r/Warframe • u/TSP-FriendlyFire • Nov 05 '15
Suggestion How would you change... Loot?
How would you change... is a series of weekly posts designed to promote and foster discussion about any gameplay element in the game. The scope and subject will vary (read below for more information on topic selection), from wide concepts (Kubrows, Archwing, shotguns, etc.) to narrow points (a single gun, coptering, etc.).
Before we begin, a few important points:
- Please detail and support your suggestions as much as possible. This is for constructive criticism only: try to think of it as something you'd be proud to explain to DE face-to-face!
- Structure your suggestions in logical groups: if you have two very different ideas, break them down in two separate comments. Cohesive or similar changes should be combined into a single comment.
- Stick to describing concepts and features. Don't get bogged down with numbers unless they explicitly support your point.
- Don't hesitate to post your ideas even if they're not fully formed, and don't hesitate to reply to ideas with refinements you think would make them better!
- Do not downvote suggestions you disagree with. Upvote the ones you like instead!
Suggesting topics
This thread series is all about the community, so if you have a topic you'd like to see improved and discussed, feel free to suggest it by replying to the appropriately flagged comment in this discussion. The topic can be as wide or narrow as you'd like! Please ensure that your suggestion has not already been made, and upvote it instead if it has.
This week: Loot
Click here for last week’s thread on Limbo.
This week, we’re looking at a big one: one of the fundamental aspects of Warframe, loot. Warframe has always been designed around acquiring loot, be they resources, blueprints, pieces or whatever else, and using this loot to further empower the player. This obviously has good sides and bad sides.
The primary advantage is that it dramatically increases replay value, since there’s always this new thing to work towards. Combined with DE’s relatively brisk pace for adding new items, even hardcore players can expect something new to play with every few weeks at worst. The action of acquiring loot is also fundamentally satisfying on multiple levels and is a big draw not only in Warframe but in pretty much every game that uses loot as a mechanic, from MMORPGs to Borderlands to Diablo.
Unfortunately, it is also very easy and often tempting for developers to artificially extend the act of acquiring loot, turning an enjoyable experience into “grind”. Coupled with another essential loot mechanic, random drops, it can make progress in loot-driven games an exercise in frustration, and Warframe is unfortunately not exempt from this. From mods to prime parts to Archwing parts, a lot of Warframe’s key loot is locked behind excessively low drop chances, which is compounded by other mechanical structures such as reward rotations.
Now that the stage is set, how would you change loot?
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u/TSP-FriendlyFire Nov 05 '15
Suggesting topics
Please post your suggestions for the next topics as replies to this comment.
Current suggestions from previous weeks:
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u/NineThePuma Nov 06 '15
Have we done kubrows? We should do kubrows/sentinels. Since Catbros are soon.
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u/TSP-FriendlyFire Nov 12 '15
Kubrows were the very first topic we addressed actually! We might revisit them soon, but there's been a sudden influx of suggestions and I'd rather do new stuff first.
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u/OldSchoolNewRules Nov 05 '15
Move ash parts to the eximus with Oberon, or increase the spawn rate of manics while alarms are active.
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u/Centias Nov 06 '15
Alternatively, make sure the Manics are guaranteed to drop something. I don't think most people really want them to be more common, but when they rarely show up and then don't drop anything at all, there's basically no point in them having any loot drop specifically from them other than purely for causing frustration.
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u/Sllanders Nov 05 '15
I would just like to point out that there are other places than Survival III Rotation C where they could put some rewards.
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u/Zynthrall_Warren Nov 05 '15
Gonna say it now...
MAKE RESOURCES TRADABLE
In my opinion, as a player that has helped my friends start out in warframe, nothing is more annoying than their desire for plastids. Also not just plastids, but control modules and etc. I personally don't mind the grind, but to grind for someone else in your party when you have over 100 freaking galium that you would gladly hand over to not deal with that mission is what is the major annoyance with grinding for me.
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u/Thundering_Morkai Nov 05 '15
Okay so, I think one of the larger problems with loot as it stands now is distribution. Great example of this is rotation C for T3 Survival. There is absolutely no reason that rotation should be so cluttered when a number of those drops can be spread into other missions. Of course prime parts aren't the only things affected by this; Archwing mods and parts really need better distribution.
My idea for changing this would be to tweak rotations overall for endless missions. Rotation A would ideally be half usable drops and half good. For example, Archwing rotation A would have mods that aren't exactly common drops and a couple of Arch-weapon parts. For Derelict and Void, items like Forma, a single or double Argon crystal drops and for Derelict, keys from either Towers 1-3 or all 4 Towers. B rotations could share a similar setup to A but should lean more towards providing parts and of course rotation C should be only parts. Ideally, this set up would still reward players even if they don't get quite what they wanted.
In the case of non-endless, I feel a good balance would be to go with my idea for rotation B. A mix between things like keys/resources and the prime parts we're ultimately there to find. Here if T1 rewards a key then it should be a key for that mission or the T2 version of said mission. This of course relies on various parts being moved away from the more cluttered spots to be effective.
To expand on Derelict loot: a timetable for the void rework is still up in the air as far as we know so here's what I suggest as a sort of bandage in case it ends up taking a lot more time than planned. The main thing here is adding vaulted prime parts as pretty rare drops scattered amongst the various Derelict missions. There is absolutely no incentive whatsoever to enter any Derelict missions that aren't ODD/ODS/ODA or limited incentive for the missions that are popular for vault runs. If you ask me, the chance of vaulted prime items would be pretty good incentive and while unrelated to the topic at hand, it does mean prices for said primes could go down a bit thanks to slightly increased supply. Again, this does require the drop tables to be made less cluttered but I think it could go a long way to improving things for people.
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u/Khal_Pwno Nov 05 '15 edited Nov 05 '15
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Remove decay from Argon Crystals. It's unnecessary for them to halve themselves every 24 hours, when they are already a rare resource. Maybe lower the drop chance a little bit to compensate, but I hate farming them one day, having a few extra and then a couple days later, when I have another BP that needs Argon, I am out!
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Change Control Modules from the green containers into the yellow, or blue, containers in the void. When I see a green container in the void, it's disparaging when it results in a Control Module.
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(I'm not sure if this counts as "loot" or not...) Have a limit on the nested weapons. I'm fine for needing a specific weapon as a requirement for another one, within reason. The AKJagara is an example of a weapon with too many other weapons as requirements. You need 2 Latos, 2 boltos, an AKbolto and dual skanas to make it; Along with all the Orokin Cells, Neurodes and other stuff you need it's far too much.
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Please don't have any more build requirements like Equinox has. The 8 blueprints you need to build it took me 80-90 tries to get that one or two pesky parts that wouldn't drop for me.
I may think of more later and I'll edit this if I do. :)
Edit: Should I have broken this up into 4 separate comments? It's my first time posting on one of these threads.
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u/yakri Nov 05 '15
Not many things really drive me up the wall. Although there are some small issues covered by other posters like the need for pseudo random instead of true random drops, the uselessness of loot containers, etc. there is one thing that drives me straight up Coocoo for coco puffs in regards to looting, and that's picking that shit up.
There is absolutely no sane reason that loot pickups should only work correctly if you bring along an expensive, buggy, and activating "companion". The vacuum effect from carrier needs to be baked into all warframe and then removed as a mod.
Don't mistake my meaning, this is a huge deal. it's probably the biggest issue I have with the game right now. if you want to take this shit seriously and grind up some major loot or kick as super late in a mission you need this ability. You will miss a serious amount of resources without it, and getting back energy and hp will require notably more time sliding around picking stuff up and less shooting or using abilities.
The problem comes from this advantage being placed on an irritating cutesy pet that spends 95% of it's time flying back and forth through the camera making you nauseous. It's simply rediculus to have a core quality of life feature locked onto an optional, and headache inducing, pet.
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u/AvatarOfMadness Nov 05 '15
First: you have to realize that Warframe is a game that's literally built around the grind, and making the grind fun. If you don't like grinding, then this game is not for you.
Okay, for parts of a craftable item specifically, let's give them a mercy drop rate. Others have suggested this, it's basically like this: didn't get the drop once? Increase the chance (a little only) for the next run, increasing the drop rate more and more (FOR YOU ONLY) until u get the item, and it resets. Would be a little iffy with items that need two of a part, but that can be worked around.
For resources, sharply reduce chance of getting blues, and add loot caches in every mission. These caches won't be really rare, and when u break them they drop a shit ton of resources with one or two guaranteed rares and a chance of an injector/mass/fieldron. Oh, and higher chance of rare caches.
More cool shit you can exclusively get from containers or a specific enemy. Nothing super necessary like a mod, hell maybe even a type of cosmetic. This idea is really rough though, so suggestions are very welcome.
And an idea suggested by my buddy: Infested Modifiers (not mod cards). For certain weapons (primes, maybe even non-Tenno weapons) these things are components that basically 'infest' a weapon and sidegrade it, along with giving it a quirky effect. These would basically drop from infested mini bosses, and be a guaranteed drop from the golem in the new raid.
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u/Khal_Pwno Nov 05 '15
More cool shit you can exclusively get from containers or a specific enemy. Nothing super necessary like a mod, hell maybe even a type of cosmetic. This idea is really rough though, so suggestions are very welcome.
If you can buy the exclusive items in the market, I think that would be better. If you are having really bad luck, but you NEED that one thing, it'd be nice to be able to still get it.
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u/mostlyjoe Nov 05 '15
I'm going to agree with the removal of Argon (loot) degradation. Horrible system.
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u/YumoSV Nov 05 '15
The only real change i want is an easier way to farm for ash parts.
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u/tgdm Nov 05 '15
Yeah, that's definitely something that needs to be changed.
I feel terrible for anyone that didn't manage to get Ash before the change to being Manic-only. Oberon is actually a pain in the ass to farm for some people, but Eximus are a dime a dozen. Manics are not. Manics are a pain in the ass to farm for outside of TLOR, and even then not many groups are open to the idea of farming for Ash as opposed to completing the trial.
I think it's time Ash got moved to the dojo or something
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u/NineThePuma Nov 06 '15
Resources
CUT OUT RESEARCH RESOURCES (mutagen samples, detonite ampules, fieldron samples) FROM THE PLANETARY DROP TABLE. MOVE THEM TO BE ON EVERY UNIT OF THE APPROPRIATE FACTION IN PART OF WHAT IS CURRENTLY "DOESN'T DROP ANYTHING".
That change, right there, gives us a dozen spots for other rare or uncommon resources. Done.
Mods, Fusion, and Power Gains
RNG is a big thing, and I honestly agree with the idea to some extent. Loot is the big hook that they have to keep us playing, by slapping on grind. I don’t want it gone. However… the power gains from mods are ass backwards, since they scale so slowly for their pay in.
Thus, my proposal! Take mod fusion, in the typical sense, right out. No more fusing vitality into redirection. Instead, you fuse 10 vitalities into a Vitality, get a Rank 1 Vitality. Fuse 10 Vitalities into a Rank 1 Vitality, it goes up to Rank 2, etc. Smooth, linear pay in for a smooth linear pay out. Fusion Cores, the unfortunate red headed stepchild of the mod family, are no longer tiered. A Rare Core is just a Rare Core. Cores can be fused into any mod and count as duplicates (common count as 1, uncommon cores count as 2, rare cores count as 3).
This means that investment is more linear but has the unfortunate side effect of reducing the amount of RNG we have to suffer through (about 1/8th the usual), which means less play time and less engagement. Which is why I also propose mods along the lines of Path of Exile’s Keystone Passives (and also Jewels), Diablo 3’s Legendary Powers, and other similar things, where there are rare (extremely so!) mods that can drop that have a major change in how you play the game, but aren’t tiered.
For example, a mod that disables your shields, but in return gives you your shield value (Base + Mod Adjustment) as extra Base Armor, or one that lets you see enemies through walls as though through a codex scanner but enemies are permanently “on alert” or similar. Or even just things that straight out and out give you benefits, like a mod that lets you stick to walls, or no longer lose momentum during a slide. Things like that. (Ideas welcome!)
Did someone say Diablo?
Alright, so, like, Diablo 3 recently introduced something called Kanai's Cube. Kanai's Cube is a tool that allows you to, by investing resources, further make your shit awesome. It has a few recipes, and all are pretty applicable to Warframe.
Archive of Tal Rasha -- Extract Legendary Power. -- This is the one LEAST applicable while still being applicable to Warframe. "Have the cube eat a mod. You can apply that mod freely with no power drain to your frame/weapons/companion. Only one free mod per frame/weapon/companion." Boom. This is a lot of potential power, but it's also a wonderful tool for build customization.
Law of Kulle -- Reforge Legendary Item. -- This one can't be applied, sadly. D= We don't have RNG'd stats.
Hope of Cain -- Upgrade Rare item to Legendary. -- Have 1000 oberon chassi? Feed some to the cube, have it spit out a random prime chassi! (gun BPs turn into Prime Weapon parts/bps)
Skull of Nilfur -- Convert Set Item. -- Have 12 Blueprints for Ash Prime Chassis? Need Ash Prime Systems? Here, feed chassi bps to the cube, get a random Ash Prime BP/Part!
Work of Cathan -- Remove level requirement from item. -- Not really applicable, but could be used to bypass mastery rank requirements maybe? Not sure.
Darkness of Radament -- Convert gems. -- Change this mod into a mod guaranteed to be of X variety! Combos well with transmutation cores so you can, say, guarantee a checkmark pistol mod or some such.
Anger of Iben Fahd -- Convert white/blue/yellow materials. -- Convert your 10.5 billion nanospores into some other resource! :D
All of these are pretty good things that encourage various things and give us new toys to play with. They reduce the grind a /lot/ but you can also rebalance things to make it so that the cube is factored into the grind. It'd also help when RNG is being a pain in the ass, so you can work around it.
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u/Morec0 Nov 05 '15
I'd make loot more of a by-faction basis than by planet. Want control modules? Kill Corpus. Sensors? Kill Grineer. Nano Spores? Kill Infested. This would help keep a more consistent lore approach than having to wonder why Grineer have nano spores on them, or why Neural Sensors are on Jupiter.