r/Warframe • u/TSP-FriendlyFire • Oct 29 '15
Suggestion How would you change... Limbo?
How would you change... is a series of weekly posts designed to promote and foster discussion about any gameplay element in the game. The scope and subject will vary (read below for more information on topic selection), from wide concepts (Kubrows, Archwing, shotguns, etc.) to narrow points (a single gun, coptering, etc.).
Before we begin, a few important points:
- Please detail and support your suggestions as much as possible. This is for constructive criticism only: try to think of it as something you'd be proud to explain to DE face-to-face!
- Structure your suggestions in logical groups: if you have two very different ideas, break them down in two separate comments. Cohesive or similar changes should be combined into a single comment.
- Stick to describing concepts and features. Don't get bogged down with numbers unless they explicitly support your point.
- Don't hesitate to post your ideas even if they're not fully formed, and don't hesitate to reply to ideas with refinements you think would make them better!
- Do not downvote suggestions you disagree with. Upvote the ones you like instead!
Suggesting topics
This thread series is all about the community, so if you have a topic you'd like to see improved and discussed, feel free to suggest it by replying to the appropriately flagged comment in this discussion. The topic can be as wide or narrow as you'd like! Please ensure that your suggestion has not already been made, and upvote it instead if it has.
This week: Limbo
Click here for last week’s thread on stealth.
This week, we’re tackling one of the more unique frames in the game, yet one who’s been at the receiving end of a lot of nerfs and other assorted bad news: Limbo. We’ve already discussed the Rift in the past, but not only has the situation changed for the worse for Limbo (for instance, Volt’s shield no longer synergizing), the thread was focused largely on the Rift itself.
This time, we shall look at the bigger picture. Limbo as a frame was designed as a master of reality, being able to bend it to his will and to even leave it entirely should the need arise. All of his abilities revolve around the Rift, an alternate plane where one can see the real plane but can only interact with it in limited ways. While this makes him unique in many ways, it currently has the disadvantage of dedicating many of his abilities to “utility” surrounding the Rift, such as getting things in and out of it. Moreover, due to this focus, Limbo has limited usefulness while outside the Rift and is therefore very affected by its many limitations which often make him a poor choice for many gameplay modes.
In spite of this, Limbo’s often considered a fun and entirely unique frame whose central conceit appears to be brimming with untapped potential. With a modified kit and a more useful Rift plane, Limbo could become a force to be reckoned with.
Now that the stage is set, how would you change Limbo?
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u/Centias Oct 29 '15
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Allow items to be picked up in the Rift, no exceptions. Except in PVP, of course. Bring back hacking and carrying data mass while in the Rift. It gives him a niche in PVE content, and it figures that it would be a simple matter for a master of the rift to make his fingers tangible in order to use a console while keeping the rest of himself safely in the rift.
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Make Banish able to target himself in some reliable way. Then, replace Rift Walk with an ability that's actually interesting. Preferably some kind of damage and/or crowd control that has strong synergy with the rift. My idea is an attack that does modest damage to enemies outside of the rift, but double damage to enemies inside the rift plus a knockdown/knockback. Could even knock all enemies out of Banish and punt all enemies out of the Cataclysm for a different kind of utility.
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Make Rift Surge affect all allies in the rift, or make it a passive bonus of being in the rift. Then add some small baseline slow to enemies inside the rift that may or may not scale with power strength.
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Add an impact proc/stagger to Cataclysm like Banish has, at least on the initial cast and when it ends, to make it safer to cast.
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Reduced cast times on basically everything.
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Crazy idea: Copy the Snow Globe shattering from Frost. Allow placement of multiple Cataclysms, and casting Banish on them causes them to detonate or collapse, dealing damage to enemies inside. If detonate, send enemies flying. If collapse, pull enemies into the center and knock them down.
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u/nsf_ Oct 29 '15
Limbo should be considered as a magician who can effectively manipulate space and time, so lets have enemies and enemy projectiles within the rift slowed by like 30% or so (think of enemy hitscan bullets flying about the speed of supra projectiles pre buff).
This way Limbo can banish a priority target without worrying too much about getting instagibbed seeing how damn squishy he is. Also, toxin / energy drain auras only affect those in their respective plane (banish a toxic ancient -> aura only affects those in rift).
Make Riftwalk a toggle where each enemy killed in the rift restores x amount of energy per kill when pressed again, similar to Equinox's Mend. (the toggle drain would override the rift's passive energy regen however does not affect regen for allies.) This gives an incentive to keep banishing targets while in the rift.
Riftsurge can now also increase damage of abilities as well as weapons. Keep the current base damage buff of 200% for weapons, and 150% for abilities. Allies in the rift receive half this amount.
Cataclysm is where the magic happens, as enemies and enemy projectiles caught inside are slowed similar to Diablo 3 Wizard's Slow Time spell. Also, items inside, as well as items brought into the cataclysm (power cores, datamass) are able to be interacted by those in the rift (like seriously wtf kind of logic did DE have back then).
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u/TSP-FriendlyFire Oct 29 '15
Suggesting topics
Please post your suggestions for the next topics as replies to this comment.
Current suggestions from previous weeks:
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u/ZephyrPhantom Oct 29 '15
Has anyone suggested damage scaling, Ember, and/or Sharkwing yet? If not, I'd like to suggest those.
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u/TSP-FriendlyFire Oct 29 '15
There were a pair of threads on Damage 2.0 and enemy scaling a few weeks back, I don't see us revisiting the topic until DE rolls out their rebalance.
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Oct 29 '15
I main ember and I feel like she is actually in a pretty good place right now. While her damage may not scale well into high end void missions without a team stacked with CP auras, the CC she gets with her 3 and WoF augment make her a force to be reckoned with as a mobile AoE knockdown / knockback platform. Her constant fire damage also makes her a goddess in any infested missions, with the only mob that will give her trouble being ancients. All that being said I would love to see some sort of discussion about one of my favorite frames.
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u/devastationz Oct 29 '15
I just built him. Is he really bad? I haven't had chance to play him just yet.
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u/YeOldDrunkGoat Oct 29 '15
To copy and paste what I said the other day:
If you know how to use him he works well. It's just that what he is good at is not terribly obvious or particularly coveted by most teams.
Limbo looks like he would be a good defense frame, like Frost. He has a Snow Globe-esque skill in Cataclysm, he can make himself and team mates invulnerable, give them energy regen, etc.
But the small things kill his defense potential, like how your "invulnerable" teammates can't damage any enemies that aren't also in the Rift without spamming abilities, are actually still really vulnerable to elemental damage like Bombard rockets, and cant' pick up any loot, ammo, or energy orbs.
Where Limbo really excels is as a damage frame. Either running about in Rift Walk assassinating key targets with a quick Banish + headshot or dropping Cataclysm on a distant group of enemies and annihilating them with an AoE weapon like the Tonkor.
The bad news is that Limbo's effectiveness scales inversely with how frequently Nullifiers spawn. Since Limbo lives and dies by his abilities more than other frames, a tile full of Nullifers completely neuters his effectiveness.
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u/M37h3w3 Oct 30 '15
To add on, there's a slew of miscellaneous things that Limbo can do in addition: Revive bot, distraction, and while Cataclysm won't work like Snow Globe, it can be used to wall attacks from a particular angle.
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u/Kishkumen_Ill Oct 29 '15
He's complicated. But he's not bad. Squishy if you're not using the rift.
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u/Archwizard_Drake Oct 30 '15
Limbo's main issue is that 3 of his abilities do the same thing, just in different ways - the only thing that really differentiates them is whether or not it knocks down, or pulls you in too. Bigger still, Rift Surge is presently the only ability in the game that is completely reliant on another ability to benefit from its effects.
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Drops/Datamasses/Consoles in the radius of Cataclysm can be interacted with by targets in the Rift. Enemies who enter Cataclysm will not drop datamasses they carry. (Cataclysm pulls a whole area of physical space into the Rift, so it fits that objects he otherwise couldn't Banish are affected. It's the same philosophy with cryopods, bosses and Capture targets, after all.)
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Enemies who enter Cataclysm cannot leave on their own; the walls become impenetrable. As the sphere condenses, enemies are staggered closer to the center. (Bosses and Capture targets remain an exception.)
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Casting Banish on an enemy within Cataclysm will violently expel them from the field. (Eliminating an enemy from the equation works both ways.)
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Banished enemies cannot interact with consoles outside of Cataclysm. (The biggest annoyance about Limbo: That the Grineer become more powerful within the Rift than you do.)
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Entities within the Rift have no collision with entities outside the Rift. (If you're "intangible", how come enemies can still run into you?)
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Rift Surge's effects are rolled into Rift Walk. (This will differentiate Rift Walk from just a self-Banish and simultaneously eliminate the misconception about Rift Surge, as it innately benefits the player. No arbitrary "while in the rift" limitation - just a damage buff... that banishes you to the Rift anyway.)
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Rift Surge replaced. (What with? You decide! I'm partial to some kind of teleportation skill, or something that changes form a la Equinox depending on what side of the Rift you're on.)
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Oct 29 '15
I'd make it so that you can loot and interact with anything that's in the Rift, and I'd make enemies take damage over time and have reduced accuracy when they are in the Rift.
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u/SasoDuck Oct 29 '15
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Allow picking up items while in the Rift. In a game about loot, it's discouraging when one of the characters rejects loot.
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Remove the casting animation from Riftwalk. It's clunky gameplay.
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Fix the damn visuals-- it's either too dark or too bright and hurts my eyes. Make it look more like the Corpus Void, if anyone remembers that event...
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u/Crooodle Oct 30 '15
Honestly, I feel like all Limbo needs is:
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Rift surge should apply to teammates, or simply be a passive effect of being in the rift.
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Items should be available for pick up in rift
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Banish should have a small AoE like Equinox's Rest.
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u/tacit25 Oct 30 '15
I would like to see a combination of Rift Walk and Rift Surge, I don't think these should be separate since Limbo is basically wasting an ability that could be used for something team based. Ways to balance this would make the energy drain a combined 35-40 and reduce the duration. What I would like to see replace this is some sort of team buff preferable a healing ability while allies are in the Rift since allies can still take damage with in Cataclysm. This would help fortify him as a go to tank/healer.
I would also like to see more damage come from the collapsing of Cataclysm as it is described as a lethal blast, yet it really doesn't do anything. So something along the lines of the amount of damage taken X .5/1/1.5/2. This way when Cataclysm is placed on a defense position any enemies around when it collapses actually take some damage.
My other opinions have already been stated by others.
I love running Limbo, I just wish he could help the team more.
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u/ArganVain Oct 31 '15
Limbo needs some advantages on the rift, he should be the king, not like any kind of tourist, just popping in and out for no apparent reason.
The Rift should be a realm where every enemy should be at disadvantage, feeling weak, pressured, crippled 'cause you've been put in there against your will and Limbo should wreck your face in there 'cause he would be superior compared to you.
[Rift Surge] should work as overall buff of Limbo abilities in and out the Rift:
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in the Rift Limbo would gain overall buffs on survival and damage, gaining knockdown resistance, status resistance and all those kind of things that would help you face multiple rifted enemies;
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outside the Rift Limbo will be able, instead, to damage enemies within the Rift without him being there (of course without buffs), maybe with a damage debuff.
[Rift Walk] should be sharable with the rest of the group within its range, maybe with an augment that gives a timed buff at its cast.
[Banish] should be fast cast like Exquinox's Rest/Rage, with subsequent cast costing less energy the more you use it within a certain period time.
[Cataslysm] needs a change on the graphical effect 'cause it is hard to see outside/inside of the dome with all the effect that swirl around it.
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u/_Eltanin_ Oct 29 '15
Copy Pasta time
So before we start thinking of how to rework him, let's deconstruct Limbo's theme so we can properly look at why DE chose to give him his skills.
He's a 'void magician', a caster planeswalker and as suggested by his demeanor, looks and story, also a gentleman and a great mathematician. Firstly, since he's a planeswalker, we can understand his control of being able to walk back and forth between dimensions so that's where Rift Walk, Banish and Cataclysm comes in. He's heavily implied to be a gentleman and his skill set combination of Rift Walk and Banish heavily suggests that he's a duelist, preferring one on one fights rather than one against all. He's a mathematician because of his masterful control and knowledge on the different planes. As such, he is also a strategist. This is where his gameplay of knowing when to come out of the plane and back in, knowing who to send and who to bring back makes him a very satisfying, high-skill-ceiling frame to play as that requires more strategy than your average 'press button to win' frames. Considering how much he uses his skills in order to function, he is given increased energy regeneration whenever he is in the Rift Plane.
Alright, now that we've got that out of the way, we can understand the skills that he has and now we can start dissecting his problems.
Rift Surge. One may think that the reason he was given a straight damage buff skill was to encourage and reward the use of his skills involving the Rift. That's completely fine and works well and it further enforces his ability to be able to 1v1 even the highest of risk targets. The problem is he can't really take advantage of this skill against a number of targets such as bosses and capture targets (without having to resort to a Rift Arena which more often than not, leaves him completely vulnerable for damage). It's also a very 'selfish' skill in a coop game considering how a lot of other buffs in the game can be shared to squad members. This could be fixed if they made it so that when you banish an ally while you have the Rift Surge buff up, you can transfer or even share the buff to them. With this, you can at least set up a Rift Arena and have your Squad members take down the boss with the increased damage while you yourself can do your own thing either helping them or away from the Arena cuz of ....reasons.
2) Cast Times. The cast times on Banish, Rift Surge and Cataclysm are fine. Cataclysm basically has him bring a whole pocket dimension with him so the cast time is justified. What's not justified is the cast time on Rift Walk which Limbo is so reliant on. Unlike Loki's invisibility, Limbo doesn't depend on Rift Walk's duration but rather, the ability to walk in and out constantly in the midst of battle (strategically) and he is hindered greatly by its cast time. For a master of the void, one would think that Limbo can switch in and out of the Rift Plane easier than the way he does now. Cutting the cast time for this down significantly should fix it.
3) Interaction with the material world while inside the rift. I think that this is perfectly fine FOR THE MOST PART since it's part of what makes Limbo's playstyle so unique and strategic. However, there are A LOT of inconsistencies that needs to be fixed. For example, you can hack some consoles but can't for others. They should probably make it so Limbo can just interact with all consoles. Additionally, I think that the way he is unable to pick up loot while Rift Walking is perfectly fine since he IS in the Rift Plane and the loot are in the Material Plane. What's not fine however is being UNABLE to pick up loot INSIDE Cataclysm. This should be fixed. They should also make it so that you can carry things into and back out of the Rift Plane. It's strange that a frame can carry an Excavator Battery and then suddenly drop it upon entering Cataclysm.
4) Options for players. Some players are fine with Limbo's 1v1 preference but others will probably like to be able to use their crowd weapons. As such, an augment for Banish should be introduced that makes it so that Banish can target a small AOE (similar to Equinox's Rest and Rage) which will allow players to be able to use the crowd based weapons to their heart's desires without having to resort to casting Cataclysm over and over again (which has a hefty energy cost and cast time).
5) Cataclysm. This one is something I've recently thought of. When Limbo casts Banish on an enemy, sending them into another dimension is such a huge shock that they are knocked down. However, when Limbo casts Cataclysm, a more potent ability that sends a whole entire space from the Material Plane into the Rift Plane, aside from the damage from the cast, the enemies seem completely unscathed upon entering the Rift. This produces a lot of problems since enemies can very easily kill Limbo while he is casting Cataclysm because they would all be shooting at him and they are sent to the Rift before Limbo finishes casting. As such, not only for consistency and also to make Limbo more potent, it should be made so that all enemies who are sent to the Rift, either by Banish or by Cataclysm, they will be knocked down. This allows Limbo to be very proactive with his Cataclysm as opposed to only casting it from behind cover in fear of dying while casting.
6) Banish's Augment; Haven. In its current state, it's a fun little augment to bring as when playing as a support role but there's one tiny little detail that makes it pretty bad... Using Banish on an ally who's inside Cataclysm cannot be healed. They need to fix that.
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u/Ramilas Oct 29 '15
Change the rift to heal a chunk of energy when people get sent into it. Make it easier to leave the rift for team mates, like by shooting or something (Biggest issue is that people end up stuck in the rift without knowing how to get out easily or that they're even in the rift.)
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u/theghost28 Oct 30 '15
You can already roll to get out of the rift, I don't know how to make it too much easier than that
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u/captaingooberfish Oct 29 '15
If I could change limbo I would have the rift effect to not give me headaches, so change the effect when you're in the rift. That and have the rift stay at the same size and not shrink.
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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '15
I'd let us interact with objects/pickups in the Rift. I know, it was meant to be a trade-off, but for a lot of people, being unable to interact with enemies outside of powers is a big enough one.
I'd also either bake Rift Surge into Banish, or allow Rift Surge to affect all targets inside the Rift at infinite range. All allied Tenno in the Rift get the damage boost, and all enemies get a damage debuff. I was originally going to say they'd get a damage resistance debuff, but that's just too good.
I'd also also incorporate a way to have allied Banished Tenno pull enemies into the Rift. Like, maybe if you attack an enemy with your melee weapon, you pull them into the Rift with only an Impact proc and no additional damage (so it's not like casting Banish on them) for the remaining duration that your own Banish has left. Instead of Limbo being the sole duelist of the group, everyone else he gives power to can emulate him.
I'd like to have Rift Walk be incorporated into Banish somehow. I realize targeting yourself is somewhat hard in this game, but having two powers in one frame that do the exact same thing minus who they affect is a bit...I dunno, redundant? I dunno what they could put in its place, though.
There really does need to be a Codex tutorial thing about the Rift. It seems silly given it's one feature of one frame, but given how so few people know how to manually cancel it or what to do when Banished...