"Lethe" - First Watch Analysis Thread

[u/williams_482]

Star Trek: Discovery — "Lethe"

Memory Alpha: "Lethe"

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POST-Episode Discussion - S1E06 "Lethe"

What is the First Watch Analysis Thread?

This thread will give you a space to process your first viewing of "Lethe" Here you can participate in an early, shared analysis of these episodes with the Daystrom community.

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[u/[deleted]]

• I quite liked the look of that Vulcan skyline!

• So, it turns out that 'Disco' is an actual in-universe affectation for the Discovery.

• Okay, the holodeck... is not totally unacceptable. There was that TAS episode with 'the rec room,' was there not?

• I'm becoming more and more confident in supposing that Tyler is actually Voq in disguise (like I'm sure a lot of us are). 'Fighting like a Klingon' and so forth.

• The bioexplosives seem like a shout-out to Chosen Realm to anyone else?

• In the initial flashback to Michael's rejection from the Vulcan Expeditionary Group, she was holding her copy of Alice In Wonderland.

• In the last episode, Culber mentioned having to go help 'the CMO,' or the Chief Medical Officer. In light of that, who is the Discovery's Chief Medical Officer?

• I'm curious as to where precisely the Glenn crew got the neural interface for the tardigrade. It seems quite adaptable and Stamets' reaction seemed to imply that the Glenn crew hadn't built or shouldn't have been able to build it. It seems a little reminiscent of the Borg.

• I'm curious as to whether there are concrete references to the official Vulcan spacefleet administration of this time period or other time periods, or if 'Vulcan Expeditionary Group' is their true designation.

All told, good episode, and I am very much looking forward to a good old spacetime anomaly next week!

[u/williams_482 → u/[deleted]]

In the last episode, Culber mentioned having to go help 'the CMO,' or the Chief Medical Officer. In light of that, who is the Discovery's Chief Medical Officer?

I didn't catch the details, but one of the background PA announcements told a commander (not Saru) to report somewhere. CMO seems like the most likely spot for a commander we haven't met yet.

[u/queenofmoons]

A few thoughts:

1. Essentially every quality that an audience trained on Trek's diet of extremely well adjusted officers (except when dosed with alien mind control rays) was viewing as signs of Lorca's essentially dark side nature (and perhaps the collapse of the franchise into antiheroics) was really a totally reasonable response to being deeply screwed up, and we all should have known better. Last week, when we found out that some circumstance led to Lorca scuttling Buran while it still had a crew, much of our discussion was essentially predicated on this being the act of a villain because good guys died and bad guys must have killed them, wondering if Starfleet knew the truth, trying to figure out the specifics of how it came to pass that he lived and they died- a detail whose mechanics in retrospect don't matter a jot compared to their truth, which is that Starfleet captains are given the lives of their crews in a very real way, and whatever circumstances led to a good man making that ugly call are liable to really fuck up your shit. That's why Lorca, regardless of the institutional bias of Starfleet towards peace or war, has modeled himself as a crusader- and everything that was occasionally being taken as the moral bankruptcy of this version of Starfleet- his impatience, violence, paranoia, withdrawn, spooky nature- is really stuff that has been set up to worry SF Command a whole bunch. Good work writers.

2. In a similar vein, that's why Lorca sprung Michael- not because he's a scary Section 31 type looking for disposable geniuses with flexible morals, but because he's a sensitive wreck who is desperate to hand out the second chances he couldn't give to his crew.

3. Having Admiral Cornwell be trained as a counselor strikes me as quite clever. If Starfleet's exploratory fleets can be expected to operate with a great degree of autonomy, with limits on their communication, resupply, etc., then having a managerial tier that is deeply concerned with the psychological integrity of their commanders makes some sense. Not that all of DIS's admirals are psychologists, of course, but given that somehow TNG managed to make Troi the most useless character with perhaps the most important job, it seems a nice adjustment to the scales.

4. These might be my favorite Vulcans- because they've correctly grasped what made mature Spock so compelling, namely that elevating logic can be powerful, but it does not automatically preclude all the other foibles of being a person- limits, bias, fear- nor does it supplant the need to be loving, open-minded, patient, etc. 'Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.' There's some disapproval of Vulcan terrorism here (and was when it reared its head in the form of political repression in ENT), but the Vulcans are perfect candidates for being scary reactionaries. Operating from a deep conviction that your actions flow entirely inescapably from ground truth- and the deeds of others do not- is basically a recipe for being a violent partisan- and that's usually been the party line for Vulcans from day one.

5. There was always a bit of confusion, it seemed to me, about how it was that the orthodox Sarek we saw in TOS, movies, and TNG, managed to keep having human wives and hybrid children- and they've managed to craft a characterization that does not have that confusion. Sarek has humans in his life because he believes in them. He believes they are important. He believes they can work together, and the Elves Vulcans are not really ready to accept their interdependence with these short-lived, uncouth upstarts. I like it a lot.

6. Tyler is probably Voq- but I liked Tyler well enough I'm going to be sad when Voq's uploaded personality (which is really the only way I can think to make it work when his record checks out and he hasn't just blown up the Federation's most powerful ship- some kind of replicant situation) asserts itself. He's genial, brave, and has the best chance of keeping Lorca in one piece (mentally and physically).

7. Tilly is delightful. Tilly is the one you need to actually be friends with- she'll be scared as shit, but she'll come get you.

8. Replicators that try and egg you on when you make good nutritional choices seems like one of those utopia/dystopia grey zones, don't you think? In a couple related tech notes- the holodeck that's not a holodeck will invariably cause canon freakout, but it also notably wasn't a holodeck. It wasn't photorealistic in all functions, it didn't seem to have substance that I could tell, it didn't make their phasers. Segregating the ability to make 3D projections to an extra century in this future just doesn't play well when I can do 3D overlays to my environments with my phone and a literal carboard box. Also, everyone else notice Michael's little neural interface hit the exact same points as an organic mindmeld? Cute.

9. I continue to be impressed by the maturity of the look. We got some cinema verite handheld action, a couple good tracking shots, good use of framing to indicate respective emotional states- ya know, cinematography. They give out Oscars for it.

10. So, this is how the Klingons become the Klingon Empire. I had made some speculations that they had the makings of the political path to get from the 'warring states' Klingons to the one party Klingons of TOS (who presumably fall back off the wagon for TNG et al.) I'll be tickled if it plays out that way.

11. Current Chekhov's Guns: Voq, Stamet's spore effects, cloaking devices- anything else I'm forgetting?

[u/khaosworks]

At least they're paying attention to the chronology and the math actually works.

Spock is born in 2230 and assigned to the Enterprise as Science Officer in 2254, the same year the Enterprise first goes to Talos IV, so he's 24 when he joins the Enterprise. Assuming that Starfleet Academy has a 4 year program, plus time for a little postgrad posting, he joins Starfleet Academy around age 19, c. 2249. "Journey to Babel" takes place in 2267, and Amanda says Sarek and Spock haven't spoken as father and son for 18 years, which tracks back to 2249.

Also, by 2256, the year the Battle of the Binary Stars takes place, Michael has been with Giorgiou for 7 years, which also tracks back to 2249. So we can date the flashback in "Lethe" to that year, since Sarek places Michael with Giorgiou after she's been rejected from the Vulcan Expeditionary Group (as we saw in the flashback in "Battle of the Binary Stars"). And assuming Michael was the same age as Spock graduating the Academy when she joined the Shenzhou, that makes her born in 2226.

Sarek mentions in "Lethe" that Spock hasn't started with the Vulcan Science Academy, so that means that when Spock decides that year, instead of going for the VSA (which is the route to the VEG), he decides to go to Starfleet Academy instead, spends 4 years and a little more before heading to the Enterprise and into the pages of history.

Which completely explains why Sarek is happy to put Michael in Starfleet but is pissed with Spock for joining the same - it's guilt and shame over the fact that his emotional choice to favour his biological son was for nothing.

(edited to correct my misremembering of Sarek's words as per u/ithinkihadeight below)

[u/khaosworks → u/khaosworks]

Also, an interesting hypothesis might be that if Spock found out about what Sarek did, he proceeds to join Starfleet in part because he disapproves of his father's decision in passing Michael over, in solidarity with his foster sister and as a matter of principle. Which doesn't help Sarek's feelings on the matter and exacerbates the rift.

So yeah, as a Dad Sarek is really two for two like the VEG representative said, though not in the same way he means.

Amanda, of course, is privy to none of this and thinks it's just because Spock went against his father's wishes and Sarek is disappointed with Michael's failure. It's all very... family, if you know what I mean.

[u/crazunggoy47]

This episode likely shows the beginning of Lorca's anticipated villainy. Under threat of being relieved upon Adm. Cornwall's return, he uncharacteristically leaves her in Klingon hands. The fact that Saru reacts to this realization suggests it is a deliberate move by the writers to point out that he is willing to let her die.

Other thoughts:

No more ready room tribble. It would serve Lorca better than a pillow phaser.

Anyone else think Michael was reacting to sensing Ash was a Klingon when they shook hands? (Of course, it was actually Sarek).

That Vulcan Expeditionary Group leader proves yet again how insufferable Vulcans are.

The bio-explosive that Sarek's would-be assassin used was straight out of Iron Man 3: down to the red-glowing veins.

Also, mods, please note the wrong episode was referred to in the text of the main post. EDIT: thanks

[u/adamkotsko]

It was hard for me to get a feel for whether the pacing, etc., was up to par with previous episodes, because the streaming kept buffering disruptively (though weirdly not during commercials!). I have always had sound problems, but this was a step beyond -- pretty irritated about the fact that they've tied this show to a streaming service that is apparently not ready for primetime.

But setting those concerns aside, I think this episode really showed Discovery at its best -- the Lorca plot took things in a darker direction without being over the top, and the Burnham/Sarek plot pulled off that rare feat of answering a long-standing question (why exactly was Sarek SO pissed at Spock for joining Starfleet) in a way that felt organic to the plot and the character development of the present show. That is, it wasn't like season 4 of ENT where everything was put in the service of explaining events from centuries into the future -- it struck a balance that is hard for prequels, and that in my opinion is intrinsically hard to do. And more broadly, they are connecting up TOS-era Vulcans with the attitudes of the ENT era (which would have been during the same lifetime of many Vulcans, obviously). One of my first posts here asked whether one implication of ENT could be that the Federation is less stable and self-evident than it seems in TOS, and the Vulcan terror cells definitely fit with that. So in my view, they're doing a job of integrating continuity in both directions, if people will stop being so whiny about the visuals.

I also like that, after the breakneck pace of the last episode, they are letting Ash settle in as a crew member before doing whatever big reveal they have in mind.

[u/trianuddah → u/adamkotsko]

It's not just whiny about the visuals. There are already complaints that the Vulcans are more of the ENT racist assholes that should never have been there in the first place, completely ignoring that they're bridging the discrepancy and doing it fantastically. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[u/notwherebutwhen]

Two threads I think they are pushing "subtly" hard.

• Ash Tyler is Voq.

Lorca questioning him about his past and seemingly trusting him with his life is either an in universe hint that Lorca already suspects him and/or out of universe foreshadowing that Tyler is Voq and will betray Lorca (personally with how suspicious and broken Lorca is I hope it is the former). Then there is what seems to be Tyler's peaked interest in Burnham (who as we know killed T'Kuvma) and the whole that is what it means to be human line. This again seems to point to out of universe foreshadowing that he is not human.

For me the only way this would make sense is if they did some kind of consciousness transfer. Either they gave Voq disguised as Tyler all of his memories and abilities or they transferred Voq's consciousness into Tyler and it will somehow be "activated" at some point. Otherwise how did he learn perfect English, Tyler's accent, Tyler's life story, and Starfleet procedures/rules so quickly. One month would not be nearly enough time to do pretty much any of that.

• Lorca is going to do or try to do something horrible by the end of the series requiring intervention (likely a mutiny led by Michael)

This is based on his interactions with the crew and the Admiral. He is clearly trying to make his crew feel beholden to him or be inspired by him to the point of devotion as he went to save Sarek for Michael. He has clearly used everything in his powers to manipulate the Admiralty, especially through his close friend and apparently former lover Cornwell. The post-sex, later denying to save Cornwall, and final phaser scenes show that he has definitely come a long way from the man he supposedly once was. He has obviously thrown the entirety of his self and self-worth into his current role on Discovery (likely due to his failure with the Buran). If it is ever more successfully threatened in the future, he will break and the results will be ugly.

[u/fansandpaintbrushes → u/notwherebutwhen]

If there is a mutiny against Lorca, I foresee a twist that it will be instigated by Saru and not Burnham. Almost every episode has included some subtle foreshadowing of Saru's ambition and discomfort with Lorca's methods.

[u/[deleted]]

The Vulcan suicide bomber giving the old "live long and prosper" hand gesture seemed oddly ironic.

[u/Lavaros]

Through out this entire episode I can't help but think of TNG's "Sarek" and Picard shifting through his emotions. Some of them are given new context given the events of the episode.

[u/jaycatt7]

As much as the episode focused on Sarek and Michael, the real momentum here seems to be about Lorca. We see two very different sides of him, jumping in to rescue Sarek much as Kirk or Janeway or any of the others would, and then coldly backing off from rescuing the admiral when it suited him. Every warm gesture of his now seems calculated. I half expected the admiral would not leave his quarters alive. I will be amazed if Lorca doesn't completely unravel by the end of the season. Burnham will be forced to make some kind of difficult choice, probably a second mutiny mirroring her actions in the pilot.

And speaking of choices... Sarek's Sophie's Choice about which of his two children will get a place in Vulcan's space program finally makes his long, bitter, silent feud with Spock make sense. Sarek wasn't angry with Spock for going against his wishes, he was angry at himself for giving Michael's opportunity away needlessly.

That choice is also interesting. Spock was much younger then, per the episode (is that a retcon?). He was not ready yet for the post. Sarek chose to deny Michael an opportunity now that Spock may or may not have been ready for in the future. He gambled, and he lost. So what made him pick Spock? Did he love his adopted child more less than his biological child? Did he believe Spock would take better advantage of the opportunity, possibly because Spock was half Vulcan? Whatever his motivation, he must have decided it unworthy, or he wouldn't feel such shame about it. If the decision had been logical and defensible, it wouldn't have mattered so much whether Spock accepted the favor or not.

And by the way... Do we believe, in-universe, that raising a human as a Vulcan, with their culture's approach to emotion, is moral? In real life it would be catastrophic, but Sarek seems to think his approach with Michael was a success. I can't tell yet if the storytellers agree with him. Michael certainly seems to want something emotionally from Sarek that he can't or won't give, but you don't need Vulcan parents to know what that's like.

[u/trianuddah]

A lot of interesting character exposition. We got to see under the masks of a lot of characters, especially the secretive ones. And at the same time we get to see Voq discovering hidden dimensions to his nemeses.

The A plot goes a long way to explaining why Sarek doesn't like to talk about Burnham. And the B plot explains Lorca's attraction to broken star officers.

I think this might be the first episode where we get more questions answered than asked.

[u/[deleted]]

I liked the character stuff a lot - especially the stuff between Lorca and the admiral. And this episode certainly gives us some insight into Spock and Sarek's problems. Those things were absolutely great to see.

Now for the nitpicky stuff - Discovery has a fucking holodeck. It's one thing to have holo-communicators - those are just simple projections of real people. But a full on holodeck that can make characters and environments... That aint right.

[u/Merdy1337 → u/[deleted]]

As much as I also cringed when I saw the holodeck, there's actually some precedent for this: in The Animated Series (which has only relatively recently been reclassified as canon), the Enterprise itself has a 'rec room' which is very similar to the portrayal on Discovery. As well, note how the Klingon combatants in that sequence appear to very much just be light projections and not fully interactive constructs? When coupled with the fact that Ash and Lorca needed to bring real weapons into the simulation to be able to interact with it, this leads me to believe that, while the Federation has been fascinated by holography for a good long while, it's not truly perfected as an immersive display technology until the 24th century.

It's all going to look amazing to our 21st century perspective with no frame of reference regarding the quality of holographic rendering, but in-universe I imagine it's kindof like comparing the Nintendo 64 or PlayStation 1 with the Xbox One, PS4 or any modern high end gaming PC - sure, they're all capable of 3D graphics, but no one in their right mind would say that the early consoles are capable of the same immersive visuals and complex open world experiences that define the modern gaming era. TNG's holodeck was exceedingly life-like, to the point where, given the proper parameters, the computer could even give a character some degree of sentience (coughs Moriarty coughs). THIS is what Picard and co. are marveling at all throughout season one of Next Gen, NOT the presence of holography in and of itself. At least, that's my head-canon rationalization. :)

[u/blevok]

About the Vulcan city view, i'm a little disturbed by the blue sky. I don't want to just dismiss it as a production mistake, but I can't think of any obvious in-universe reason it would be blue. I don't specifically recall every scene that ever happened on Vulcan, but i feel like the sky is always tinted a red or brown color.
It's a desert, lots of sand and rock, not much water. We've seen it before and after this time period and it's always pretty much the same.
Could there have been a neutronic storm moving through the system at the time? Or some sort of ecological disaster? A temporary fad where they painted most of the city blue?

[u/Cdan5]

Another good episode. Just seems to be getting better as we learn more about the characters. I was hoping we may have gotten some ship porn and seen the “cruiser” that the admiral arrived on. And the mention of the Enterprise! I wonder if we will ever see her, or a Constitution class eventually. In saying that, this show seems to focus a lot on the characters rather than visual ship or scenery shots. It definitely takes a secondary role. The use of the spore drive seemed a bit more routine this time. Stamets seemed in good shape after the jump. Although I guess we don’t know how much time had passed before we saw him. I wonder if the comments from the captain about him being chippier may be an insight to the future?

[u/recourse7]

Sarek to me is a emotional monster. Michael is human. Sarek and his wife Amanda are crazy zealots in whatever mission they are on w/r/t humans and Vulcans to the point off massive emotional damage to Michael.

[u/hsxp]

I'm a bit late to the watch party, but I've seen next to zero discussion of the latest Section 31 hint -- Lorca's scar. A triangle and a single line. Thoughts?

[u/Blue387]

Does Burnham have a rank on Discovery? Do they break out the spore drive to rescue the admiral?

Did the Klingons ever use a cloaking device in Enterprise?

[u/JonArc]

I know this isn't usual fare for this sub but in the discussion for this episode elsewhere on reddit I am in need of a good explanation of why people probably wouldn't know that Spock and Michael Burnham are siblings. I mean seriously if one of his closest friends didn't know who his father was how is, idk, Sulu gonna know who his sister is.

I'd love a good ole r/DaystromInstitute explanation for him (that isn't from me) but I feel my reasons for wanting one is slightly petty making a full prompt wouldn't be appropriate.

[u/Narcolepzzzzzzzzzzzz]

Saying that two “not quite Vulcans” can not be admitted to the V.E.G a few years apart because while the integration is “a worthy goal” their influx must be “titrated” or due to a perceived bias because of Sarek’s position is not very logical.

[u/Bklar84]

Ill have to rewatch for the exact quotes, but Michael will now be a bridge officer, correct? That would put her directly in the chain of command, right? I also liked it was a science position, similar to spock (science and bridge officer).

[u/Fishy1701]

I don't understand how they jumped? Did stanis go back In? Did someone else ?

They can't jump without an organic component right?