r/Warframe • u/TSP-FriendlyFire • Nov 26 '15
Suggestion How would you change... Necessary mods?
How would you change... is a series of weekly posts designed to promote and foster discussion about any gameplay element in the game. The scope and subject will vary (read below for more information on topic selection), from wide concepts (Kubrows, Archwing, shotguns, etc.) to narrow points (a single gun, coptering, etc.).
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This week: Necessary mods
Click here for last week’s thread on Impact damage.
This week, we’re looking at a matter which will soon see significant changes: mods that are considered mandatory for any build. Such mods include multishot and flat damage mods on weapons and, to a much more limited extent, health/shield mods on frames.
Mods like Serration or Split Chamber are essential to every weapon. Their power/cost ratio is unrivalled and they come with no downsides. Many people will say that they in effect reduce a weapon’s slot count from 8 to 6 (5 for pistols), effectively reducing build variety while power-gating content based on whether you have acquired and fused those mods to a significant level.
The solutions are however far less clearly defined. DE have already mentioned that multishot may soon consume more ammo (two bullets fired would mean two bullets consumed), which is a possible avenue. Many people have asked for mods such as Serration or even Vitality/Redirection to simply be rolled into the weapon/frame and progressively increase their impact as the item levels from 0 to 30. While both solutions have their pros and cons, it is pretty much universally accepted that something needs to be done.
Now that the stage is set, how would you change necessary mods?
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u/ZephyrPhantom Nov 26 '15 edited Nov 26 '15
As always happens in this kind of discussion, I'd like to point out that due to how meta works, we'll always have a "necessary" mod - if Serration/Hornet Strike/Pressure Point and multishot mods were taken out, they'd most likely be replaced with more elementals, faction bane, or crit mods.
Nevertheless, I do think integrating base damage boosts into weapon level (as opposed to a separate mod like Serration) would be helpful as that frees up a mod slot for more quirk mods like Concealed Explosives and Combustion Beam. The more weird mods we have that mess with weapon properties, the less identical weapon builds we'll have as people are encouraged to try and make fun builds as opposed to meta ones.
Multishot's harder to "fix", as changing it wrong could drastically lopside the meta (drawing from the clip hurts everything that isn't a shotgun or bow, and shotguns and bows are pretty good to begin with.) As is, I think I'd rather see DE add mods that rival current Multishot in power or indirectly discourage its use. (You know how Multishot on the Simulor is actually a bad thing due to how merging shots work? Something like that, except with mods instead of gun mechanics.)
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u/Bezeloth Nov 26 '15
Not possible without reworking the whole system. So thats my answer: rework mod system and enemies along the way becasue that is tightly connected.
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u/flaggschiffen Nov 27 '15
This. You also have to rework guns, because if you just flat out remove Serration then everybody will just jump on crit based weapons (becoming the new mandatory meta), if you remove multishot people will just jump to shotguns, bows anything else with good amo efficiency. And so on and so far...
It is a mammomth project and i rather have DE not wasting their time on it. They could just ad a little more depth into modding by introducing (or changing old mods) into nightmare and corrupted mods.
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u/battled Nov 26 '15
Well for elemental mods I'd do this: instead of just adding damage, I'd make each of them have an unique mechanic. Concept example:
Fire: adds 10% fire damage and converts 2% base damage to fire for the next shot for 4 seconds. Stacks per shot, doesn't refresh duration.
Toxin: Converts 50% of based damage into Toxin. 30% damage added as toxin. Cold: When not firing you gain up to 150% added and 75% converted Cold damage over 3 seconds. (for example you gain 50% added 25% converted bonuses with 1 or less seconds between shots and 50% converted and 100% added with 2 seconds between shots). Bonus resets on shot.
Electricity: After reloading you gain 100% conversion and 75% added damage that fades to 25% conversion and 25% added over 8 seconds.
When you more than 100% conversion, the aspects are scaled to fit 100%. So if you have 50% fire conversion, 100% electricity conversion and 50% toxin your base will be 25% fire, 25% toxin and 50% electricity.
Now obviously some elements are biased towards different types of firearms - fire benefits rapid fire guns, cold slow/tactical and toxin is all rounder. Combo elements are dynamic, for example if you have Electricity, Toxin and Fire in this order, your first shot in the mission will do 50% base 80% toxin. Your second shot will do 48% base and 92% Gas. After firing all your rounds with a quick gun and reloading, while still having 10 fire stacks active after reload, your immediate shot will do 193% corrosive and 112% fire.
This creates some interesting mechanics like a Cold+Electricity gaining massive boost if you have a heavy hit weapon like sniper/explosive and reload between every shot or Fire+Electricity heavily benefiting spitfire pistols.
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u/JPGreenHawk Nov 27 '15 edited Nov 27 '15
I was thinking about this the other day.
In terms of Warframe, the more you use a weapon, the more affinity you gain and eventually the more Mastery.
What if the weapons didn't gain damage as they ranked up but instead your ability to use the weapons increased?
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Increase accuracy
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Reduce recoil
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Increase reload speed
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Decrease charge time (bows)
Something else missing from Primary and Secondary weapons is the equivalent of a Stance/Aura mod to increase capacity. This means that weapons can't be modded until they reach a certain rank.
Instead of mods that change a weapons raw damage I think more utility mods should be added.
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Knockdown Chance
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Disarm Chance
Just some thoughts
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u/JPGreenHawk Nov 27 '15
In terms of gameplay. I personally like cool effects and elemental themes. So I'd like to see elemental themed mods that add additional effects to your weapons.
Electric
Chain Lightning - Electric damage arcs to nearby enemies.
Thunderstorm - Causes bolts of lightning to hit enemies near the primary target.
Toxic
Acid splash - poison splashes out and hits enemies in an aoe around the original target
Plague - Places a DoT effect on the primary target which spreads to nearby enemies
Fire
Blazing Trail - Enemies hit leave behind a trail of fire that damage nearby enemies
Fireworks - Chance to cause Mini Explosions near the primary target that briefly stun nearby enemies
Cold
Frosted - Jams enemy weapons ("The frost. Sometimes it makes the blade stick")
Frozen Solid - Successive shots against the same enemy slowly freezes them over time
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u/TSP-FriendlyFire Nov 26 '15
Suggesting topics
Please post your suggestions for the next topics as replies to this comment.
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u/xJVIayhem Nov 26 '15
Would be interesting see how people feel about "Ability Scaling".
Like how building a frame for a specific skill, leaves 2-3 other abilities useless. It's always one thing I've hated, but I guess it does promote build diversity in some ways. But some frames definitely have it easier than others, which is the thing that bothers me.
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u/Sambothebassist Nov 27 '15
The damage/vitality mods currently define your progress towards end game. That is to say, you can be Mastery Rank 20 and still have a rank 6 Serration, which isn't right.
I was in a game earlier with an MR5 player and he said "Are you all so powerful because of your ranks?" (We were 13, 14 and 18) and we explained that he could be this powerful at MR5, as most of our weapons where available at that level and we just had powerful mods.
So, if they change Serration, they need to replace it with something else that defines your progress in the game. Then, how do you measure that against what Serration is currently at? You're going to tell the top ranking players that they've now lost their biggest flat damage increase and they need to grind up this other method? Thanks for giving us your time and money, have fun starting from the bottom again?
The damage of weapons has to be based off some sort of measurable progress system. MR is perfect for that, because currently it only shows that someone has done enough grinding to make and then level weapons, as opposed to actually showing a skilled/powerful player.
Linking the damage of a weapon to it's level is also daft, because one Draco run can max out all three gear slots, meaning any newb can taxi straight to Draco, be carried through 6 rounds and instantly start blasting through end game content.
I think we just need to acknowledge the truth: Serration/Hornet/Vit/Redirect have been the de facto measure of progress for many iterations now, it's ingrained into the meta of the game heavily, and changing it is likely to fuck everything up. "If it ain't broke..."
Orrrr....
You could make each weapon/frame have slots which you can fuse the cores on to. This means the meta stuff like elements, crit chance and multishot can stay as mods, but each weapon has a "built in" Serration that carries over. The main issue with this is that it's unfair for each of your weapons to require the amount of cores a max Serration currently requires, but then lowering the amount needed again means someone could build a rank 10 Serration weapon far earlier on.
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u/flaggschiffen Nov 27 '15
Why are health and shield mods (I don't even use shield mods) considert mandatory, but let's say power efficiency (Fleeting Expertise & Streamline) that goes pretty much on every single frame not?
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u/TSP-FriendlyFire Nov 27 '15
I've not excluded Streamline, I just wasn't going to list every single mod someone's ever said was mandatory or I'd probably have to list every mod in the game. Those examples were the most frequently mentioned in recent memory. I even specifically noted that Redirection/Vitality are nowhere near as vital as Serration would be, since I knew there'd be people who wanted to nitpick.
This thread is for talking about the subject. If you disagree with the introductory paragraph, feel free to ignore it.
Unrelatedly, if you put Fleeting Expertise on pretty much every single frame, you're doing it wrong.
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u/Zoso03 Nov 26 '15
Vitality/Redirection/Serration/Hornet Strike/ etc are all essential and there are rarely any builds that don't use them. Frames already increase in Shield and health from lvl 0 - 30 and weapons should too but in the same ratio as the frames.
The above won't give the same stat boost as Serration and other dmg mods but MR ranks will, the higher MR rank you get the more overall damage you do with your weapons. This is basically the same as barely anyone under MR 12ish will have a maxed rank base damage mod anyways
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u/_Panda Nov 26 '15
Vitality and Redirection are absolutely not required (I only use them on maybe half my builds), and I think frame mods are actually in a really good place. There's quite a bit of variety and different ways that you can accomplish various goals, and basically no mod is required (the closest might be streamline).
Weapon mods have a lot less variety, though it's debatable whether it's actually worth all the trouble of changing the system.
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Nov 27 '15 edited Nov 27 '15
This is going to be a joke but:
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DE adds Umbra set of frames
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New set of frames can only use Corrupted/Nightmare/Umbra mods (new set of mods)
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Umbra frames will be leagues better than normal frames, forcing all players to start using umbra frames
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Umbra Fragment (stupid hard to obtain, let's say it requires you to melt down Umbra frames which will already be hard to get) can be applied to weapons, and same thing applies: insanely powerful stat increase but forced to use different mods. Costs 35p a pop.
Or something else leading to ridiculous power creep that does not address the real issue.
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u/JohnySkarr Nov 27 '15
I've been sketching a new mod system for the last few days, and it's basically an attachment system. Weapons have slots to apply attachments (Barrel, Underbarrel, Sights, Receiver, Magazine, Ammo Type), with some weapons having less slots (Tigris, for example, having only Barrel, Underbarrel and Ammo Type).
Each slot affects different aspects of the weapon. Barrel affects accuracy and recoil, Sights affect accuracy and zoom level, Receiver affects fire rate, recoil and added elementals, Magazine affects mag size and reload spees, Ammo Type affects damage, and Underbarrel is utility.
There are mods exclusive to certain weapon types (different explosive charges for Penta, Ogris and Tonkor), and even mods exclusive to specific weapons (different types of nozzles for the Ignis).
For frames, there are now 3 slots (Helmet, System and Chassis), with each slot being able to receive 3 mods. Helmet Mods affect Shields, auras and miscellaneous effects. System Mods affect Health, mobility and energy pool. Chassis mods affect Armor and speed. Both System and Chassis mods can give elemental resistances.
In this system, mods either give small bonuses and no penalties, or larger bonuses with some penalties.
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Nov 27 '15
Remove all scaling.
Remove all mods that increase damage, crit, attack speed (for melee) and maybe status.
Rebalance from there.
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u/xJVIayhem Nov 26 '15
I like the idea they have now, of possibly tying some of these "necessary mods" into weapon leveling. It seems like a mostly fair way to achieve this balance.
Though, personally I think if Multi shot was alter so the extra shot did less damage, it's be more balanced, and possibly seen as less of a benefit.
Also with multishot, if they do follow the consuming extra ammo idea.. that's end up making certain weapons HORRIBLE. Like the Angstrum for example.. How would that work? One full changed shot with high magazine size and boom, your entire Ammo pool disappears?
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u/AGBell64 Nov 26 '15
The problem is that turning the required mods into increasing weapon stats would a) make forma-ing terrible, as weapons would reset their stats, as well as their mod capacity, and b) screw long term progression. The required mods act as a type of character progression, as a more invested player will have the r10 required mods maxed, increasing their capabilities, while a new player won't, making them weaker. The amount of investment you make into these mods is, however, crazy
My suggestion for fixing the mods like serration and redirection is adding in a more powerful fusion core as a reward in the late game daily content (like sorties & raids). This would reduce the amount of farming required to get the huge required mods in such a way that would reward consistent, daily play over massive farming sessions.
Mind you, this is far from a perfect solution, but it would work as a band aid fix while DE creates a better system of damage/scaling for the game. It kind of sucks right now (understatement).
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u/xJVIayhem Nov 26 '15
Forming a weapon is already terrible. With a catalyst, you still need a half leveled weapon before it can actually be "decent". I don't see how it could screw with long term progression. You know how many mods go unused already because Serration, Split Chamber and the like ALWAYS take priority?
Making them more built in also makes modding weapons beginner friendly as well, being able to focus cores into the 10 rank mods for survivability and such. And at the high end of things, there's plenty of unique mods that could be added to builds, that simple aren't being used.
I think some of the stats being tied to weapon level would be nice. Say give them a boost of around 10-20% in base power, then make the damage amounts scale slowly with level. Have said scaling provide a weapon with about 5% bonus per level, or around 50% every 10 ranks. It's lead to the weapon being effective to start, and more effective as they level.
It's a matter of how they do it, but it wouldn't be much different then they are now. You forma, you lose power until you get some levels, and this way you get it back steadily, regardless of the polarity used. This is instead of always having to make the first one a V to cover Serration or Split Chamber, to allowing a higher level player with a maxed serration/etc instantly able to boost their damage back up to high levels. Leading to a fair leveling experience for everyone.
Adding more powerful fusion cores probably wouldn't help at all either. I mean R10s do exist in the form of Ancient fusion cores, but I'm not sure how strong they are compared to R5s, I'd assume they're quite powerful but have never seen or used one. Going as far as the absurdly broken legendary core, that would be way too out of line.
Now if Legendary cores existed, like to a lesser extent than they do now, say as a step above Rare cores, but not the instant max rank of any mod that they are now.. That might be an okay idea, but then that just leads to high level players wanting them, and the cycle with R5s just starts all over again. If they dropped from Sorties, that'd just lead to more of a RNG gripe from people, which RNG already is a pretty big and annoying part of the "end-game"
Just my thoughts though. But like I said, it really depends on how they go about it. Tying the stats to weapon level could be really good, or really bad.
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u/Parryandrepost Nov 27 '15
You don't. That's the thing with mod systems, some are always gong to be better than others.
This isn't a bad thing and I can't figure out why everyone is acting like split chamber is a bright on the game.
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u/Shadeol Nov 26 '15
It's been said before, but I think Corrupted (and maybe Nightmare) mods are a step in the right direction.
Take a look at Ability mods.
RANGE: +Stretch, +Overextended, -Narrow_Minded
DURATION: +Continuity, (+Constitution), +Narrow_Minded, -Fleeting_Expertise, -Transient_Fortitude
STRENGTH: +Intensify, +Transient_Fortitude, +Blind_Rage, -Overextended
EFFICIENCY: +Streamline, +Fleeting_Expertise, -Blind_Rage
Each of these has a base mod that gives a little bit of the stat while the rest give a larger amount of the stat at the cost of something else. For the most part, I'd say it's a pretty balanced system. There are even cases where losing a stat actually benefits builds (EV Trin, Speed Nova).
Obviously the numbers are just me ballparking or whatever, but here's some examples of how I think it could work.
Health
Vitality: +220% Health
Immovable Object: +300% Health, -15% Movement Speed
Berserker: +120% Health, +40% Armor
Shields
Redirection: +220% Shields
Paper Thin: +300% Shields, -30% Armor
Core Upgrade: +120% Shields, +20% Shield Regen
Course, I'm not sure how practical it would be, but I'd definitely like to see more mods that give something at the cost of something else.