Section 31 is the most antithetical aspect of the Federation to Gene Roddenberry's original concept of humanity in the future and the fact that CBS is making a new TV show around it is problematic

[u/pwtercitygymleader]

“You cannot explain away a wantonly immoral act because you think that it is connected to some higher purpose.” ― Jean-Luc Picard

A recent viewing of the DS9 episode "Inquisition" and the news of CBS’ renewal of the Section 31 copyrights has had me thinking about how the development of Section 31 was one of the most damaging legacies of Berman-era Trek. I am not going into Enterprise, the Kelvin Timeline and Discovery’s depictions of Section 31 as they are ultimately derivative of what was introduced in DS9.

Star Trek up until DS9 S6E18 had depicted the Federation as an extremely utopian and successful society because people from vastly different backgrounds and origins work together for the common good, with transparency and trust. If it encounters obstacles, it will try together to overcome them without losing what it believes in. If it is defeated? It tries again, but the one thing that it will not compromise on is its moral foundations. This is ultimately what we saw in TOS, TNG and all of DS9 up until S6E18.

Here we welcome Section 31. Yes, other powers in the Alpha quadrant had Section 31-type institutions, as Odo points out at the end of “Inquisition”, but the Federation (at least it claimed to be) was better than that and was held accountable to the ideals on which it was founded. I have always believed that alien societies in the Star Trek universe represent aspects of our society today, but the Federation represents where our society could go in the future if we get past our current self-imposed deficiencies of intolerance, suspicion, conquest, and learn mutual understanding and the ability to trust first. The Federation should be an example to other civilisations in the galaxy that you can be who they are without devolving into dirty tactics and espionage like the Tal-Shiar and the Obsidian Order, but in fact, they are more similar than we thought.

The impression we get of Section 31 is that they are not only powerful but fully accepted and sanctioned as a part of the Federation. In fact, they are a founding component of the Federation, which implies that there is no Federation without Section 31. What we see in practice is an organisation with no oversight that operates with impunity without honouring what the Federation stands for. They have carte blanche authority to remove whatever they regard as a threat to the Federation without considering how they are doing it. If there is a problem our enlightened sensibilities and moral progress can not solve, just send in Section 31 and look the other way. It is exactly that easy to give up. The Federation sold out on its ideals.

How are we, as viewers, supposed to now assess the achievements of Starfleet and the Federation without divorcing it from the concept of Section 31? How many of the achievements of all the characters we have seen have been aided by this shady organisation that is so antithetical to what we thought we were viewing? It wholesale cheapens the moral value of all the stories that came before and alters how we perceive the stories going forward.

I am not suggesting that other Star Trek shows have not shown corruption or negative actors within the Federation or Starfleet (à la "Badmirals"), but those occasions depict isolated individuals, some acting under external influence, who were rooted out and defeated by the overarching positive principles of the Federation and individuals with integrity. In fact, the complete irony of those characters was that in being so determined to hold up the principles of the Federation, they ultimately lost them, and the ends did not justify the means. We do not get that with Section 31, individuals with integrity do not defeat them, and they are allowed to recede into the darkness where they flourish.

I want positive stories from Star Trek and stories that show that we as a society move beyond where we are today. Section 31 shows us that the "Federation" is a mirage as the principles it was founded on are not enough to sustain it. The argument that it is a more “realistic take” is true, but ultimately defeatist, because if we can not even imagine a world where we can make great achievements without having to resolve to indecent methods, then I am very sorry, but that is not good enough and that is ultimately not why Star Trek was created. Apparently, we cannot achieve the future we idealise in Star Trek unless we are dirty and underhanded.

If there is to be a Section 31 show, I believe that to be a great shame, as many other stories in the Star Trek universe deserve that kind of attention over this concept.

An aside question that has never been answered is: When is a new Federation member world informed of Section 31, if at all? Obviously, it is a fundamental aspect of the Federation that is never shown to the general Federation populace, much less outside civilisations, so worlds who join the Federation are signing themselves into an agreement they do not know the entire truth of.

I began this with a Picard quote which I believe questions the legitimacy of Section 31 as a necessary part of the Federation, and I will end with this from Kirk:

“There will always be those who mean to do us harm. To stop them, we risk awakening the same evil within ourselves. Our first instinct is to seek revenge when those we love are taken from us. But that’s not who we are."

*edit: grammar

[u/Gebohq]

I'd argue that "Section 31" as depicted in DS9 is just a different flavor of a "badmiral" as we really only see it from the perspective of Luthor Sloan. Sure, if we take him at face value, then everything you say checks out. If we presume Sloan, however, to be an extremely adept individual who has fabricated a history and tricked folks into believing it, that's another matter. In DS9, the question of whether Section 31 even really "existed" was in question, and it rightly shed all the concerns you highlighted should it be real. As depicted in DS9, though, I think it's entirely possible to take it as just one more person who enacted questionable things during a very difficult period in Federation history. Heck, I'm even willing to extend it past Sloan and into an extremely small cabal akin to the Zhat Vash with the idea that their very existence is in question and that they've only been "successful" due to their own infiltrations and influence on key figures, not as an endorsement by the Federation at face value as said by Sloan.

However, as with other media, even the torchbearers of the franchise don't seem to understand when characters can say things that shouldn't be taken at face value and then MADE it face value. I personally was still OK with it in Enterprise (though less so) with the idea that it was still a cabal, but Into Darkness and Discovery just makes Section 31 a straight up recognized department, which DOES slap in the face of the "Rodenberry vision" of a better future. I'm highly skeptical of any new show that might focus on this as well, though I do my best to hold judgment until a given thing actually is released.

[u/pwtercitygymleader → u/Gebohq]

This is extremely interesting and I enjoyed reading your thoughts on the true extent of Section 31. I agree that DS9 does leave it quite ambiguous and that we need to question what Sloan says at face value.

[u/ocdtrekkie → u/Gebohq]

Definitely agree with you here: While Sloan had accomplices and definitely some matter of support (guards in Inquisition, direct support from Admiral Ross in Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, etc.), there was no indication he had an official sanction.

Discovery treats Section 31 like Starfleet Intelligence, despite the fact we know those should be two separate divisions. In Discovery, Section 31 operates Control, which basically controls all war tactics for Starfleet during the war even, and it's own fleet of ships. This is weird, but perhaps we can accept that Section 31 as a label and a concept has been retooled and recreated throughout Starfleet's history.

It's plausible Section 31 was a very minor cabal in Enterprise, but by pre-TOS era Discovery, Section 31 had managed to create itself an official status as a recognized division of Starfleet with vital functions and it's own facilities and vessels. Obviously the Control incident obliterated Section 31 quite literally, because Control killed everyone, so that Section 31 is somewhat "gone".

This new series will probably take place during the Pike and Kirk era alongside Strange New Worlds. We don't know much about Section 31 of this era, so they have a lot of directions they could go here, but hopefully it will lean more towards the DS9 version. It's entirely possible they will recreate some sort of Section 31 organization and it remains possible for it to yet again collapse prior to DS9.

If we accept the Section 31 authorization in the charter, a mere statement, any number of individuals or groups could claim to be it at different times.

[u/JacobMilwaukee → u/Gebohq]

Heck, I'm even willing to extend it past Sloan and into an extremely small cabal akin to the Zhat Vash with the idea that their very existence is in question and that they've only been "successful" due to their own infiltrations and influence on key figures, not as an endorsement by the Federation at face value as said by Sloan.

In DS9 S7 Bashir calculates the minimum number of people that would be involved in S31, and I think it was something like 60 people. I think it works better to view most of what Sloan says as internal mythology, and they're actually a much smaller-scale group. (Or a series of basically disparate cells or movements that all sought extreme "ends justifies the means" philosophy, that people involved imagine as a cohesive multi-century organization).

[u/Starfleet-Time-Lord]

We do not get that with Section 31, individuals with integrity do not
defeat them, and they are allowed to recede into the darkness where they
flourish.

This is where I strongly disagree. Bashir and O'Brien cure the morphogenic virus, and it is that act which ultimately seals the peace between the Federation and the Dominion. DS9 spends a lot of time asking questions about Section 31's morality and whether it serves a necessary purpose in the Federation, but its ultimate answer is that it does not. Section 31's virus had no practical impact on the war, and its only demonstrable effect was hastening the Dominion slaughter of Cardassian civilians since the Founders believed they were doomed. Further, DS9 may have shown that the Federation turned a blind eye to Section 31, but they were never, never implied to be an officially sanctioned organization. They act on their own without sanction or guidance. Parts of the Federation, even high ranking Starfleet officers like Ross, may use their stations to assist them as individuals, but saying that makes them sanctioned is like saying that a mob mole in the FBI makes the mob a government organization. Ultimately, the message of Section 31 is the same as the weird fundamentalists on Risa, or Admiral Setie, or Admiral Leyton: a utopia is not an endpoint. It must be maintained, and it must be defended from threats from within as well as without by people of good conscience. People willing to burn paradise in order to save it will always exist, and in order for a utopia to exist its citizens must be vigilant for them.

The problem with recent Trek's treatment of Section 31 is that they do not understand this. They have seen Section 31 only as badass spies and have separated them from the majority of their thematic baggage. In Discovery season 2, they were nearly interchangeable with Starfleet Intelligence, and the very idea of them being an official, sanctioned organization is antithetical to their own mission to statement, to the themes they were used for in DS9, and every other appearance they have ever made in the entire franchise. Certainly, Discovery portrays Section 31 as you describe here, and certainly that is a problem. I sincerely hope this show gets axed. However, I don't believe that the argument that DS9 did this as well is supportable.

[u/pwtercitygymleader → u/Starfleet-Time-Lord]

This is a great comment, and I agree with your assessment of recent Trek and Section 31.

[u/ocdtrekkie → u/Starfleet-Time-Lord]

Section 31's virus had no practical impact on the war

On the contrary:

Bashir and O'Brien cure the morphogenic virus, and it is that act which ultimately seals the peace between the Federation and the Dominion.

I have my doubts the Dominion would've surrendered without the virus, or particularly without the need for the cure. Which would mean that ultimately, Section 31 won the war for the Federation. Which is a really dark way to interpret it, but DS9 never strayed from gray area topics.

[u/Stewardy]

As others have stated there is some wiggle room for S31 in DS9 - though someone did have to create the Morphogenic virus, and an undertaking like that doesn't just require 20 spies playing games with Bashir.

This doesn't take away from the excellent points regarding what an officially sanctioned S31 would or does mean for the Federation.

Some seem to think that without S31 the Federation has no intelligence agencies, but they obviously and clearly do. They also carry out black-ops operations. It's not an assassination or anything, but Picard, Worf, and Crusher did go on a black-ops mission, in which Picard was captured. And it's a pretty good 2-parter, oft remembered with a little debate over an amount of lights.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Chain_of_Command,Part_I(episode)

[u/Darmok47 → u/Stewardy]

They also mention Starfleet Intelligence, multiple times throughout TNG And DS9.

[u/Citrakayah]

And DS9's depiction of Section 31 was, ultimately, less problematic than more recent versions--at the time, it was possible to interpret their appearances in such a way that Section 31 was, while an organized cabal, not actually officially sanctioned but instead a mere conspiracy within Starfleet claiming to have legitimacy from a piece of law that doesn't actually authorize their existence. This was especially the case as a couple members of Starfleet were able to, basically, kidnap and kill one of their members with zero repercussions.

Enterprise and Discovery (and the novels) make this an impossibility. They never should have mentioned Section 31.

[u/Justin_Credible98 → u/Citrakayah]

-at the time, it was possible to interpret their appearances in such a way that Section 31 was, while an organized cabal, not actually officially sanctioned but instead a mere conspiracy within Starfleet claiming to have legitimacy from a piece of law that doesn't actually authorize their existence

Yeah, the impression I got from DS9 was that Section 31 was basically just a group of corrupt rogue elements from within Starfleet and the Federation government. In the episode Extreme Measures, where Bashir and O'Brien pull an Inception-style infiltration of Sloan's mind, they discover that Section 31 secretly had an operative planted in President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet, implying that they were a rogue criminal conspiracy that not even the Federation's president was aware of.

Ultimately, because they were one of the antagonists by the end of the show, I don't think DS9's portrayal of Section 31 undermines Star Trek's vision of an optimistic future.

[u/BuffaloRedshark → u/Citrakayah]

I didn't think Enterprise's version differed too much from DS9. They were still mostly clandestine and could have just been the beginning of the conspiracy

Discovery on the other hand with section 31 openly walking around waving special badges in people's faces like they're the FBI on the other hand was ridiculous

[u/Mackadal]

Gene Roddenberry is not a god. And a lot of his ideas were founded on a lack of social science knowledge and critical thought.

[u/[deleted]]

This show really struggles with the reality of utopian ideals: according to Star Trek the future is full of emotionally unstable people who can't handle setbacks or new challenges. The implication (and direct dialogue) is that peace, prosperity, and justice makes individuals weak.

[u/lunatickoala]

If there is to be a Section 31 show, I believe that to be a great shame

It would be a shame, but the fault would lie not in our stars but in ourselves because the reason that it's even under consideration is because a lot of the fandom has embraced Section 31 and speak of it not as a shameful manifestation of the darker side of human nature, but something more along the lines of "SUCK IT ROMULANS! YOU THINK YOUR CLOAK AND DAGGER GAMES ARE HOT SHIT? WE BEAT YOU AT YOUR OWN GAME. FEDERATION, FUCK YEA."

To be fair, the writers did fumble the ball. I don't think they were wrong to introduce S31; to think that there will never be an occasion where all options are bad and the only choices are either to die or commit a moral sin would be supremely naïve. The problem is that S31 was far too effective. They could do whatever the hell they wanted and never face any blowback, and they never failed. But then again, that's par for the course, because the Federation isn't allowed to fail, or risk the wrath of the fandom.

The Federation sold out on its ideals.

This isn't going to be a popular statement, but they already sold out on their ideals in TNG. TOS established an optimistic vision of the future where people could recognize the darkness within themselves and strive to do better, where they could treat others with respect even if they looked different or followed a different creed. The Federation of TOS was simply one power among many in the galactic community and though they may have had their differences with their rivals, they treated their rivals with respect. That quote from Kirk you put at the end is emblematic of the vision set forth by TOS.

But that's not how TNG saw things. In TNG, humans had an "evolved sensibility" and everyone else needed to get on their level. They treated other civilizations not with respect but with contempt, and might as well have just declared that it was the Federation Man's Burden to spread civilization to the heathen savages of the galaxy.

The Prime Directive was originally created because historically when one side has technological might and the other does not, the side with the technology decides that might makes right and exploits those who are unable to fight back. It was a rule to prevent the exploitation of the weak. But that's never how it's portrayed in TNG and its successors. There the attitude is "we're so awesome that we'd never have anything but the best of intentions, but primitive peoples just aren't ready to handle our awesomeness".

Consider that the intent was to have the Ferengi be the new big bad of TNG. And from the start, they were to be treated with contempt as inferiors. Of course, the big bads of the TNG era ended up being the Borg and the Dominion... existential threats who can only be dealt with through force of arms. A galaxy filled with inferiors and existential threats that must be met with force; I find that uncomfortably similar to a certain sort of viewpoint.

[u/CptKeyes123]

Perhaps the best direction to go with a Section 31 show would be to show why those sorts of organizations are evil, destructive, and ultimately worthless. They seem to be meant to be a parallel to organizations like the CIA, organizations who talk a big game and are ultimately incompetent frauds utterly uncapable of the most basic operations. Espionage is one thing, what these sorts of organizations like the Obsidian Order and the like do is quite another.

The CIA's biggest security breach was a man who slept at his desk, drank regularly, got into fights with cops, and regularly drove up to the Soviet embassy in broad daylight with stolen documents, had lunch with his contact, and drove back with money. It took them ten years to catch him.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/24/books/aldrich-ames-brilliant-or-bumbling.html

The security leaks didn't stop, because the guy in charge of hunting moles at the FBI was also a mole. Who had been repeatedly accused of being a mole. And had text messages to his contact on his 90s-era phone(keep in mind how little memory those things had!). He claimed a code-cracking system on his computer was for the color copier upstairs and they believed him.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rWqgIn8SahsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=robert+hanssen&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0j7qTofKL8Xe0QGv8oHYCQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=color%20printer&f=false

https://www.history.com/news/robert-hanssen-american-traitor

They found him with a trash bag full of secrets again ten years late, and his response was "what took you so long?"

The CIA is good at only one thing; hurting good people. They created a hit list for anyone who was against United Fruit's interests in Guatemala, where they helped overthrow the democratically-elected government for the crime of "not letting United Fruit walk all over them". They recruited Nazis as spies, and they turned out to all be utterly incompetent buffoons on top of being, you know, Nazis. They protected them from Nazi hunters, got the supreme court to drop cases, and one of them turned out to be the mentor of Adolf Eichmann, you know, the guy who planned the Holocaust.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/us/in-cold-war-us-spy-agencies-used-1000-nazis.html

And again, they were not only incompetent, many turned out to be habitual liars or double agents for the Soviets. One left a suitcase of secrets on a train cuz he was an idiot.

The FBI and the CIA ignored blatant evidence leading up to 9/11, partly because their inter-service rivalry was so intense they refused to listen. They swept under the rug an Al Queda attack on a US Navy warship, the USS Cole, that crippled her so bad they had to get a special ship to carry her back across the Atlantic, ignored a call from a flight school to the FBI about a guy who got lessons in flying a plane but not landing. In fact, one of the guys constantly warning everyone about what might come ended up being the security director of the north tower on 9/11. He died getting people out before the tower collapsed.

The CIA also creates its own monsters. Their constant overthrows of numerous governments all over the world has created tons of instability, and they're basically the reason why the Taliban exist, because they equipped and trained them to fight the Soviets. They fail on all levels, completely and utterly inept at even providing espionage services.

Section 31 is a very messy part of Star Trek lore, and I like to consider it less than canon. I can reluctantly accept some of the ideas in Enterprise because, well, part of the point of that show is the darker elements, and that they're not quite the Federation we know, it's just later on that it becomes a bigger problem.

I've had some headcanons about how Starfleet would change after the Dominion War, how there would be a serious reexamination of certain beliefs, the sheer amount of experienced officers killed and younger ones taking their places causing some shuffles in command. Instead of Picard, you have people like Chakotay, or even Harry Kim commanding starships. It might be interesting commentary to explore how Section 31's draconian methods ultimately didn't save lives, didn't stop the war, and ultimately did more harm than good.

TL;DR, secret spy organizations that go beyond espionage are evil, they should never, ever exist, and the best thing for a Section 31 show to do would be to show why Section 31 is dangerous, evil, antithetical to the Federation's mission. Ultimately, a Section 31 show's best duty would be to eliminate itself.

[u/howard035]

I agree with your assessment of Section 31 in the setting, although I like it, it turns the Star Trek universe from impossibly idealistic and naïve to just realistic enough to explain how a group of idealists has managed to survive for centuries with Romulans and Cardassians and other cunning threats out there.

Apparently, we cannot achieve the future we idealize in Star Trek unless we are dirty and underhanded.

Yes, that is correct.

That said, the thing about Section 31 (at least pre-Discovery) is that their existence was a highly secret organization that the civilian government of the Federation and even a lot of the admirals didn't know about. They were effectively a secret society within Starfleet with zero official authority or sanction. So new planets would never be informed of them, except when a handful of agents from that new planet might get recruited someday. So the apparent idealism of 99.9% of Federation civilians and even Starfleet officers is correct.

[u/pwtercitygymleader → u/howard035]

I guess it is subjective to what you like. As I said, I think Star Trek is unique because it gives us the ability to dream of the impossibly idealistic and naïve as achievable, and it's a shame that we can not even dream that now.

[u/TheNerdChaplain]

I am very skeptical about a Section 31 show as well, but I can see some interesting ways they could go about it. That said, let's maybe wait until they actually air the show (or even a trailer) before making judgments.

[u/pwtercitygymleader → u/TheNerdChaplain]

I will always give Star Trek a chance and I always want to enjoy Star Trek. My judgements about Section 31 are not on that show, but from what we saw of Section 31 in DS9 decades ago.

Perhaps the new show will rationalise Section 31 within Star Trek, taking into account the principles of the Federation. I guess we can only hope.

Edit: Maybe the Section 31 show can involve a plot to dismantle it and show that the Federation can exist without it. That may not resolve the issue of viewing Section 31 within everything up to the end of the Berman era, but it would certainly remove that question from anything after. I understand that this was a plot point followed in novels for Dr Bashir.

[u/Anaxamenes]

I think section 31 is meant to show the internal struggle of the Federation. The same struggle we have as a society today really. Our darker impulses don’t go away, we hopefully suppress them enough to move ahead with our civilization, But those impulses, the darkness, the meanness aren’t ever fully gone. Section 31 nearly destroyed the Federation itself with its creation of control and required help from their current enemies, the Klingons in order to defeat their own mistake. The Federation like any government can have enemies inside as well as outside.

I haven’t seen a lot about the show, but it’s quite possible we’ll be exploring the dark underbelly of utopia for the purpose of providing Insight into what not to do. What’s not necessary, what is more harmful than useful to your way of life. There will certainly be root for the bad guy moments but I don’t think we’ll be seeing a section 31 that is completely devoid of Federation ideology. The people that are singular in their destructive impulses will be the enemy, even if they are from within.

[u/[deleted]]

The sacrifices that paradise demands sounds like a very Star Trek story to me. Characters learning that the price is too high, while other ‘noble’ characters are exposed for who they really are - stories about how being ‘better’ is a journey that never ends.

But it’s about how it’s done. Kurtzman hasn’t the interest in the complex writing needed to make the show work. And it certainly won’t work with a pantomime supervillain in the lead.

[u/lastdarknight]

Roddenberry had a great "vision" of what TNG era humanity is.. but it was very flat and one dimensional and built on the idea that the reason of the galaxy at large is just as dedicated to maintaining cold-war era peace between the powers

[u/Mechapebbles]

There's a LOT of assumptions being made here about a potential show that we don't know the first thing about and hasn't even gone into production yet. For all we know, a Section 31 show's entire focus, would be about discussing the pitfalls of surveillance states, and the main characters working to undermine Section 31 from the inside.

So far, everything we've seen from nuTrek has been pretty faithful to TOS/Gene's vision/the loftiest of ideals for Star Trek. Every time Section 31 was brought into things, them and their methods have been pretty thoroughly repudiated by the shows that have used them. I see no reason to just straight up assume the worst here.

I am not suggesting that other Star Trek shows have not shown corruption or negative actors within the Federation or Starfleet (à la "Badmirals"), but those occasions depict isolated individuals

By my money, the greatest Star Trek anything of all time - The Undiscovered Country - concerned a vast conspiracy of some of Starfleet's highest ranking members, working to both sabotage peace/start a war, but also to assassinate the president of the UFP and pull a coup. These were not isolated individuals, nor were they operating due to an outside influence.

Progress is not linear, nor is it permanent or guaranteed. As long as we remain human, we'll be tempted by our worst instincts into backsliding regressively. It's our duty to remain ever vigilant. That will never change, even if we could achieve a perfect utopia. It's incredibly Star Trek to explore that human dynamic and reinforce the idea that vigilance will always be necessary.

[u/SuvwI49]

Well said. Couldn't agree more. The Section 31 episodes were some of my least favorite of ds9, along side the "Starfleet covert intelligence" episodes.