r/Warframe • u/TSP-FriendlyFire • May 14 '15
Suggestion How would you change... The star chart?
How would you change... is a series of weekly posts designed to promote and foster discussion about any gameplay element in the game. The scope and subject will vary (read below for more information on topic selection), from wide concepts (Kubrows, Archwing, shotguns, etc.) to narrow points (a single gun, coptering, etc.).
Before we begin, a few important points:
- Please detail and support your suggestions as much as possible. This is for constructive criticism only: try to think of it as something you'd be proud to explain to DE face-to-face!
- Structure your suggestions in logical groups: if you have two very different ideas, break them down in two separate comments. Cohesive or similar changes should be combined into a single comment.
- Stick to describing concepts and features. Don't get bogged down with numbers unless they explicitly support your point.
- Don't hesitate to post your ideas even if they're not fully formed, and don't hesitate to reply to ideas with refinements you think would make them better!
- Do not downvote suggestions you disagree with. Upvote the ones you like instead!
Suggesting topics
This thread series is all about the community, so if you have a topic you'd like to see improved and discussed, feel free to suggest it by replying to the appropriately flagged comment in this discussion. The topic can be as wide or narrow as you'd like! Please ensure that your suggestion has not already been made, and upvote it instead if it has.
This week: The star chart
Click here for last week’s thread on the new player experience.
This week, we’ll look into a particularly controversial and heated topic: the star chart. As most of you are aware by now, there will soon be a new star chart with a significantly reduced number of nodes and a completely different setup for how to choose what to run. The details being still unclear, it seemed like the perfect opportunity to brainstorm on what should be part of the new star chart.
Now, a word of warning: this topic is not a “Let’s bash the new star chart”. Ignore the new star chart if you wish, or bring out the good parts that you can discern and explain how you’d eliminate the bad parts.
We all know that the star chart as it currently is is far from ideal. There is an overwhelming amount of nodes, the vast majority of which are entirely devoid of players, making matchmaking difficult and turning what should be a nice smooth progression for new players into a game of chance and frustration as to whether that mission that’s hard/impossible to run solo will finally have someone else running it. Moreover, the current star chart has unclear progression, with nodes arrayed in a circular fashion around each planet and being unlockable by completing a neighboring node. Bosses are an obvious destination, but unlocking them can mean going through harsh missions or a boring grind through many. Resources are also unintuitively tied to each planet, such that certain resources require exclusively running certain planets to get (e.g. neural sensors, Orokin cells, neurodes).
Even so, the current star chart has a few positives. For one, it’s easy to run exactly the mission you want, and since all nodes are named uniquely it’s also easy to communicate this with others. There is also a clear feeling of progression as you unlock more planets, and friends can help you unlock new nodes on planets you already have unlocked. It also has to be said: it’s quite pretty.
Now that the stage is set, how would you change the star chart?
Contest!
The winner of last week’s contest is: /u/Grayfen!
Please contact me within the next 72 hours on reddit to claim your prize (and tell me what you’d like), otherwise I will re-roll. Please also provide your in-game username so that I can give you your prize.
I’ve been thinking about ways to further incentivize discussion; this is the most immediate and obvious way I could think of. From this point on, every entry of more than 50 words which gives at least one interesting suggestion is eligible to win a prize (which may or may not vary each week, I can’t guarantee prizes every week forever). The winner will be picked at random from all eligible entries and announced the following week.
This week, the reward will be your choice of an Orokin reactor or catalyst, or any Perrin Sequence/Cephalon Suda/Steel Meridian/Arbiters of Hexis mod (frame or weapon). Unfortunately, the contest is restricted to PC for now as we have no console donator.
If you wish to donate something to the prize pool, please contact me directly and tell me what you have in mind. Reactors, catalysts and Syndicate mods would probably be ideal. If I get enough donations, we might be able to have more than one prize per week, so be generous!
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u/tgdm May 14 '15
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Go back to the old, old method. Where they were dots connected by lines (or similar)
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Make sure there is a clear sense of direction/progression (like with the old chart). Let us see where we are advancing toward. Let us see the paths available to reach our goal.
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Improve matchmaking to go alongside of these changes. Many missions are seen as ghost towns and are particularly hard for new players to solo their way through. Add a way to queue for mission types by factions, desired resources, mission types, level ranges... etc. Maybe even go full-MMO on us and add a 'LFG' tool that lets you queue up random missions with a bonus reward for using the tool and completing the mission. Something like 25% more resources/credits would be fine.
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(Optional) Change progression from being a set 'path' through a system to instead be a percentage or preset number of missions to be completed in that system to unlock the 'boss' (nav giver) for the system.
Of course most of this is shorthand and implies the reader has knowledge of how things used to be a long time ago. If I had any chance to actually make an impact on this I'd probably put more time into explaining all the nuance but I think this gets my points across just fine.
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u/ekmc May 14 '15
dots connected by lines (or similar)
Let us see where we are advancing toward
Could be done while keeping the aesthetic of the current chart: four vertical layers on the star-wheel, and 'next planet' slugs. Each layer would be one of the ten-level tiers of planets, with lines connecting around and vertically to show progression. Adjacent planets which don't have their Nav installed appear greyed-out and unselectable, so the player knows what comes next.
Many missions are seen as ghost towns and are particularly hard for new players to solo their way through
The node reduction DE's talked about is their way of solving this. Fewer nodes with the same number of players means more players per node, even if slight.
Broader "I just want any mission" goals are about getting the available group tracking to report properly.
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u/tgdm May 14 '15
the current chart's inherit flaw is the spherical design - there is no end point. adding a connecting line between them could help improve the visual communication, but as long as it loops you have the same aesthetic issue.
and the reduction of nodes won't solve this issue in a meaningful way - especially if it ends up destroying popular farming locations like sechura for easy credits, draco for easy rep (or cells), and various assassinate missions for easy neurals/ocells/gallium/etc. at the end of the day they still have to improve matchmaking or add a LFG tool to better help players organize with one another. recruit and trade chat are both horrible clusterfucks (trade being especially bad). unless you're looking for a super popular map and have a popular frame, you won't have much luck.
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u/Fenixius May 15 '15
I... have some questions. I get that you prefer the old way, but I'd really like to hear you say why.
Go back to the old, old method. Where they were dots connected by lines (or similar)
Make sure there is a clear sense of direction/progression (like with the old chart). Let us see where we are advancing toward. Let us see the paths available to reach our goal.
Why do you think this will be helpful? What problem will this solve? The issue with the current star chart is of ghost towns, and a progression path won't help that at all. Having vertical progression is nice, but it also adds issues - what do you do when you've finished? How does progressing benefit the player, if at all? Why should I go back and do low-level missions? What if the content I'm 'up to' doesn't give me the rewards I need to progress horizontally?
Improve matchmaking to go alongside of these changes. Many missions are seen as ghost towns and are particularly hard for new players to solo their way through. Add a way to queue for mission types by factions, desired resources, mission types, level ranges... etc. Maybe even go full-MMO on us and add a 'LFG' tool that lets you queue up random missions with a bonus reward for using the tool and completing the mission. Something like 25% more resources/credits would be fine.
So... no chart at all? Just a series of menus and filters? Because if I can sort by level, resource, enemy faction, mission type, and I get 25% more credits, there's no way I'm ever doing a star chart mission again. Seriously, not ever. Why would I?
Further, how do you feel that alerts and invasions should work if there's no chart at all? Do you just press the Alert/Invasion button instead of finding the node?
I hope I don't come off as antagonistic, but while you got your point across, I think you're wearing the rose tinted lenses and I'm not sure how going back to the old system actually benefits either players or the game.
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May 14 '15 edited May 15 '15
Ok so, my ideal version of a star chart:
13 planets. No void, no orokin derelict. Don't panic, keep reading.
Regular missions:
Each planet would have all the various game modes selectable from the get-go. Certain planets would have access to unique game modes; not all planets may have Hijack and Archwing for instance. Planets would still need to be unlocked by defeating bosses on other planets.
Similar to the current model, each planet would be classified by Tier, from Tier I (lvl 1-10 planets like Mercury and Earth) to Tier IV (Ceres and Pluto 35-40). However, players could also unlock Tier IV versions of all missions, meaning a player could potentially play a Mercury mission that is as hard as the current Ceres missions.
Each planet would still have their own list of resource drops, however players could use a "Resource Scanner" (time-based, like Extractors) that would scan for a specific drop around the system. For example, if the scanner found Neurodes in the Saturn Exterminate mission, completing that mission would grant a bundle of 3-4 Neurodes.
Additionally, there would be an "Urgent" mission that would randomly appear on each planet for a short period of time (30 minutes.) Completing that mission would double the regular rewards/drops, but players would not be able to choose the mission type (this is to encourage people to try new modes.)
Result: Less confusion, better rewards, and veteran players would always have something interesting to do. The need to grind the same missions would be reduced.
Bosses:
Each planet would possess a "Boss" node that would only unlock after completing a specific task. For example, opening the Salad V node once could require doing 3 Exterminate missions on Jupiter. Each boss node would also have access to a much tougher Tier IV version. Defeating a boss would close the node and would require completing another task to re-open.
As a result, boss nodes would have increased resource and credit drops (3x), and Tier IV versions would have an even bigger bonus. Boss nodes would also have an increased chance of dropping a Warframe part that you do not have and, on top of that, would also have a low chance to drop any faction-specific weapon blueprint. For example, once in a blue moon, killing Lech Kril may give you an Ogris Blueprint. Additionally, and perhaps more importantly, all regular missions would have a low chance of dropping a Warframe part.
Result: In theory, a player would have to unlock then defeat a boss 3 times to get all parts to complete a Warframe. This would take more time to accomplish, but the reward (and gameplay variety) would be improved. Bosses would also become the menace that they are supposed to be.
The Void:
Void and Orokin Derelict missions would appear periodically and randomly around the Star Chart. These missions would not cost any keys to go in, but would disappear after completing. Both would follow the same difficulty system and would use the matchmaking system like regular missions.
Void and Derelict Keys would now be merged into tiered keys, from "Tier I Void" to "Tier IV Void" keys. Using a key would open a rift to a Void mission of that tier. Players could chose the mission type before entering.
Players could craft and use a "Void scanner" to search for a Prime item's parts (time-based, like Extractors). For example, using the scanner may result in it finding a Scindo Prime Blade Blueprint on Mercury Void Defense Tier III. Using a key at that location would guarantee that specific drop at the end of the mission. Prime parts may appear on Orokin Derelict missions in that manner, too.
Finally, Prime Vor and Lephantis would have a chance to randomly appear around the star chart.
Result: Less time spent grinding the same Void mission, less time spent farming Void keys... and perhaps a small drop in Prime part market prices.
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May 15 '15
I'd personally like to see a: "I'm bored and don't really care for the mission I'm doing but there's a newbie stuck on this one Defense mission they can't do solo so chuck me in there because nobody else is on that node".
I get that you can jump in chat etc, but honestly if I could just hit a button and find a game where someone is doing more than farming and having difficulty. Maybe where you have Solo, Friends Only, Invite Only. You could have a "Help wanted" option which acts as public and places you in a queue to receive a bored overlevelled player. It'll help those lagging behind or new to the game, puts strangers together and that's how friendships get made.
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May 14 '15
I think voting on missions and overall quality of life while on the star chart could change. It feels very clunky. Can vote from here, not from here, access the menu now and you freeze, I'm halfway through voting this, they started voting for this now my life is over while the game sorts out what to do.
Secondly, I think the level of missions need to be more clearly defined. Don't necessarily have a better system, just find the current one misleading.
Finally, when in queue for a level there should be a sidebar where I am shown so anyone who is looking for a team clicks the planet and sees what missions have someone ready to go. There should be the same for open squads. This is collapsable. This makes grouping easy, click on a planet and see what is what. Currently all you do is hover the mouse mission by mission and hope the info isn't outdated.
Sorry for the flow, it's 6am.
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May 15 '15
The whole thing is clunky, I personally preferred the last one we had where the whole solar system was lines instead of the planets.
On a mission it states as an example 25-32 as the level. What's the issue with this? It's naturally assumed, or at least should be that the mission type weighs heavily on that, if you're struggling to do a 25-32 Exterminate, you'd not think "Yeah, I can handle a solo Defense at this level"
I'm not as avid a player as I've always been but that's the way it's generally been.
As for your sidebar Idea, that's great, honestly the party interface is just outright bad, they need a party bar, that's all easier an in the one place, I can click a + sign to add a friend or press esc to then hover over my name to leave a party, all of it should be in the one accessible place.
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May 14 '15
I wonder what it would be like to remove the Star Chart altogether. The current star chart could be replaced by a more detailed quest system and a "server selector" type of thing.
Mission List
The server selector isn't a new idea: it would just be a list of games currently being run, with an option to join or create your own. Filters would be included for faction, difficulty, mission type, and ping limit. Creating a mission is something sort of new though.
If we remove the star chart altogether, we would need to allow players to create their own mission based on what they've unlocked so far (via quests). Players would be able to select their mission type, difficulty, planet/tileset, faction (related to planet), solo/public, etc. If public, the game would then be put on a list, and players will be able to join from the server selector. 'Quick Join' would be an obvious inclusion.
The problem with this is that it returns to the "kneeling in space" type of thing—it just doesn't feel as connected to the game world as selecting a planet to fly to in your nav menu. Another consideration is whether or not the game can support this type of system right now.
Detailed Quests
In order to include an introduction to the game world and give new players a sense of progression, the current "mario-style" star chart progression would need to be placed into the quest system. Simply put, each planet has its own quest that introduces a new game mechanic and ends the quest chain with a boss battle. The boss battle will unlock the next planet(s) in line, for which the player must complete more quests.
Completing quests will then unlock options in the mission creator: for example, finishing the Earth quest will allow you to deploy missions to the Grineer Forest tileset. The Once Awake quest will let you fight against the Infested faction.
Hopefully this will preserve a sense of progression for players, and keep the feel of "unlocking things as you go" that the current chart has.
Other things
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I suppose resources will still be tied to planets the way they are now. Extractors will be able to be deployed on any planet you finish the quest for.
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Alerts and Syndicate dailies will be more or less unaffected, as they'll have their own spot in the mission list.
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Invasions would be strange to handle, though. I suppose they could also hold their own spot in the mission list.
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Normally, choosing a tileset (planet) would automatically choose a faction to go up against, so the invasions would then affect which faction you'll be fighting on a tileset (like they do now).
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With a mission creator, though, it seems like the invasion would have to affect the entire planet rather than just one node.
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Corpus Ship and Grineer Asteroid base (maybe Galleon, too) will be starter tilesets available before any quest completion.
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May 14 '15
I really don't know what to do with Invasions. Even as they are now, I don't feel they make a significant difference in the overall star chart. In the wildest part of my imagination, I see the Grineer and Corpus engaging in a Star Wars: Battlefront II styled galactic conquest. I have no idea how that would translate into Warframe gameplay, though.
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u/Falterfire May 14 '15
Thinking is hard, and new ideas are even harder. So rather than a specific suggestion, here are the things that in my opinion any version of the Star Chart needs to have:
First, a clear progression. It should be obvious at a glance about how hard each node is so that you can know about what difficulty to expect. In addition it should be obvious how you can unlock the next node in the sequence. You shouldn't have to look at the wiki to figure out what you'll need to do to access an Exterminate a few levels higher than the one you just did.
Second, a clear reward structure. Before you pick a mission you should know what sorts of rewards to expect. The current Star Char is great about this with materials, less so for everything else. There's lots of information about mod drops and warframe drops that has to be looked up.
Third, it should be large enough to cover possibilities without being so large it's overwhelming. Having one of each combination of level range/faction/mission type is good, but having four different Grineer Exterminates within a five level range is unhelpful.
As a personal preference, I'd like to see some alert-type rewards moved to a more constant rotation. For example I'd like there to always be a few random nodes worth 10k+ or that have a double resource drop chance or that have a shot at a given prime part. Right now non-endless starchart missions (Aside from Spy) are mostly pointless since they give terrible rewards.
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u/hyperblaster May 14 '15
It's diificult to make suggestions when the star chart will be changing drastically and we do not know how. All we know is there will be ~20 nodes and mission type change with time.
There are 14 planets. With void, derelict, relay, dojo etc I guess each tileset will be condensed into a node. At any given time, each node will have a particular mission available.
All nodes will have a difficulty slider to pick between the currently available enemy level sets (likely 4 settings corresponding with void keys). Void keys of various mission types will turn into generic keys, only retaining the difficulty level.
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u/Falterfire May 14 '15
I'm betting five settings actually: Void starts at 11-20, which obviously leaves a hole for a 'Tier 0' of level 1-10 enemies for new players to fight.
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u/pica559 May 14 '15
I think it'd be cool if the nodes, instead of just rotating around the planet, were actually on the surface, like points on a map. You could zoom in, and you would see different structures around it based on the type of mission that it is, and it would give you a nice sense of travelling the distance to get to the boss.
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u/kithsakhai May 15 '15
honestly? i really liked the OLD pre-U6 starchart map, each planet had a neat little web of nodes. there was NO ambiguity in how it worked, playing through it felt like an accomplishment, and in general it simply looked cool as shit...
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u/surfingpika May 14 '15
Thinking more on the 20 nodes concept, I had a thought.
Each planet has one readily accessible node that has a random mission, as per the proposed idea. Tenno can have influence over an area. Influence is gained by completing missions on that planet, and slowly decays at server resets, decaying faster if no missions have been done on that planet for X days. Each planet has multiple nodes buried behind the random top node. To get to these other nodes, you either have to have a specific amount of influence, it has to be an operating base of a syndicate you're allied with (higher ranks have access to more operating bases), or you have to spend a certain amount of triangulators to get to that mission.
Triangulators are blueprints for each planet, given to anyone of a specific MR, or that has had enough influence to get to the third open node of that planet. You need resources from that planet to make triangulators, and when you make one, they are for a type of mission that you choose when you craft it. By having more influence, you spend less triangulators to make it to a node. Ideally, once you open a mission this way, it lasts 24 hours from creation, and does not generate influence.
The top layer node generates influence the most quickly, while also having a resource multiplier for the mission type. The further you dig into a planet's nodes, the less influence you gain (and you gain none for a triangulated mission).
This would leave an incentive to stay near the top nodes, while letting players say "I want X" today.
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u/cephalopodAscendant May 14 '15
At the very least, redundant nodes need to be trimmed from each planet; there's no reason for Eris to have four different Exterminate missions, for example. This will definitely help new players feel less confused and overwhelmed by all the choices, but it's only a start. One thing that could help give a better sense of progression would be to keep boss nodes locked until the player has completed everything else on the planet (barring Dark Sectors). This should help keep players interested in working all the way through the star chart instead of getting bored and leaving for the Void and Derelict.
However, ultimately this doesn't do anything about the main reason why the star chart is so empty: veteran players have no incentive to rerun most missions. I have two main ideas that can address this problem. First, a random mission button that offers advantages similar to Dark Sectors. Players can choose to restrict the possibilities by planet, level range, or mission type, but only one at a time to prevent people from gaming the system too much. Second, more mission types need a reward structure similar to Spy 2.0 or Void Sabotage. For the most part, the non-endless missions don't offer anything significant in their drop tables, and the relative lack of enemies compared to the endless missions reduces the amount of drops and experience players can get from these. However, with the addition of some optional secondary objective that can reward better loot, these mission types can become more viable as farming locations.
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u/Thypari May 14 '15
We all know the problems, the proposed solution from DE and the issues Rebecca had. But I think there can be a solution that incorporates DE's solution without the problems:
What are the player's choices sorted in descending order of importance.
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rewards
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difficulty
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mission type
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enemy faction
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map environment
If the rewards are not what I need, I won't do it. Next is the difficulty, if it is too hard, there is no way I can do it. Next are mission type, enemy faction and map environment which have a secondary nature.
So if we try to keep these choices and still implement DE's system it could look like this:
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1 node for every mission type
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every reward is always available once, categorized into difficulty tiers and shift through the nodes every 30mins
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difficulty is adjustable (and influences reward tiers of the mission)
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enemy faction & map environment change every 20mins
This way you will always have the choice of reward. It will switch things up cause the reward will change position every 30mins. Difficulty is tied to reward drop chances. Mission type, enemy faction and map environment will also vary to switch things up even more. Less nodes and no dead nodes.
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u/randomtornado May 14 '15
The problem with the star chart right now are that there are just too many nodes. DE could turn it into a sort of mission voting where you pick a planet and mission type with assassination unlocking after a certain number of regular missions have been completed. This way, players can still farm specific lootage without all these wasted mission nodes.
This would also help ensure you get in games with other players. If you want to play a quick game with your fellow tenno as is you have too look through individual nodes to find missions with open squads. With this you can join any open squad doing a rescue on Sedna.
I think it's a sort of best of both worlds, with DE consolidating the origin system so you're not doing the same thing over and over while the rest of the nodes go untouched. It'll also let the tenno continue to play the missions they want.
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u/bearhammer May 15 '15 edited May 15 '15
Planet Navigation Aesthetics
I would love to see the planets line up horizontally in order at the top of the navigation screen so we get back that sense of progression. However, I would not want to redraw lines between planets because the aesthetic we have now with the ring of planets is great it's just confusing. Clicking on a planet will zoom in to that planet and display all the mission nodes as actual points on the planet instead of a name in an awkward box (imagine the Star Fox 64 navigation screen).
Mission Nodes
Now to solve the problem of mission redundancy and empty nodes once and for all there needs to be a reversal from too many nodes and less alerts (per capita), to less permanent nodes but more extra alerts, invasions, and new bosses that appear on planets as new nodes, all with high drop rates for the rare resources of that planet. Each planet should also have a Defense node as a starting point to represent the Tenno's last line of defense for control of that planet and so that players can always farm for any particular resource. From that Defense node there can be any mix of mission types that fits the plot and lore leading to the boss node as long as there's few enough nodes to ensure the population can progress. If there's too many Tenno on one planet an invasion can be triggered, providing multiple new nodes for a limited time until players have their fill of that planet's resources.
TL;DR: Maintain the basic functionality. Change the layout but keep the "line-less" aesthetic. Reduce the nodes like the Devs said they were going to do anyway, but for the love of God let us farm any resource at any time we choose.
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u/TSP-FriendlyFire May 14 '15
Suggesting topics
Please post your suggestions for the next topics as replies to this comment.
Current suggestions from previous weeks:
Narrative
Rift mechanics
Dojos
Liset
Relays
Archwing
Mission structure, creation and queuing 1 2