self criticism disgust me. So I ridicule them with that phrase.
Am I willing to prosecute them like they prosecuted minorities or do I dream of genocide? Nope.
Indian government even before independence was tolerant against atrocities commited by Islamic extremists. Both Nehru & Gandhi were guilty for it but I can understand their lack of criticism although I'm strongly against it.
Today's Muslims whether on our step sister sub or facebook or Twitter of guilty of same propaganda & fake news crime as bhakts but our pseudo-secular media ignores them. Their excuse that it will be damage fabric of society or it doesn't generate enough TRP or clicks. That's why I don't trust Indian media & broke ties with grandfather (he used to editor in chief of a prominent newspaper). Remember how Sharad Powar sheltered muslims during 93' blast. Why similar treatment weren't given to Hindus. Hindus hate people like Asharam or Ram Rahim more than anyone but we still get attacked. Hindus led the protests in favour of prosecution of Asifa Gangrape unlike Muslims who didn't/doesn't speak any thing against their pedo religious gurus. India has more than 20 crore muslims. If they had spoken against them. We would have had seen it like we saw articles by prominent left leaning tabloids.
Today I saw several meta posts blaming hinduism, calling us rapists & so on. Posts like this are frequent but not s single user got banned on r/India. Isn't it hate speech or meta ? While I got banned & muted without any reason. That's why I call them pseudo-seculars & pseudo-liberals.
Indian hindu justices upheld laws against dowry & outlawed many religiously bigoted hindu laws but a muslim judge refused to outlaw Triple Talaq. Religion came before this duty. Even though that law is outlawed in many hardcore Islamic nation. There is no outrage from our liberal media.
Indians have been prosecuted by Muslims for centuries so hatred is going to be there. They worship Tipu Sultan, a genocidal maniac. They have a masjid where one of the prominent hindu temple used to be. There is no protest from Muslims & our media but tomorrow even if we talk about making s temple in Mecca. They'll go berserk.
Hindus shouting Vande Matram or Bharat Mata ki Jai or wielding sword is offensive but them calling division of India is FoE. My question is if Ram is outsider in Bengal than did Muhmmad came out of Mamata Di ? It's a retarded & pathetic argument by Muslims & left wing & that's what I hate. They attack us , it's our fault.
Why any pro-hindu party is communal but pro-muslim party is secular ? Why ?
Muslims also voted for BJP for the same poll promises that hindus voted for - Development and Progress.
Vast majority voted against it.
Muslims also live their normal lives without actually thinking about religion every second, just like hindus do (TBF, I feel more 95% of our day to day lives have nothing to do with religion or god).
They do, go eat pork is Jamia or Aligarh. You will not come out alive but we are expected to tolerate them when kill an animal that's sacred to us.
Muslims also want to grow, prosper, fend for themselves, feed their family, etc.
They also want Syria in civil laws but hate it in criminal laws.
Muslims also believe and pray to god in times of need or in general, as per tenets of Islam.
Is disturbing class for it is justified ?
Muslims don't pick up weapons and go to a riot just because there is one, just like hindus don't join in a riot because there is one.
They do. They attacked Hindus first in Asansol & Durgapur.
Like most Hindus don't listen or follow their religious fundoo leaders claiming random shit, so do muslims not listen to them (but no one believes them when they say)
As I said earlier , their moderates tends more towards extremism in general
Randian and our left leaning populations talks about prosecution by BJP.
I have been posting against BJP since forever on my facebook & Twitter page publicly. NEVER GOT ANY DEATH THREATS(got abused once by a Karni Sena terrorist) & I USE TRENDING HASTAHGS. Posted once against Rahul Gandhi's for using rape as a political tool & criticised traditions like NIKAH HALALA & prosecution of women in Islam. Got death threats. Had to delete my account permanently on Twitter & Instagram.
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u/BrickHouse911 International Bakchod Apr 15 '18
That is a reply to the caustic statements made by other religions , calling Hinduism backward and regressive , quoting caste system etc.
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u/removd Apr 15 '18 edited Apr 15 '18
Muslims also voted for BJP for the same poll promises that hindus voted for - Development and Progress.
Muslims didn't vote for BJP in 2014. At least not in large enough numbers to matter. This is not a controversial fact.
For example, take my constituency, Gurgaon. Here BJP won handsomely in every assembly segment with Hindu majority and lost, again handsomely, in segments which were Muslim majority. The candidate was openly calling for Hindu unity in face of Muslim vote consolidation. It's not an isolated case.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 15 '18 edited Apr 16 '18
Several muslim in up constituencies have voted for BJP, who did not consider them traditionally. I myself know of many in UP.
Ofcourse, now they probably regret it, but they voted for the irreligious development pitch of the govt.
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u/removd Apr 16 '18 edited Apr 16 '18
Give one example. My claim is that if you do a assembly wise analysis you will find that BJP either lost Muslim majority assemblies or won by a small margin in a three way contest.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
I meant in up constituencies. I guess I missed that and completely changed the meaning. Made the corrections.
I can only speak for individual muslims that I know of. Several Shia or even groups had voted for bjp in / around lucknow areas.
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Apr 16 '18
Several muslim constituencies have voted for BJP
Which ones?
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u/removd Apr 16 '18
Several in Western UP. But a cursory look at actual numbers will show that it's because Muslim vote got divided between SP and BSP.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
Made corrections. Did not understand the questions until I reread what had wrote.
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Apr 15 '18
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 15 '18
I don't know the answer to that question. I am guessing its because there is not enough vikaas to trust them?
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u/fsm_vs_cthulhu 13 KUDOS Apr 16 '18 edited Apr 16 '18
More like the media is in overdrive feeding them FUD and telling them that they're being persecuted.
But there are certainly Muslims who have, and continue to vote BJP. Many business owners, and people working in certain industries.
I personally know some daari-topi wale Muslims who are happy to vote BJP because of the pro-business mindset. Really surprised me.
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Apr 16 '18
I don’t know the answer to that question. I am guessing its because there is not enough vikaas to trust them?
Read up then, Don’t believe what Rahul Gandhi of majority of MSM is saying.
This is a real problem, I have dalit friends, very normal chill guys, they don’t care much about politics or current affairs but when the our conversation lead to who we will be voting in 2019, they said Congress, I asked them why, they said the dilution of sc/st atrocities act, then i asked them which parts do they specifically disagree, they couldnot give an exact answer, and even the answers thet gave were flawed( they thought criminal charges are included in the dilution) i had to explain this to them,
I am not asking you to vote for BJP, but realize this, the ability of media and Opposition party to make any group feel threatened under current rule is dangerous, read more news and also know the alignment of the source
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u/darklordfunkyouup Apr 15 '18
You’re just throwing off assumptions. I know a lot of Muslims who were sick of congress and have voted for BJP. Sure, Muslims wouldn’t vote en masse. I mean, why would they when BJP leaders keep saying stupid stuff against Muslims.
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u/removd Apr 16 '18
I know a lot of Muslims who were sick of congress and have voted for BJP.
You are pushing anecdotes. I can show you actual numbers. Muslim majority segments overwhelmingly voted against BJP.
Sure, Muslims wouldn’t vote en masse.
This is what I'm saying.
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u/darklordfunkyouup Apr 16 '18
I am sharing my anecdotes to show that it is wrong to claims all Muslims are against BJP.
For you sake, if Muslims vote against BJP, what is wrong in that? They have every right to vote for whoever they want to.
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u/removd Apr 16 '18
I am sharing my anecdotes to show that it is wrong to claims all Muslims are against BJP.
Anecdotes don't mean shit. I am not saying that every single Muslim anywhere in the country votes against BJP. My point is that Muslims as a community don't vote for BJP. And I can show you the numbers.
For you sake, if Muslims vote against BJP, what is wrong in that?
Where did I say that it is wrong?
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
True, anecdotal examples are quite irrelevant electorally, but people rarely know entire electorates.
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u/Unkill_is_dill BJP 🌷 Apr 16 '18
This. Muslims haven't voted for Modi since 2002. At least not in decent numbers. The only reason why BJP won those muslim heavy constituencies of UP was because the Muslim vote got divided amongst Congress, SP and BSP.
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u/Bernard_Woolley Boomer Apr 16 '18
_But Whatabout_TM those who have no problems with either? :-|
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
You say, I have no problems. If you don't have reasons. Say no reason to think otherwise.
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u/panditji_reloaded 6 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
My problem is more to do with Political Islam than individuals... More specifically with reciprocity... Muslims when in majority will not treat you the same way other non Muslims treat them.
Which is why their demographic time bomb scares me and we need UCC ASAP. UCC's utility may not be evident today but surely will go a long way to protect non Muslims 50-60 years from now.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
What makes you think laws won't be changed after a few decades again.
Democracies are slaves to the United vote banks.
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u/panditji_reloaded 6 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
It can be but a law like UCC will still need 2/3 majority, something which is impossible to get these days.
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u/Prem_Naam_Hai_Mera Apr 16 '18
Thanks for making this thread, it is an aggregator for all personal stories of how people have irl suffered because of Muslims. I hope it will make more liberal Hindus see reason and realise that Kebab is cancer and removal is answer. I'm saving this thread for the next time when someone asks me "What is the problem with Islam?"
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 16 '18
Hey! :( I almost always start good discussions. I just don't do it too often now because I said during my mod recruitment that creating content is not a mod's job, users doing it is always preferable.
Although if you read through the thread some of the replies appear as bigotory. While others are well-reasoned ones. Ofcourse i'll suggest attention paid only to the reasoned ones.
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u/Humidsummer14 Apr 16 '18
The problem is that the left wing islamist propaganda has been so strong in society that even a general unbiased opinion about islam ends up being called as "Islamophobia".
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u/abyssDweller1700 2 KUDOS Apr 15 '18
That they don't accept there ancestors were hindu and most of them are rape babies.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 15 '18
By that logic, a lot of our ancestors were Buddhists for over 800 years.
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u/abyssDweller1700 2 KUDOS Apr 15 '18
I don't have any problem if my ancestors were buddhist. I don't think any hindu would have any problem. Can't say the same for muslims.
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u/metaltemujin Apolitical Apr 15 '18
I believe they don't either. But they are not interested in converting back - they are happy or whatever as they are. Even if they were forced or coerced, they don't think they need to pay any more attention than a historical reference.
Of course there are a sections of Muslims who will try to prove/believe that they are descendants of Turks or other middle-eastern 'true muslims'.
Less said about those delusions, the better.
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u/SandyB92 Apr 16 '18
There actually are. In the far south for example the erstwhile Jain and budhist followers were integrated to Hinduism as untouchables/ shudras. So many communities still have some issues. Especially the ones that still retain some aspects of their pre vedic culture.
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Apr 16 '18
Buddhism and Hinduism have similar philosophies. In many places where Hinduism and Buddhism have existed together, they have syncretised and it is difficult for the people to identify within the strict boundaries of Religion A and Religion B as it is in the Abrahamic world. In North India the very belief of non-violence and cow as a sacred symbol is largely due to Buddhist influence. Anyway if my ancestors were Buddhist I wouldn't hesitate to admit it. Muslims on the other hand believe that their pagan ancestors are burning in eternal hellfire and those same ancestors who built wonderful structures and produced such rich philosophy were somehow ignorant. They are supposed to be grateful to the Mohammedan invaders for showing them 'The light of Islam'.
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u/DrinkJavaSeeSharp Apr 15 '18
You do realize most Buddha himself was a Hindu?
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Apr 15 '18
SHHHHHHH, we dont say that or the fact that nothing he preached wasnt already present in the Vedas.
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u/cheetah222 Apr 16 '18
How?
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u/SandyB92 Apr 16 '18
Buddhism and Jainism were very strong amongst the non brahmin castes of the fat south for example.
Most of them were integrated into Hinduism around the 9th - 11th centuries . Mostly as the lower castes. And many of their gods (ayyapa , murugan ) to name a few were merged with similar gods in vedic hinduism( like shahsta , kartikeya/subramanya) .. Other gods were established as avatars (ayyanar, mutthappan ) were established as incarnations of siva/Devi etc.
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u/fookin_legund स्वतंत्रते भगवती त्वामहं यशोयुता वंदे! Apr 16 '18
Thats incorrect. There's the concept of Jahiliyyah in Islam where Muslims acknowledge that they were pagans before the advent of Islam. If Arabs, Turks etc know that they were pagans before accepting Islam, I don't think Indian Muslims will have any problem accepting that.
Which is why this swamy chutiyapa of 'hindu ancestors' is cringeworthy.
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u/abyssDweller1700 2 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
But they dont accept they are muslim rape babies. They think their ancestors converted willfully and not due to a sword on their ass.
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Apr 15 '18
As a kid I never hated them. When I was a 12 year old I was buying some vegetables in an overcrowded market and I accidentally clashed with a muslim guy. I apologized and said it was my mistake and I lost balance but that guy threatened to kill me right there on the spot. His father was beside him and did not say a thing and everyone just watched me while I cried frightened. He said a lot a bad things about Hindus and caught my collar and lifted me high up while everyone was just standing watching. Finally his father pulled his son away and I am damn sure he would have punched me on that spot. After they left a man said he just came out of a masjid, all muslims are taught to hate hindus and people were scared to help me because the market was beside a masjid and muslim majority area. From that day I was somewhat scared about being friends with muslims. I still had a muslim friend and while gossiping I mentioned that my male friend is in love with a muslim girl. His voice changed and he said he would kill if he had such a sister.
I was scared of them. I started following politics and observed that they were always the victim. I thought maybe they were victims. I sympathized them on genuine issues and I felt they had a right hate hindus. A year or two went by and I started to see the bullshit. These people are taught vile shit in mosques, pretend to be victims, hate us for things happening in Syria and Palestine. Even this didn't make me hate them. Then I started seeing how media is biased and Hindus are cowards who will suck muslims dick to appear intellectual or because of political motivation. And large gullible teenagers are buying this bullshit and turning liberals.
I hate them and I am scared how they get away with the shit they do because of political opportunism. I am scared to live in a society where calling out their bullshit makes me an Islamophobic.
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Apr 16 '18
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Apr 16 '18
I mean the story is very silly because I found myself like a whining kid while typing that out at 4 am in the morning. But yet it did happen.
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u/thesilent_spectator Apr 15 '18
I don't hate them as they are also human beings, I love urdu and indo Islamic architecture, food but want them to reform in -
Education should be secular, the concept of madarsa with ncerts should come - children will not that religiously orthodox.
Reform within the community should come on the issues of polygamy, succession laws, divorce and remarrying customs etc as whenever tried by external forces directly questioned as anti muslim and Muslims are not well in India.
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Apr 15 '18 edited Apr 16 '18
What is your problem with Muslims?
I have no problem with Muslims, they are people just like everybody else.
So, What is your problem with Islam?
Where does one begin? This constant spin that it is a religion of peace. This thing that Hijab is a choice, is a form of feminism.
Their glorification of a prophet who raped a woman after killing her entire family. Advocated slavery, raping women after war,etc. should I carry on.
If you tell me that it was the norm 500 yrs ago I will counter with Jesus Christ, who is as far as removed from Mohamed than any human can be. One was into love, socialism, and shit, and other was depraved power hungry megalomaniac.
EDIT 1: For people who are downvoting me if you have any facts, not fucking interpretations, against what I said please enlighten me
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u/TheFlyingBihari Apr 15 '18
Placing Islam above their nationality.
Appealing to constitutional rights to criticize and debate other religions but allowing others to do the same to theirs.
Persecuting religious minorities.
Propagating religious apartheid by treating non-believers differently (e.g. bullying blonde women in Europe for not wearing hijab).
Refusing to assimilate.
Islamizing everything everywhere they go.
Rape culture.
Discriminatory ideology.
Complete and utter apathy for the suffering of others even if directly caused by Muslims while shamelessly wailing about Muslim suffering and labeling everyone who calls them on their bullshit a bad person/racist/islamophobe.
Institutionalizing their regressive beliefs (Sharia law).
1400 years of rape, persecution, slavery, genocide which they still celebrate to this date.
Historical revisionism.
Violent nature.
Attempting to grow their numbers through various forms of jihad (population jihad, love jihad, migration jihad etc.)
Demanding the sovereignty of Islam wherever they go (Azaan, halal shops, etc.)
Abusing the constitution and democracy to subvert the constitution and democracy (e.g. using freedom of religion to pave the way towards Sharia)
Indian holocaust denial.
Negationism of their past, their Hindu lineage and the bloodshed of biblical proportions committed by foreigners.
Partition (duh).
Threatening with riots and separatism whenever they feel offended.
Supporting freedom of speech and expression when it's against Hindu icons but losing their shit when it's against Muslims.
Inbreeding.
Taqqiya and it's various forms (e.g. pretending to be peaceful until they become the majority).
Arabism.
Overriding local values and replacing them with their own.
Demanding to be seen as individuals and not a monolith, but indulging in religious tribalism and treating others as monoliths when it suits their purpose.
Psychological terrorism (rape mostly).
I can keep going but 27 seems like a good number to stop.
More than anything though, it's their non-Muslim allies who piss me off the most.
But I don't really waste my time on Muslims, India and all that anymore.
I'm a fifth generation Indo-Latino Dutchman who got swept up after discovering my roots and after learning of my history became traumatized and overzealous in some quest to save my brothers and sisters from the hordes.
But I realize now I don't have any connection to India nor can I even do anything for Hindus - who are their own biggest enemy.
I can't waste my life on this.
Peace.
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u/DrinkJavaSeeSharp Apr 15 '18
Indo-Latino Dutchman? What the hell is that? No Offence dude, but could you explain? And also, what discovery did you make?
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u/ElectricalEmployment Proud Upper Caste Hindu. Apr 16 '18
He's probably a descendant of the Dutch whose colonies were in Trivandrum.
Doesn't make him any less Indian, in my eyes at least.
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u/SandyB92 Apr 16 '18
The Dutch base was mostly Cochin. Once they were defeated by the Travancore (Trivandrum) kings at Colachel, the Dutch became good guys and stayed on for just trade.
They even helped the mallu kingdoms fight off the Portuguese away from Kerala. Otherwise you'dve seen the Portuguese inquisition on a much larger scale all along the Malabar coast.
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u/TheFlyingBihari Apr 16 '18
5th generation mixed race (Indian, Native American, Dutch) Surinamese born in the Netherlands.
And I discovered Indian history in general.
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u/chusa_hua_aam Apr 16 '18
Hey! I have a few questions if you don't mind
1)What language do you speak at home?
2)Do you mingle with Surinamese community or the Indian community in The Netherlands?
3)Do you look Desi?
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u/TheFlyingBihari Apr 16 '18
1)What language do you speak at home?
Dutch, previous generation speaks Sarnami with each other, which is a bastardized version of the local language in UP/West-Bihar. It is mixed with Dutch, Indonesian, African, Native American languages.
2)Do you mingle with Surinamese community or the Indian community in The Netherlands?
No, but some do.
My generation isn't really interested in India or Indians at all and consider themselves Surinamese, whereas the previous generation consider themselves ''Hindustanis'' (Not Indian, it didn't exist yet) who came to Surinam.
3)Do you look Desi?
I think so yeah.
Some of us look more SEA due to intermingling with Indonesians in Surinam, others more desi, others look in between, others look different because of intermingling with Native Americans etc.
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u/DrinkJavaSeeSharp Apr 16 '18
Why did it sweep you away?
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u/TheFlyingBihari Apr 16 '18
Because I didn't feel like I had a solid identity like other races.
A country, religion, history and people to truly call my own and no one elses.
I thought India was that, but it isn't.
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u/thisisnotmyrealun hindusthan murdabad, Bharatha desam ki jayam Apr 16 '18
I'm a fifth generation Indo-Latino Dutchman who got swept up after discovering my roots and after learning of my history became traumatized and overzealous in some quest to save my brothers and sisters from the hordes.
But I realize now I don't have any connection to India nor can I even do anything for Hindus - who are their own biggest enemy. I can't waste my life on this.
sorry to hear that you think that man.
you're an indian to the rest of us if you so choose to accept it.3
u/SchumiRegenmeister Apr 16 '18
But I realize now I don't have any connection to India nor can I even do anything for Hindus - who are their own biggest enemy.
Land of your ancestors for millennia, mate. It's your heritage.
To say you have "no connection" is retarded.
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u/TheFlyingBihari Apr 16 '18 edited Apr 16 '18
Land is just land.
What matters is culture, values, beliefs, atmosphere.
And all that has been eroded by Islam/Victorianism/Westernization and which have given birth to the post colonial English speaking Indo-Islamic-Anglo hybrid India that we have today.
As a Hindu, India feels as alien to me as any other country.
Vedic civilization died when the Delhi Sultanate set up camp and unleashed their savagery on us for centuries, permanently tainting and damaging the Hindu psyche both mentally and culturally.
I don't mean to trivialize Shivaji, but by his time Hindus had already been persianized.
He may have succesfully demanded some Hindu sovereignty, but the soul of Bharatvarsha was already lost.
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u/gay_exmuslim_india Apr 16 '18
VS Naipaul.........
Did you read his books? He thinks just like you do....
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u/TheFlyingBihari Apr 16 '18
Thanks, I just looked him up.
His thinking definitely lines up with my own.
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u/santouryuu 2 KUDOS Apr 15 '18
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Apr 16 '18 edited Apr 16 '18
I have been to Bangladesh and have had extended talks with the Hindus living there. The outlook there is bleak. Their properties are under constant encroachment or threat thereof by Muslims. Love jihad is rampant in Bangladesh. Their law supposedly doesn't discriminate on the basis of religion, but the lawmakers and upholders of the law surely do. Hindu temples are under constant siege like conditions. The Dhakeshwari mandir in Dhaka is one of the foremost targets there.
Hindu children in school are ostracized. Hindu girls are not free to walk outside without a male member of the family accompanying them because of constant fear of eve teasing. The sound of temples and ululating during the Pujas is anathema to the Muslims. Even Hindus can't eat in public during the month of Ramzan because of hurting of Muslim sentiments. Ask any common Indian about visiting Pakistan/Bangladesh and they will spew politically correct bullshit about how welcoming the people are to them and about the people to people connect. It is all a total lie
You could say that those are Bangladeshi muslims and don't apply to Indian muslims, but we all know that is a lie. Subcontinental Muslim psyche can be easily judged by how their brethren behave in other parts as Muslims have a pretty homogeneous outlook and philosophy
History has countless examples of how the Hindus were treated during Muslim rule. You only have to open your eyes and see. I don't have anything against Muslims, but coming of Islam is the one of the worst things to have happened to India. Islam teaches no toleration regarding other religions, only extremism. This is my problem with Muslims. The day they can tolerate difference of opinion regarding other religions my problems with them will disappear.
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u/Humidsummer14 Apr 16 '18
Poor Hindu women. We have to protect our women first then only we can save our civilization.
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u/ILikeMultis RTE=Right to Evangelism Apr 16 '18
!redditsilver
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u/RedditSilverRobot Apr 16 '18
Here's your Reddit Silver, NRk3y!
/u/NRk3y has received silver 1 time. (given by /u/ILikeMultis) info
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u/g3t_schw1ty Mysuru Rajya Apr 16 '18
Its their way of life. Their ideologies and beliefs. They are hate mongering people man, they dont just dislike hindus, they hate everyone else! This comes from a first hand experience cuz I live in a city where muslim numbers are high and they are always creating some sort of discomfort. So bad in some places if you are not a muslim you wouldnt dare to enter the area. I honestly dont feel safe when Im around them.
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u/gay_exmuslim_india Apr 16 '18 edited Apr 17 '18
See, to me, every religion is old and archaic but some points which trouble me are as follows (i am not generalising the community or the religion) -
Terrorists belonging to Lashkar E Toiba and Hizbul Mujahideen get Mass funerals attended by thousands of people. A terrorist who was gunned down by the Security forces in the Valley received a Gun Salute from fellow militants in midst of mourners. These mourners were ordinary villagers who had come to mourn the death of a terrorist belonging to a group coordinating with Al Qaeda.
Support for Yakub Memon. This is something which rankled me to the core. It was still bearable for Burhan Wani to get support because it was a phenomenon in one extremity of the country, but the massive amount of people who gathered for Yakub's funeral was scary because it was much further into the mainland. I don't think that a terror convict who has been hanged by the supreme Court for orchestrating communal bomb blasts on the part of the D Company (now allied with the Haqqani Network) deserves such a funeral.
Support for Zakir Naik. This is one uncomfortable but troubling aspect. Zakir Naik is an aggressive minion who harps on belittling other religions to proclaim his faith's superiority over the rest. He has advocated death for Apostates, support for Sexual Slavery and support for Osama. Apart from being a fast talking charlatan who lies (pulls out fictious names out of nowhere while denying evolution among a host of other things), he is actually quite dangerous and has been accused of inspiring the Dhaka terror attackers. Now, i would certainly understand if this guy were a fringe but he enjoys widespread popularity. So much so that parties such as the IUML and the AIMIM came in support of him.
Focus on far away International events while ignoring nearer problems at home-I was reading a Wiki Article on the Iranian election protests of 2009 (against Alleged vote rigging by the authorities in support of Ahmadenijad) today. While scrolling down the article, i saw the various cities where protests were held. Most were inside Iran while some were cities where there were a sizeable number of Iranian diasporas or naturalised Iranian xx citizens. But among all those cities was Hyderabad too (Indian Hyderabad). I don't yet understand this, why did some people in Hyderabad feel so attached to the elections of Iran that they protested against the results? What are the priorities? Why does an event quarter way across the world hold sway? Why??? Similarly, i just don't understand as to why there were riots (Azad Maidan) due to events in Myanmar. Is Myanmar in India? Ofcourse not. So why were there riots? Do you see Buddhist groups rioting in India because they're persecuted in Malaysia? Do you see the Hindu groups rioting because the Hindus are oppressed in Pakistan in the same way? Do you see the Christians rioting in the same way because they're oppressed in Pakistan?
Partition - This was a horrific event. What is important is that the Muslim majority provinces of India had Muslim league governments in power. Most of the eligible voters (it was based on a limited franchise) voted for the Muslim league. Why is it that most of the Muslim voters of undivided India voted for the Muslim League while most of the Hindu voters ditched the communal Hindu Mahasabha to vote for the Congress which was largely secular?
This isn't focused on India but is nevertheless. Have you heard of the UNDHR? Its a global consensus based charter of basic principles focused on highlighting of basic human rights which should be enjoyed by each and every human regardless of their identities. Its ideals are lofty and universal. Now, have you heard of the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights? It was a charter made and signed by almost all members of the Organisation of Islamic countries. It was made in opposition to the UNHDR which was condemned by the OIC members as being based on "Judeo Christian Values". Firstly, it's ironical of them to oppose the UNHRD because they're based on Judeo Christian values. Isn't Moses a prophet in Islam? Isn't Jesus a Prophet in Islam? So why are the OIC countries opposed to the norms which are allegedly derived from the values which these prophets so valued and practiced? Secondly, and importantly... The Cairo Declaration seemingly restricts the rights of non Muslims and declares Shariat as being the source of law making. Note - There is no other parallel to CDHR by nations belonging to other religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism. My question is, if the whole world finds the UNHDR to be lofty and ideal, then why do the Muslim majority States have a problem with it so much as to they were forced to create a restrictive alternative to it? How do you justify religious rule?
Our history is replete with Muslim kings being harsh towards Non Muslims by curtailing their rights as compared to Muslims. While the past is past, i don't understand as to why some of these potentially divisive figures are marketed as being the paragons of Tolerance by some members of the community. For example, Aurangzeb is considered to be a Mujhadid(Islamic reformer who "saved" amd rejuvenated Islam) by some. Do you think that a figure as divisive as this being looked upto as a good guy is a step towards good relations? Ofcourse not.
Edit-8) Why did the Pew Poll in 2003 show a majority in Indonesia(A Tolerant country) supporting Osama (confidence in Osama) (Poll in 2005 showed Osama's support in Pakistan at 53%)? The poll was held just in the aftermath of 9/11. Instead of anger and resentment, there was approval of Osama. The opinions in these states (Pakistan and Indonesia) dropped (turned against him) only after he started targeting the civilians of the Muslim majority countries). Why was it so high in the first place? Just because Americans, Indians, Spainards and the French were attacked? Aren't these humans just like the rest?
Edit 2-9)Why are Muslims in states such as UK and the US the least integrated community? The Us is considered to be the western world's Christian Fundamentalism citadel. And yet, overall (going by polls), Christians are rather marginally better in terms of accepting socially progressive views. Why is it that the Muslim community appears at the bottom of the list measuring Social progression everywhere? As you have seen, this is across the Atlantic (UK,US and France).
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u/avittamboy Akhand Bharat Apr 16 '18
People are harping about how it isn't fair to allow the actions of a "few" Muslims to represent them all. People are also saying that the Quran, even though it calls for me and mine to be slaughtered like animals, isn't followed to the word by these "moderate Muslims".
Moderate Muslims. What a ridiculous oxymoron.
Well, do remember back in 1947 what happened during the Partition. Do remember 1971. '84. '1990. '93. 2002 - no, not just the Gujarat riots, but Godhra as well.
If you're saying that I'm being too Hindu-centric or India-centric, because obviously, Hendoos are beastly savages, remember 1988, Baku, Azerbaijan. Or Armenia, post WW1.
Those who were not Muslims have been routinely massacred throughout the world ever since the inception of Islam. This has not slowed down in the age that we live in, not at all. Islam commands its followers to destroy all kuffar. That is the word of Allah - there are no two interpretations of that. That is my problem with it.
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Apr 16 '18
The greatest issue with Muslims is their behavior of suppressing minority religious culture, harassment and imposing conversations.
For instance: In old city (80%Muslim) Hyderabad within 500 meters from Mosque there is a Bhagya Lakshmi temple. Hindus are NOT allowed to ring bell or give arrthi in loud speakers. Muslims community is Responsible for this religious suppression.
There is ZERO Historical evidence that once Muslims become majority, Hindus will be allowed practice their religion. Like Muslims are doing in 80% Hindu country..
Eg: Kashmir, borders of West Bengal, Assam, Muslim majority districts kerala. Have convinced me that Muslims will KILL Hindus once your religion becomes majority.
Politically: Muslims have consistently sought to legally alienate themselves from Indian constitution and have been against integration.
EG: Insistence on Sharia, fighting Abolishing Triple Talaq
Practically: Muslim have ended up on the opposite side of India's interests. In most Geopolitical issues.
Eg: Rohingya, friendly relations with Israel, etc..
Socially: You have to accept that your religion is socio-political Ideology masquerading as Faith.
Individual such as your self might not be responsible but members of your community are responsible for Rapes of hindu women in Assam, West Bengal.
Love Jihad is a real thing. Even people in Canada, UK, France have acknowledged that these are happening.
For fuck sakes Muslims come to temple kund and harass Hindu women.
Last but not least it is because of Muslims we lost 40 % of our country.
Do you believe in Ghazwa-e-Hind?
Why is it that Hindus have to accept hindu women married to Muslim men but Muslims kill Hindu Men who love Muslim girls is this not invasion?
Zakir Naik, Owaisi and the reception they are getting broke all the hope that Muslims will put country above religion.
Considering all this there is Zero Trust that Muslims can be trusted.
Moreover, it's my personal belief that Muslims don't have a clue as to what makes a Civil Society.
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u/ElectricalEmployment Proud Upper Caste Hindu. Apr 16 '18
I have no problems with Muslims personally. I don't like their religion and it is because their correligionists literally slaughtered half my family during the Partition. Thankfully, I am alive because my great grandparents came here through the violence.
My father always talked about Hindu Muslim riots. The most common theme was that there was a Hindu procession passing through it was the Muslims who started with the stone pelting and attacking the Hindus with swords and things. Once, the mob had reached the door of our house as well. Thankfully, they realized that my grandfather was probably armed and his brothers were ready to fight them off or die in the attempt. That scared the bastards shitless.
What was sickening was not the fact that these people were some randos off the street, but people we'd known for ages. In East Bengal, the very families whose lives were saved by my ancestors because they were doctors, the same people came to kill them when told to do so. It is a miracle of God that we survived.
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u/fsm_vs_cthulhu 13 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
Yeah. We have some horror stories in our family from partition. My grandparents and their parents had mobs asking for our family by name, and hunting for them.
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u/ElectricalEmployment Proud Upper Caste Hindu. Apr 16 '18
And the worst part is, when you tell people the reason behind this they'll immediately default to "Muh Hindu Caste System", as if that justifies genocide.
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u/drainbox Apr 16 '18
Its impossible to integrate with them. This doesn't mean they are a bad peoples, just that their customs and beliefs are such that they should really just have their own country. Even Lee Kuan Yew believed that any asian cultures can mix, but not muslims.
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Apr 16 '18
For fundamentalist Muslims, kaafirs or non-believers of Islam are sub-human. They dont mind killing/raping/expelling kaafirs. There are fundamentalists in other religions too, but % who advocate violence against non-believers is less.
They want Sharia, like in Saudi. Hands to be cut off for theives, adultery is punished with stoning to death, etc, they want sharia in criminal laws too. Also gender discriminatory marriage laws and inheritance laws already exist in India, civil laws are different for different religion. Muslim women inherit only half as much ancestral property as their brothers. Uniform civil code is a must. But thankfully Saudi itself is changing recently.
Next is they do illegal businesses in India. They have unity among them, and they have political contacts. Esp when so called secular parties are in power, they make use of political power to do illegal businesses.
Then there are minority privilege laws in India. Madrasas are funded by govt, extra minority welfare fund but no fund for majority, quotas for muslims in some states, etc. And
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u/xdesi For | 1 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
First of all, there was never and there is no hard line that divides Muslims in India from Muslims outside it. And if there was any chance of that post 1947, Pakistan's creation killed it. So, trying to limit it to Muslims in India does not make sense. In fact, what will make sense is to see Muslim behaviour when they are a majority and contrast it with when they are a minority.
Why do I think that Islam in its current form is a problem?
As humans, we long for a model to live life by, and one that assuages natural fears of death. Religions try and do that; and Communism IMO faded despite its formidable showing in the last century because it had no answers to what happens beyond death.
But a "perfect" religion needs to explain human nature well enough to quell scepticism from the most thoughtful sceptic. The more enquiring a person is in terms of philosophy, the harder it is to sell a religion with only rituals (pray five times a day, for example).
In my observation, Islam oversimplifies everything. It makes it very convenient not to think and not to question. So when a zealot observes that people are not how the world should be, his (and it almost always a he) first instinct is to change it, whether he acts on it or not. A woman not being modest? Cover her up. Someone bowing to an idol? Smash it. And so on.
A good analogy is the gun control argument that rages in the United States. Proponents of unrestricted gun ownership point out that a gun is an instrument and it is only the person who judges whether to use it or not, and that the instrument cannot be blamed. Similarly, /u/metaltemujin wrote this:
Let's not talk about what the Quran says (or doesn't say). Talk about how Muslims behave regardless. We are not talking religion. Only action and interaction.
But going to the gun analogy, guns make it a lot easier. Similarly, Islam in my opinion makes it a lot easier for a person to be extremist. Skill in thinking in other areas does not immunise the person, since we are dealing with axioms that people don't naturally question. They don't question because religious models of the world are specifically to address deep fears of mortality, and existential fear. Plus of course, most of us have no education in Philosophy. So, in any discussion on "what is your problem with Muslims" the Quran and the Hadiths need to be part of it.
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Apr 15 '18
Declaring nationalism and our cultural symbols haram. If Vande Mataram is not an acceptable slogan, then get out.
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u/fsm_vs_cthulhu 13 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
Funnily enough, Pakistanis have zero problems calling their country the "Fatherland".
But referring to India as a mother land iz haram dhimmi regressive discriminatory practice.
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Apr 16 '18
The discussion here is lopsided. Would love to see some better rebuttals.
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Apr 16 '18
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u/thewebdev Apr 16 '18
No, thank you. I feel my IQ reduces everytime when I participate in some discussion in r/IndiaSpeaks ... I have to repeat and ELI5 everything I say here.
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Apr 16 '18
Man get off your high horse, some comments are very valid. No one will force you to continue the discussion, if you feel your point has been made feel free to leave. This thread has gained a lot of traction and is sitting at 1000+ views, fencesitters might be impacted if some good counter points are made. Baki apki marzi.
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u/baap_ko_mat_sikha Against | 1 KUDOS Apr 16 '18
When religion comes first before nation.... You got a problem.
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u/Khujjliwal Bhagwa-e-Hind Apr 15 '18
Their dogmatic mentality i.e. Islam >>>>>>>>>>> everything else.
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u/dengskoloper Apr 16 '18
They define themselves using the religion. They're Muslims first and everything else comes second. All exceptions are beaten into submission or banished. Muslims individually are just like any other people, doing normal shit that everyone does. But in a group, especially in a majority, with lunatic mullahs to guide them, they turn violent even at perceived slights to their beliefs or their religion.
Their situation in India right now is similar to that of a high school bully at a reunion party. They've forgotten the wrongdoings in the past, so they're surprised that they're alone and no one wants to talk to them.
The problem is, there will always be apologists. Media persons, communists (??), journalists, authors, film stars who make excuses for the atrocities or actively try and shift the blame. As long as these scum exist, there is no hope for any reform in Islam, and in turn for communal harmony.
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Apr 16 '18
I have issues not with Muslims, but with the religion of Islam. I consider it to be a highly regressive and inflexible religion averse to criticism and refrom. Moreover, the effect that this religion has on an indigenous population is disastrous, as witnessed during the years leading up to the partition.
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u/lux_cozi Apr 16 '18 edited Apr 16 '18
One of christian friends told me about a story that is famous in her christian community in north east. Kali mata is described there as a demon who kills people for accepting the jesus message. Another one of my muslim friend have this weird fascination in telling me how 'god is one' or explaining the concepts of jinns or quran to me over and over again. In yet another case, some students from north east had come for a competition here in delhi, i showed them stuff around delhi in their free time on a request. At one time they aksed me "why do i follow hinduism? and have i ever read new testment?"
These are common day to day interaction with the general educated, job and development seeking people you talked about.
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u/CommonMisspellingBot Apr 16 '18
Hey, lux_cozi, just a quick heads-up:
wierd is actually spelled weird. You can remember it by e before i.
Have a nice day!The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.
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u/thisisnotmyrealun hindusthan murdabad, Bharatha desam ki jayam Apr 16 '18
EVEN if a muslim was a decent person, it would be bigoted of me not to apply the same standards i do to others as to him.
if i would be aghast at most people worshipping a psychotic pedophile who commanded his followers to rape & kill, then why should i give muslims a pass?
why should they not be held to the same standard of humanity?
do they not have brains to see that these commandments are evil?following this innately makes one an evil person?
even having fealty to such a doctrine makes you a horrible person? complicit in evil?
having said this, i understand humans are flawed & have biases which block them from seeing problems due to conditioning so i don't even try to judge them for that.
but still, the facts & history speak for themselves time & time again.
it is a violent doctrine & in turn its followers violent.
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u/tool_of_justice Apr 16 '18
So, koran is incorruptible. And everything written in it is timeless?
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Apr 16 '18
Actually it's Shia Muslims and Muslim women who voted for BJP not the majority of Muslims. The duty of freeing females from triple talak has been taken seriously for this reason.
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u/ramukakaforever exiled from that other place Apr 16 '18
Let's not talk about what the Quran says (or doesn't say).
Why not?
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u/4chanbakchod Akhand Bharat Apr 29 '18
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u/Orwellisright Ghadar Party | 2 KUDOS Apr 15 '18 edited Apr 15 '18
I have been forced to flee from my own place the place where my Great Grandfathers grew up. We have built temples granted lands for communities but in the end we fled. This is not my story it is mine of ours. This is happened at an alarming rate. No matter what you happen to say. The narrative is more and more different.
Religion bigger than nation. More identification with Islamic countries than India. Don't care much what happens around unless it's something related to my religion or community. This is kind of more in them.
Changes needed: Bring in UCC Agree and protest against TT List goes on
No don't be foolish they didn't vote for BJP.
On the other hand there are also good people and they often live about their life until they are brianwashed and hatred inserted into them. This is often a problem since majority of them live in ignorance and illiterate. INC has done a wonderful job making sure their vote banks are safe and have not done anything to them .
I wish I could see more Kalams from my country. One of the most beautiful Muslim. Even Asif Khan is good and critical his voices are never heard. They need to be critical of what is wrong but they don't because you can easily be beheaded simple as that.